Bilingual signs
This letter has not been edited.
The mother and family go to an ENGLISH speaking church.(???)
Posted by A on May 31, 2007 02:13 PMDont worry, NOTHING will be done about your concerns ever regarding this.
Posted by Fresh on May 31, 2007 02:41 PMSorry this letter is premature. Today is the day for hating Islam. Tomorrow is the day for hating Mexicans. Please forgive the inconvenience.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 03:08 PMNice job using the tragic death of a two-year old boy to trot out your xenophobic rhetoric Beth.
Posted by Charles B on May 31, 2007 03:26 PMTalk about hate, both Charles B and 3:08 hate America first!!!! True Americans share the country we don't hand it over like you want to do.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 04:22 PMWell, Charles, I agree that while her use of the story about the little boy was in poor taste, I have to basically agree with her.
I live in Brighton, and I noticed a while back that a sign at a construction site warning would-be vandals and thieves that the property was being watched by the police was not bilingual, as most other city signs are. I called the city to inquire about this apparent oversight, and was informed, "we ain't gonna go there". I found this to be another example of politically correct doublespeak. If you wanna have bilingual signage, let's go whole hog.
I don't find Beth's post either xenophbic or rhetorical, and I'm wondering why you seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to any kind of commentary that asks questions like Beth's does.
Shane,
"I'm wondering why you seem to have a knee-jerk reaction to any kind of commentary that asks questions like Beth's does."
I don't.
The issue of signs is just a numbers game. If there are enough Spanish speaking people in the area for it to be useful, then put up a sign in Spanish.
It's not the all or nothing choice that you and Beth make it out to be; silly absolutes like if they put up signs in Spanish, then they should do it for all native languages. There simply aren't enough of those populations to make it worth-while.
Denver has a large Mexican immigrant population and it makes sense for them to understand the rules, regardless of how and why they are here.
The whole "English only" debate is a rhetorical construct couched in a false premise of absolutes. it's a way to sound reasonable while venting your apprehensions about the large influx of Mexican immigrants.
Have you ever been to Europe and witnessed the amazing co-habitation of language that exists? More languages is good, not bad.
Ask yourselves: Do you think the Spanish language sign is worthwhile if it saves another two-year old innocent from a similar death?
If you want to effectively end illegal immigration (which I favor) then start enforcing the laws against employing them. Treat the cause and not the symptoms, because the symptoms in this case are just people like you and me. They're doing their best to get along, in whatever language they happen to speak.
OK, Charles.
I personally worked with a woman who married an illegal immigrant, this is not speculation, they both willingly admitted it. He got a job at the University Hospital where a LEGAL relative is in charge of the hiring in that department, he used another relative's LEGAL work permit to get through the screening process. When they married, he used the same document to get permission from the Mexican Consulate. Technically she is married to the other guy but that's another issue.
So, how would this illegal be found out? He has successfully learned how to play the system and the employer (supposedly) has no idea.
This is happening all over this country, don't even try to argue that with your "just the facts, ma'am" retoric. NOW what is your solution????? Anderson? Got an opinion?
Nice red herring there, J. Perhaps you should try addressing what Charles B was speaking about first. I believe he clearly stated his opinions on what needs to be done about immigration.
Chas B--I have noticed that when one goes abroad, it is not at all uncommon for signs to be in a few languages. A good number of countries also teach their children English in school (Poland, Croatia, Serbia--just to name a few). Imagine that--having mastery of more than one language. Those crazy Europeans!
Posted by Me on May 31, 2007 06:30 PM
When I lived in Germany for 18 months, I had the RESPECT for the people and their culture to learn enough German to get by daily. I never was conversational, still aren't, but I had RESPECT enough to do that in a few months.
Why is it we have people living here for YEARS who fail to RESPECT America and
her citizens enough to learn a little English?
Seems every Asian restaurant I go to has people who speak with very thick accents in ENGLISH.
Hmmmmmmmm.....I must be a bigot, right anderson?....."truth"?
Charles B, you didn't even mention the sign warning vandals away in Brighton
that was only in English, why is that? Why that sign not in Spanish as well?
Well?
