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Where will they stop?

Friday, November 2 at 12:01 AM

When will people realize that the issue of abortion is a personal issue. Beliefs cannot be forced on people whether it be religious or political. The people who are protesting the construction company for getting the contract to expand Planned Parenthood are close-minded, yet very creative (“Construction exec’s home target of abortion protests,” Oct. 29).
Where will they stop? Will they protest the office supply store that Planned Parenthood uses, the computer shop, or the restaurants that they eat at? It’s just silly. It’s sad when religion causes conflict. Maybe I should be used to it by now.

Mark McCabe, Denver

READER COMMENTS

The best way to think about abortion is as a jurisdictional matter. If you believe that abortion is a sin (the sin of murder for example) that's fine - sin is an offense against God. And abortion occurs in god's jurisdiction, not man's. People can let themselves be confused by the fact that the act, though it may occur in Colorado, is nonetheless not in Colorado's jurisdiction. Just as it is not against Colorado law to commit an offense in Kansas (yes, including murder - it violates no Colorado statute to commit murder in Kansas) so too it is not against Colorado law to commit an offense against God. Kansans and God are perfectly capable of taking care of matters that occur within their jurisdictions without any help from outsiders.

To fight abortion, pray that those in a position to consider it will reject that option. Prayer is by far the most powerful and only effective tool here. Turning to big brother government and men in black robes and blue uniforms to do God's work is the ultimate heresy.

Posted by Liam on November 2, 2007 03:42 AM

Liam - you are trying to use common sense against a group which would rather see a health care group servicing predominately low income wome, which happens to perform abortions as part of a full service practice (according to the statistics, less than 10% of the their patients are there for abortions & Planned Parenthood does provide counseling for alternatives) go out of business than provide cancer screenings (for both men & women) testing & treatment for STDs, care during pregnancies, and even fertility counseling because less than 1 patient in 10 might actually have decided that an abortion is best for them. Meanwhile, these self righteous hypocrites who choose to ignore the children once they are born (or there wouldn't be ANY children waiting to be adopted in this country) are also some of the folks who scream the loudest about parents who need governmental assistance - and also do their damnedest to make sure access to birth control is limited. This group, which professes to be Christian, picks & chooses which parts of Christ's teachings - not to mention which parts of the Constitution (they also profess to be patriots) to observe. After all, their religious beliefs are better than anyone else's - and you must follow them (sounds Christiano-fascist to me).

Posted by Mary on November 2, 2007 04:30 AM

The decision to seek an abortion belongs to the two people involved, and no one else. If the male has split, the female is the only one who makes the decision. Period. Everyone else stay the hell out of the way. Hooray for Planned Parenthood!

Posted by BeBop on November 2, 2007 05:40 AM

Pro-lifers are bogus, racist, and corrupt. There is no outcry from these loonies regarding Bush's vaporization of Iraqi babies. Bush has the same mind-set as FDR. FDR wouldn't unleash the atom bomb on Germans because they were white people. Bush has unleasehed Rx drugged troops (PTSD suppressors-mind altering) and chemcial weapons (white phosprous-WILLY PETER) on unsuspecting Iraqis in residential neighborhoods, just like Saddam did. I saw WILLY PETER used in Vietnam during my 3 deployments there. It burned through Vietnamese skin and bones. I would prefer to see the pro-lifers calling for Bush to tried in an international court for war crimes, just like we intended for Hitler.

Posted by 40acresandmymuleandNAMvetbennies on November 2, 2007 07:02 AM

they you are going to really enjoy the force upon everyone government health care that the dopeocrats are trying to ram up everyones ass.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 07:35 AM

Mark,

" Beliefs cannot be forced on people whether it be religious or political." First of all, it is beliefs that cause the problems in every aspect of our lives be they religious or political. People cannot seem to understand that beliefs, most often, are unsupported by factual evidence and many times ignore the truth in the zealousness of those who propagandize it.

Simply put, belief is not truth. Belief is based on faith, which is a selffulfilling aspiration, truth is based and fact. And, it is fatual truth that should rule humankinds thinking which, believe it or not, is what Jesus preached more about than any other thing. The truth shall set you free, not your belief will set you free.

There have been more tragic and egregious harm done in the name of a belief in the entire history of human kind on this planet than any and all other causes.

No belief has the right to subvert truth to advance it's own agenda. Let your belief rule your life and let others live their lives free of the interference of your beliefs and, let the chips fall where they may, lest we become the same as the enemy we abhor and the tyranny of one belief over all others brings about the destruction of the freedom, justice and liberty we cherish.

Posted by Allen Campbell on November 2, 2007 08:04 AM

Yes it is personal... personally killing a baby.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 08:06 AM

abortion is nothing but murder, if you do not want children then keep you legs closed and pants on.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 08:11 AM

If the government has the constitutional power to prohibit you from having an abortion then it also has the constitutional power to force you to have an abortion.

Perhaps it is best to leave government out of this and we should just leave the decision to the woman and her doctor.

Posted by D on November 2, 2007 08:14 AM

Bebop

Another misguided and heartless advocate of child killing. For your information abortion is between the abortionist and mostly the baby he is mudering you fool. Another twisted mind not at work. where were this inhuman sickos spawned? A sad commentary on our upsidedown society.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 08:19 AM

Doing something to realistically stop unwanted pregnancies is the answer. Sex Ed and available birth control. Countries with the lowest abortion rates are those that provide these services. If the anti-choice people really wanted to stop abortion and weren't just using this as a political tool then they would support sex ed and birth control. Sadly I don't believe there real motive is to stop abortions.

Posted by x on November 2, 2007 08:20 AM

Lotsa "justifying" goin' on here.
You really want to be on the side of the murderer or the innocent baby? It's better they are killed than have to go through the adoption process? Really? Why stop there? Let's give the ones who had to go through the awful birthing process 14 days to find a home, or they get put to sleep, just like the cats and dogs in shelters. We pretend to be so worried about kids in other countries, but won't lift a finger to help the ones here. Maybe you can stop having abortions, we'll send those ones over to replace the ones Bush has bombed.

