‘Stress disorder’ used to be called cowardice
The sad picture in the Jan. 13 Rocky of the forlorn young soldier who wants out of the Army because of the dreadful things he saw in Iraq (“Terrors of war linger for some”) will impress a lot of mommies, perhaps, but not many men.
This fellow joined up intending to spend a lifetime in a proud career in the military. One problem: Apparently he did not think it might involve battle, or, if it did, Army Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman could not have been right in describing it as “hell.”
Other soldiers are horrified and sickened by the consequences of firefights but they hang in and prevail.
This fellow claims “post-traumatic stress disorder” from things he saw and wants a kindly nation to turn him loose. It will sound a whole lot more like cowardice to many. Cowardice in the face of the enemy used to get you a firing squad; now it is called PTSD and you are sent home to your family while fellow soldiers fight to the end.
Lee Vander Jagt, Denver
Mr. Vander Jagt would view soldiers as nothing more than killing machines and cannon fodder. They are not throw-away people. You cannot separate emotional responses from human beings--and soldiers are human beings. Any death is horrible to witness. Being the cause of someone else's death and suffering is a tremendous burden, whether it happens in war or by accident. I'm sure all soldiers are horrified and sickened by the consequences of war. But if someone who has witnessed horrors no longer wants to perpetrate them, he should not be condemned to death. He is not a coward.
Posted by Kristen Ottoson on January 26, 2007 05:37 AMOttoson clearly hasn't slipped outside of her comfy little world. There are alot of evils in this world that are confronted by volunteers, ie...soldiers, police, fire ect. These people sign up for the job, because they are the "right stuff." If you can't handle it, you should get out, and it may or may not make you a coward depending on the circumstances.
Posted by TMR on January 26, 2007 07:14 AMI assume Mr Vander Jagt and Ottoson are speaking from their personal experiences
from military combat.
If a soldier loses a limb in battle, we don't make him or her go back and fight with one arm or one leg. If a soldier is equally damaged psychically (PTSD, TBI, etc.), we should likewise not be making him or her go back to fight.
In the end, that soldier must come back to the civilian world and have a civilian life and be a part of society. Forcing a soldier back into a combat zone will only serve to further damage that soldier's psychological well-being. Just because PTSD is not as visible as a missing arm or leg, does not mean that it is any less debilitating. Nor does it mean that disregarding PTSD is any more humane than disregarding a missing limb.
Finally, what kind of asset do you think that a PTSD-affected soldier would be to a unit's effectiveness and cohesiveness? Just because the military culture has been ignorant and inhumane in the past, that is no justification to continue to be ignorant and inhumane when have a much better understanding of it today.
Support your troops, Mr. Vander Jagt--support means recognizing that they are human beings with real lives who should be treated as human beings with real lives to lead. Support does not mean forcing them off to war and damn the consequences.
"Forward they cried, from the rear, while the front rank died ..."
The letter writer is probably just as much of a chickenhawk as his heroes.
Posted by Blame Cheney on January 26, 2007 07:33 AMAnybody, with the right qualifications, can join the military. And until one actually is in combat, you never know how the individual is going to react. All the training in the world doesn't prepare you for that reality. Some people will handle it, some won't. Some effects are immediate, some linger for years after the fact. I find that most of these "brave souls" that never saw a bullet fired in anger at them are the ones that call somebody else "coward". Until you've been "there", you'll never understand, no matter how much you think you know. And Mr. VJ, just for your information, "hell" doesn't even begin to describe the horrors of war.
Posted by Vietnam Vet on January 26, 2007 07:35 AMMr. VJ, may you spend time in hell.
Posted by TJ on January 26, 2007 07:40 AMAmen, Viet.Vet.
While I don't think it's necessary that one should need to cite their military/combat credentials to be able to speak about the war, it certainly is telling when someone can be so cavalier about sending others off to war. I signed up, and I did my stint. And my PTSD issues didn't show up until almost 15 years later.
