Teachers and experience
The Speakout Column of 9/3 by Erik Palmer cannot go unchallenged.
Specifically, one of his points, is that any teacher with five years or more experience knows more about children and teaching than any columnist, radio talk show host, parents, etc.
It is exactly that type of arrogance by far too many (not all) in the public schools that perpetuates the mediocre to poor results in public education today. If Mr. Palmer’s assertion was accurate, then the scores on CSAP’s, SAT’s, ACT’s, Iowa Skills tests, graduation rates, etc should be markedly improving. But actual results show that they are not.
Our two children were pulled out of a local area public school district years ago exactly because of that type of arrogance. At that time my wife and I were told by teachers and administrators that they knew better when it came to implementing ideas such as outcome based education, whole language, inventive spelling, no grammar instruction, no grades, no homework.
And while my wallet became lighter in providing parochial education for my two children, they are better off today as a result. But we were fortunate, we had the financial means. I am concerned about the parents who do not and thus they have no choice if they have the same frustrations with the public schools that I did.
And as long as the pubic schools can avoid the ultimate accountability that the private schools have, they can afford to show the arrogance of ‘we know better’ and disregard legitimate calls for reform.
The articles we see today about results in public education are really no different than they were 10 years ago and i am sorry to say they will not be much different 10 years from now.
This letter has not been edited.
Mr. Nierling, a few counter points:
1) CSAP, SAT, ACT, ISBT etc. are all graded on a curve whereby students are compared with students in their year. Even if all students are doing better, the scores will not change, since they are based on a percentile ranking against fellow students. Each year there are approximately the same number of 800 scores on the SAT's, and this is on purpose. I don't know if students are getting better or worse, but I do know that the only explanation for drastically different scores would be a flaw in test grading. If you knew anything about education, you would realize that there are an equal number of kids in the 99th percentile and the 1st percentile every year.
2) The majority of the education policies Nierling cites weren't implemented by teachers at all, but were rather foisted upon them by politicians. I don't know of too many teachers who put much stock in whole language, inventive spelling, no child left behind, etc. You can't discount the experience of a teacher based on poor public policy decisions that were forced upon them.
3) Lastly, he falls into the unfortunate trap of using anecdotal evidence regarding his own children as evidence to support his claims. There is no way for anybody outside of Nierling to validate any of his claims, and experience will tell you that parents cannot be trusted to be subjective about perceived injustices wrought agains their children. This is human nature (and forgiveable) but it does not make for a convincing argument.
So in summation, it appears we have another vote for vouchers by somebody who clearly doesn't know very much at all about even the basic tenets of education.
Posted by Grog on September 12, 2007 02:31 PMI just love these psudo-intelecuals(teachers) who think they are SO enlightened they what is best for EVERYBODY.
Posted by tj on September 12, 2007 02:47 PMTJ you spelled "pseudo" incorrectly. Problems in school?
Posted by curious on September 12, 2007 02:52 PMMr. Nierling,
Please ignore the NEA sound bites presented by Grog, one of our resident socialist advocates. While he says that parents can't be trusted to essentially to evaluate what's best education-wise for their children, his fellow socialistic leaning professional educators are infallible. Just pour more money into their fantasy based education system and things will turn around; yada, yada, yada...
I also pulled my kids out of the dismal public education system (Cherry Creek) and put them in private school. Every single dime was worth it. They both enjoyed and excelled in receiving a solid academic education and well rounded social education.
Congratulations on making the correct choice for your children. I agree that it's criminal to hold children hostage to a failed public system.
Posted by on September 12, 2007 02:52 PMYeah, explaining the basics of how tests are scored means your a socialist, I guess.
On the other hand, a guy who writes sentences like, "parents can't be trusted to essentially to evaluate what's best education-wise" are the winners you want to be listening to.
Why do the letters advocating vouchers always sound like they were written by 12 year olds?
Posted by Dan2 on September 12, 2007 03:16 PMBecause danny2 boy, not everyone is as proper and sanctimonious as you and your intellectual twin, charlie boy,are. Some just rip off a quick response while moving from project to project at work, and don't devote a lot of time putting on airs to impress others.
Write to express, not impress - especially when pressed for time, your sanctimonious twit.
Posted by on September 12, 2007 03:34 PM"your sanctimonious twit."
Priceless.
Posted by Grog on September 12, 2007 03:41 PMGrog caught my typo -- I was referring to danny2 boy and meant to type " you're a sanctimonious twit". Goes to demonstrate my point of quickly typing a post while on the run...
so the correction is...danny2 boy, you're a sanctimonious twit.
Thank you, Grog. It's nice to know that you're more than a pretty face passing in the late summer afternoon.
Posted by on September 12, 2007 04:13 PMSomeone hijacked my name. PLEASE do not use my name. The post at 3:16 is NOT me. Evident by the use of the word "your" instead of either you are, or you're, the proper conjunction of the two words.
Now, to actually comment on this letter...