Posted by aliciala on November 2, 2007 08:54 AM

I just don't understand Allen Campbell's post. The only way we human beings can arrive at facts is through belief, the belief that this is a fact or that is a fact. There indeed are some people who "believe" that they know what the facts are and that others who "believe" differently are wrong, but that is based on their "belief" as to what the facts are. It would be great if our brains came preloaded with all the facts but alas that is not the case. We are left to decide with these deficient brains of ours what the facts are, that is, what we believe the facts are.

I think that Liam's reference to jurisdictional matter is helpful. For me, there is merit in distinguishing sin and crime. Society, through government, has decided that certain acts which certain religions call sin are crimes. And it has decided that other acts which certain religions call sin are not crimes.

Posted by Truth on November 2, 2007 09:00 AM

Surely even the most rabidly self-righteous of the so-called "pro-lifers" must realize that any governmental prohibition of abortion would have no more effect on that medical procedure than the 18th amendment had on the sale and consumption of alcohol.Actually it would likely have generally the same effect which is first to drive the practice underground and increase the cost both monetarily and physically for those wanting the procedure and second to create a large and lucrative black market enriching those who have no qualms about providing "illegal" services. It might also create a market niche for those who'd provide package deals for travel overseas to countries where abortion is a safe, legal medical option kind of like in those halcyon leave it to beaver days.I'm once again bemused by those who'll scream, jump up and down and scream bloody murder about a woman exercising her legal option in what must be the most difficult decision any of them will ever face, but who'll likely voice unthinking support for a war which sees high explosives dropped into residential neighborhoods. Murder is murder. Try your sophistries on someone who's not seen the results of high explosives and high velocity metal on the human body.The screamers reaffirm for me the essential correctness of those who assert that pro-lifers believe that the right to life begins at conception, but ends at birth.

Posted by davis X. Machina on November 2, 2007 09:16 AM

I find the hypocrisy of the religious right absolutely pathetic on this matter.

Outlawing abortion isn't going to decrease abortions...it is just going to make them less safe.

Posted by jay on November 2, 2007 09:26 AM

Its a shame that Mrs. McCabe didn't abort her soon-to-be blathering son.

It's murder folks!

Posted by on November 2, 2007 09:27 AM

you can't be pro-life and pro-war

Posted by on November 2, 2007 09:28 AM

This matter has been devisive for millenia and we aren't going to resolve it here. It must be stated as fact (sorry, Truth) that some women have choosen, over the years, to abort their pregnancies. It isn't going to stop because someone makes up a law saying it's illegal. The only people this kind of action would really hurt is those who can't afford to go elsewhere to have a safer abortion. Ultimately, this decision can only made by the woman and she must deal with matters concerning her conscience. The rest of the people, and especially the men, should either be supportive of her choice or stay the hell out of it.

Posted by Stan B on November 2, 2007 09:34 AM

Jay, your argument is irrelevent. Abortion cannot be made safe. The baby always dies.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 09:41 AM

Well,in the interest of not seeing this thread hijacked,I should think that an abortion is (to the adult party) like watching a nuclear explosion up close.To the junior participant it's like being in one....40 Acres is wrong about FDR.Germany WAS the intended target of the Manhattan Project,but surrendered unconditionally two months before the first bomb was ready.
All that having been said,it's very clear that from an individual rights standpoint,reproductive choice IS the preferred scenario-by far.The flaw,perhaps a fatal one,in current reproductive law is that it guarantees that choice only to one third of the people involved.Another third can only stand by,legally voiceless,to pay later on,in money for the unwanted or mourning for the wanted.The lives of the last third hang in the balance.
The net legal consequence of Roe has been a patchwork of staggeringly illogical domestic law whose constitutionality is on a par with that of the worst of the Jim Crow statutes.The net social consequence of Roe has been a dreadful epidemic of child abuse that government has by policy not only encouraged,but in a decades-long fit of the most breathtaking cynicism used to extract trillions of dollars from the public for purposes unrelated to the common good.
The best interim fix,in this ex-social worker's opinion,is for the Supreme Court to rule Roe unconstitutional.Then we can have a good long acrimonious debate about the whole thing and get a better,more workable legislated solution.

Posted by Jimminy on November 2, 2007 09:44 AM

The only way abortion should be legal is if the woman's tubes were tied at the same time, so that she could never conceive another innocent to be murdered again.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 09:53 AM

Truth, if you truly belive that belief establishes fact, then all fact is produced by belief. In other words if you believe the sky is green it becomes a fact or that water runs uphill or the sun rises in the west. No, No and again No. Fact, a thing that is really true, does not depend on belief, which is an opinion, but on the empirical reality of it's existence. You can chose to believe IN it or not but, that belief does not in any way change the truth of it's existence.

Posted by Allen Campbell on November 2, 2007 10:06 AM

Folks..I'll say it again...outlawing abortion isn't going to decrease abortions...it will just make it less safe.

Considering the futility and down right counterproductive nature of the anti-choice position....can you not see the problem here?

Posted by jay on November 2, 2007 10:12 AM

Stan B

I thought you were a man. I guess I was mistaken. You sound like a feminst.
We men love and support abortion because we can throw a few hundred dollars at our girlfriends and wifes and tell them get rid of it or we'll leave you. I should say "Immoral" men. It's a real convinience for you or should I say a non-feminist guys You think it's been millenia since 1973. Before the suffragette movement at the beginning of the 20th century men would force women to have abortions because woman and children were considered property. Woman were able to abolish quite few of these abuses and received the right to vote. If you are going to comment on this issue study your history first and not the one you make up as you go along. "Safer Abortions" you say.Since planned parenthood hides all their records they don't tell you of the butchery they inflict on quite a few of their patients that are later reported to their families and the psychological damage women suffer afterwords.
Is that like hiring a professional hit man to take someone out.
Stan are you sure you don't have a uterus?

