Joining Boy Scouts of America
The Boy Scouts of America (BSA) recently set up shop in my son’s school cafeteria during lunchtime, hoping to recruit new members from this captive audience. I had just one question for the Scouts: “Does BSA still discriminate against gays and atheists?” To my surprise I received a sheepish nod of the head and a “Yes, but it doesn’t really come up.” These prejudices are in fact built into their own Oath and Law. The young applicant is required to acknowledge “God” and be faithful in his religious duties, and to live a “morally straight", “clean” life. Any child who rejects these requirements of conformity and obedience will not be allowed to join.
How does BSA get away with promoting their patriotic brand of ignorance and bigotry in our public schools? They are allowed to do so by school administrators. The PTO (Parent Teacher Organization) voluntarily signs their charter and in doing so agrees to operate under BSA guidelines, not school policy. Receiving no legal protection from BSA, the PTO leaders may find themselves in court when BSA inevitably commits its next violation.
PTOs that sponsor a troop are therefore encouraged to be indemnified, incorporated, fully bonded and insured.
BSA is more than just camping, folding flags and tying knots; it’s a private religious organization that bars homosexuals and atheists from joining their ranks. With the barrage of oaths, laws, secret code words, handbooks, handshakes, cult-like ceremonies, mottos, slogans, salutes, ranks, uniforms and the watered-down basic training, one might logically question if it is too much for a 7-year-old, social injustice aside. By arrogantly practicing discrimination and systematically violating the unspoken rules of human decency, any good deed BSA performs becomes null and void. It’s like the serial killer who works tirelessly in the soup kitchen. It fails to impress.
This letter has not been edited.
The Boy Scouts are probably the best organization available for young boys these days. Would you rather have NAMBLA set up shop in your school to recruit boys into their group for a rollicking good time?
Posted by Jay on September 19, 2007 02:03 PMJay
You can't be serious now can you???
Posted by GK on September 19, 2007 02:08 PMI think GK just got excited over Jay's comment. Bet he is renewing his NAMBLA subscription now
Posted by on September 19, 2007 02:11 PMKelley is a perfect example why this country no longer has any morals. The left want everything no matter how wrong it is to be acceptable. The BSA has helped a lot more people then these far left anti American teachers in our public schools that have much more of a captive audience. Give me a break!
Posted by on September 19, 2007 02:57 PMMaybe that is exactly why Boy Scouts does succeed so well at helping shape very fine young gentlemen.....they do not change their basic premise to please society’s political whims.
I’ve met many Eagle Scouts. Each and every time I do I am impressed with how they conduct themselves and hope that my son is as successful in traversing his teenage years as these fine young men.
I think the boy scouts only exist to facilitate huge homosexual orgies in the woods. That's why republicans love the scouts so much - bet 'ol Senator Craig was an enthusiastic boy scout! nudge,nudge, wink,wink.
Posted by Baden Powell on September 19, 2007 03:12 PMKelley,
My God (pun intended)! I was in the Boy Scouts in my youth and even made it to Eagle (Bully for me!). Therefore, you can imagine the alarm with which I read your last paragraph. I never realized I was a member of a nefarious hate group, what with our "cult-like ceremonies" and other evil cabal activities. Oh, the horror!
Seriously, this letter borders on camp. In my day Boy Scouts was maybe thought of as being a little nerdy by my non-member peers. Now they're being compared to serial killers!? You can't be serious.
As for your accusation, Boy Scouts is a youth organization and therefore, largely unconcerned with a child's sexuality. During my entire time in the Scouts, that issue never came up - just like the scout you reference said.
You are obviously a troublemaker, and the way your account is written, it sounds like you really put that scout on the spot, what with his "sheepish nod." Seriously, do you feel big after verbally besting a little kid?
I've never used language this strong on these boards, but you, sir/mam, are an idiot.
Posted by Jeff on September 19, 2007 03:12 PMOh shut up! This country has no morals. For crying out loud, we have UCMJ-felon occupying the Oval Office, who is guilty of exterminating Arabs in a Hitler fashion. Hooray! Dan Rather appears to be the only American with any backbone. He is suing CBS, because they fired him for his Bush investigation (AWOL-deserter). The chain-gang is leaving the station. A Cellmate for Nacchio, Jefferson, Cunningham, Abramoff, Nye, etc.
Posted by draftdodgingisntafamilyvalue on September 19, 2007 03:14 PMGK, yes, I am serious about the quality of the Boy Scouts organization. No, I was kidding about NAmBLA.
Maybe if the jerk, punk-@ss teenagers in my neighborhood had joined the Boy Scouts, they wouldn't be out vandalizing, spraying graffiti, and trying to intimidate the families in our area with threats of violence.
I'm feeling a bit conflicted with these postings. I participated in Boy Scouts as well as earned my "1st Class" standing (I left Boy Scouts prior to pursuing Eagle Scout) . . . I am also gay. I thought my experience in the Boy Scouts was a very enriching and positive experience. The boy Scouts organization is far from perfect, but it is even further from being compared to a "cult." It is unfortunate how the organization has become politicized (and "religious-ized" . . . pardon me while I make up a word). While my troop did run out of my church, the brotherhood, adventures, challenges and personal responsibility were more of a focus than God ever was. It is also unfortunate that the BSA has fallen into the "radical right" trap that "gay" equals "bad role model" or even worse "NAMBLA supporting child molester." The BSA should be a place for all boys to learn the wonders of the outdoors as well as discipline and a sense of personal-responsibility.
Posted by Eagle Scout on September 19, 2007 03:39 PMJay. Unless the "punks" in your neighborhood are tagging your house with pink paint, breaking into your house in order to wear your wife's heels, or throwing 2 a.m. Sex and the City parties in the middle of your street, how does a kid who identifies as "gay" hurt the Boy Scouts or impact the safety of your neighborhood? One has absolutely nothing to do with the other.
Posted by GrowUpJay on September 19, 2007 03:55 PMHey Jeff! Kinda some strong language. I don't know what Boy Scouts you have been talking to, but MANY of the adult post-Boy Scouts I have met over my lifetime have reported that the Boy Scouts was actually where they experienced some of their first sexual experiences. Even those who identify as "straight" have told me that their early adolescent years were filled with some experimentation IN the Boy Scouts. To say sexuality does not come up is a pretty big generalization . . . and I would bet . . . VERY off the mark.
Posted by GrowUpJeff on September 19, 2007 04:08 PMWhat a load of left wing ,assinine, hate mongering, nonhacking, athiest &*^s.
I for one am just a little fed up with your "lets degrade and lie and distort the truth" on things. Your attacks on the Boy Scouts is just a little to much. Whats the matter, couldn't you guys make it past second class? OOOPS guess not.
To say that BSA promoites secret societies, closet homosexuality, among other absurdities is ludicris. Why are you not picking on the girl scouts? Are you afraid to say that they promote lesbianism? Or that certain cermonies they may have are secret and hold ultraright wing conspiracies to take over the world.
I call you all out. You are plain and simply jelous of the fine young men who improve thier lives by learning skills, and gain knowledge with thier experiances.