Posted by RickyLee on May 31, 2007 07:18 PMIn Europe they mostly use symbols and not written signs. In the eastern block every kid had to learn Russian, but a lot of them refused and barely passed grade. Now in those same countries they teach English, but not mandatory, makes a big difference when something is not force on you. Also Europeans learn more languages because the close proximity to each other and tourism. Illegals flooding the US have nothing to do with tourism, and do not deserve the courtesy of multi-language signs.
When you say “Imagine that--having mastery of more than one language. Those crazy Europeans!”, I assume you talking about the spanish speaking population in the US who, even after several years being here are incapable of learning English.
You what they say about assuming Uno? Well, you're presenting a classic case of being an arse.
Traffic signs are indeed international symbols. Easy for everyone to understand. Other signs, not so much.
You certainly weren't allowed to "refuse" to do anything in an Eastern block country. English isn't mandatory, huh? Whatever...
And, I guess we shouldn't have signs at DIA or at the ski resorts in different languages since there might be illegals reading them?
Finally, I was speaking of arrogant Americans and their xenophobic fear of learning another language aside from English.
No question that when you are in another country other than your native one that you should learn the language--it makes life much easier. However, I don't believe that one should be forced to speak one language at the expense of your native tongue.
Posted by Me on May 31, 2007 08:01 PMANON 8:01 writes:
"I don't believe that one should be forced to speak one language at the expense of your native tongue"
Since when does showing RESPECT for Americans by learning a bit of English come
at "the expense of your native tongue"?
So, these people shouldn't be expected to learn English because it'll make them forget their native language!?!
Pull your head out.
Posted by RickyLee on May 31, 2007 08:21 PMANON 8:01 writes:
"I don't believe that one should be forced to speak one language at the expense of your native tongue"
Since when does showing RESPECT for Americans by learning a bit of English come
at "the expense of your native tongue"?
So, these people shouldn't be expected to learn English because it'll make them forget their native language!?!
Pull your head out.
Posted by RickyLee on May 31, 2007 08:22 PMPost 8:01, if you lack the intelligence to comprehend what people saying, that why bother replying? Who was talking about signs at DIA or traffic signs? Why are there spanish signs at Best Buy, Lowe’s (a big tourist attraction) the court house, DMV and countless others? How you dare call Americans arrogant, when it is American taxpayers constantly bailing out foreign nations for they own stupidity, including Mexico. Why is it that one of the youngest nations on earth has to constantly help out countries, and whole continents like Africa, who’s population and culture goes back thousands of years. Just what learning another language by Americans has to do with anything? Why don’t you go to Germany and demand that they learn Turkish and see how popular you’ll become with the local boys.
Posted by Uno on May 31, 2007 09:00 PMRickyLee, if someone’s brain can only hold so much in limited amount like post 8:01 than learning an additional language would come at an “expense”.
Posted by Uno on May 31, 2007 09:06 PMCharles B says you are trotting out xenophobic rhetoric Beth.
Perhaps Beth has a fear of LOSING her own culture to the AZTLAN motives of the invading illegals and not a fear of the Hispanic culture persay.
Charles B, you're way too idealistic for this country's own good. Once the U.S. is hopelessly mired in all the problems that the illegals are fleeing from, i.e. extreme poverty, drug cartels, an even more corrupt gov't than we currently have, just to name a few, we'll have the Anderson's and truth's and Charles B's to thank. Oh yeah, I forgot that we'll also have to thank the current Administration as well.
Do you realize that you're in agreement with the George W on this one.
Sorry Charles B, but Beth has a valid point. Are you aware that Denver has one of the largest (if not the largest) Russian immigrant communities in the US, not to mention large Asian communities, and Hungarian communites (which by the way is why there is a "Hungarian Park" & used to be a Hungarian language radio station). I have yet to see a sign with Cyrillic letters here, and the only place one will see signs in an Asian language is in the Asian stores on Federal. ALL these folks have managed to assimilate and learn English, often at their own expense, within a generation. I understand when someone relatively new to the country needs an interpreter (watch the interviews of some of the Asian athletes), but when an article points out that someone who has lived & worked here for OVER A DECADE needs an interpreter, it makes me angry - and 99 times out of 100, that person is from south of the border, and is frequently a self-confessed illegal. Meanwhile, most statistics indicate that the average illegal is barely literate in their native language - so what' the point of putting up signs in that language - other than catering to the vocal Hispanic community?