For the benefit of those like the anonymous poster, and Truth, I would hold this to be a truth. Those that coach, mentor, are part of the big-brothers / big-sisters, or members of clergy, may know as much about children as teachers. It would also be willing to bet, that if a scholarly study was compiled, nurses, especially in burn units, cancer units, and those that work at the Ronald McDonald Houses probably know a bit about children as well. To generalize that ALL teachers know more about kids than ANYONE else, is as arrogant as it is ignorant.
Grog claims that "The majority of the education policies Nierling cites weren't implemented by teachers at all, but were rather foisted upon them by politicians."
I would say that is most likely technically true, but local school boards and administrators make a super majority of policy, as they have direct over-sight. That is the whole point of local control, is it not?
Anon,
I would imagine that you are not just commenting on the "pretend Dan2's" post of today, but my normal, overall posting, correct? What the hell are you actually trying to imply? That because I do my homework, research a topic, and then make an intelligent (and you are right, sometimes sanctimonious) comment, I am a "twit?" So, without ever meeting me, because I actually use reason and rationale, and don't write "full of emotion," you are going to call me a twit?
You can call me names, post unintelligently and use nothing but personal experience and emotion. I'll read what you write with a grain of salt. I would rather appear to be sanctimonious, than an emotional "busy body" that doesn't take the time to research a topic, or form a rational conclusion.
But, did you see that Charles B? We are intellectual twins (of polar opposite philosophy). Are you the yin or the yang?
Posted by Dan2 on September 12, 2007 04:59 PMDan 2: "Grog claims that "The majority of the education policies Nierling cites weren't implemented by teachers at all, but were rather foisted upon them by politicians."
I would say that is most likely technically true, but local school boards and administrators make a super majority of policy, as they have direct over-sight."
There are teachers and there are school boards and administrators. They are not the same. In fact, they are sometimes opposites.
Posted by Truth on September 12, 2007 05:40 PMAnonymous 3:34,
I was not defending you. I was laughing at you. You signed your letter "your sanctimonious twit." I don't want others to think that we are on the same page, because we're not.
Dan2,
Interesting points. I agree that many other than teachers know children well, and I think you have some great examples. I don't think the original letter from Palmer claims anything about others in the fields you mention, I think he just singles out radio talk show hosts and members of the media. I don't believe he meant to imply that teachers know more than everyone, although I'm going from memory here, so I could be wrong.
I also want to let you know that it is not the case, as you suggest, that teachers have any real control over the policies they are stuck with. No Child Left Behind is the perfect example. Politicians respond to the whims of the voters to come up with unrealistic programs that take very little from teachers in front of schools. Too frequently local boards are hamstrung by elected officials trying to appease voters, so local school governance commonly involves little more than "making lemonade" with the fruit they're given.
I'm not sure how to solve the educational problems of our country, but I am absolutely certain that blaming teachers is insulting to those who choose to try to better the world rather than make a buck, and will only serve to drive even more qualified teachers away from the children who need them most.
Posted by Grog on September 12, 2007 05:43 PMDan 2: "To generalize that ALL teachers know more about kids than ANYONE else, is as arrogant as it is ignorant."
And to generalize that no teachers know as much about teaching as non-teachers is as arrogant as it is ignorant.
Of course, no one in this thread as made either generalization. So you have to wonder why Dan 2 brought it up. Perhaps because he has a liking for straw men.
Posted by Truth on September 12, 2007 05:45 PMTell me Grog....if the teachers are victims of political policy, when was the last time teachers went on strike to fight this injustice?? When was the last time teachers acted on behalf of all of us ignorant, taxpaying parents??
I 've heard the party line "it's about the children" over and over....... so tell me??
Well...don't bother, we already know the answer.
Posted by I'm not fooled on September 12, 2007 05:56 PMNierling starts (on the wrong foot) by misquoting Erik Palmer.. Here's what Palmer actually said (it was only nine days ago):
"Any teacher with five years’ experience knows more about children and teaching than all the radio talk show hosts, newspaper columnists and letter writers put together."
That's not arrogance. That's a fact. I have a 13-year-old and I couldn't begin to know how to do what her teachers do every single day. She spends more of her waking hours with them than with me - another fact. I've known her longer, but in many ways, they know her better, at least when it comes to learning.
In my experience, you get out of education exactly what you put into it. To that end, my wife and I (especially my wife) have always been very involved with our daughter's school, and her education in general. She's in her ninth year in the Cherry Creek system, and we are very proud of her accomplishments in that system. We've known dozens of teachers, administrators and other staff over the years, and while we certainly haven't always seen eye to eye with any number of those people (up to and including the superintendent), there isn't a one that I would hesitate for a moment to call a dedicated professional educator.
I would ask anyone who's dissatisfied with their public school one question: what have you done about it? Have you tried giving constructive criticism, or are you just the thorn in the side at every board meeting? Have you tried getting to know your child's teachers, or are you only into confrontations? Have you truly attempted to work with your school and not against it?