To achieve the rank and award of Eagle is by far no small matter. It takes fortitude, intelligence, and leadership. Thats right leadership, a quality many on the left think they have but fall short of.
The skill to plan and see through thier Eagle project without help from others in the overseeing of this, is applaus worthy. The man hours involved are staggering.
The secret societies you claim are not secret at all. The order of the Arrow is individuals who are elected by thier piers is an acknowledgment of these boys skill and dedication to achieving goals and being goal oriented. The Order of the Arrow is an honorary sub group of outstanding fellowship. These members are often the ones who are sought out to help plan and run scouting events, like camporees, klondike derbies, and jamborees.
As stated by Eagle Scout earlier, this right wing religous indoctrination DOES NOT EXISIT.
To the S.O.B. who sighned Baden Powell (who by the way was the founder of the Boy Scouts. In England, refered to as young scouts). I say what you have said is not only slanderous, but offensive. You on the left like to describe things in hate speach form. Well his comment drips of the vile hatred this person has for anything that may be conscrewed as decent and wholesome.
Support your local scout troop today
Posted by Respecting the Scouts on September 19, 2007 04:47 PMIf they didn't have a policy of discriminating against gays the Boy Scouts would get my support. Unfortunately it's the adults that are making the policy and the kids are the ones paying for it.
Posted by GK on September 19, 2007 04:55 PMGet a grip, Kelley. Scouting is optional. Your son does not have to sign up. Perhaps you can form your own atheist scouting troop to provide an alternative for parents who feel as you do.
Posted by karen on September 19, 2007 05:07 PMGK - The only ones trying to extract anything from the BSA are people like you.
The only time the kids suffer is when others decide they don't like the policies and try to change them.
This is a private organization and if you don't agree with their policies then don't get involved. There's no need to denigrate them.
Perhaps try some of that "tolerence" we always here the left claiming the right doesn't have.
KW
That policy wasn't in effect until people like you stuck their noses into it and made the policy therefore hurting what the Boy Scouts were originally and are suppose to be about.
Posted by GK on September 19, 2007 05:27 PMThe Boy Scouts are similar to White Power organizations. You must pledge allegiance to this God and only this God. You must adhere to a strict code of intolerance.
Posted by JAshcroft on September 19, 2007 05:31 PMI loved the boy scouts and still do!!
Posted by Mark Foley on September 19, 2007 05:40 PMMs. Coffman Lee
The BSA does not discriminate against people who who are gay. They just set a standard of behavior for adults who will be role models that precludes immoral sexual behavior. You may disagree with their beliefs, but they are entitled to their opinions which are religiously based.
The BSA attempts to set a minimum religious standard for the boys. It is a religious organization. It is not for atheists. It is also not for senior citizens, girls, ex-cons, taxi-drivers or senators. It is for boys.
This discussion reminds me of Alcoholics Anonymous. One of their 12 steps required of everyone is to acknowledge that there is a higher power. Is that discrimination against atheists?
Finally, the tools that the BSA uses to create positive group dynamics and positive behaviors have been uses productively for decades. They are not for everyone but nothing is. You clearly have not educated yourself on what they are and how they work.
Comparing boy scouts to serial killers is over the top and you should apologize.
A similarly over the top argument could be made against you. Since a majority of the participants are non-Catholic Christians, I could compare you to the Inquisition which worked to eliminate disagreement. But the comparison is wrong. Just like your comparison was wrong.
If you don't like BSA or AA, start other organizations.
Posted by Yaakov Watkins on September 19, 2007 06:11 PMJAshcroft you demonstrate your ignorance. to compare and to say that the boys must pledge to this God and only this God is plain ignorant. if this were the case then why are boy scouts a world wide organization with troops in Africa, China, Russia, Europe, atin and South America? Clearly in countries who are not christian, ie India, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, even in Iran.
The next ignorant, well stupid because ignorance indicates a lack of knowledge. Your statement comparing scouts to white supremicist is just stupid. If this is the case then why are there Black, Yellow, and Brown scouts. American Indians who are in scouts. I do not believe white supremicist would accept these people into thier organization.
Once again the left rears its true bigoted head and tries desperately to defame something that is good.
Posted by Scouting enthusiast on September 19, 2007 07:16 PMRemember the old joke about one Boy Scout telling another, "Don't tell anyone, but some days I can't help feeling just a little untrustworthy, disloyal, unhelpful, unfriendly, discourteous, unkind, grumpy, wasteful, cowardly, dirty, and irreverent"?
Though the common apologia for BSA's discrimination being their history of Good Works smacks a little of "Give Hitler a break, at least he built the Autobahn," I have no particular bone to pick with the organization. (Presumably the Girl Scouts don't even enter into the discussion since they don't discriminate against gays and atheists, the hussies!)
What I wonder about is the carry-over into adult life, which frankly is the point. Has no former Boy Scout ever committed a crime, gotten a divorce, broken a Commandment, lied, cheated, stolen, mistreated a fellow human, or--to get right down to it--renounced his belief in God? (I don't say "turned gay" because your sexuality is not something you "become"; you either are or you're not. However, I'm willing to bet a number of Scouts do discover their homosexuality somewhere along the line.) Hopefully no one will waste our time with the "not perfect" cop-out. Since the issue here is the presumption of moral superiority brought about by the inculcation of "positive values," I'd like to know if there's anything on record about the percentage of Scouts who go on to lead exemplary lives as opposed to those who sink back to screwing up like the rest of us mere mortals. I don't mean Boy Scout propaganda: I'm interested in an unbiased report--assuming one actually exists, which I doubt--of every man who lives by his Scout principles his entire life that cannot be matched with a former Scout who is now a crack dealer or crooked politician or porn producer or unemployed drunken mess or some equally colorful character.
Posted by Hans Christian Brando on September 19, 2007 07:35 PMSo Hans you want to bring politics into this and know how many grow up to be liberals?
Posted by on September 19, 2007 08:01 PMWhat is really hilarious is that the Boy Scouts does discriminate against gays...
But look at them.. They wear little short shorts with matching shirts and color coordinated scarves to outdoor slumber parties where they earn patches that they sew on their sashes. .
Now THAT sounds pretty gay to me.
Posted by on September 19, 2007 08:53 PMI think this says it all “The young applicant is required to acknowledge “God” and be faithful in his religious duties, and to live a “morally straight", “clean” life.” – so, is there something wrong with living a morally straight clean life?
And something got my attention from previous post “I don't say "turned gay" because your sexuality is not something you "become"; you either are or you're not.” – so, by this logic we must accept people the way they are, regardless what that may be. Powerful argument. What that means is eventually anything deemed by science as “born with”, therefore supposedly beyond your control is constitutionally protected. At least that’s what the progressives tell us. It’s taking the “not my fault” lack of personal responsibility to a new level. It will be the “I was born like this” crowd, with the inherited genetic dispositions of alcoholics, drug addicts, pedophilia, kleptomania, psychosis and whatever else you can think of with new found civil rights to strive for.