Posted by on November 2, 2007 10:12 AM

Stop confusing people with logic Jay.

Posted by just sayin' on November 2, 2007 10:14 AM

10:12,

No matter what you believe, whether or not to abort a pregnancy is ultimately the woman's choice. You just can't accept that reality but that's the way it is.

Posted by Stan B on November 2, 2007 10:26 AM

Jay, I'll say it again. Your argument is irrelevent. Abortion cannot be made safe. The baby always dies. There is no such thing as a safe abortion.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 10:27 AM

lol...it's common knowledge that facts have a well known liberal bias

Posted by jay on November 2, 2007 10:29 AM

Good to see the anti-life apologists are out in force today. Don't forget your tinfoil hats.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 10:32 AM

And cruton, since you can't stop it...you might as well agree with the majority of americans that want it legal, safe and rare.

Posted by jay on November 2, 2007 10:32 AM

Some people just don't understand the innate right of fundie pigs to control everyone else. They consider abortion murder, and they wholeheartedly support the killing of Iraqi children and civilians. They are morally superior, and it is up to them to decide who can live and who can die. You must accept that if you ever hope to reach the level where you too have the right to make decisions for others.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 10:33 AM

"I find the hypocrisy of the religious right absolutely pathetic on this matter.

Outlawing abortion isn't going to decrease abortions...it is just going to make them less safe."

"Jay, your argument is irrelevent. Abortion cannot be made safe. The baby always dies."

"Folks..I'll say it again...outlawing abortion isn't going to decrease abortions...it will just make it less safe.

Considering the futility and down right counterproductive nature of the anti-choice position....can you not see the problem here?"

This is why nothing productive ever comeas about on these kinds of issues, both sides have their trenches dug in.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 10:33 AM

Stan B, whose choice it is is irrelevent. The abortion ends the life of a baby. It is a deliberate act. It is therefore murder. You just can't accept that reality, but that's the way it is.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 10:36 AM

Stan B
The Jewish holucaust was a reality also but we didn't accept that and people of conscious will never except this atrocity against the most innocent of humanity and will continue to oppose and expose the barbaric pratice of abortion. This is the second holocust.

It is not a question of what I believe but of what is right and wrong and you obviously don' care if it is wrong.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 10:38 AM

"And cruton, since you can't stop it...you might as well agree with the majority of americans that want it legal, safe and rare."

Sounds like you would have fit right in in the pre-antebellum South.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 10:42 AM

My point, once again and never refuted, is that the anti-choice position is simply counterproductive since they can't stop abortions...but won't acknowledge that if they get there way the only thing that changes is the safety of the procedure in regards to the health of the woman.

It's tough to spin that hypocrisy into something decent.

Posted by jay on November 2, 2007 10:54 AM

Actually jay, abortion will be stopped. All it will take is one more justice.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 10:59 AM

That's another one of you pro-abort lies you cur.
Maybe I would have fit in the south back then as an abolistionist fighting slavery another inhumane tragedy.
You would fit right in Nazi Germany were they also thought it was their right to kill Jews.
"Pre-antebellum", that's a laugh!

Posted by on November 2, 2007 11:00 AM

I'd like to ask Mark McCabe why it's a personal issue one minute before the child is born and not two minutes later?

He also says, "It's sad when religion causes conflict." Although I am a Catholic, my opposition to abortion has no more to do with my religion than my opposition to murder in general. Atheists oppose murder, and logically should oppose abortion too. It's unfortunate that the anti-abortion position has become so strongly linked with religion; Christians themselves deserve some of the blame.

Posted by Larry Ruane on November 2, 2007 11:07 AM

Somehow I don't think Hillary will be appointing the justice the far wrong would like.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 11:08 AM

10:59,

You're wrong. Abortion will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Posted by Stan B on November 2, 2007 11:08 AM

Let us presume that someone were to say that blacks are subhuman and that killing a black is like killing a fetus. A personal choice. The answer is that blacks are not subhuman. They are real humans. The question is whether the same answer applies to fetuses.

Posted by freethinker on November 2, 2007 11:13 AM

Here are some things to think about.First I think the definition of death use to be if there are no brain waves or heart beat so if a fetus has brain waves and a heart beat it would be a life.To kill it would be murder.Second,if someone comes up to a women with the intent to punch her in the stomach and kill her 5,6,7,8,9 month old fetus and the fetus dies.What crime has been committed? It can't be murder if the woman is allowed to abort the fetus.

Posted by An American on November 2, 2007 11:30 AM

Stan B. says,
"No matter what you believe, whether or not to abort a pregnancy is ultimately the woman's choice. You just can't accept that reality but that's the way it is."

If that is the way it is it is wrong.

My girlfriend of two years informed me she was 5 weeks pregnant . We were caught off guard but both happy with the news and started planning our family. I went to the Lamaze classes and took off work to be with her at the doctors appointments. I picked up the baby name book. Life was good.

Then everything fell apart.

About the time she just started showing she tells me she met someone and is in love with him and wants to break up.After days of trying to convince her otherwise, she moves out. She swears the baby is mine and we agree to be civil and arrange joint custody when he is born .I'm devastated but the thought of helping to raise a precious life that we both created soothed my emotions greatly.

You all know what's coming.

The new boyfriend didn't want the "baggage" that came with his new girlfriend and talked her into aborting my unborn son.

I found this out when I went over to take her to the doctor for our appointment and she explained it wasn't necessary anymore.
She said it was her baby and her body and her decision. What I thought didn't matter.

I was ready to raise that kid by myself if needed and was crushed with the news.

It has been more than twenty years and I still think about it almost daily and what could have been.

So Stan B. , where are my rights?

FATHERS SHOULD HAVE A SAY

Posted by on November 2, 2007 11:35 AM

Well here's a new one for you all.

I'm pro life. Why? Abortion IS murder, no matter how you want to justify it. With the advances in medical sciences a fetus is becoming more viable earlier on in a pregnancy.

