Health care and health insurance
Where does Dorsey Hudson (Letters, 9/04) think illegal aliens go for their “free” healthcare? Why the same place President Bush brilliantly suggests anyone without insurance should: the emergency room! Our silver-spoon president (I stupidly voted twice for him) whose healthcare is guaranteed and fully-paid for life, is too distant from everyday folks’ to be bothered with how Americans meet our healthcare needs. Hence, his suggestion that we use ERs as doctor’s offices. And why not? Working Americans are, to this man, of less importance than the illegals he’s thrown our borders open to. We aren’t the stuffed Ralph Loren button-down shirts who’ll soon be forking over $3000 a plate to hear him speak, after all.
Lots of Americans can’t afford medical insurance, but since they are here legally, will not be treated for “free” at an emergency room. So, many put off medical care until a condition really —is — an emergency. By then, the condition costs far more to treat, and since hospitals and clinics cannot get paid by the illegal aliens they treat, they eagerly hound ill, but legal American patients into bankruptcy to collect on high and rising medical bills they simply can’t pay.
And why —should — Bush care? His bills are paid, and so are those of the illegals he wants to see flooding this country—paid by the same people who can’t afford medical care themselves.
This letter has not been edited.
> Our silver-spoon president (I stupidly voted twice for him)
Truly, your stupidity is beyond any doubt.
Posted by on September 12, 2007 02:44 PMThe illegal immigrant situation in this country
is so out of control I don't know if we'll ever get control of it with the pea brains we have leading this country.
The American people should be shouting in the streets over the negligence of this government.
The health care mess is only a fraction of the chaos these illegal immigrants have caused.
Tempers are flaring....
Posted by c on September 12, 2007 03:32 PMSo your answer is more government in our lives and more taxes to pay for all the healthcare for illegals and the Dems will definitely open the borders. If you think Dems have the answer you are crazy. The Republicans are at least trying to figure out a way without raising taxes and the majority of them want the borders closed.
Posted by on September 12, 2007 03:46 PMWhile I do agree that Bush is a pea brain for his stance on illegal immigration, let us not be deluded into thinking Gore or Kerry would have solved the immigration problem had they been elected.
Unless you consider opening the flood gates a solution.
Posted by KW on September 12, 2007 03:58 PMKW-
Not a fan of either Gore or Kerry. Pretty much losing faith in all politicians.
Posted by c on September 12, 2007 04:20 PMThe GOP in Congress has opened the floodgates (by reducing funding for INS/ICE and not enforcing any kind of meaningful fines on illegal EMPLOYERS) to illegals because they benefit businesses (big & small) - the Dems in Congress open floodgates because they are suckers for a sob story. I am fed up with the business lie that "they can't be competitive" or illegals do "work that Americans won't do (at what the businesses are willing to pay without benefits)".
Why is the US the only country which CHOOSES not to support its legal workforce? EU recently decided that they have an illegal immigration problem (roughly 500,000/per year) - and they are going after businesses/individuals with high fines & jail time - can you imagine either party doing that?
In addition - for you folks out there who are so hot for privatized health care, what makes you think that any insurance company, whose 'mission statement' is to make a profit, is a more reasonable way to go than a single payer system? Hospitals/clinics charge everyone who needs medical care there rates based on covering those who are uninsured. Are you absolutely certain you can have everything done at the doctor's office to avoid that? And - if it is such a Tom T. Terrific idea, why does the US spend AT LEAST DOUBLE its GDP on healthcare than those countries which have some form of universal healthcare only to have a worse outcome (higher infant mortality rates than everyone but Latvia & lower life expectancy)?
Yes - illegals are part of the problem - but so are the working poor (who, by the way are poorer because of illegals driving the base wage down) who most frequently either have no access to medical insurance or who simply cannot afford it, rent, food, utilities, etc - and are betting that paying for the basics (food, rent, utilities) will keep them healthier than spending half their check on health insurance.
If you want to see Congress fix the problem we need to come up with a way to say that Congress gets no better benefits than the average citizens who votes in an election (that includes both healthcare & retirement benefits - wouldn't you like full healthcare for life & the whatever the current pay for your position is for life?). I suspect the minute that happened, both would be fixed - even at the cost of pork barrel projects.
Posted by Mary on September 12, 2007 04:24 PMMary - Bush has INCREASED funding for ICE, added Nat'l Guard troops, etc... so that partisan talking point doesn't fly.
The dems don't want to reduce the number either. Remember, didn't they just have a pres debate in spanish? Who do you think they're courting with that.
As I stated earlier, Bush's stance on illegal immigration is totally wrong. But to claim the reps are more in favor of open borders than the dem controlled congress is inane.