Posted by Nicholas Couch on September 12, 2007 07:47 PMThanks, Nicholas C for attempting to inject some sense into this thread.
Mr. Palmer's (not very) incendiary comment about teachers' experience was aimed at "radio talk show hosts, newspaper columnists and letter writers" who spout off about public education without having much, if any, practical experience in the field other than, presumably, having attended school at some point.
Teachers are professionally-trained specialists working in specialized areas of instruction (elementary, middle, or high school disciplines), trying to get through the mire of mandated standardized tests and standards and still create meaningful lessons to help their students. To use a slang term, "It ain't easy".
But when this "failure" that public schools have been set up for actually happens, the choruses of critics go on the attack. Of COURSE kids who can go to private schools will show higher achievement. The private schools can PICK AND CHOOSE who gets to go there! They want the best and brightest (and richest), so OF COURSE their standardized test scores are higher. Public schools must accept any kid in the neighborhood of school age. And the more "best and brightest" kids who leave public schools for private take away high-achieving kids from public schools. Down go the scores even more, so the public schools "must be failing our kids". I've watched this happen time and time again during my 24 years in public education.
Posted by Tom on September 12, 2007 09:17 PMTom,
One place where point goes astray is where you proclaim that private schools can pick and choose who goes there. Yes, they can but they cannot discriminate as you would like to lead everyone to believe. They tested our child as grounds for acceptance - kind of like -well kind of like our public universities require of their applicants. Wow Tom, what a concept, another public education sytem that requires you to test in, in order to be accepted! What do you think the SAT's & ACT's are for - is that DISCRIMINATION Tom? I think not.
Also private schools do not only take the rich you pompous ass - I'm far far rich
It is funny how the average cost per child for public education is well over $8000 per year (I've seen studies that take that number all the way to $11,400) and our child is educated for just over $3800 in a private school. HOW is it then that your proclamation that private schools are only for the rich?
And why is it that the children in my childs school test out an average of over 15% better than their public school counterparts? Again you blame that on their position of discrimination which I'll remind you again is illegal.
You are an NEA honk that subscribes to more taxpayer money being pumped into an ineffective system that is dying by its own hand. I don't want vouchers - No, I'll gladly pay for my childs education - just let me have those tax dollars from my property tax bill that go to the local school back. That is nothing near comparable to the voucher systems proposed - it just lets me opt out of a dysfunctional system. I suppose you still think that is a voucher don't you Tom?
OH MY GAWD, I THINK I'M GOING TO CHOKE. I am about to.... AAVCVHHH... support Dan2 on one point he made. Specifically, that if you are going to post, please try to write clearly and correctly.
I disagree with the idea that you should 'write to express' if, in so writing, you make so many mistakes that your point is not well received. It only feeds the monsters that are out to rip you apart . Also, if you are typing so quickly that you can't think and type clearly, wait until you have time and construct a well-thought out post. :-)
Kisses!
Good luck. I
Posted by Sheila on September 12, 2007 10:02 PMTom, while it is true that some private schools outperform some public schools when it comes to standardized testing, it is by no means true for all private and public schools. Having said that, let me add that the CSAPs are an abomination that ought to be done away with, and the sooner the better. The concept of using a single aggregate metric to "grade" and compare schools across an entire state, or even within a single school district, is deeply and inherently flawed. Even more ridiculous is the concept of evaluating a single school or school system over time without even attempting to take into account changing demographics and socio-economic factors. It is pseudo-science at best, and a sop to those who hold the mistaken belief that competition is the solution for all of life's problems.
Why the teaching profession is so disrespected and misunderstood is beyond me. I suppose the awesome responsibility you take on does tend to make you something of a target, especially for people who prefer to take little to no responsibility themselves. Then there are those, the Grover Norquists of the world, who would like to do away with virtually all activities of the state, especially the ones that have been demonstrated to do the most good for the most people. They want to put an end to public education as we know it, and in fact the CSAPs are a big step in that direction.
Posted by Nicholas Couch on September 12, 2007 10:14 PMSorry, Dan2, I didn't mean that. :-)
Mr. Couch, I do respect teachers on the whole for they do a very important job. What I do NOT respect however is the fact that a teacher will get a raise and all they do is pass on kids who learn NOTHING. They do now assign homework because it's too much busy time. Well what crops are the kids working or animals are they tending that requires so muchy time after school? Homework is supposed to be reinforcing what they learned in school. yet they have no need or desire for many teachers, not all, but many would rather just talk or sit in class and then kick the kids out and easily forget them. You see US schools falling behind faster and faster because these teachers ignore the kids and fail to teach. The countries we are losing to assign homework, the teachers actually are FORCED to teach and take responsability and the PARENTS ARE ALSO HELD ACCOUNTABLE. What needs to be done is easy enough, get rid of the foolish idea that a teacher gets a raise every year without actually performing. Tenure is another damned fool idea that serves no purpose except allow a teacher to do nothing, get paid and not have to worry about losing a job. There are many reasons why teachers, as a whole, are disrespected, the bad and worthless outshine the ones that are worth keeping.