I'm pro-war. War should be used as a last resort. It is also not un-biblical. "Thou shalt not kill," only refers to murder or the taking of a life without just cause. This is backed by the support of capital punishment and war throughout the OT and the support of war and capital punishment in the NT. Refer to Romans 13:3-5.

I'm pro-choice. Regardless of it being murder or not people will still seek abortion. It should be made legal to at least protect the survivors. Pre and post counseling should also be made mandatory for both the expectant parents. There WILL be issues of guilt afterwords that will need to be dealt with. It may be 1 day afterwords or it may be 1 year afterwords but the guilt issues WILL surface.

Posted by Harry on November 2, 2007 11:36 AM

Stan B. said:

"Abortion will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed."

You could say the same thing for any other crime.

Murder will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Burglary will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Rape will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Assault will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

White-collar crime will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Speeding will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Insider trading will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Fraud will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Kidnapping will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Identity theft will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Child abuse will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Car-jacking will NEVER, EVER be stopped, just outlawed.

Posted by John II on November 2, 2007 11:42 AM

lol...rationalizations for this counterproductive stance abide...but no one is denying that it is indeed...counterproductive.

Posted by jay on November 2, 2007 11:47 AM

OK - I hate to repeat, but if abortion is murder, fine, no argument, but it is murder in God's jurisdiction, not man's. The Holocaust and 14-day infanticide on the other hand are in man's jurisdiction. That's why those analogies fail.

Posted by Liam on November 2, 2007 12:02 PM

I'll give more credence to the anti-abortion movement when they start actually caring about the babies that ARE born. Until that happens, I won't believe for one second that they actually care about ALL human life.

I will say this, not one advocate of choice will ever even attempt to make your choice for you.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 12:03 PM

i find it odd that ALL of the people against abortion in this forum do not post their names as if they are afraid of something , and yet all the people who speak logically DO post their name, just kind of ironic i think.

Abortion should be a choice between a woman and her doctor, all you religious wingnuts should really get a life and worry about your own affairs. if you do not want an abortion dont get onethat is your choice.

so please stop pushing your religion upon others and mind your own business.

your local friendly atheist
Hoimaha C.

Posted by Hoimaha on November 2, 2007 12:06 PM

Since this has been beaten to death and it's obvious neither side is going to budge, I have only two things to say:

1) Why are we even trying to argue with cowards who don't even bother putting their names in? I try to ignore them and you should, too.

2)Prayer: How to do nothing and still think you're helping. So you "pro-life" Christians, keep on praying.

Posted by Roger on November 2, 2007 12:11 PM

11:06
Looks like the truth was to much for you. Once you start using that limited public school education and language of yours was showing you already lost the argument.
Thanks for showing the rest of us decent people what vile people pro-aborts really are.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 12:14 PM

Can't we all just get along?

Let's just teach abstinance and sing Cumbyah, THAT works well, right?

Posted by RickyLee on November 2, 2007 12:20 PM

John II,

10:59 stated, " Actually jay, abortion will be stopped. All it will take is one more justice." Notice he/she said STOPPED, not outlawed.
Right now aborting a pregnacy is not outlawed. Everything you mentioned from murder to car jacking is outlawed. You believe that abortion is murder but your belief should should not trump the law. I'll restate this fact: Outlawing abortion will not STOP it. The wealthy will still find a place and a way to have a safer abortion. Poor women will be left to their own devices, and it ain't pretty.

Posted by Stan B on November 2, 2007 12:21 PM

Roger

Try ignoring this,
Praying in your case or praying for you is hopeless as long as your an advocate of killing helpless innocent children. That makes you and you ilk the biggest cowards of all.

Posted by Not Roger, Thank God on November 2, 2007 12:22 PM

Stan B.,

Legal abortion will be stopped. Of course, humans will always find a way around any law. That's not an excuse not to outlaw it.

Would you make the same argument that since murder still occurs there's no use in outlawing it?

Posted by John II on November 2, 2007 12:33 PM

Isn't is interesting that the Pro-Lifers are all about not killing? Wasn't it a member of the Pro-life cause that killed Dr. David Gunn and other abortion providers...???

Posted by on November 2, 2007 12:33 PM

All these comments from people that will never have to worry about being aborted. How about we ask the aborted and see how THEY feel about it?

Posted by on November 2, 2007 12:38 PM

Stan B.

Your such a compassionate person so concerned about poor women and all.
But he's alright with them killing their own flesh and blood. What a crock! You sound like a most immoral defense lawyers trying to get their guilty client off. Just because something is legal does not make it right.

Just ask the Jews that had laws passwd against them to seal their property,citizenship and finally their lifes. What's the matter with you? Maybe the doctor dropped you on your head when you were born.

John II always makes you look like he's debating an ignorant 10 year old. Your problem is you don't know when to quit and stop making a fool of yourself.

Posted by Not Stan B. Thank God on November 2, 2007 12:42 PM

Pro-lifers, there may come a time where you can stop abortion, but not the young women who have their babies and then throw them out with the trash.

Posted by Lainie on November 2, 2007 12:54 PM

Lanie

That's what you pro-aborts claimed would happen if abortion wasn't legalized.
What pile of sand have you been hiding your head in? Don't you get the news out there in la land. It happens al the time.
So much for that lame argument again.

Post 12:33
Just because some pseudo pro-life person commits a heinous act don't try putting it on all true pro-lifes. That murder should and was punished as anyone who commits murder. Of course you don't think so you hypocrite.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 01:21 PM

Since most of the pro-birthers are men, I always wonder if they have a hidden agenda. Maybe they really spend their days worrying about a clump of cells being scraped out of an unknown woman's uterus, maybe they don`t.

Since they personally do not see the fetus, embryo, baby, child, pre-teen, senior citizen murdered, since these acts are only theoretical to them, why so much anguish over what is not real to them?

Anyone with psychology training what to venture an idea?

The men in my family barely care for unknown born children, they can not understand all this breast pounding over the idea of someone they don`t even know being aborted.