Posted by KW on September 12, 2007 04:36 PMKW
"Bush has INCREASED funding for ICE," while true, he also transferred 1,000 agents from enforcement to customs without further explanation.
One of the few articles to be found in the media:
http://www.washingtontimes.com/article/20070829/NATION/108290080/1001
Posted by darfor on September 12, 2007 04:46 PMThanks for the link darfor. I wasn't aware of this.
Any thoughts on why this occured?
It seems extremely counter productive after the increased border security as well as increased ICE officers.
Are they expecting something in customs these 100 agents will be needed for?
Posted by KW on September 12, 2007 05:47 PMKW
My suspicious nature tells me that while mouthing strong crackdowns on illegals in order to make amends with the public on behalf of the Republican Party (which took many broadsides when he was pushing for amnesty), he's going to put in place factors that will cause the crackdowns to fail. Instead of a smooth, efficient execution it will be a disjointed and sporadic effort that will result in chaotic conditions in both fulfilling the stated goals, and in the workplace.
Legal as well as illegals will be rounded up and detained in concentrated areas rather than nationwide. The displacement caused in business, and the outcry over legals being detained falsely, while allow him to throw up his hands and say that it can't be done. He tried, but since finding it impossible, we have to fall back to a "new" way to make these people legal while "keeping additional" illegals from entering the country.
In other words (and much shorter), he's back dooring a new amnesty attempt.
Posted by darfor on September 12, 2007 06:22 PM$2.5 BILLION dollars a year is spent on Medicaide for illegal aliens. (source) http://cisorg/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html
Posted by TwoElks on September 12, 2007 10:23 PMMary,
"for you folks out there who are so hot for privatized health care, what makes you think that any insurance company, whose 'mission statement' is to make a profit, is a more reasonable way to go than a single payer system?
Simple answer: The profit motive in that mission statement. Add in the fact that ordinary people are the ones who will then determine which insurance company they will use and which plans. The insurance companies will have the incentive of profit to make people choose and remain with that company. Insurance and other companies make their greatest profit on repeat or continuing customers. There is a cost associated with all new customers and if a company gets loyal, repeat customers, or those who renew quickly, the company makes a higher profit. As with any company the more customers they have the more profit they have so there will be a movement to attract customers. Worst part of it is that the junk mail and irritating insurance commercials will increase. Expect ESurance to make one with a noisy ambulance and that annoyingly perky "Barbie Doll" character..
"Hospitals/clinics charge everyone who needs medical care their rates based on covering those who are uninsured. Are you absolutely certain you can have everything done at the doctor's office to avoid that? "
Socialized medicine cheerleaders clearly state as fact the proposition that people will get more preventive care if the government pays for all health care. Personally, I disagree because studies done in both the United States and Canada show that, even with free access to health care via Canadian socialized medicine or insurance, a flat percentage don't go to the doctor unless they are reduced to crawling. We all know someone, usually male, just like that. Pneumonia is a cold, a sprained ankle is a bruise, needs an ace, a nasty cut just needs some iodine and a bandage, glasses "aren't necessary until I fail the DMV eye test" and the classic, "I thought it was just a sprain. It sure didn't look broken last Friday."
More local clinics with low charges or a "voucher card" system similar to food stamps would permit the poor to obtain ongoing care at a reasonable cost. The working poor also need hours for clinics that permit long hours workers access to a clinic on the weekends and evenings. It's a guess, but one from experience, that the working poor often have to choose between a day's pay and a visit to the doctor. This doubles the cost. (It is a choice I used to make and my husband makes right now. Since we have Kaiser he usually will go to the after hours clinic on Friday or Saturday where he only pays an extra twenty dollars (50 dollars total) which eliminates the 100 dollar ER fee if they send him to the hospital. After 5 heart attacks I no longer have any option to wait if I want to be around anywhere much longer.) Hospitals and doctors charge higher prices because of the delays and cost involved in collecting from their customers. With insurance companies the waits are normally shorter than the governments stated 90+ days. The only way to survive in this climate is to raise the prices to cover the costs of the delays and the people necessary to file the paperwork. We can propose many different solutions but the best one is a method that gives doctors a payment quickly. The "voucher card" system would permit the poor to compete with privately insured people by also creating a situation where the immediate payment would cut costs and permit rates to go down. This would only happen if there were also in place a system where individuals paid attention to the costs. That problem needs more than my poor plans to cover everyone but a start would be a system with a set amount of money on each card and anyone may obtain a card but will have to make a co-pay with each use. For Ted Kennedy and Rush Limbaugh the per-use charge, paid to the state or company providing the card, would be 10K, for people making over 150K the co-pay would be 500 dollars, for those between 75K and 150K the co-pay would be 50 dollars and for the rest a sliding scale, based both on income and chronic conditions, like juvenile diabetes, between 5 dollars and 50 dollars. There must always be a payment involved to bring about awareness of costs. Insurance for catastrophic conditions would be legally available. Insurance companies would receive governmental or tax "brownie points" for insuring those with pre-existing conditions or chronic ones. Fraud investigators would be increased so that very public and very quick arrests and convictions for cheating the system would get major press and be a deterrent.