Posted by Mary on June 1, 2007 05:36 AMcharles b ,
"Denver has a large Mexican immigrant population and it makes sense for them to understand the rules, regardless of how and why they are here."
i think you meant "illegal immigrants" lets not be politically correct here it also ruined the country
Posted by hoimaha on June 1, 2007 05:37 AMskeptical asked,
"Do you realize that you're in agreement with the George W on this one?"
Wrong. I think the bill is useless. I favor GWB doing his job and enforcing laws against employers of illegal aliens, which is the only cost-effective and humanitarian way to solve the problem. I also favor more draconian measures against employers. Problem is GWB's Justice Department has other priorities, such as working to get Republicans elected...
Posted by Charles B on June 1, 2007 07:52 AMMary,
"Are you aware that Denver has one of the largest (if not the largest) Russian immigrant communities in the US, not to mention large Asian communities, and Hungarian communites..."
Do a statistical analysis and you will see that the numbers pale in comparison to the number of Mexican immigrants. Think about it in relative terms.
Posted by Charles B on June 1, 2007 07:56 AMThat's outrageous that the signs would be in Spanish as well as English. It's disgusting how we are accomodating those who are too stupid and lazy to learn English. Maybe the taggers will "fix" those signs!
Posted by Nature Boy on June 1, 2007 09:29 AMMary--Have you ever been to a real big city--say NYC or Chicago?
The number of Russian's in Denver (both #'s and population %) pale in comparision to either of those places. And, if you had, you would most certainly see signs in both Russian (or Polish or Hungarian) and English in the neighborhoods where they are live.
Immigrants have always, always tended to live together and keep some of the things that are firmilar to them--language, food, customs, religion. That's human nature.
Is assimilation a good thing? Most certainly! That's what it takes to get ahead, to make a better life. But, not everyone does it at the same rate or is smart enough to understand it is in their best interest.
Unless you're Irish, chances are your ancestors didn't get off the boat speaking English. Probably took a generation or two to be fully "americanized".
Posted by Hmmm on June 1, 2007 09:59 AMCharles,
Read back through your responses to my and other's posts.
I agree with you about the enforcement starting with sanctioning employers who hire illegals. However, meaningful border enforcement should also be implemented. This isn't the days of migrant workers crossing the border at harvest time, it is a flood of thousands of people daily, and we have got to get a handle on that.
The multi-language signage is a necessity in Europe because of those countries close proximity to each other, and of course that's a benefit. But you wanna know what the primary language that air-traffic control, technical and engineering professionals use in Europe? That's right, English. It's necessary to have a common language, a lingua franca, if you will, to facilitate critical understanding in precise and unambiguous terms. I see nothing wrong with insisting that same standard be applied here.
It may be a simple numbers game dictating the amount of bilingual signage, but it obviously goes way beyond that when some signs are bilingual, and others are not, based on political correctness. I took exception to my city's use of bilingual signage EXCEPT when it might imply that a non-English speaker could a thief or vandal.
You ask Mary to think about the problem in relevant terms. Well, how relevant is it that there are sometimes ten or twelve handicapped parking spaces out in front of a Wal-Mart when maybe one or two are being used at any given time? There is an accomodation being made there for a segment of the population that needs it, rightly in this case, but is the actual number of spaces correct for the percentage of handicapped people in a given community?
I think the immigrant population is being accomodated by being provided bilingual signage. Some of it is most necessary and right, but the vast majority of it is simply convenience, and removes the necessity of learning English, our lingua franca.
It isn't xenophbia or racism to insist that people who want to live in this country learn our common language, English.
Posted by Shane on June 1, 2007 10:13 AMI want to correct a few of spelling/syntax errors in that last post:
First sentence should have an "I" at the beginning.
"could" and "a" should have a "be" in between them.
"xenophbia" should be "xenophobia".
In the pursuit of more precise and accurate commentary, LOL!
Very Strange: They pray that the baby will be found and returned alive; God returns a dead baby and they give thanks. You'd think an omniscient Real Estate Broker could have returned a live baby. Since he could have and didn't, shouldn't they, the afflicted, curse such a monster?
I'll learn the Jesus Christ curse that can cause a fig tree to shrivel up and die and kill that ol' (fill in the blank) for you.