Posted by Nick on September 12, 2007 11:14 PMTenure is an important part of any school system, Nick, but it has to be earned. It does not and should not protect completely ineffectual teachers. No homework, teachers ignoring their students, social promotion - where is this school or system you're describing? It's quite outside my realm of experience, and I attended public schools throughout my entire educational career, as have my daughter, my wife, my parents, my in-laws....
Posted by Nicholas Couch on September 13, 2007 06:03 AMOnce again, I'll give a shout-out (or "props" as my students say) to Mr. Couch for once again keeping me honest and shedding the light of common sense in this ragged "discussion". In my 24 years of teaching, I've never run across teachers who "give no homework", teachers who ignore their students' needs, or schools that merely pass failing kids along. I have known one or two teachers (literally, out of many hundreds) in my time who were just hanging on until retirement and not inspiring much in the classroom, but they are long gone. I don't know anyone in public education who fits that lame stereotype anymore. I've never seen so many hard-working, dedicated professionals as I see in education now.
But thanks to unfunded federal mandates (NCLB) and ineffectual, no-stakes (for the students) tests (CSAP), idiotic public pundits who are clueless (hello, Mr. Rosen) and poor communication from parents (we contact them and provide opportunities for communication all the time -- they often ignore us and stay home from conferences), public education is losing talented teachers and failing to attract the numbers of talented teachers we need.
Get rid of the CSAP, join your local PTSA, visit with your kids' teachers, monitor their progress, encourage their participation in clubs, sports, and activities, stay connected... show them that their schooling matters and that you care.
Now THERE'S a good start and the way to improve public schools!
Posted by Tom on September 13, 2007 06:24 AMMy child's 5th grade teacher is great. So far I like what I see and I have spoken with her about what my daughters goals are this year.
Here is the problem I'm having .Both of my children's teacher's use rewards for good behavior and good work in school.They also have a system to reprimand the ones acting up.
The problem I have is ,I think children should be rewarded with grades and honor roll certificates, not prizes like candy and little toys.
I think this is sending the right message, ( to behave in school ) the wrong way, (you'll get a toy or candy if you behave ).
I think children should be taught what the expectations are ,when they are in school.I disagree with the teachers handing out rewards for behavior . I think they should praise and discipline. Not give candy or not give candy.
I think it sends the wrong message. Instead of being proud of yourself for doing a job well done,your teacher hands you a reward every week. The kids who cannot behave themselves are not taught to behave themselves so they can get a reward. They are taught to hate the teacher and classmates because they didn't get a piece of candy or toy. There are always a few kids in the class that just can't behave everyday.
Bribing them is not going to teach them to behave consistantly.
I'm just asking for some feedback from parents on this issue.Does yor child's school do the same or are expectations of behavior and manners set high and the reward is the child's success?
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 13, 2007 07:57 AM"One place where point goes astray is where you proclaim that private schools can pick and choose who goes there. Yes, they can but they cannot discriminate as you would like to lead everyone to believe."
What does this poster think picking and choosing is? It is discriminating.
Posted by Truth on September 13, 2007 08:16 AMNicholas Couch,
The psychological foundation for the continuing disrespect and misunderstanding is found in an old cliche, altogether too often repeated through the ages: "Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach."
From the time of the fall of the Western Roman Empire, literacy, and the discipline of imparting the knowledge of HOW TO think, has been totally secondary to the ideas of conquering; ruling and lording over others; getting and keeping the most, while seeing to it that everyone else gets as little as possible of the leftovers; and indoctrinating children as to WHAT TO think, and when and where to think it, as "all that's necessary".
Some modern examples may be found in the area of CSAP, for instance. Teach to the test. Make the point of getting the right marks in the right little boxes; and that's the "measure of teaching performance". So Forth. (You can certainly provide a host of similar examples for yourself.)
Public Education still strives to keep alive the premise that one should learn HOW to think. And, this is a never ending struggle with those who want nothing more than a docile, and obedient, response to indoctrination as to WHAT to think, and the corollarys of when and where one is allowed to think it.
For those parents who want their children to learn HOW, the public school is still doing its best, even with all the interference and opposition it has from the other side. For those parents who want their children to learn only WHAT TO think, believe, and parrot throughout the rest of their lives, the private and parochial schools are there, claiming the idea of "better education".
I opened the doors on my first teaching job 60 years ago September 1st. And I have had experience in both public and private school areas. My support is always on the side of the EDUCATORS, having seen what the INDOCTRINATORS usually produce. If you want your child educated for the 21st Century, and beyond, get out there and get busy supporting your PUBLIC SCHOOL and its TEACHERS!
(As you do already, Mr. Couch, of course.).