Mr. Watkins...thank you for you very well written and thoughtful letter.
Posted by Golden on September 19, 2007 09:53 PMHey GrowUpGay! I never said anything about individuals and homosexuality. I said the Scouts are preferable in schools compared to NAMBLA, and I think the punks in my neighborhood wouldn't be such losers if they had something as positive as scouting when they were younger boys.
I never insinuated they were gay either, but the biggest trash talkers might be compensating. Maybe you and GK could start up your own version of scouting and exclude heterosexuals and Christians. Its a free country.
Hans, a good joke to start with, but a bunch of B.S. to finish with. If you are a homosexual, or want to hang with them, go ahead. But don't try to force yourself on people who don't agree with your choice of lifestyle.
Homosexuals always say that what they do in the bedroom is nobody elses business, then they proceed to make it the center of everything they are. Give me a break.
Uno, your 2nd paragraph sounds like it came from the Moveon.org members pledge.
Uno, you are right, we can say even now that people are born predisposed to addictions of all kinds.
It appears to be genetic, but we still arrest them if they break the laws, now don`t we?
Homosexuality can be just as morally clean as heterosexuality if no laws are broken, no one raped or taken underage.
Heterosexuality is not "clean". That sounds right out of the Bible where women were "unclean' after childbirth. And men were unclean for any number of reasons.
Get into the 21st century with the rest of us.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 19, 2007 10:02 PM"One of their 12 steps required of everyone is to acknowledge that there is a higher power. Is that discrimination against atheists?"
Posted by Yaakov Watkins on September 19, 2007 06:11 PM
Indeed it is:
Appellate court rules parolee cannot be forced into 12-Step treatment
americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=37344
Great posting here. After reading how Leftys believe everything vial and perverted is just A-OK. And normal for them. And their unbelievable faith in "What Ever". I would like to thank "GOD" for my father for getting me into the Boy Scouts.
Posted by FW on September 19, 2007 10:59 PMGreat posting here. After reading how Leftys believe everything vial and perverted is just A-OK. And normal for them. And their unbelievable faith in "What Ever". I would like to thank "GOD" for my father for getting me into the Boy Scouts.
Posted by FW on September 19, 2007 11:01 PMHey Sharon, if you want to take the Bible literally, are not women unclean after child birth. I mean isnt there a little bit of a mess there? Yes men are unclean with sweat, and toil. A little body odor from a honest days work. Mud under the fingure nails, ect.
Posted by Sharons a B on September 19, 2007 11:06 PMSharon, I think you missed my point, the homosexual act was illegal in some states till just recently.
“It appears to be genetic, but we still arrest them if they break the laws, now don’t we?” – right, but how long before we don’t anymore, and that was my point. What is unacceptable today will become acceptable tomorrow and the new civil rights day after. I you don’t believe me just look at the changes in the justice system, especially what should be the most unacceptable one, murder.
Interestingly, I understood “clean” as being crime free.
Uno, genetic or not we will always arrest drunk drivers . And rapists.
Murder is still illegal, criminal actions are punished.
The only behaviors that are becoming acceptable are between consenting adults.
Clean, as in "he has a clean record?"
I don`t think so, but nice try. Clean=hetero
unclean=homo to some people. All Biblical based.
The girl scouts take all girls, right? The boy scouts only take some boys. Or those that pretend to be "clean".
He who uses my name. In the Bible, women were unclean longer if they had a girl baby. Too funny, but also too stupid.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 19, 2007 11:34 PMOh the irony!
So there’s Lord Baden-Powell, lounging about on a Sunday afternoon, languidly applying lipstick and looking quite splendid in a pastel shade dress.
There is that vaguely odd link to the German “Wandervogel” crowd and mass woodland and riparian nakedness, with the faint hint of impropriety.
Finally, he gets embroiled in a little real-estate speculation requiring the eradication of a few tribesmen.
What a stunning role model.
simple answer to this .
don't like the boy scouts, dont join them or let your child join them. problem solved.
oh btw you all are still idiots
Posted by Fresh on September 20, 2007 03:58 AMUnfortunately in Jay's remark about NAMBLA, there might be a bit of truth.
In todays immoral society if NAMBLA wanted to have meetings in a school they probably could with the help of the good ole' ACLU.
The PC's out there would have no problem with it.All in the name of free speech,anything goes ,right?
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 20, 2007 07:40 AMFresh, thanks for the stale comment. Try reading the letter first. The complaint is about not joining, but having this quasi-religious and intolerant organization proselytizing in public schools. And if you want to respond, please look up "proselytizing" before you do.
Scouting enthusiast, if you want to make a point please read your post before posting it. Boy scouts are worldwide? So is christianity, because missionaries are worldwide. And so is the nazi party, because racists are worldwide. Just because a country is primarily "one religion" doesn't mean that pockets of another can't exist. Here's an example...the USA is primarily tolerant and moderately intelligent. You are part of the pocket that is intolerant and stupid.
If the BSA was truly "good" it would focus on fostering respect and love of the environment to ALL, based on the fact that it is good in and of itself. Not just to those that are straight because God made it.
Posted by JAshcroft on September 20, 2007 08:49 AMShe? Has a hyphenated last name. I don't need to read anymore of her letter after that.
Posted by Jerry on September 20, 2007 09:52 AMhow about all of you peter puffers and carpet crunchers start your own like minded group other than NAMBLA and you can then say who is allowed in. I am sure you would be able to go out and find thousands of 6-9 year olds who know they are gay and fit your mold. oh and dont for get the ones who love animals in a very special way either.
you could have barnie frank or if suggs from boston was still alive, for your national leader.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 09:53 AM9:53am stated,
"oh and dont for get the ones who love animals in a very special way either."
But, it seems to me that most of the barnyard lovers are right leaning , pencil dicked, perckerwoods who don't f**k their wives so they end up paying whores, banging sheep or trolling bathroom stalls lookin' for a good 'ole time.
JAshcroft. Tolerant. If people do not subscribe to your views, then you can be as rude and intolerant as you want to be? Good lesson. Lets hope you have a vasectomy. Show me where the BSA are racists? You brought it up Einstein.
Also the author is crying intolerance while being intolerant herself. Did the group not have to get permission to be on campus at school? I am betting yes. Was that specific group being actively rude or bigoted against homosexuals at that activity? I am betting NO.
You have a right to your opinion and most will defend you having that right to an opinion. Why are you so intolerant and bigoted to not allow others to have differing views within a legal boundary?
To me you and others are worse than the BSA as you provide nothing good going forward. While I disagree with some of the views of the BSA, they do more good than harm for the community. All I see you doing is condemning rather than dialogue for better understanding.
Ashcroft do you then disagree and condemn the ACLU for some of the things it does?
Go forth and say whatever you want, and I will defend your right to do so, just pointing out the hypocracy you and others put forth. Beautiful thing though....Freedom of speech. Should work both ways.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 11:16 AMJ-Mac. Where the fu*& do you think the "downlow" term came from my friend? Who the hell statistically are the homophobes here?