War is indeed hell, and sending our guys off to fight after they're damaged is like rubbing their nose in their wounds.
Posted by USMC Grunt on January 26, 2007 07:44 AMYou know, re-reading this letter, one has to wonder if Mr. Vander Jagt has seen one-too-many war movies where the poor, combat-fatigued/shell-shocked/PTSD afflicted soldier is told to "get it together," "buckle down," and "soldier on."
Usually that guy gets killed shortly thereafter and death is a welcome release. I can't say that (at least that part) is entirely untrue.
Posted by USMC Grunt on January 26, 2007 07:55 AMLTC Grossman's book "On Killing" explains how difficult it is for typical human beings to kill each. On Iwo Jima, in 1945, of the 70,000 marines that went ashore, 7,000 were killed, 14,000 wounded, and 7,000 were "combat fatigue". I was an Infantry leader in the Army to DEFEND our country. Our current military is NOT defending our country; they are subjugating the Iraqi people, stealing the resources for oil companies, installing another puppet government for the New World Order, and supporting the Zionists/supremacists in Israel. Our miltary is being culled so it will composed of the thrill-seeking, the psychotic, the naive and the desparate. We should either enlist TJ and his buddies, or get out of Iraq.
Posted by Bruce on January 26, 2007 08:33 AMBravo Ms. Ottoson!
“Right Stuff” be damned, the best advice if you are invited to attend a war is to decline and find “other priorities”.
Having participated in a few armed conflicts, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that one of the prime evils of our species is that we get all excited about weapons and parades and the derring-do image of war. I think of it as a form of species-wide insanity.
We like to view war as something to do with honor and bravery and acts of great nobility, whereas the truth is that war is mostly about tedium, barbarity, and organized brutality.
There is nothing remotely grand about scattered body parts and people with chunks of their heads missing, or vermin feasting wetly on bloated and twisted corpses. There is nothing stirring and noble about small children with missing limbs and mangled faces, yet this is the true nature of war.
Every time somebody grandly suggests war, think burning mothers and babies, and howling parents carrying the torn remains of their children, not bunting and fine parades.
To answer TMR, the simple truth is that nobody can “handle it”, we all come back insane and broken, and “handling it” is just a catchy little piece of humbug mostly bandied about by the numbskulls who either have never tasted fear and smelled burning flesh, or are so insane that they want to visit the same experience on others.
My suggestion is that you try the cozy life that you accuse Ms. Ottoson of having.
Cozy beats war any day, any time, any where, I strongly recommend it!
Bravo again Ms. Ottoson!
Sorry Bruce, way to old to re-enlist.
Posted by TJ on January 26, 2007 12:31 PMThis letter writer is callous beyond belief. Many sign up, willing to defend their country, believing they can handle it. But like VV said, no one knows how they'll react until they're in that situation. Rather than insult the person because of their trauma, you should support them and thank them for their service!!!
Posted by fiesty on January 26, 2007 02:35 PMHow much do you want to bet that Vander Jagt has a huge gas guzzling SUV (or maybe some sort of phallic substitute in automobile form) with a yellow ribbon sticker on the back.
Maybe next we can start making fun of rape victims.
Posted by Smelly Hippie on January 26, 2007 04:44 PMAnd people say that the RMN is for conservatives.
Posted by on January 26, 2007 05:25 PMMy father was a WWII veteran and his transport ship was sunk...he survived this ordeal only to face his own breakdown a year later in Persia as it was known then. He told me in those days they sent you to R and R and counseling and if you got over it, then back to duty. So calling someone a coward because they can't take the stress is just too much testosterone. Which I contend is most of the reason we have war, gentlemen. When will you tire of the blood and guts? War isn't about freedom and justice. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.
Posted by Janis Houston on January 27, 2007 06:18 AMSo many words, and yet so little sense expressed.