I only want to get some answers as to why grown men get so upset over abortions they never even know happen.

What is the emotional pay off for all this worrying by them.

Why aren`t they standing on street corners handing out condoms if they care so much?

Posted by on November 2, 2007 01:21 PM

A few questions on the subject of abortion. If you don't feel like posting an answer please think of what you want to post. I have been asking these questions for years and one of them had to change because science caught up with conjecture in pre-natal genetic mapping. Other than that I have tried to re-phrase them so they meet current situations and possible futures.

1. A researcher has discovered the genetic marker for homosexuality. He has also developed a way to test for this marker while a woman is pregnant. Would it be moral to abort a child destined to be homosexual? Would you approve of this as a reason for a late term abortion?

2. Animal husbandry has enabled doctors to transport embryos for cattle in rabbits. The embryos are then implanted in cows. This procedure is simple, safe and ends the pregnancy and permits the child to be implanted in another woman. It can also be frozen for later implantation. Should this be substituted for abortion as the child is not killed and the woman is no longer pregnant? If it is substituted and abortion is then made illegal why do you think there would or would not be illegal abortions?

3. A very stiff child support law is enacted federally. DNA samples will be run for all unsupported children. If either parent is not living with or paying support to the child it will be federally possible not only to attach paychecks but to attach and sell assets to provide financial support for the children. If a woman wishes to surrender her parental rights she may do so without penalty as may a father if the mother has already done so. Money distributed by the guardians of these children will be accounted for by outside auditors. What methods or means do we need to make use of to support children already born.

4. Another stiff child support law is passed. It grants the child the right to support from the father unless the father surrenders his parental rights prior to the birth of the child or within 30 days of notice of the birth. A man may only make use of this law if he also has a vasectomy. Fair or unfair?

5. The stiff child support law above is changed. The woman seeking child support may only seek such support if she has never had an abortion. If she has aborted a child in the past she may not collect any child support unless she was married to the father or has her tubes tied within 30 days of delivery. She may surrender her parental rights at any time in which case the father may be sued for support. Fair or unfair?

6. A foolproof and relatively safe, same as the birth control pill, method of birth control is developed for young women. It is almost 100% effective. It must be administered to girls before they begin menstruating. There is a 2% chance of infertility for those on this medication longer than 10 years. Other side effects are rare and are the same both in severity and percentage as using the birth control pill. It totally prevents the release of an egg so there is no chance of pregnancy at all. As a bonus it doesn't seem to combine with smoking to increase the danger. Would you want your daughter to use it? Why? If the chance of infertility was 10% would your opinion change? How?

7. Abortion is illegal. A constitutional amendment defining life as starting at conception has passed. The penalties are so harsh for performing abortions that only 10% as many illegal abortions are performed as legal ones. All children born to unwed mothers are offered placement in an orphanage/foster care situation from birth. The mother can reclaim a child placed in care at any time during the first year. At the end of a year in care, the mother's parental rights are severed and the child is available for adoption. A mother may surrender those rights at the placement.
Medical care is provided for the mothers. Living centers for pregnant women to stay at while pregnant and there is a foster care system for the children. These are paid for by a fee of 10% of all financial contributions given to any church. In addition, all of the fines for illegal abortions, said fines to include the confiscation and sale of all assets of the one convicted of performing the abortion including assets held in common. Fair or not? Why?

8. A child is born alive in a legal late term abortion. A member of the medical staff takes the child to a hospital where it is treated as a premature birth. The mother sues the clinic. What do you think should be the result of this? What should have been done?

9. Abortion is legal. A comprehensive support system for women and their children is established to provide aid. This system requires that the women capable of working do so and the treatment of the child is monitored as well. These requirements are part of the rules covering the receipt of the service. Churches may open care centers for pregnant women in lieu of paying a tax on their properties to pay for this service. A fifty dollar fee is added to all abortions to pay for these services as well. These centers must meet strict guidelines and no money may be paid from the government to the church for any reason. The churches may require women to meet less strict guidelines in order to receive government aid but no money may be paid to the church by the women either. In all cases a woman who becomes pregnant while receiving the post birth support, unless she is married to the father, immediately loses all benefits and, unless social services determines the woman is capable of providing a nurturing home for the child, has parental rights severed. What would you save/change in this?

10. A national health care plan has been approved by the government. The final vote was favorable only after these services were defined as not covering any abortion other than to save the life of the mother. Any doctor providing abortions for other reasons would be acting legally but would be prohibited from participating in any part of the national plan. Without this provision the plan will not be approved. There is a very good chance that there will be changes in the makeup of the congress which make if unlikely any national plan will be approved if this one fails. Should the bill be passed or should it be scrapped until it can pass without this restriction?

You might have guessed by now that I annoy both sides equally. You opinions and suggestions are requested. Profanity will only tell me your lack of thought. Attacks will tell me little. Ideas will tell everyone much.

Posted by momma y on November 2, 2007 01:25 PM

Post 1:21

Go back and read my post at 10:12 to Stan B.
I answered your typical pro-abort about men and abortion. Your comments are irrelevant and not an excuse to murder a child in the womb. You must be pretty young and have believed the lies of peolle like Hillary Clinton and the rest of the twisted feminists out there.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 01:32 PM

I don't think we will be the only industrialized nation to ban abortions. I think it is a useful political tool for some candidates. I do think that someday we will adopt sane policies regarding birth control and education and abortion will become a moot point. Sort of like Norway has done. Once people start treating this issue like adults instead of children, abortion will be safe, legal and rare.

Posted by just sayin' on November 2, 2007 02:02 PM

1:21,

Here's an actual photo of "a clump of cells" at 10 weeks old: http://channel.nationalgeographic.com/channel/inthewomboriginal/gallery_04.html#pic

If you have not sen National Geographic's In The Womb documentary, I highly recommend watching it.