You want to lump everyone into buckets butthead? Well see how that sucks my friend?
Posted by on September 20, 2007 11:21 AMSo 6 to 9 year olds know they are gay. You had better believe they do. They may not have an adult name for themselves, but they know they are different.
I knew at 7 what I liked, Anon, what age were you, I assume you are a man, when you knew what you liked?
Speech is protected, actions are not. A group can promote anything until they actually break the law, then we get them.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 20, 2007 11:48 AM11:16 or should I say Einstein, is completely missing the point. I never said BSA were racists. I said they were similar to White Power organizations on 2 fronts, religious exclusivity and a strict code of intolerance. Read the post, Einstein.
And talk about hypocrisy....nice defense of religious and sexual intolerance because "they do more good than harm" for the community. Yes, adhering to a code that perpetuates religious and sexual intolerance is outweighed by learning how to build a fire with sticks. Good one, Einstein.
Your speech is free (except in the Boy Scouts of America), so say what you want, but please don't defend me. I don't want to be associated with you.
Posted by JAshcroft on September 20, 2007 11:56 AMSharon agree. What the BSA did in this instance does not look like anything illegal and the author of this letter used her intolerance to make a point on the intolerance of the BSA. Would really like to get her views of orgs like ACLU to see if she agrees with them 100%. If not does she rebuke them in the same fashion?
Posted by on September 20, 2007 11:58 AMIt's been interesting, and a little disgusting, reading some of the extravagant assertions put forth regarding the Boy Scouts. The majority of the posters are obviously not that involved personally in BSA, but rather, are commenting based on what they've been told.
I'm not going to waste my time trying to defend the BSA against blatant ignorance and prejudice. But one thing I will point is that of religion. I am from India (been here as a US citizen for the last 23 years) and practice the Hindu faith. I am a BSA Troop Leader of a troop comprised of approximately 50% Hindu, 25 - 30% Christian, with a few Jews and a couple of Muslim boys.
We learn together not just camping and hobby skills, but about each other. We as a group get along and explore life and diversity; acceptance and understanding, much better than the "adults" posting letters in this column.
Some of you "adults", including the original letter writer, should learn what true respect, tolerance and appreciation of different values and understanding of life is really all about.
Taji K.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 12:19 PMTaji:
What about gay people in your group? And your name doesn't sound Indain.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 12:51 PMWell said Taji, the boys learn about being better people through the Boy Scouts of America.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 01:00 PMGet off of your high horse Taji K. We know what the BSA is all about:
From CNN: "The Boy Scouts of America rejected his application for the adult leadership position and subsequently fired him. The Boy Scouts told him in writing that homosexuality was contrary to the organization's values. The Scout oath requires members to be "morally straight." The organization "takes the position that homosexual conduct is inconsistent with the Scout oath ... and contrary to the Scout Law to be 'clean' in word and deed." The Boy Scouts found out that Dale was gay after a newspaper article revealed that fact. Dale, as co-president of Rutgers University's Lesbian/Gay Alliance, gave a speech in July 1990, which was the subject of the article, and later that month, he received a dismissal letter from the Boy Scouts."
So....the moral of the story is, if your morals aren't consistent with the BSA morals, and you talk about it, you're out (in more ways than one). Not only is the BSA intolerant of sexuality, they are intolerant of 1st amendment rights.
Nice and "true respect, tolerance and appreciation of different values and understanding of life is really all about." But I can't blame you. You're following the code.
Posted by JAshcroft on September 20, 2007 01:01 PMIf gay people want to have their own boy scout organization let them create one of their own.
See how well that goes over.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 01:10 PMMy full first name is Tyagraja -- I go by Taji as it is easier to pronounce for most.
The age group of the boys that I work with are at the age where the are naturally curious about their individual sexuality. We do not explore that aspect of their life as it belongs at home with their parents. We do promote tolerance and respect of all people regardless of the traits they have or display. We do have one scout who has two mommies and the rest of the troop is aware of it from troop functions and don't seem to be bothered by it.
Mr. Ashcroft, you are going into the national politics of Scouting of which I'm not that familiar. While I do not agree with the stand of BSA in the quote you provided, I do support the effort at the local level to include all boys in activities designed to encourage productivity and positive work ethic rather than aimlessly watching TV or playing video games or hanging around in groups or gangs at malls.
I ask you Mr. Ashcroft, do we dismiss the scout I mentioned above with two mommies because he comes from a so called "unclean, unmoral" environment, or do we allow him to participate as any other normal red blooded American boy?
You throw out the good with the bad. Very narrow minded approach to life, I think.
And, yes, we follow the code because code is openness and respect for others with causing needless harm on the positive attributes of others from a narrow minded, prejudiced point of view.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 01:23 PMI apologize, my last sentence should read ..."withOUT causing needless harm on..."
Taji K
Posted by on September 20, 2007 01:30 PMI think the person on the high horse is the pseudonym JAshcroft; a name chosen to show contempt of a point of view other than their own.
The Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts do a lot of good in providing both constructive and productive activities, a good moral compass in learning right from wrong, based on honesty and integrity, not gay or straight, Christian or atheist , etc. As Taji K. pointed out, those are matters that belong within the responsibilities of the parents, not a youth organization.
The scout groups that my kids participated in were devoid of any proselytizing or advocation of any moral codes other than honesty and respect for others. I'm sure that there are groups, especially those sponsored or heavily influenced by church related groups that do go beyond what I would find acceptable. But you are free to move from one group to another if you're uncomfortable.
In an age where kids are looking for a sense of belonging and guidance, scouting offers an alternative to video games or aimless wandering. It's not for all, nor should it be offhandedly condemned for all.
Posted by darfor on September 20, 2007 01:50 PMJAshcroft. Take your own advice dude and read the post. You specifically mentioned RACIST. And where did I ever say that the BSA is completely good? Where Einstein? Your hypocracy stinks up the place because of your partisan views. You limit yourself and show your true colors. Dont patronize us with your BS.
So do you condemn the entirety of ACLU? Dont be a chickensh&^ and answer the question.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 02:32 PMIn the interest of being open and objective, I am a lifelong scouter and Christian, and I have just one question for all of those who dislike, hate, and denigrate the BSA. Where else in this country have Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Shintos, and even atheists ever been able to come together at the table of brotherhood as in the scouts?
As far as the cries of "intolerance" are concerned, where have the scouts done anything wrong? Is it not up to an individual organization to chose the values and ideals that the group wishes to uphold and promote? Why are we obligated to embrace a system that we do not agree with? Isn't personal and corporate freedom one of the founding principles of this country?
The fact is that modern 21st century liberal thinking is inherently coercive. They accuse the scouts of proselytizing and holding their audience captive, yet take a look at almost any college or university. Anyone remember the free speech codes at UC Berkely? or the prohibition on the gathering of religous groups publicly at the Univeristy of Illonios?
In the end, the BSA is one of the best organizations at giving boys and young men an education and set of experiences that they wouldn't otherwise get, and produces some of the most responsible citizens our society has. If you have a problem with an organization that teaches the value of courtesy, fidelity, strength, honor, courage and leadership, then you have seriously warped view of reality and need to rethink your life.