Posted by Old Grouch on September 13, 2007 08:37 AMCanIGetAnAmen: It used to drive me nuts when our kids' teachers motivated them with pieces of candy and pizza parties, glad to hear I'm not alone. It reminded me of training the dogs to Sit, Stay & Heel. :-)
Posted by Kathy Hansen on September 13, 2007 10:05 AMKathy, Not only are the teachers rewards candy and toys. My 5th graders teacher hands out play money and the students can save them to purchase things.
The 1st week of school someone stole 3 dollars from someone. The teacher knew who it was but couldn't blame it on the kid. He was the one who had lots of dollars and the one acting up in school all week.So she handed out small pieces of paper and said whoever did it just write, I did it, on the paper no name she just wanted someone to confess and did not want to know who.Well no one fessed up and she took 3 dollars away from everyone in the class. i wrote a note asking her to either keep track of how many dollars each kid has or do away with the program.
She called me and said she was trying to teach a lesson to the class about honesty. I told her that if a child is already stealing and letting everyone else suffer the consequences then he or she has no moral compass and has now been taught everyone else pays for stealing and lieing.
Now she also has started a new program where she gives the class a percentage everyday calculating behavior and homework completion.If the class scores 92% or above for 20 days straight they get a special party.
Well yesterday the class scored 72% and now are back to square one.I'm getting a little tired of this crap. My child and every child in that class should be graded on what he or she accomplishes not the whole class. My children have never missed a homework assignment and should not be graded on whether someone else did theirs or not.
I think this is going to far. These kids are going into middle school next year.They need to be taught self control and personal responsibility.
I'm going to talk to the teacher and principal about this . I think it is getting out of hand.
My daughter was in 4th grade last year and had a one in a million teacher. She did not have a reward system. She set the expectations and command her classromm that thrived on praise and self pride. That is how a classroom should be run.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 13, 2007 11:01 AMCan I get an AMEN, Aint Socialism great?
Posted by on September 13, 2007 11:56 AMAMEN, this in your last post stands out:
These kids are going into middle school next year.They need to be taught self control and personal responsibility.
Yes, they do - at home!
Teachers rarely create bad behavior, but they often inherit it. I don't particularly like the idea of using treats for motivation either, but I am loath to meddle in or micromanage the methods a given teacher finds effective at controlling disruptive behavior in the classroom. The job we ask teachers to do is hard enough without requiring them also to teach what ought to have been taught at home.
Posted by Nicholas Couch on September 13, 2007 12:00 PMOG
AHA! A teacher. Anthony M....ski comes to mind. You remind me of him very much. I was one of his problems.
I am unhappy to see people fighting the CSAP or defending it for the wrong reasons.
CSAP is supposed to be a way to evaluate progress. We have an obligation to the kids to give them an education. Like anything generalized for too large a group it is not doing what it's supposed to do. We can make changes but first we have to get the managers and the professional problem makers to take a hike.
Simple list of the problems and the goals:
Goal: Reading proficiency
Problem: too few kids come to school with the intention to learn or any experience with books. TV and computers give them entertainment and information without their needing to read.
Solution Find teaching methods that work by asking teachers with experience in the field. Don't go to professional experts. Ask teachers.
Goal: Mathematical proficiency
Problem: Calculators and other helps make it unnecessary for kids to learn the number skills that develop into arithmetic and calculation skills.
Solution: Burn all calculators? Forbid them in schools? No and maybe. How about we ask the teachers, again, and, again look to those whose experience is in a classroom not a boardroom. We might try to convince parents to play counting games with kids where they actually handle counters and see physical representations of numbers. Rote memorization of the simple rules of arithmetic and the multiplication table will give them the skills. Using them is up to the kids. Testing in math might be even harder because some people get nervous when forced to use math. In 1969 I was a student at the Colorado School of Mines taking Calculus and other high level courses. I applied for a clerk's job at Hesteds and took their simple math test. I had been in the world of higher math for so long I missed two problems. Didn't get the job. We need a way to develop the logical and linear skills the kids will need as they grow older.
These are the two basic fields that are evaluated so we now know what direction to move and might even have a few good ideas. One thing that is evident is that parental involvement is necessary for kids to take full advantage of school.
Evaluating these skills shouldn't take days. I suspect the reason it does take so long is that every person on the committee that invented the test had a hobby horse to ride and stuffed it in. Let's quote Alton Brown, "Stuffing is evil." and suggest changes.
Good teachers would be able to select, from resources already in place, available books and articles. Students can demonstrate their ability to read by, (theatrical GASP) reading and answering questions about what they've read.
What about someone finding out which books and drilling the kids with that in hand? The kids will learn it backwards but they will learn it. They will know, from rote memorization, what the passage says, what the words mean and will, despite the cheat, have learned comprehension by knowing the answer and working backwards. There will be many different passages at each level. (keep preaching or other coercion out of it...no religious passages, no Rush Limbaugh and no New York Times).