Posted by John II on November 2, 2007 02:21 PM

Laws that restrict a woman's ability to control her own reproductive system should be treated as a "takings" and subject to compensation by the government. Individual states could prohibit abortion, but would have to pay the actual cost for the consequences of this governmental action, as states already must do when it imposes regulatory burdens that devalue an individual's physical property. When the actual costs of anti-abortion regulations are factored into the equation, American voters can make the informed choice, largely between 1) government-imposed morality and higher taxes (to compensate women subjected to the restrictions),OR 2) individual-based morality and lower taxes. And if the past is any guide, Americans, even in the bulging Bible belt, will always go for the lower tax position...morality be damned.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 02:22 PM

Momma y,

You ask great questions.

Being busy at the moment providng reproductive health care, (Diplomate American Board of OB/Gyn, Fellow American College of OB/Gyn in case Jimmy Jesus is lurking) I can't get into them.

With all those hypotheticals, how do you square them with what I believe is your small government conservatism?

Posted by Queen Gorgo (For only Spartan Women give birth to real men!) on November 2, 2007 02:37 PM

Hey wingnuts,

Here's a solution: If you don't believe in abortion, then don't have one.

Funny how you're always yelping about "big government," but you're always cheering for big brother to be poking around in areas where it has no business: marriage, sexuality & reproduction.

And here's a news flash: a clear majority of people in this country favor government butting out of people's private lives & favor a woman's right to make her own reproductive choices.

You wingnuts are already a politically endangered species - so, please try to make abortion illegal - you'll be gone quicker than Rush Limbaugh from a Weight Watchers convention.

Posted by drew on November 2, 2007 02:47 PM

Queenie

In your case satan is lurking. Your group are the hypotheticals. We speak what is called the truth. Your just have glorified credentials and onother name for child killers. Real medical professionals are suppose to save lifes, not end them. What a crock.

I guess we were suppose to be impressed with your name dropping.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 03:02 PM

Legal abortion will NOT be stopped, by John II or any other fundie pile of crap.

And anyone who had read these boards knows that John II LOVES murder, and is a hypocriical pile of dung.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 03:18 PM

drew

I was wondering when you would crawl out of the nether world smelling of sulfer and brimstone. One solution would be for your kind to stop supporting child killing and lying to young people and to the world about this heinous act. Another would be for people like you to also stop pushing your sexual immorality on young impressionable minds and lying to women that abortion is their best solution to solve their problems which in reality is the beginning of losing their womanhood and humanity. Tell them that they are being victimized by an abortionist.
Killing your baby is no solution at all. it's the selfish cowards way out. Hows that for a start to ending the abortion holocaust.

If you can't do that, then crawl back down where you came from.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 03:29 PM

Post 3:18
Has a "Potty" mouth and a doo doo fetish. He probably likes the smell like his pal the Lord of the flies.
Gross man!

Posted by on November 2, 2007 03:35 PM

I am pro-choice.
If a woman chooses to lie down with some man, she should be prepared to bear a child.

Don't like it? Don't lie down.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 03:57 PM

3:29,

Abortion is never impressed upon anyone as being the best solution. It's always the last unfortunate solution and no one is "encouraged".

Posted by on November 2, 2007 04:02 PM

Post 4:02

Sez you. Planned parenthood says different. Most abortions are performed on perfectly healthy babiesand for convenience sake. A quick fix. Your disingenuous "Unfortunate Solution" is always encouraged at the abortion mills like Planned Parentood. The profits they reap are incredible and they certainly are "Encouraged" by that.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 04:21 PM

"I was wondering when you would crawl out of the nether world smelling of sulfer (sic) and brimstone."

That's right, 3:29, Satan & me hatched the carnage all by ourselves - we plan new abortion clinics all the time. Jerry Falwell's down there too - but he doesn't join the planning - he's too busy eating jelly donuts. We're making room for Bush & Rumsfeld for all the Iraqi babies they killed (you know, the real kids, rather than fetuses).

Gotta go - Satan & me are off to tell teenagers that abstinence sucks (there's a contradiction in terms)!

Posted by drew on November 2, 2007 04:48 PM

Queen Gorgo,

I am a pro-life activist but I understand ALL the difficulties both of my position and the of women who seek a solution and might choose abortion. There are consequences for both viewpoints and all actions and many of them are invisible. I hope to start some thinking and idea sharing here. Individuals usually end up yelling instead of thinking. A pro-choice friend and I thought up most of these questions, in other forms, many years ago. Some of them, like the first one, began as views and ended up scientifically possible. Others have become commonplace and to ask them would be to mock others. My preference is to convince people not browbeat them. My favorite solution to abortion is the embryo removal, that will satisfy both sides main arguments. I know much more than I wish about the good people who work at Planned Parenthood, honest evaluation not mockery. It's really hard to hate individuals who are doing something very difficult and unpleasant with the intention of helping others. One friend who works there says a doctor she used to work for stopped performing abortions for the simple reason he couldn't keep nurses. They didn't last. No protesters, no controversy and no opposition but he needed nurses so he refers women now instead of performing abortions. He didn't change his mind either.

Be well. I'm looking forward to a few very well thought out answers to at least some of the questions on both sides. I also expect the pre-schoolers on both sides to be annoyed but then, I usually have the two and a half page posts and a lot of the potty mouths don't read that far.

BTW the friend and I used to carpool to demonstrations then bring sensible friends back to my apartment or hers for coffee, cake and conversation. Made one reporter absolutely nuts when he saw pro-life and a pro-choice protest signs being stowed in the same trunk by people who were being civil to one another.

Posted by momma y on November 2, 2007 05:27 PM

momma y, let me try on some of your questions. Since abortion is legal before three months, We do not need or seek a reason from the woman. After that, an abortion for gender selection or ruling out homosexuality would not be permitted for medical reasons. Same with any other differences we can find that have no effect on the babies health. Which I think is the reason for most mid and late term abortions. The mothers health can deteriorate quickly for some women and the baby too. There again I would like the medical profession to make the decisions with the woman.