Posted by Patrick Sperry on January 27, 2007 11:27 AMI attended today's peace rally at the Capitol disabled vet that I am, and didn't like it when the preacher said: "We killed them...," alluding to the war in Iraq. I was against that war before Bush with the Ipod in his ear named Jesus Christ ordered him to invade: therefore, Bush killed them. "We" implies that I am amongst the killers of 600,000 Iraqies along with 3000 plus Americans. Impeach and convict Bush/Cheney before they kill more in this illegal occupation of Iraq because someone attempted assassination of Bush senior. Quoting a speaker: "Bush is not the decider; the people is the decider" as evidenced by the new Congress. Bush is the divider. I love this new Rocky format where I don't have to pay 39 cents postage to put in my two cents worth. Don't be cowardly: Sign your full name.
Posted by Richard Grimes on January 27, 2007 02:30 PM"Don't be cowardly: Sign your full name."
Big words coming from someone using a pen name. Although I guess it is possible that you are a person actually named Richard Grimes, given the fact that extreme leftists are almost always college kids or professors, and The Simpsons is quite a popular show among the college aged, I find your alias to be a little too coincidental. Use your real name before you ask people to use their full name.
‘Stress disorder’ used to be called cowardice"
And they used to put leeches on people with fever. And boodletting was accepted medical practice. I see a pattern.
As a whole, kids are softer today than they were in the early and mid 20th century. They sit and play video games instead of going out and playing and getting hurt and seeing others get hurt. They are used to a society where safety is taken to some odd extremes, and fear of everything is used as a tool to ensure compliance. It makes sense that they will break as a greater percentage of the whole than they once did.
We are a warlike people, dare I say species? No matter what rational minds think, conflict and killing will continue for the people of the world. We are better trained, have better weapons and technology. There should be plenty of good soldiers without putting a broken man back in a place were he is no longer effective and could cost other soldiers their lives.
I'm sure it would also help if the mission were clear and they knew what they had to do to come home. I'm sure it would help if the mission they have been tasked with was more directly related to they cause presented(terrorism and 911). I'm sure it would help if the commander-in-chief was competent and easier to believe. I'm sure that if this was a legitimate war with legitimate and honorable goals, and honorable men sending them to fight, the men and women who are fighting this war would hold up better and come home less broken.
To the unnamed writer reacting with such suspicion to Richard Grimes true identity, I wonder if you also believe the Lisa Simpson working next to me is using an alias to hide her nefarious left-wind agenda from the office? Or that Jessica Simpson is a stage name used to help spread her radical liberal extremism to the college-aged masses? But regardless of the occurrence of real people sharing names with fictional characters, you might want to know that the Simpson’s character you seem to be referring to is name ‘Frank Grimes’, not Richard. They might be liberal, but at least college students and their professors usually know to check their facts before spouting out their ignorance—even when it comes to cartoons.
Posted by KP on January 28, 2007 12:19 PMI can understand ignorance of an individual such as Lee Vander Jagt equating Post Traumatic Stress Disorder with cowardice in his/her letter of January 26, 07. I don’t understand the editorial discretion and responsibility of the Rocky Mountain News in publishing such a warped and insensitive piece that continues to promote stigma for returning troops seeking mental health services.
I doubt very much the RMN would publish a letter that equates cancer with a character flaw. I doubt there would be a letter published which stated the annual run/walk for breast cancer research was a waste and foolish because cancer can’t be cured.
The RMN and Vander Jagt perpetuate the ugly stigma mental health treatment shouldn’t have parity with physical health treatment. At a time when returning troops are having ever increasing mental health problems as a result of multiple deployments to combat your disrespect and that of Vander Jagt does little to support them. Instead you help put road blocks in their way to return to the best health possible.
I’d ask Vander Jagt visit a VA mental health unit and tell the combat vets they’re cowards for experiencing trauma following deaths of their friends and innocent Iraqi children. And perhaps John Temple and your editorial staff should go with Vander Jagt.