Posted by Richard Grimes Risen Ape, Deicide (not Deicede) r22037@yahoo.com on June 1, 2007 10:31 AMRickyLee....The illegals have no RESPECT for themselves let alone America!!
Mexico is a very dishonorable country and her border-hopping citizens are just as dishonorable.
Not only are the Mexican illegals to stupid to learn English they don't have any motivation or desire to learn English. Un-American Companies that hire these illegal ingrates just add fuel to the fire by providing them with every tool NOT to speak English.
George Bush, John McCain, Ted Kennedy have included La Raza and many pro-illegal groups in drafting this amnesty bill. We have got to make every attempt to stop this whack-o "grand compromise" from passing..... keep calling, writing,faxing you're representatives!!
Speak up loud and clear. Tell them NO AMNESTY, NO PATHWAY to citizenship NO MORE HANDOUTS!!
Have patiance Colorado, soon English will be the language added below on signs, press 1 on your phone for English. This is how it is now in Calmexico.
Posted by JW on June 1, 2007 11:08 AMShane,
I never disagreed with you on your point about political correctness and signs warning against criminal activity, but your argument only supports my position that the signs are a desirable thing. The other possibility is that you were using a rhetorical trick by arguing absolutes (upon which I previously expounded) because you really don't favor multi-lingual signs at all. I'd be interested to know which is true.
You said:
"The multi-language signage is a necessity in Europe because of those countries close proximity to each other, and of course that's a benefit."
Correct, just like here- English and Spanish speaking communities in close proximity.
"But you wanna know what the primary language that air-traffic control, technical and engineering professionals use in Europe? That's right, English."
Right, just like here. Are you saying that those professions and positions in the USA don't use English?
I think we pretty much agree Shane, except on the point about xenophobia. Xenophobia can exist without the knowledge of the person whom it afflicts. I even think it's understandable to a point- it's usually a question of ignorance- but that doesn't mean I won't point it out when I see it.
I never called you or the letter writer a racist, which is quite a different thing. I could point to some of that on these threads if I cared too, but I prefer to talk to people who are willing to keep an open mind...
Posted by Charles B on June 1, 2007 12:45 PMIf it was a Russian only speaking person that had her child swept away in the flood waters, Do you think there would be a huge outcry for signs posted in Russian also? I bet not!
Maybe we need to have a lawsuit against Denver demanding all signs in all the major languages. What a sight that would be, billboards for any construction zone, park rules, etc.
Posted by Elwood on June 1, 2007 01:32 PMElwood,
"Maybe we need to have a lawsuit against Denver demanding all signs in all the major languages."
What a waste of time and effort.
Posted by Charles B on June 1, 2007 04:11 PMOut from under a rock creeps the apeman, aka deicide, ready at a moment's notice to lash out at the God Whom he will face one day. No letter writer's message is too far removed from being relevant to his ranting, no poster's reference is too obscure in realtion to his task to deter him from his self appointed duty of defending his own Darwinian altar. Carry on apeman, we wait patiently for your next swing at the elusive fear within you.
Posted by skeptical on June 1, 2007 06:47 PMXenophobia: “an unreasonable fear or hatred of foreigners or strangers or of that which is foreign or strange”. So if people disagree or disapprove of something they automatically “fear and hate”? I guess according to liberals no one should voice they concern about illegals shooting cops, kidnap young girls, kill on the road while driving drunk, drag woman behind pickup truck, overburden the healthcare, educational and legal system, like there wasn’t enough problems already without these invaders.
Posted by Uno on June 1, 2007 08:24 PMCharles:
Europe: countries, not "communities".
Xenophobia without being aware of it?
Come on. Not in my case, anyway.
While you didn't specifically accuse me of racism, that is a charge that is typically levelled at those who insist that immigrants make some effort to learn English, and assimilate somewhat into the general milieu of this country. Obviously, some of those who post on this blog are very racist, but I ain't one of 'em.
As to the signage thing, I think I made it clear that some amount of bi-/multi-lingual is OK, even necessary. It just needs to be applied in a more logical, less politically correct fashion, in my view.
Posted by Shane on June 2, 2007 02:07 AMSolution: 1. Bush's assassination of Saddam is complete: Mission accomplished; declare victory and get out. 2. Assign the troops to the border(s); don't create anymore immigration laws; let them stay without amnesty and repeal the 1984 law granting free medical; deport the criminals (those already incarcerated); deny those staying American citizen rights just as Mexico denies Americans Mexican rights. Enforce the border.