Babies have survived late term abortions, only to die shortly after from what the doctors told the mothers they would die from. Better not to keep them alive for a few painful hours, but here again, I bow to the expertise of doctors, and these late term abortions were on wanted babies. So there is a double tragedy for the parents.

Make pregnancy a happy event for any and all girls and women, and that doesn`t take government programs, but if it takes welfare to keep girls and women from aborting, I am all in favor of welfare. And help with schooling and jobs. Let`s put our money on help, not more laws.

Now I have a question for you, what do we do with girls who are functionally mentally retarded but not bad enough to be institutionalized? This has always worried me, if we outlaw abortion, those poor souls will have one baby after another, because they lack the mentality to make decisions. Also homeless women are routinely raped, and impregnated and need special help.

I don`t like abortion either. I hate to see a girl or woman need one. It is always the last solution and one that most of us hope they won`t have to make. But we can`t promise to support them and the baby financially, only society can do that.

I personally know of at least a dozen babies alive today and not aborted because of welfare programs. One mother just finished her training and opened a business, another is getting a certificate and setting up a baby sitting business with two others like her.

If HUD would let women live with others and not always make them rent alone, that would help.

Women could live together and share baby sitting, letting all of them work or stay home.

Many babies I know of are racially mixed and might never be adopted. A life in foster care can work, it can also be a life of abuse.

In the end I want to leave the decision to women even if they are young, dumb or older and careless. The alternative is to let the laws decide. Like they did in the past.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 07:32 PM

7:32

very nice post. Good ideas and comments. I am raising our grand daughter with my husband. His step son married a woman a year after the child was born. A friend owed us a favor so he put through a DNA test after we discovered that our step son's name is not on the birth certificate. Child of our hearts not our bodies but we will steer clear of social services for as long as possible. She is black and we became suspicious because her father and grandfather have type B+ blood. She is type A-.

Abortion is a reality. We must use rational means to deal with both the problems it causes and the problems causing it. Thanks again.

Posted by momma y on November 2, 2007 07:45 PM

"Would it be moral to abort a child destined to be homosexual?"

Whatever helps you justify your bigotry

"A very stiff child support law is enacted federally. DNA samples will be run for all unsupported children. If either parent is not living with or paying support to the child it will be federally possible not only to attach paychecks but to attach and sell assets to provide financial support for the children. If a woman wishes to surrender her parental rights she may do so without penalty as may a father if the mother has already done so. Money distributed by the guardians of these children will be accounted for by outside auditors. What methods or means do we need to make use of to support children already born."

Read some Orwell and get back to us.

"Another stiff child support law is passed. It grants the child the right to support from the father unless the father surrenders his parental rights prior to the birth of the child or within 30 days of notice of the birth. A man may only make use of this law if he also has a vasectomy. Fair or unfair?"

Again...Orwell...do some reading.

"The stiff child support law above is changed. The woman seeking child support may only seek such support if she has never had an abortion. If she has aborted a child in the past she may not collect any child support unless she was married to the father or has her tubes tied within 30 days of delivery."

Try to temper your fundamentalism with orwell

"Abortion is illegal. A constitutional amendment defining life as starting at conception has passed"

The VAST majority of Americans are against anything remotely resembling this....good luck with that.

"A national health care plan has been approved by the government. The final vote was favorable only after these services were defined as not covering any abortion other than to save the life of the mother."

Again...not supported by even close to a majority of Americans...

"I don't think we will be the only industrialized nation to ban abortions."

As America and Iran are the two nations with the MOST amount of religious fundamentalist influence in gov't...and STILL don't even come close to having majority support for such a plan...again...good luck withg that pipe dream

Posted by jay on November 2, 2007 08:09 PM

Murder is illegal.Da.Soon the lawless liberals will want to kill anybody who doesn't think,Imean non-think like them.Like there greatest allied Bin Laden.Girls,learn how to give a good blow job,that fixes everything.

Posted by Keith on November 2, 2007 08:24 PM

Jay,

Those are not goals. They are starting points for conversation. Hypothetical situations. Many of my pro-life friends have a complete hissy fit when I ask them. Re-read them. You'll see which ones and probably already know why. You are correct in the total impossibility of several of them for many reasons. They were phrased that way to create conversation and thought. You gave us the conversation with thought but can we please have some more?

Posted by momma y on November 2, 2007 09:27 PM

But not from jay though.

Posted by on November 2, 2007 10:47 PM

Momma Y,

I plan to get to your questions saturday night/sunday. Please stay tuned. I'll also lay out my pro-choice case as context for my answers.

Posted by Queen Gorgo (For only Spartan Women Give Birth to Real Men!) on November 2, 2007 11:36 PM

Sory for the p.s., but could you flesh out what you mean by this?

I don't work for Planned Parenthood, but know lots who do, good people all.

As an abortion provider I have no trouble retaining staff. What are you referring to?

"I know much more than I wish about the good people who work at Planned Parenthood, honest evaluation not mockery. It's really hard to hate individuals who are doing something very difficult and unpleasant with the intention of helping others. One friend who works there says a doctor she used to work for stopped performing abortions for the simple reason he couldn't keep nurses. They didn't last. No protesters, no controversy and no opposition but he needed nurses so he refers women now instead of performing abortions. He didn't change his mind either."

Posted by Queen Gorgo (For only Spartan Women Give Birth to Real Men!) on November 2, 2007 11:46 PM

My "knowledge is about 12 years old now that I recall but we were talking about the things neither side wants to look into and the issue of keeping office staff was one. Sometimes it is protests or bad PR or some nutjobs issuing threats. I didn't realize, though I should have, the mental toll it takes on medical staff. Few like abortion. Most who provide it as a service do so because they believe they are helping people but it is about as uncomfortable a job to many as, well I'll give you my email and that example. No point encouraging the no minds who want nothing more than to spit fire at each other. Many people refuse to participate in abortion and I personally wish no one would participate or provide them. That said there are good people on both sides seeking solutions instead of political advantage. That is the coalition that will eventually solve the problem. But understand, I helped fund raise, promote and pass the Colorado prohibition on any funds going to abortion. I also fund raise, promote and work for better conditions for young women who are pregnant or young mothers when I can. Recently I have been diagnosed with terminal heart disease. Inoperable and almost untreatable. Now I basically write ads, brochures and other printed media and make blankets and teach basic office skills via either rehabbed computers for education centers so the women can bring their babies and learn skills or learn how to budget, keep house ( I should talk I hired a contractor to lay tile in August and paid him half. Haven't been able to get hold of him since. My kitchen is in my living room except for the fridge and stove because I have a plain wood floor and no countertop.) and plan ahead for their lives and their children's. Sometimes I just help them learn how to read or do simple math.