"And - if it is such a Tom T. Terrific idea, why does the US spend AT LEAST DOUBLE its GDP on healthcare than those countries which have some form of universal healthcare only to have a worse outcome (higher infant mortality rates than everyone but Latvia & lower life expectancy)?"
The diverse nature of the people of the United States create a much more confusing health picture than the more homogenized European and other cultures. Genetically, white people suffer far more from skin cancer than do darker skinned races. Blacks have high blood pressure more often and the conditions that arise from it. Americans with Nordic ancestors tend to have more problems with heart conditions and some forms of leukemia. Those from dry climates have higher rates of alcoholism with the attendant ill health effects. Anglo (England, Scotland and some French) Americans suffer far more stomach and bowel problems and cancers and also have a higher rate of Parkinson's and Alzheimers. This means we treat a lot more, different conditions and the health care professionals have to be prepared to care for all of them. Add to this the ridiculous tort system that encourages lawyers to advertise for clients on TV. See the one advertising for people to call if their child has Cerebral Palsy? It's a good bet for the lawyer. Kids make sympathetic victims and it doesn't really matter if the doctor did anything wrong because he is forced to prove he did everything he could have done, everything he might have done, anything he might have thought about doing and everything possible in the right order, at the right time and in the right place during the entire pregnancy and delivery. Any failing, whether real or perceived, will permit the lawyer to get a high dollar settlement/judgment and take half (or more) of it for his services. Reform this system with a few changes like loser pays, a tight cap on lawyer fees. (I suggest tying it to not more than 25 percent of the actual damages and NO payments for expenses or lifetime earnings.) Pain and suffering capped at some flat amount which the lawyer will get no part of will help. Lastly, punitive damage awards are to go to the state to pay the costs of health care for the poor. Punitive damages are fines to punish bad behavior. If you are in a car accident and the other driver is at fault and gets a big fine, how much do you get of that fine? Nothing! Punitive damages should be dealt with this way. Those changes will run off the slimeys, or most of them at least.
That is part of why we have such a difference. We also pay a much smaller portion of our income in taxes. To make a real comparison add health care costs and taxes together then compare. Also compare the levels of care. Castro loved his "free" system so much he flew in Spanish surgeons to take care of him when he was sick. Guess he knew something the experts have yet to learn.
You might also check to see just how those ratings are made and how such records are kept in the different countries. The ratings system is like an unmarked stick you are given and told it is one meter long. You get a different stick for each place and before long the numbers don't add up. Using a standard system to measure things with standard conditions applies makes the our "score" much higher. Some countries have very different systems to measure infant mortality and other recorded benchmarks.
WE also have a problem because the government and insurance companies have changed the system from one covering major events and illnesses to one covering everything from ingrown toenails to brain tumors with little or no difference in costs to the patient. This creates an attitude among people that it only costs the co-pay or is free if they have government plans or insurance. You wouldn't take your pet to a vet without calling to make certain you have enough money to pay the bill. Why should going to your doctor mean you don't have to know the cost? Again, the solution will take a long time because we have to change the government plans into plans where the individuals make choices and decisions based on costs before the general public will have a chance to have such changes in their lives. HSA accounts will help many and should be made available.
We do have the greatest health care in the world and the delivery system and the financial system are broken. Most of the break was caused by the government so we don't want them to be in charge of any part of medical care when this is solved.