For math let the teachers from all over the country invent the problems. Pick a team to select the problems for the tests. Also, for older students, there is a need to explain the relevance of math. Today's kids see little need for math skills because they know there will always be a calculator available. What we need to communicate, and there are as many ways to do this as there are math teachers, is make them realize that math is its own language and the mental steps for mathematics are the same ones used in almost every problem solving situation. I used to tell 8th grade boys to ring in a copy of the Sunday ad that had something they wish they could buy. Demonstrating, with blackboard examples as well as verbal discussion, the actual meaning of things like buy 3 get 1 free. (tires) Second one half price.(Cassette tapes--it was a long time ago) Kids would race one another to bring up a paper to the blackboard and explain why one offer was a better deal than the other. Judgments were not limited to numbers. "Man they don't have anything you want to buy." It was a weekly event. Every Monday they would come in and bring an ad, or pick up one from the pile I supplied. I'm not even a formally trained teacher. Just think what teachers with training can do.
Lastly, and I will beat this drum until the goat comes back for his hide, give teachers immunity from prosecution for non-physical discipline in the classroom. Until there is more tort reform we need this to put teachers in charge of their classrooms. There are some turkeys out there but there are so many more eagles if we would let them but fly. Trust teachers.
I hated the one who dumped my briefcase in 1963 when no one, much less a girl, carried one to school. You piled your books in your arms and made moon eyes at the boys to carry them for you. Today I thank God for him every night. If you really want the good teachers to stay give them back their classrooms.
Mr. Couch, I have taught my children well. They know what is expected of them and my husband and I expectations are high. They also know I will not tolerate any bad behavior of any kind or disrespecting a teacher or disrupting class in any way. They will answer to me and they know these rules that I have laid down are non-negotiatable.
My problem with all the rewards is ,I think the school is undermining parents like me who have taught their children how to behave and achieve in school.Since the are so well behaved they are rewarded with candy or toys all the time for behavior and doing the work that I have prepared them for. I have taught them their reward for hard work is a good grades and we praise them for putting their best effort into school.Their reward is self pride and knowing they did their best and their parents are proud of them.Not candy and toys.
I can't be responsible for other parents who don't place the education of their children high on the list of priorities.My children's education is cheapened by these nonsense reward systems.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 13, 2007 01:40 PMIf Dan2 and Charles B are either the yin or the yang, then OG and AllenC are either the Pin or the Fang.
Posted by Allen Campbell on September 13, 2007 02:10 PMMomma y,
Unfortunately, you are very much an example of those in the minority posting here - in several other lines dealing with Teaching as well as this one. But! OH! How I wish I had had you as a parent in my classrooms years ago!
Everyone has his, or her, favorite anecdote, which is offered as "evidence" of the general point of view concerning Teaching and Teachers held by the individual, and expected to convince everyone else of just how "right", or "valid", or "perfectly descriptive" of both the profession as a whole and the object of the anecdote as well.
Well, turn about is fair play. Or at least so I've heard.
A Master's Degree, and a State Certificate, are a pair of rather expensive credentials to begin with. In general, they represent a number of hours of time, effort, and energy, as well as a comparatively sizeable outlay of just plain old cold cash. Then too, they also represent a number of years past High-School and adolescence, both chronologically and otherwise, spent in acquiring them. So, it is reasonable to expect the person presenting them is an adult, and also basically competent and capable in the areas where the credentials state such competence and capability.
Imagine yourself, then, sitting down in the auditorium with a group of other adults, at the Orientation Sessions for your new year of employment as a School Teacher. You have had previous experience, and Certification; as well as the background of the current credentials themselves; and, all in all, you are looking forward to a new year, in another District in another State.
Up to the microphone walks the predominant member of the School Board - in this case the Secretary, who has 3 youngsters of his own in the District, in various Grades. He opens his remarks by informing you that:
1. His religion forbids tobacco, coffee, tea, and any form of alcoholic beverages. Therefore, teachers are forbidden to have a coffeepot in the Lounge, or in the cafeteria; and while they must eat with their home room classes, they may not bring personal thermoses of any one of the forbidden beverages to school; but must be seen to drink only milk, fruit juice, or water.
2. Since his religion forbids any consumption of alcoholic beverages, Teachers are subject to disciplinary action should they be reported to have been seen in ANY FORM OF LIQUOR DISPENSING establishment, including restaurants with bars. Such disciplinary action may be immediate dismissal in the case of those on non-tenure contract. Tenured Teachers are subject to the process for revocation of Contract specified, and dismissal thereafter.
3. NO SMOKING, or other use of any form of tobacco at any time, is allowed at any place where the children might see it. Those who use tobacco are to make every effort to cease; and, in the case of non-tenure contracts, if smoking, or other use of tobacco, is continued beyond the end of the current year's contract, the contract will not be renewed. Tenured Teachers are to take notice that their use of tobacco is also to come to a halt, with the same possibility of action to revoke tenure, and dismissal, as with the use of alcohol if they, too, are not completely free of tobacco use by the end of this year's term.
