Teachers and compensation
I found Erik Palmer’s article interesting. As a great man once wrote, “Methinks He Doth Protest Too Much". First, he used simplistic absolutes that are absurd on the face of it.
Teachers are in it for the money, otherwise the “associations"(euphemism for the teacher’s unions) wouldn’t fight tooth and nail for more cash for their members. It isn’t a sin to want to be well compensated, but we as taxpayers want value for our money.
Some teachers, not all, are not only concerned about compensation but also accountbility. This is why the CSAPs are fought so furiously. Heaven forbid we find out that Johnny STILL can’t read.
Qualified teachers aren’t lining up because teaching by its very nature attracts deadwood. Those who can’t do, teach (Those who can’t do or teach consult, but that’s a different issue). We are seeing the logical conclusion to this with, as Mr. Palmer states, few of our best and brightest becoming teachers. As a result, we now see in the workforce and college admissions twentysomethings who cannot read, write or do simple arithmetic. I’ve never seen anything like it.
Special ed kids are in private schools, and many are home schooled. Public schools drop the ball here as well as almost every other area. They should be ashamed of their performance on every level. Mr. Palmer is right about his last point, that schools can’t do as much as we think. Right now their level of dysfunction is unprecedented and most of us have very low expectations for our public schools.
This is why even low income folks are making great sacrifices to keep their kids out of failed public schools all over the country. Help them out with vouchers, they aren’t coming back anyway as long as the staus quo continues.
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Well, first of all Pat, the quote is actually "the lady doth protest too much, methinks," and it is from Hamlet, Act 3 scene 2.
Secondly, to generalize a profession by saying, "teaching by its very nature attracts deadwood," and not using any kind of data or evidence for such a statement is irresponsible at best. I would say the teaching profession attracts no more "deadwood" than any other profession, although I am also unable to qualify that comment. But until evidence suggests otherwise, I will not rely on your statement to disprove a negative.
Thirdly, I will argue statistical data any time about compensation regarding teachers. The salary data will demonstrate that compared to some professions, teachers make less, and to others, they make more. Fair compensation is a subjective term, and as such (Truth this is for you), will leave it alone. However, your over-generalized statement that "teachers are in it for the money" on it's face, is a stretch, if not an outright untruth. According to Public Agenda's 'A Sense of Calling' the number one reason teachers join this profession is indeed a passion for teaching.
The only way to know if qualified teachers are deciding against teaching would be to directly poll all students at every accredited University in the US when they identify their majors, and ask the reason why they chose that major. I will grant you that the median tenure of the teaching profession is 7 years, so maybe we could explore what is the number one cause of teachers leaving the profession?
According to the US Dept. of Education, 6 million children are taught in the public school under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act. According to the National Center for Education Statistics, there are a TOTAL of 1.1 million students home schooled, and a total of 5.1 million TOTAL students in private schools Not only do I doubt your assertion that "Special ed kids are in private schools, and many are home schooled," according to available data, I would say you flat out fabricated your opinion.
The rest of the pro-public education community can comment freely, but I did want to address the lack of research Pat Desrosiers has done, as well as the fabrication of information.
Posted by Dan2 on September 11, 2007 03:04 PMPat Desrosiers: "Qualified teachers aren’t lining up because teaching by its very nature attracts deadwood."
I think we have a pretty good idea from that quote that we are not dealing with an intelligent person. It would be interesting to find out what caused Pat's sickness, maybe a teacher who tried, unsuccessfully, to get her to think.
Posted by Truth on September 11, 2007 03:17 PMI dated an education major when I was in college. One of her mid-terms was cutting out paper dolls.
I also had one of my Economics teachers tell me how much they love it when the liberal and fine arts teachers start complaining how their underpaid. Every time the complaining leads to additional funds for teachers and professors, it almost entirely goes to the business, science, and engineering departments.
Anecdotal stories they may be, but they do provide food for thought.
Posted by otto on September 11, 2007 05:29 PMDan2 said:
"Well, first of all Pat, the quote is actually "the lady doth protest too much, methinks," and it is from Hamlet, Act 3 scene 2."
You just went up a few notches in my book (not that that should matter much to you). I'm a big Shakespeare aficionado.
Posted by John II on September 11, 2007 06:29 PM"They should be ashamed of their performance on every level."
Maybe Pat Desrosiers has something there. If I'd been one of his/her teachers, I'd certainly be ashamed.
I'd love to hear their side, though.
"Desrosiers? Oh, yeah. Lazy little punk. Never did any homework. Constantly disrupted the class. Parents didn't give a damn, either. Johnny can't read because he doesn't want to and Mommy and Daddy blame us.