Posted by Pittman on September 20, 2007 02:49 PMPittman
Nobody is disagreeing with anything you say except for that "rule" that discriminates. That is not what the scouts are or should be about. It's the adults that have created this intolerence, not the scouts
Posted by GK on September 20, 2007 03:06 PMGK
I think you'll find that most, and I emphasize most -- not all, local scout groups march to their own drum. They reflect the typical local neighborhood "middle class values" which generally does not include addressing sexual orientation, church affiliation (or lack thereof) or any other areas of political and social controversy.
Rather, they work on providing organized fun, social interaction and instilling basic values of honesty, integrity and a sense of accomplishment in the youth.
Posted by darfor on September 20, 2007 03:18 PMFrom our letter writer..."the barrage of oaths, laws, secret code words, handbooks, handshakes, cult-like ceremonies, mottos, slogans, salutes, ranks, uniforms and the watered-down basic training..."
You'd better get your tin foil helmet. Go to the store and buy a copy of this super secret handbook jammed packed with secret code words, etc... The ceremonies are copies of old American Indian ceremonies to celebrate accomplishments; not swearing allegiance to some insidious cult.
My husband is a troop leader and has many kids from families who are atheist. When they repeat a "super secret" motto or pledge that has the word God in it, they don't speak it. This was arranged by the parent's request when they joined their kid up.
The idea is for the kids to learn and have fun, keep them doing something positive rather than sit on their butts and learn to whine like you concerning things you know nothing about.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 03:30 PMThis letter writer sounds a lot like our own condescending arbiter of truth, judgment, discernment and acceptability -- Ms Haughty-tauty Sheila. Is it her in real life...only the Shadow knows...
Posted by on September 20, 2007 03:44 PM2:32, now known as Einstein, take a course in reading comprehension, focusing on the use of words in context. And keep defending intolerance in the name of "more good than harm." Someday, when you're effected by the harm part, we'll hear your whine from coast to coast.
Posted by JAshcroft on September 20, 2007 03:54 PMJAshcroft, very clever dumas. You still refuse to answer because of you at least are smart enough to realize your own hypocracy. Keep it up dumas. As Darfur has mentioned each local group goes by thier own "rules" as it were. I am not defending nor do I have anyone in my family associated with BSA. Never have never will. But to throw the baby out with the bathwater is a bit extreme dont you think..... even in your tolerant state of mind?
Posted by on September 20, 2007 04:04 PMJashcroft also why did you even use the reference of RACISM if not to make a point and keep in "context" People like you try to be clever with words and phrases and then get all defensive with "context" when called to the carpet. Debating on context only applies to others, not you. Great thoughts there and I know you wish you could live by your own rules and disregard everything that makes your brain hurt. Stop the BS and answer the damn question, and quit complaining on context. Be consistent with your engagement of standards. I know it is difficult for you, but please try.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 04:09 PMit's a shame the lefties over whelmed the good liberal thought in this country. Bigots like JAshcroft are the scum that floats to the surface from the left nowadays. They are so bigoted and arrogant that if something doesn't conform to their worldly view they condemn and attack it.
Besides being very bigoted in their concept of what is acceptable, their very small minded.
The death of the American Liberal was a tragedy -- the birth of the American "Progressive" bigots like JAshcroft just compounds it.
Run back to MoveOn.org and come up with a snappy retort now, JAsscroft...don't let your lead animals down in defining how the world should be.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 04:12 PMDumas aka ashcroft where have I been intolerant? I am not supporting "all" or close to all of BSA standards and doctrines, but you refuse to read that part of my posts. Your hatred of christianity and group activities blind your vision. And before you blame me for being a christian bible thumper, wrong again. Not religious and a very good supporter of Gay rights.......crap that will completely blow your fuse of sensibility.
Key word is Tolerance. It goes both ways and in this imperfect world, we must take the good and continue to work on the bad. We will never get anywhere without it.
Perfection is reserved for brainstorming and drug enduced fun discussions.
Just a dumb conservative hippie, not einstein
Posted by on September 20, 2007 04:16 PMWow, 3 anonymous coward postings in a row! Apparently it doesn't take much cleverness to throw you in a tizzy. Just complete sentences will do.
Here's the prior posting...read it very slowly...
Scouting enthusiast, if you want to make a point please read your post before posting it. Boy scouts are worldwide? So is christianity, because missionaries are worldwide. And so is the nazi party, because racists are worldwide.
See?, the word racist applies to the nazi party, not the BSA!....unless, of course, Einstein is equating the nazi party with the BSA.
Saying that one is only a "local" member of the BSA is like saying one is only a "local" member of the Republican or Democratic party. Either way, you bought the platform. Don't like it, leave the party. Don't agree with the BSA national platform?, leave it....or continue to be associated with it.
After all, you don't need a badge or the title Eagle Scout, to let people that you know, and can survive in, nature, do you?
Posted by JAshcroft on September 20, 2007 04:27 PMNo one has yet refuted my proposition or answered my question; also since when did discrimination become synonymous with degredation? All groups but the weakest and lamest discrminate who they let in, BSA also does not allow women to become boy scouts, the AARP doens't let in anyone under 55(citation needed), The NAACP doesn't allow members of the KKK, The united pentecostal church doesn't allow Islamic Clerics to become ministers, etc. Why then should the scouts have to take people they don't agree with?
Posted by Pittman on September 20, 2007 05:01 PMBecause the bigot left has determined their view is the only view permitted in this world, as exemplified by our own JAsscroft -- speaker for the all knowing and wise wizard of oz...Moveon.org.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 05:19 PMBecause the bigot left has determined their view is the only view permitted in this world, as exemplified by our own JAsscroft -- speaker for the all knowing and wise wizard of oz...Moveon.org.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 05:39 PMBecause the bigot left has determined their view is the only view permitted in this world, as exemplified by our own JAsscroft -- speaker for the all knowing and wise wizard of oz...Moveon.org.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 05:40 PMBecause the bigot left has determined their view is the only view permitted in this world, as exemplified by our own JAsscroft -- speaker for the all knowing and wise wizard of oz...Moveon.org.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 05:41 PM"So Hans you want to bring politics into this and know how many grow up to be liberals?"
This one did, 8:01! (Back then we still wore neckerchieves.)
But I don't deserve credit for bringing politics into this. When a private group known to descriminate on "moral" principles demands the right to recruit in a public place like a school cafeteria, politics has already crept in.
Looks like 5:19-5:39-5:40-5:41 has the hiccups.
Posted by Hans Christian Brando on September 20, 2007 06:09 PMHey JAsscroft, when you cut and paste to make somebody look foolish, pay attention to the posting times, fool -- there's a 20 minute difference between the original post and the second post. So infantile, but then so is you play of names...
Posted by on September 20, 2007 06:11 PMPittman asked ” Where else in this country have Jews, Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Shintos, and even atheists ever been able to come together at the table of brotherhood as in the scouts?”