Since Teachers are always to be examples of the highest moral standards, they are expected to adopt these rules and regulations in every aspect, immediately, or face the consequences. And, to ensure that these rules are carried out, Teachers will be subject to examination by a School Board approved Doctor in the event of any suspicion that these rules are not being obeyed, especially with respect to use of alchohol and tobacco.
From there, we segue into Formal Introduction of the District Superintendent, the Principal of the School, and the rest of the opening day of Teacher Orientation - a great deal of which is couched with much the same insulting and contemptuous disregard for the Teacher's own integrety as the opening remarks by the Secretary of the School Board.
Fantasy? Didn't Happen? OH! YES! IT DID! In a District close to the Metropolitan area, a little over 45 years ago.
Yet, the Teachers were - and are - to be faulted for attempting redress of this kind of thing by way of the then Teachers Organization, the CEA - and/or by way of a Union today.
And their protests to the County Superintendant, as well as to the whole School Board at a regular meeting, were met with a series of petty reprisals - such as extra bus duty; extra duty in other classrooms, while the regular teacher had time off for special activities; extra time after school assigned to the District sports programs; etc.
And the Teachers were - and are - to be treated as less than 2nd Class Citizens in all other ways as well when they complained about the areas of insult and imposition exemplified here, at a regular meeting of the School Board as a whole.
And, the Teachers were also held at fault for any of the pupils' disrespect, misbehavior, and/or disregard of classroom authority engendered by this approach to the Teachers.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 13, 2007 02:30 PMThen, we hear all the reasons for today's attitude of 2nd Class - or even much lower - Citizenship status for Teachers. And one is supposed to wonder why we have problems.
Just a few words of advice for all you fault finders: Instead of complaining about matters in a way that shows your total ignorance, prejudice, and inability to even want to learn, READ "momma y", and others like her; and then offer some CONSTRUCTIVE ideas for a change.
Sorry, those last 2 paragraphs didn't post earlier. But they were intended.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 13, 2007 02:37 PMnick couch why did you ever have kids if some teacher spends more time with your child than you do?
I feel sorry for your daughter that her main influence in life will be some teacher and not her parnet.
Dear (gutless) anonymous writer:
My daughter gets up around 7am to get ready for school. I'm normally up by then, and most days I'm still home when she heads to the bus stop around 8. I'm fortunate to work from home quite a bit. That's one hour for me.
She's in school until around 4pm, so that makes the score 8 hours for the teachers, and 1 for me. Most days she'll have one or more activities after school. Call it an hour and a half on average. Score's still 8 to 1. This gets us close to 6pm, and bedtime's around 9:30. (Remember, I said waking hours.) So that's maybe another four hours for me, assuming I make it home for dinner, which I usually do. Call it 8 to 5 on a typical weekday during the school year.
You got some kind of problem with that?
Nicholas Couch, What is a parnet that 4:57 was talking about? LOL
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 13, 2007 05:34 PMOG
I suspect you might know of a certain 6th grade teacher at Gust Elementary in 1963.
I respect teachers very much and have no use for the union. I've mentioned before that I tried to switch to education when I was working my way through school. The very first education class consisted of the union representatives taking over a 90 minute class and "informing" us how much we needed the union especially if we wanted to get through the first few years as a teacher.
A very strong insult to all and followed by a continuous line of them in the education classes. The end result was I decided to be a full time cab driver..better money less danger.
I believe the problem started with the lack of teacher authority in the classroom but it was aided by a society that is afraid to take or assign any responsibility, credit or authority to students. The "we teach them all" attitude happened just as more parents entered the work force and left kids home alone after school. It also happened at the same time as the great expansion of the social services program. One education class emphasized that we were teachers, not parents and if a kid came in dirty or ill dressed we were not to interfere. Today we threaten teachers with lawsuits if they fail to report a shadow of suspicion . Look at the media pointing fingers in the case of the boy who was starved to death. More and more often they start the article with a variation of "teachers failed to ..."
There is much blame to go around and lazy teachers are easy to identify. It's safe to do nothing in most cases. You mention this in your example too.
Teachers are human beings and they had respect taken from them by the unions and other authorities who removed authority and accountability from the classroom to protect from lawsuits leveled by lazy or blind parents who refuse to take the time to require anything from their kids except that they go watch TV in their room and be quiet while Mommy and Daddy are busy. I sympathize with those parents. 8 year olds, and most kids, demand attention. They can talk enough to completely exhaust you. Just talk. Food, clothes and all aspects of life get tumbled around. A nice neat quilting corner has more crayons and homework papers than thread. Yesterday's parents weren't prepared for their life to change with the tech revolution. Few planned to have both parents working. Fewer still were prepared for the increased costs of living and the changes in our society. Financial pressures and a rapid increase in change confused many people. Sometimes we still are confused.