You can be a Risen Christ; I won't object; I'll be a Risen Ape; you don't object. You can believe in nonsense on stilts; I can believe in Mother Nature. America will need her troops to protect against natural catastrophe. Thank you Mother for your attack on Mother Cabrini Shrine.
Posted by Richard Grimes Risen Ape: Deicide: r22037@yahoo on June 2, 2007 10:26 AMRichard
Why do you feel compelled to bash Jesus Christ?
skeptical, this is for a different forum but you asked so here is my thoghts and my reasoning
because like most of the Christian we atheist, pagans, and other forms of unitarians have a right to speak out for what we believe in, i know that there are good Christians out there , my grandmother being one of them , and me being atheist , and my parents are pagan , most of the time with religion aside we all share the same views on life in general as a world populous, unfortunately there are bad apples in all groups and walks of life, for instance jerry Falwell and pat Robertson ruined it for me and the people who are so naive to believe that the earth is just a mere 6000 years old, i worked in a museum with the paleo department for several years , and creationist come to the Denver museum and chant their beliefs on creationism, in other places like Lubbock Texas (hometown) there are more churches than grocery stores and schools combined the mayor has prayer circles with city council and close down lingerie shops and don't sell liqueur in city limits cause they say it is un godly , isn't that everything against separation of church and state????? sure sounds like it to me since they are all baptist on city council, they broke up a pagan wedding 6 months ago and held a prayer circle to try and have god forgive them for getting married, what a sick bunch of fuklers i must say ..
on the other side there are people who go to far with atheism and request that crosses be taken down for memorials, i think that is going to far in deed . and then there are fundamentalist in every religion, race creed, belief, and politics too ,
i try to be a good person and treat everyone with respect or treat them as i would want to be treated
kindness goes along way sometimes
i don't believe in prayer in school because school is for learning math science, english, history ( World and American ) reading, and sports, not a place for prayer and worship, there are places called church for that. and it sure as hell does not belong in politics, there fore the Chatholic church and all the other churches should stay out of the illegal alien debate until they start paying taxes like every one else .
there that is my best guess.....
Posted by hoimaha on June 2, 2007 03:09 PM"fuklers"--that's funny! Can I use that?
Posted by Me on June 2, 2007 05:54 PMYo Skeptical: I bash all gods except mine: Mother Nature. If that makes me a Pagan so be it. I prefer "Risen Ape" having risen above ape status to become a deicide. Do you believe Allah turns Jews into monkeys and creates virgins without menses, stools or urine?
The furtive Anderson says "We are laughing at you" because I attach Peter Boyles sentiment. Anderson and the rat in his pocket or a tapeworm elsewhere says "We." Therefore, he and his two friends are laughing; however, it is no laughing matter, to wit:
June 3, Denver Post staff writer affirms Boyles says: More than half of Colorado's drug resistant TB cases occurred in people who were born in countries where the disease was not well-controlled: Vietnam, the Philippines, Mexico and Sudan.
The much castigated Anderson continues to distort taking the opposite ground from all the commenter on the subject matter: Illegal Immigration.
Cribbing a word from Sharon and Shaupeen: "Don't 'piss' on my neck and tell its raining,” which is a favorite pastime for Anderson.
While on the other side of the world, an Islamic group does what was dogma in the Mormon Church: Throats are cut from vein to vein by the swords of truth beheading female TV broadcasters, which is what Mitt Romney's Joe (Mormonism) Smith did and said that without him there was no salvation affirmed by Brigham Young. However, bending with the wind Mitt’s god is now the transmogrified Jew from the “loins of David,” or "Joseph the carpenter," or Angel Gabriel compulsion, or rape by the Holy Ghost, take your pick. See Ignorant Missionary: http://www.geocities.com/r22037/think.html
Beth McCane Hitler! You haters!!!!!! You haters. Some day will be your turn you will be judged. You have Family the world goes around.
Posted by on June 4, 2007 07:32 PM7.32 : you cant post a name how shameful , i at least use my real name so until you post your name you just a coward
Posted by Hoimaha on June 4, 2007 11:30 PM