Since nobody else answered and you are feeling left out, I am happy to.
Pretty much every chess club, model airplane club, shooting club, sports club, MENSA, birding club, astronomy club, and so on and so forth. The scouting movement is by no means unique in appealing across religious or ethnic lines.
By a quirk of history though, they are hoist on their own petard, because part of their creed now makes them seem intolerant.
Many lifestyles that in BP’s time were supposedly abhorrent are now quite unremarkable.
If the Scouts are going to be unabashedly unable to accommodate gays, then they cannot strut their stuff in a government building without thereby making the government break the law.
The government is rightfully bound by rules more strict than civil organizations, and in this case they cannot give a venue for the scouts to recruit without breaking those rules.
What is so difficult to understand?
6:11, clearly you don't need someone to make you look foolish, you've got that taken care of.
Posted by on September 21, 2007 08:01 AMAn atheist boy can join if he keeps quiet about his disbelief, but a 12 year old gay boy?
Maybe boys don`t know their sexual preference till they are older. Girls pretty much know around 6-7 that they like boys.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 21, 2007 08:08 AMbango skank, go back and read the constitution, you r tard. It says equal protection, not equal acknowledgment or dispensation under the law.
As far as other groups and clubs are groups are concerned, none have the history of community service or religous involvement. The fact that BSA has all the manor of religious awards, and the fact that we celebrate all of them equally shows that we come together in a way that is often unheard of around the world. Try getting muslims, hindus, jews and christians together peaceably in Bosnia, Iraq, Pakistan and elsewhere and see what happens.
Also, as far as sexual preference is concerned, we don't want openly gay scoutmasters, that is the only thing.
Posted by Pittman on September 21, 2007 02:46 PMLet’s clarify some points that have been made. The issue surrounding the Boy Scouts is not really about who they allow in, it is weather they are a public or private organization. Not weather they are a good or bad organization, particularly at a local level.
Public Organizations are required to follow local, state and federal anti-discrimination laws, and therefore given some extra privileges. They are able to use public areas for meeting (like schools and government buildings), they are also able to receive in some circumstances either government funding (from taxes) or services at reduced or low cost. There are additional and fairly complicated tax laws that apply to public organizations, which can if they qualify allow them to avoid paying some taxes. The reasoning behind the special privileges given to public organizations is they have a mission that “serves the public good”. For example, the Rotary club (and similar service organizations) have always operated as public organizations, until recently they did not allow women. In the 1980’s the Supreme Court ruled that since they were declared a public organization they were subject to anti-discrimination laws and they had to accept women.
Private organizations are different, they are groups established to serve whatever population they are focused on. Tax wise, they are categorized in a different section of the tax codes and do not receive the same perks as public organizations. They do not have a right to use public buildings for meetings and such (all though they can rent the space if the building permits that, just like everyone else). They are not eligible to receive government funding, therefore they are not subject to anti-discrimination laws (at least not on membership criteria, if they hire employees, they may be subject to employment based anti-discrimination laws). For example, the KKK can accept only white members.
There is good reason for this distinction, it allows for freedom of speech and assembly in the form of private organizations. But it posits, that if a group serves the public good, they can receive extra privileges, but with those privileges come extra limitations and responsibilities. Respecting anti-discrimination law is one of those responsibilities, but there are others, like having transparent finances, not profiting and requiring a certain structure to the leadership.
The issue with the Boy Scouts is want to be classified as a private organization when it comes to membership (not allow homosexuals, atheists or girls). Two of their membership rules violate federal law (discriminating on religion and gender). The third rule violates some local and state laws from place to place. That would be fine if the boy scouts didn’t want to use public buildings at free or low cost, use public services (the military provides set-up and staffs the annual Jamboree on military property). They want to continue to receive government subsides. The Supreme Court has had mixed rulings on this issue. On one hand they recently upheld the rights of the scouts to maintain their membership requirements, but they also ruled that if a state or local government wants to withhold special use or property or services because it violates state or local law, they have the right to do so. In my opinion the Courts rulings were awkward and have some gaping loop holes on both sides, but it seems that their intent was to maintain the basic principal of the public vs. private organization principal that private organizations based on anything (within legal limits) must be allowed to maintain freedom of speech and assembly, but also, that public organizations have additional responsibilities and limitations in order to justify the “perks” they get for serving the public good.
To me the complicating factor in this issue, is that there does seem to be a large disparity between what actually occurs at the local troop level of the organization, and what the National Council says and does. There have been studies that show that while the National Council forbids local troops from allowing gay scouts or atheists, most local troops don’t care what a boy thinks or believes. For the most part it never comes up as an issue. There was an example on this thread of a local group that has an atheist member and no one cares. On the other hand if there was enough publicity about that fact to catch the National Councils attention, they could be forced to expel the boy.
Personally, I think it is a tough issue, I can not knowingly support any form of discrimination, but I also see that usually at the local level it is not an issue, and that scouting can be a great thing for many kids. For that reason, when Boy Scouts are selling popcorn I choose not to buy the popcorn since a good chunk of the money goes directly to the National Council, but I will happily write a check directly to the local troop to support them (this is also because I don’t care to support the high salaries of the national council employees, but do want to support my community and those that volunteer there time to work with kids). On the other hand I am not going to protest if they do not receive special perks when they are not living up to their responsibilities. I do wish that the local troops who for the most part object to discrimination would do more to change the organization from within. I also think it is important to note that in Britain where the boy scouts were founded, they have long since stopped discriminating on any basis. I have looked at the Boy Scouts financial reports and they do rely heavily on federal, state and local privileges, funding, and free and reduced rate services and space. So I think it is likely that if those subsides were totally cut off, the scouts would quickly change their policies. I think it is also important to note the Scouts did not have a written policy excluding gays until a few years ago, so there is not the historical membership precedent that they might claim.
Also, for the record, the Girl Scouts (of which I was a member and received my Gold award which is the Girl Scout equivalent of Eagle Scout), do not discriminate on any basis, you are welcome if you are atheist, gay or even a boy.
Pittman the Shorthanded said ” bango skank, go back and read the constitution, you r tard. It says equal protection, not equal acknowledgment or dispensation under the law.”
Say what?
What are you talking about?
”As far as other groups and clubs are groups are concerned, none have the history of community service … [blah blah]”
Oh get over yourself already, many many other organizations do every bit as much.
The fact remains, and I see you didn’t respond to it, that as long as the BSA have this issue with gays, the government cannot accommodate their recruitment activities without breaking restrictions placed on government behaviour.
These restrictions are obvious, uncontroversial, and well understood – so why are you making a fuss over what you actually agree with?
Two kids in my immediate family just joined the Boy Scouts I am VERY proud of them!!!
Long live the BSA!!! Oh by the way I am agnostic and my sister is gay...she is proud and happy for our two little boy scouts!!
Posted by A on September 22, 2007 01:18 PMKelley
I think you need to get a life. What is your problem? It is quite apparent you have no clue about the BSA. If you are not interested in being involved in Boy Scouts then stay away and leave it alone. I do not see people writing bazaar letters to the editor or anyone harrassing you about your strange outlook on life or the strange bazaar orgainzations that you are involved in.