The kids who had difficulty learning finally had people paying primary attention to their needs. It did come at the expense of the teaching systems that helped the majority of kids. The top down nature of the school system along with the stiff seniority system meant it was inevitable that the teachers would be ordered not asked about changes in the systems and programs. Some were given next to no time to study the materials. Others, trapped between what they knew would fail and direct orders tried to make it work. Some were too new to to be able to do much more than keep a few days ahead of their classes. As the programs proved complete failures the "experts" blamed the teachers, the students, the parents and, I suppose, the press that did the printing job.
Experienced teachers tried to return to proven methods for the majority while trying new methods for the others. Learning disabilities had not been widely diagnosed and little or no attention was paid to them. The same kids failed to learn year after year whether the official record reflected this or not
momma y,
No. By that time, I had moved over into my alternate field as a full time head shrinker. And, aside from a few with whom I had grown up - who went on to their own success in the classroom, or administrative, field - I had lost track of DPS teachers for the most part. I got involved with the "alternative education" - read "Hippie", if you will - movement, by way of referral of a client; and then did some development work, along the lines of how to Incorporate, set up Boards, qualify for various Colorado standings and status, and such like. But direct efforts had moved onward to lectures in High-School and College psychology classes by invitation, and some courses for graduate Residents in Psychiatry, as well.
In my earlier "horrible example" I left out experience with special education, which was the field for which I was hired in that school. But, that's really something of a book, all by itself. A Board dominated by a religious nut and efforts to deal with matters such as dyslexia, by trying to persuade parents to utilize therapists in the field, contributed to hasten the exodus from the public school classroom.
I have a very soft spot in my heart for Unions. I grew up with the late President of the Denver Teachers Union; and a more dedicated educator I have never known. Teachers have at least attained a level slightly above 2nd Class Citizenshp thanks much to his efforts, and the efforts of his associates. And the late Herrick Roth - founder of the Denver Teachers Union - was a friend, and mentor, in my life.
I am really sorry you had a negative experience in that area. But, again, I say: OH! HOW I wish I had had you as a parent in my classrooms back then!
Have a good evening, and a fine day tomorrow.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 13, 2007 09:45 PMHmm
Half of my last post evaporated.
I'm not sure I'm such a great parent. I sent my grand daughter's teacher a note telling her what we did this summer and where there had been progress. Since my little one is a special ed kid. (momma was hiding from social services for two years to avoid having this one put in foster care for neglect. At 4 1/2 she wasn't walking, could only repeat words not speak independently and no potty training. She was terrified by any noise, any disruption, and any sudden movements.. I dropped a glass of milk in the kitchen and she dropped to the floor in a tight ball and started crying. Six months later she dropped a can of soda in a store and asked for the paper towels to clean it up.) She's just starting second grade at 8 1/2 so we keep in close communication with the school. Right now the teacher is doing analog clock times so I took the clock from the kitchen and we played with it for three days. I made about fifty sets of clock hands and sent them to her teacher in a box with the clock hands and paper plates with a hex marker so she could have the kids make their own clocks if that will work with her plan. See. I meddle.
I taught in New York while I was a nun. 8th grad math was my favorite class although I taught everything but languages. 42 students...all male, in a general math class.. Had there been one female in there it would have been chaos. That experience is why I wanted to teach.
By the time I was studying education (1975-78) the union had become very political and that is probably why there was a bad feeling. I have had no good experiences with unions but I agree they were necessary. If they would stick to representing their members they might have more of them today.
Point of the post last night, still out there somewhere in cyberhold, was that the schools tried to be all things to all people and the union changed from representing the teachers to gaining "education power." Teachers and students were, and still are, on the bottom of the agenda for action. Lip service they get. As the legal situation got worse, parents gave up their responsibility and their authority to the "community". Discipline was forbidden because Social Services would "put you in jail for spanking a kid." Communication and respect in the family took a distant second place to individuality and TV. Pop psychology and the cult of the celebrity made easy excuses for giving up without trying. Many did.
It is the same today. Fear has become the justification for "no exception" policies in public places. Too many parents fear all authority, especially their own, because if you have authority you have responsibility and that can be dangerous. Many have tried to arm wrestle the octopus of multi-leveled administration and been threatened with "consequences". NO specifics... Just the word is usually enough. Those who want to fight the wrongs in education can't even figure out who is in charge or how to reach him. The teacher they can find.
Congratulations on your changes and choices. I've had my life direction totally turned around three times but I have had a great life and I still enjoy being me. Which brings me to our family BBQ. (Gotta torment Stan) Party's Sunday. We'll be doing the rest of the pork prep today and starting on the spice mix for the chickens. Last count was 80 people expected in my back yard! All of them were told to bring garden gloves too. Family tradition that I took over when my husband and I left the road.Each member of the family can invite one friend. The families can invite both neighbor families, one on each side, and everyone donates the food to be cooked to the cook...me. ill not be posting again until Monday. Have a good weekend. I make up the spice mixes and supervise the cooking now. My neighbor promised two bushels of fresh corn and there are three on my back porch.
Posted by momma y on September 14, 2007 06:38 AM