"Some parents blame a 'lack of discipline', which is a laugh. Look at their little brat the wrong way and Mommy and Daddy are running to their lawyer.
"In it for the money, are we? Yeah, that's why we drive 20-year-old cars and wear 10-year-old clothes, and spend our long unpaid vacations at home.
Deadwood, huh? Gee, they must wonder why 'the best and the brightest' can't be lured to such into the profession that's so rewarding that 50% quit in the first five years. Yeah, let's see any of them try to teach Desrosiers anything-- better yet, try 30 or 40 Desrosiers in a single classroom."
Posted by Hans Christian Brando on September 11, 2007 08:25 PMInteresting comments and observations.
As to why people don’t go into teaching, I can only speak from my own experience.
As a young undergrad, I considered teaching and said as much to one of my professors. His advice was direct: stay out of it. Considering that teaching seems like an utterly thankless job with an endless supply of frustrations, this was probably pretty good advice.
Most people who go into teaching these days is for the paid 3 months off in the summer and all the other paid holidays not to mention all the So-called teachers conferences which should be held during the 3 months off in the summer. Poor under paid professionals. Most of the rest are in there to spread their left wing ideologies and philosophies. Maybe 10% are there to really teach the 3 R's.
Posted by No Blinders on September 12, 2007 11:48 AMTo the person who posts under the remarkably arrogant name "Truth" -- you need some serious therapy.
There is a way to express an opinion, and then there is a way to insult others for their own opinions. For some time now, I have noticed that WHENEVER the opportunity arises, however slight, you take the low road on these choices.
For instance, today's entry: "We are not dealing with an intelligent person....it would be interesting to see what caused her illness..."
The real Truth is: Healthy, sane people don't write stuff like this about people they don't know.
I just graduated from one of the top schools in the country, and I can tell you first hand that there are a large number of qualified, eager, would-be teachers who choose other proffesions because they know the salary and frustration are simply not worth it. I actually include myself in this camp.
As is true in all aspects of life, you get what you pay for. Where education is concerned, it looks like Americans have champagne tastes and a beer budget.
If we want to be competitive in the global marketplace, we are going to have to start devoting the resources towards education that every other developed country is. We are falling dangerously behind the rest of the world, and it is only a matter of time before this gulf between us begins causing the US substantial problems.
Posted by Grog on September 12, 2007 11:54 AMHow about we let the people pick their own schools and give them the vouchers that pay for it? That would make us competitive. In the meantime pass a law protecting teachers from any lawsuits arising from non physical discipline and put teeth in a "loser pays" modification to the tort system. Also make it possible for the schools to expel students to a "problem kid school with no nonsense rules and make it a "last chance" school. Those who refuse to learn can leave and allow the rest to make progress. Make the changes and public schools will have a real chance to do the job most teachers want to do: Educate kids to make it in the real world.
Posted by momma y on September 12, 2007 01:18 PMWeary of Truth, I repeat: a person who makes the asinine statement that "teaching by its very nature attracts deadwood" is unintelligent and sick.
You apparently disagree and think that the person is intelligent and mentally right on. That is your prerogative.
Posted by Truth on September 12, 2007 05:23 PMThe psychological foundation for the continuing disrespect for, and misunderstanding of, Teaching as a profession, is found in an old cliche, altogether too often repeated through the ages: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."
From the time of the fall of the Western Roman Empire, literacy, and the discipline of imparting the knowledge of HOW to think, has been totally secondary to the ideas of conquering; ruling and lording over others; getting and keeping the most, while seeing to it that everyone else gets as little as possible of the leftovers; and indoctrinating children as to WHAT to think, and when and where to think it, as "all that's necessary".
Some modern examples may be found in the area of CSAP, for instance. Teach to the test. Make the point of getting the right marks in the right little boxes; and that's the "measure of teaching performance". So Forth. (You can certainly provide a host of similar examples for yourself.)
Public Education still strives to keep alive the premise that one should learn HOW to think. And, this is a never ending struggle with those who want nothing more than a docile, and obedient, response to indoctrination as to WHAT to think, and the corollarys of when and where one is allowed to think it.
For those parents who want their children to learn HOW to think, the public school is still doing its best, even with all the interference and opposition it has from the other side. For those parents who want their children to learn only WHAT to think, believe, and parrot throughout the rest of their lives, the private and parochial schools are there, claiming the idea of "better education".
I opened the doors on my first teaching job 60 years ago September 1st. And I have had experience in both public and private school areas. My support is always on the side of the EDUCATORS, having seen what the INDOCTRINATORS usually produce. If you want your child educated for the 21st Century, and beyond, get out there and get busy supporting your PUBLIC SCHOOL and its TEACHERS!
Posted by Old Grouch on September 13, 2007 12:03 PM