You need some serious proffessional help, I suggest you get help soon
Kelley Coffman-Lee needs to keep her warped and ignorant opinions about the BSA to herself. Kelley pretty much describes herself in a nut shell as it appears she rejects children that want to live a "morally straight" "clean" lifestyle. If this lifestyle is not within her standards then she should stay away from the BSA and not voice her ignorant opinion of it.
I have never heard of members of the BSA going out and vandalizing property as some other organizations have done so. Nor have I ever heard of the BSA having scouts draw pictures and make fun of fat people and then post them in the local library like Kelley has had children do in the past with some of her groups/organizations she is involved in. Kelley discriminates against fat people. What type of person does this make her?
I think kelley is a very mentally disturbed individual, everyone affilitated with the BSA should be concerned, she will probably someday barge into a Boy Scout meeting and shoot everyone.
Posted by jose on September 24, 2007 10:06 PMKelley, I was a boy scout, remember? Dad was very proud of me. I am sorry that you are still so hurt by his death. These people responding to your BSA accusations don't really understand you. But they are ALL of them right. And you know it. Call me some time, please.
Posted by Your Brother David on February 19, 2008 11:24 AMYour an idiot, do you home school one or all of your children, from the confinement of your soup kitchen, get a life or stop growing serial killers with an attitude that every one is against you and your believes... Please do not cram your religious ideas onto me and my children. LIFE IS AN OPTION, Choose to live or do something positive, not critize and antagonize others to make yourself feel better. Life is not about YOU and getting NOTICED. The boy scouts are an option in life to choose. The military which is by the government and for the PROTECTION of the american people. Ranks, badges, uniforms, logos and slogans, 101 st Airborne, 82nd Airborne represent something special and a need to be the best that you can be. The BSA want the children to be the best that they can be based on their abilites, regardless of what they are taught at home and in society. Organizations that promote team work, organizational skills, how to GET along with people that have different ideas and opinions are required in a society with no morals or values. The right to free speech is out of control with extreme leftist ideas that are prejudice and create an hostile environment. Create your own BSA or Girl scouts, but listening to you, I would NEVER allow my children or any children to follow leadership so extreme. I don't force my roman catholic religion onto you or your children as you force your relgious belief or lack thereof onto me or mine. I suppose you are a vegetarian too... People like you should be required to have a license to procreate, maybe Jeffrey Dahmer grew up with a MOTHER like you, frustrated with society and their one sided point of view towards gay and beliefs in GOD. Do you even love your own family, brothers and sisters. I am tired of the minority deciding what is right and wrong and how to raise my children according to the word of god or no god... I suppose GOD should be removed from the Pledge of Allegiance and from all monetary money, In God we Trust, all others pay cash but today we pay with credit cards and real estate, financial problems from bad choices, greedy americans and emotional unstable people who forgot, that duty, honor, country and family are most important. How is your statement a positive influence to help others? What do we tell our children to believe in today? That you can make a difference.
The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag: "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, and with liberty and justice for all." 1892...
It was marketed as a way to celebrate the 400th anniversary of Columbus arriving in the Americas and was first published on the following day.
"I Pledge allegiance to my Flag, and to the Republic for which it stands: one Nation indivisible, With Liberty and Justice for all."
He had initially also considered using the words equality and fraternity but decided they were too controversial since many people opposed equal rights for women and blacks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_Allegiance
It is our history that makes up who we are, now you want to change it, in 2008 and forward... Should we change our parents or forget what they did to bring us here to present day. Relax... breathe, enjoy life, stress will only kill you. Please smile and enjoy the oxygen that earth gives us, simply life, don't complicate it taking words and life out of context.
Thank you but people are just too emotional and angry, look on the road when you travel, it starts and ends with each one of us... Don't get mad, don't get even, smile, say please, thank you, spread the word of happiness and life itself. Run outside and make a snow angel in the snow or go to the beach and breathe in the air.
Go Pack Go
The First and Last American Team
More positive behavior from a mother who doesn't work and home schools her children from the confimenent of her soup kitchen... You must make your parents proud, what do your children think of you and biased views.
Posted by Camera Staff
Kelley Coffman-Lee: Circus is indeed cruel
Posted May 31, 2007
After reading the May 31st article Animal rights group lobbying commissioners before event I felt it necessary to share how a prominent and highly regarded school district just down the street from where the Carson & Barnes Circus will be setting up their tents defines those “guides” used on circus animals everywhere. Earlier this year the Cherry Creek School District made the decision to end their 12-year-old “Night at the Circus” fundraiser. And it only took the presentation of a bullhook to persuade them.
I held this bullhook in my own hands. It was a disturbing item to behold. It resembled an ordinary fireplace poker – only thicker, heavier, and sharpened to a fierce point. There are two metal points, actually. One at the tip for jabbing, and of course the curved hook next to it for gouging purposes. The word “guide” does not spring readily to mind when gazing at this ominous, piercing tool of the trade. Not only do circus trainers routinely use such tools, they use them effectively. They know exactly where the most sensitive areas on the elephant’s anatomy can be found – behind the knee, behind the ears, under the chin. These are precisely the areas where bloody bullhook wounds are most often discovered by USDA inspectors. Circuses also routinely use something called “wonder dust” – a powder used to hide these bullhook wounds from the circus audience, and of course, USDA inspectors.
Hurting and scaring wild animals into submission is the only way to get them to perform for paying crowds, unless I’ve been misinformed and tigers out in the jungle actually do stand in line awaiting their turn to leap through flames. This is why so many “radicals” are against animals in entertainment. If you decide to attend the Carson & Barnes Circus this summer, or any circus that uses animals as performers for that matter, it’s true, you likely will not see the abuse. You’ll merely see the result of many hours of abuse. As Carson & Barnes’ own trainer Tim Frisco has stated, “I’m not gonna touch her (elephant performer) in front of a thousand people…she’s gonna [expletive] do what I want and that’s just [expletive] the way it is.” But you don’t have to take his word for it. In a recent letter, the Cherry Creek Schools Foundation acknowledged that the bullhook is indeed a “weapon” and that they would no longer be selling circus tickets to the children in any of their 57 schools. We should all follow their compassionate example and strike “watch animals being forced to perform under the threat of punishment” from our fun summer activity to-do list.
Kelley Coffman-Lee
Centennial, CO 80015
http://www.dailycamera.com/blogs/letters-editor-blog/2007/may/31/kelleycoffmanlee/
Posted by Shocking Adult Behavior on February 19, 2008 01:12 PMMore positive behavior from a mother who doesn't work and home schools her children from the confimenent of her soup kitchen... You must make your parents proud, what do your children think of you and biased views.
Posted by Camera Staff
Kelley Coffman-Lee: Circus is indeed cruel
Posted May 31, 2007
After reading the May 31st article Animal rights group lobbying commissioners before event I felt it necessary to share how a prominent and highly regarded school district just down the street from where the Carson & Barnes Circus will be setting up their tents defines those “guides” used on circus animals everywhere. Earlier this year the Cherry Creek School District made the decision to end their 12-year-old “Night at the Circus” fundraiser. And it only took the presentation of a bullhook to persuade them.