Problem with me is I actually believe the maxim that it is better to make friends than enemies and wiser to listen than to speak. That scares the crud out of some people. I think they are afraid to find human beings on the other side who are just as imperfectly wonderful as they are. By closing their eyes (and minds) and shouting they prevent any understanding from leaking through.

Posted by momma y on November 3, 2007 03:44 AM

Once again the Democrat posters show us how stupid they are.They say pro-life posters are cowards because they do not give their names but anyone can make up a fake name.Let's see how brave these liberals are post your first and last name,phone number,address and place of work.

Posted by An American on November 3, 2007 07:54 AM

I suppose "An American" is what it says on your birth certificate?

Posted by Hans Christian Brando on November 3, 2007 04:47 PM

Not Roger, Thank God

I thank your God that you're not me, either. Your hate-filled bile would make my Christian mother cry. Aren't you people supposed to be the paragons of love and mercy? All I ever hear is your hate. Work on your record of helping your fellow man, making life better for those who are already alive, be they your friends or your enemies, and then we'll start talking about your ability to love the various possibilities that may arrive when a sperm meets an egg.

Posted by Roger on November 3, 2007 07:33 PM

Good for you MommaY in more ways than one! First for broadening the narrow minded disucssion that occurs in all the forums here, because the polarized left vs right field trots out their same tired strident and thoughtless positions on every topic. Another result of lack of representation in our country, the two party system is broke...and as an unaffilated voter I don't think anyone represents me.
Second good for you for loving the child of your heart. As a foster mom for 15 years I can tell you that many children already alive are leading loveless lives because their parents should not have had any children. You have to get a license to drive a car but not to produce a child.
Third when men bear children then they can decide whether or not to keep the baby. Otherwise keep your opinions to yourself.

Posted by janis houston on November 4, 2007 06:20 AM

Janis,

Thanks. I like to argue with some people, most usually the really stoneheaded fundamentalists. I once ended a long tirade over the Bible where he kept pounding his fist on it and declaring every single word was accurate, not liable to interpretation, but actually and literally true without exception. So I asked him how Noah could tie his ass to a tree and then walk 40 miles. Oh the look. But he shut up.

Well that should be enough to keep the noisy ones back. For you, and others who prefer talking to shouting here is my e-mail:

rmyers458@hotmail.com

Don't worry about the nutjobs. I have a great twit filter. Message me. This one I can get messages on while I'm in the hospital, which is likely to be for most of the time between now and the 14th. And thank you. For the past 40 years I have been making both sides uncomfortable by suggesting we have some mutual goals. Only saw it once but man did it work. I don't even remember the bill but it was one in the state legislature that pro-choice people were really upset with and we didn't like it either. A few friends, all of us active in PACs, made the rounds of the statehouse. Once they saw that both sides were against it that sucker died faster than a mosquito in a flyswatter factory.

Posted by momma y on November 4, 2007 12:34 PM

What does “late term” mean? It’s ambiguous and medically meaningless phrases like this that move the debate away from facts and toward emotions.

This phrase was used in the PBA ban debate to make it seem like abortions are routinely performed moments before what would otherwise be a normal delivery. Of course that’s not true, and Roe allows states to outlaw abortion post-viability excepting when a woman’s life or health is risked. I agree with that calculus.

I think that if polled a majority of pro-lifers would say homosexuality is a choice. Such a discovery would rock their worlds. I wouldn’t abort for this reason, but supporting the right of women to reproductive self determination as superior to the fetus’ right to life, I would leave the decision up to the individual woman.

How many human embryos are you willing to destroy in the perfection of this technique?

I’m not too familiar with the veterinary science, but my brief googling revealed transfers occurring only before implantation, and obviously abortion occurs at least a month after.

Very hypothetical, and raises the issue of who will adopt these fetuses. Who pays? Does it threaten the woman’s health?

Unless it’s the same price and no threat to health, illegal abortion would continue to exist.

This is close to what we currently have, we need better enforcement.

Isn’t this the sort of social engineering and nannyism conservatives hate? Never fly in the US. It sounds great, but why not sterilize women on welfare too?

Why punish a child because it’s mother once had an abortion?

No, because the pill seems safer.

Not. Why should pro-choice religious institutions be required to support the views of other dogmas?

Severely hypothetical. Any procedure used on a post-viability fetus that could result in a live vaginal delivery would use amniocentesis to inject a lethal substance before beginning the extraction. If such a thing were to occur the medical team is required morally and legally to resuscitate the newborn. The woman’s suit would have merit.

Why churches? Why marriage? Secular organizations can support indigent mothers. Unmarried cohabitating couples can provide a good home. Again you’re punishing children for the acts of their parents.

A national health plan would be too important to hinge on this one issue, but your scenario is still weak.

Doctors need to admit patients to hospitals for aftercare. Many docs do more than just abortion. Women should be able to get abortions from their own OB/GYNs.

My bias towards your questions is they presume a willingness to unleash a fascist/welfare state to protect fetal life, at the expense of the rights of born living breathing women and men. You won’t find much political or constitutional support for these programs.

What did you think of the quotes I pulled from the PPRM Teen site on the other thread?

Posted by Queen Gorgo (For only Spartan Women Give Birth to Real Men!) on November 4, 2007 11:03 PM