Finally the problem with illegals and the ERs can be helped by a system where fingerprints are taken from anyone who cannot provide a valid ID proving they are legal citizens or residents. Those who fail to pay or give false information will be caught the next time they attempt to use the ER and can be deported as soon as the doctor is done. We will need to pass a state law allowing the state to enforce federal laws on immigration. We then transport them to the southern border of Mexico or the center of their country of origin with the warning that if they are caught in Colorado again, and are in the United States illegally, they will be tried for that crime which will carry a state penalty of not less than six months in prison. Won't cure everything and some will say I'm heartless. Probably true as I only have 12% (up from 10% hooray!) efficiency in my heart. It is true that you feed your own family first. You feed the deserving poor or neighbors next, but you need not feed criminals or thieves who threaten to steal the food from you because you call them to account for their crimes. Illegal immigrants have stolen jobs and more from legal immigrants by making it harder for those following the law to make progress in their lives. They steal money from citizens by scamming the system to get welfare and other benefits. My neighbor turned in a co-worker who bragged that his wife and daughter were both getting full benefits from AFDC and Food Stamps and some other program as well in three counties under three different names with three false addresses that forward to the same PO Box. The complaint was made complete with the man's name and the names and addresses used to get the benefits. So far the guy is still working with Miguel and not complaining. Miguel is furious because it took his father almost 20 years to enter legally and his father made him learn English in the home before he started school even though his mother and father had trouble with the language for years. He learned Spanish too but he remembers his father listening to the TV news and having Miguel translate it for him. Miguel showed me a big framed picture he got when his father died. It is the citizenship ceremony. His father is in the center of the picture with tears running down his cheeks and a smile that almost shocks you because it is so full of joy. Miguel also had me call ICE and report that six men on the crew with Miguel were illegal. ICE is still out there someplace, (probably complaining that our jails aren't safe enough for illegals) but they never did anything even though the project was for the State of Colorado.
Punishing employers who hire illegals, shutting down the flow of state benefits to illegals and making it too hard to get that money to send home will eliminate some problems also. Most important, for health care purposes we must be able to provide an ER system that permits care but keeps legal consequences in play for those who fail to pay.
the simple solution for all the illigals who steal free health care is to require them to smoke and the taxes they pay will at least pay for their kids insurance. remember smokers are taxed to pay for kids insurance
Posted by on September 13, 2007 07:10 AMSocialized medicine is bad at it's best. Our government can't run our government and now some want them to get into the health business? You gotta' be kiddin' me. I for one don't want the bureaucrats taking care of my health concerns, no way Jose (pun intended) Terry
Posted by Gofastgo on September 13, 2007 08:27 AMMary, The Office of Homeland Security drafted thousands of letters that were going to be sent to employers warning them if they didn't check every SS# and I.D's of their employees they were going to be facing stiff fines.
The ACLU went to the looney far-leftwing nutjob court of San Francisco and got a judge to stop the letters from going out.
Everytime the government tries to enforce the laws they are sued by the ACLU. Towns and cities are being sued. The ACLU is instrumental in stopping the authorities of this country from enforcing the laws that are on the books .
They are suing to stop the fence. They are suing so the government cannot enforce workplace fraud. They are suing to protect illegals so they can use your SS# if they want.
They are suing to protect illegals rights and take away citizen rights and disregard the laws of our country.
Everytime the government tries to do something about illegals the ACLU is right there ready to sue.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 13, 2007 08:36 AMHow about a class-action (The class being the American people) lawsuit vs. the ACLU for representing everybody but the American people? The ACLU needs to be shut down before they do irreparable harm to this country .
Posted by Bumpskier on September 13, 2007 09:05 AMBumpskier-
Great idea, where do we start?
Posted by c on September 13, 2007 08:20 PMMomma said "The profit motive in that mission statement"
So whould you say that police, military, judges, and spies would perform better if privatized than serving out of a sense of duty?
Does a mercenary tend to be better than somebody fighting out of a sense of duty?
Posted by Bango Skank on September 14, 2007 12:15 AMOkay, Mary converted me. I am now a card carrying supporter of a single payer system. We need to take the profit out of the health industry. While we are at it, we need to nationalize the oil compnay as we all need oil and its unfair that companies make a profit.
And food, we all need food. All farms and supermarkets should be nationalized. We all need computers, so that would have to go as well. Who can forget cars! We all need cars, so that should be nationalized as well.
Wow, I am truly converted, we can just rename the US to CCCP and all live unhappily ever after.
Watch 20/20 tonight at 9.p.m. to see John Stossel interview Michael Moore and debunk his claims in Sicko.
Just a preview:
It takes about 17 weeks to get an appointment with a specialist in Canada and Great Britains health care systems. Is that what you want to go through to have health insurance?
I don't ,leave my for profit health care alone!
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 14, 2007 10:30 AMMs.Amen, you do understand that Thatcher gutted the NHS, and Blair forced bizarre concepts of productivity into the NHS, right?
The productivity goals were so artificial and self-defeating that to avoid losing funding, hospitals started taking wheels off gurrneys and calling them beds,and reclassifying passageways as wards – all so they would not have funding to actual medicine and equipment supplies being cut.
This all as a result of measurement techniques devised by one of Reagan’s big followers.
By the way, your figures are off - That is by no means the typical wait.
I assume you wanted to make it sound like a critical patient is forced to wait?