I held this bullhook in my own hands. It was a disturbing item to behold. It resembled an ordinary fireplace poker – only thicker, heavier, and sharpened to a fierce point. There are two metal points, actually. One at the tip for jabbing, and of course the curved hook next to it for gouging purposes. The word “guide” does not spring readily to mind when gazing at this ominous, piercing tool of the trade. Not only do circus trainers routinely use such tools, they use them effectively. They know exactly where the most sensitive areas on the elephant’s anatomy can be found – behind the knee, behind the ears, under the chin. These are precisely the areas where bloody bullhook wounds are most often discovered by USDA inspectors. Circuses also routinely use something called “wonder dust” – a powder used to hide these bullhook wounds from the circus audience, and of course, USDA inspectors.
Hurting and scaring wild animals into submission is the only way to get them to perform for paying crowds, unless I’ve been misinformed and tigers out in the jungle actually do stand in line awaiting their turn to leap through flames. This is why so many “radicals” are against animals in entertainment. If you decide to attend the Carson & Barnes Circus this summer, or any circus that uses animals as performers for that matter, it’s true, you likely will not see the abuse. You’ll merely see the result of many hours of abuse. As Carson & Barnes’ own trainer Tim Frisco has stated, “I’m not gonna touch her (elephant performer) in front of a thousand people…she’s gonna [expletive] do what I want and that’s just [expletive] the way it is.” But you don’t have to take his word for it. In a recent letter, the Cherry Creek Schools Foundation acknowledged that the bullhook is indeed a “weapon” and that they would no longer be selling circus tickets to the children in any of their 57 schools. We should all follow their compassionate example and strike “watch animals being forced to perform under the threat of punishment” from our fun summer activity to-do list.
Kelley Coffman-Lee
Centennial, CO 80015
http://www.dailycamera.com/blogs/letters-editor-blog/2007/may/31/kelleycoffmanlee/
Posted by Bullhook Mother as a Teacher on February 19, 2008 01:17 PMReviews Written by
Kelley Coffman-lee "Mother of 3" (Centennial, CO USA)
As an avid reader of "scads" of books related to vegetarianism/veganism - and as a vegetarian of nine years, vegan of one - I've got to say this is by far THE MOST ENTERTAINING BOOK I've read on this topic! I've gasped, winced and even cried reading non-fiction portraying the ghasly side of human behavior and how we treat animals, but I've never laughed out loud - until now! (My cats think these seemingly unprovoked outbursts indicate that I've finally gone insane.) Definitely not just for the flesh-eater, as the title may lead one to conclude, this book is jam-packed with facts and the author's insightful observations. Reinhardt, perhaps the only ethical attorney in existence, asks you to question your behaviors, consider the alternatives and make the kindest, most logical alterations in your lifestyle for your physical health, your conscience, the planet and of course, the animals. Don't pass this one up - buy it used, contact the author, track down an unsuspecting vegan in the tofu department and beg to borrow it! I love this book and am buying copies for all of my redneck, backwoods relatives who still can't pronounce "what it is exactly that I am." (Veee-gun, Aunt Edna.) This one is fun and informative - get a copy and enjoy!
Posted by concerned american on February 19, 2008 01:28 PMExploiting Your Children is normal for Kelley
Eight year-old Gabe demonstrates that age doesn’t matter when it comes to speaking out for the animals. Making the decision on his own to go vegetarian at the young age of 4, he has always been sensitive to the well-being of others. After finding out about the horrible treatment of animals in circuses, Gabe couldn’t keep quiet about the issue. He recently helped his Mom convince his school district to stop selling tickets to Ringling Bros. and was featured in PETA’s Animal Times for his efforts.
Gabe has set up exhibits in the library on circuses and factory farming. Most recently, he observed World Farm Animals Day in his school by distributing 85 WFAD handouts that explain the connection between animals we call pets and animals we call food. In honor of last year’s WFAD, he put up displays in the school library, gave a speech to his 2nd grade class, handed out a sheet on fun animal facts, and showed Farm Sanctuary’s video, “My Friends on the Farm.”
When asked why he does all of this, Gabe says, "The animals need my help because they're being eaten and they're being hurt...they have no power."
http://www.wfad.org/Alerts/RPTEvents7.htm
http://www.peta.org/mc/NewsItem.asp?id=2992&pf=true
Local Woman Trying to Help Sick Bird But Got Trespass Notice Instead
For Immediate Release:
October 3, 2003
Contact:
Christy Griffin 757-622-7382
Aurora, Colo. — Animal-supplies chain PETCO has nationwide problems, in and out of court, connected with complaints about sick animals. In Aurora, after pointing out a canary who appeared ill at her local PETCO store and being denied the opportunity to buy the bird and take him to a veterinarian, Kelley Coffman-Lee sought help for the bird by calling the police. Instead of providing the help she sought, police officers complied with the PETCO store manager’s instructions to hand Coffman-Lee a trespass notice barring her from entering the E. Quincy Avenue store.
Coffman-Lee is hopping mad, and she says that she has witnessed negligence at both Aurora PETCO locations—ranging from filthy fish tanks to a rat with a bloody sore on his head to a ferret with a dislocated shoulder—and had decided to personally visit the stores regularly, documenting conditions and bringing problems to the attention of staff. Back in May, Coffman-Lee sought and received permission from PETCO to do just that, and since her first visit, she has reported more than 20 eyewitness accounts of sick or injured animals in PETCO stores.
People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals (PETA) is taking up Coffman-Lee’s case because PETA headquarters receives countless PETCO customer complaints from all over the country—including reports of sick and injured animals left to die in their cages or placed in freezers to die, enclosures caked with feces, a failure to provide veterinary care, severely stressed animals’ cannibalizing each other, and staff members untrained in basic animal care. PETA also monitors court cases where PETCO is in legal hot water over its ill treatment of animals.
Last month, PETA filed a shareholder resolution calling on the chain to stop selling birds, reptiles, fish, and other small animals—which, according to PETCO CEO Brian Devine, makes up less than 5 percent of the chain’s annual revenues—and urging PETCO to focus instead on selling food, supplies, and services and expanding adoption programs. Last November, PETA filed a letter of complaint with the Securities and Exchange Commission, alleging that PETCO failed to disclose to its stockholders its animal sales figures, animal death totals, the significant number of customer complaints it has received, and the legal actions filed against the company.
"Rather than take seriously the complaints of customers like Kelley, PETCO prefers to sweep its chronic problems under the rug, even if it means barring customers from the store," says PETA Domestic Animal Issues & Abuse Director Daphna Nachminovitch. "PETCO needs to improve its standard of animal care, and customers need to stay away until they do."
For more information, please visit PETA’s Web site PETCOCruelty.com.
Children learn what is crammed down their throat over and over and over, but look what I find fom the internet on various search engines...