William T. Leichner, RN
USMC combat veteran - Vietnam ('67-'69)
Anyone who think PTSD is not real has a major problem. You can read a Article about a Hero Marine Who's family asked no beged the VA to admit him. They put this young man on a waiting list. Four Days later he was dead. http://www.vawatchdog.org
You can read many articles like this. If you don't know there are 200,000 homeless Veterans right now on the street from the VA's own data. Must of these Veterans suffer from mental problems like PTSD. To call anyone who served this nation a coward because he suffers from watching a man die in his arms or has seen enough to brake anyones heart.Does not know what he is talking about. Or is a plant because 1 out of four of our men and women in Iraq now suffer from PTSD again VA's own numbers
TO DALE PETERS & ED M....STAND UP AND SPEAK OUT. AS A VOLUNTEER FIELD REP SERV. OFF. FOR DISABLED VETS FOR 20 YEARS AND MARRIED TO A DISABLED VET FOR 19 OF THOSE YEARS, I CAN TELL YOU EMPHATICALLY THERE IS SUCH A THING AS PTSD AND FURTHERMORE THERE IS NO CURE FOR IT. VETERANS MUST UNDERGO TRMT. AND TRY TO LEARN TO LIVE WITH IT. THOSE OF YOU WHO DON'T BELIEVE THIS CONDITION EXISTS, JUST DON'T GET IN MY FACE....I HAVE PLENTY TO SAY ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
Posted by o herron on January 29, 2007 09:14 AMO herron I am a VSO for VFW but I also head Veterans For Progress. I know there is PTSD and the Congress has cut funding for research on PTSD. We have some people who are plants saying PTSD is faked by Soldiers and Marines. Why because of what I stated before one out of four returning troops from our current war zones suffer from PTSD or other mental problems. When you send a troop to war. You better pay for them when they come home. PTSD IS REAL AND NOTHING TO BE PLAYED WITH.
Posted by Dale Peters on January 29, 2007 09:48 AMDale: Thanks for your comments. People should be aware if a veteran has a physical disability, various tests, i. e., X-Rays, MRI's, CT scans, etc. can provide proof of the condition most of the time. But mental conditions cannot be diagnosed with the same tools. I call PTSD "stealth damage" because it is a condition one cannot see. A condition of PTSD can be so SEVERE it just literally encompasses one's very soul. To some, the only escape is to just "end it all".
These people need help, understanding and compassion not criticism. PTSD is more prevalent than people realize. As Dale says, "don't play with this".
Actually you can diagnose PTSD empirically.
There are distinct neurological changes and reactions that can be picked up with fMRI and which would be very difficult to fake.
Posted by Sgt.Pepper on January 29, 2007 03:17 PMI wached my best friend die, I killed an enemy, i was wounded, i got a medal for saving someone, I have PTSD. I am a man. F you Lee
Posted by Iraq Vet on January 29, 2007 04:43 PMI wached my best friend die, I killed an enemy, i was wounded, i got a medal for saving someone, I have PTSD. I am a man. F you Lee
Posted by Iraq Vet on January 29, 2007 04:43 PMSgt. Pepper the test you speak of is still in the research stage. There is a web site called Combat PTSD you might want to read.Illona has a book out that give in detail how bad PTSD is in returning troops. Old ways of meds have been found not to work. Vet to Vet Clinics seems to be the best bet right now. Like Dr Sally claim vets fake PTSD but what she does not tell you she is being paid by a Think Tank that cause more problems them it fixes. You have heard from some vets here who need to be at the clinics. But those Clinics are being closed. Funding is short and we are being told by people like Dr. Sally vets are fakers. No they are not.You can tell real PTSD from a faker. Only two vets have been cought faking in the last three years. Both are serving time. That is about all I can say. You got your own opinions here but PTSD is very real.
Posted by Dale Peters on January 29, 2007 06:57 PMSo is multiple-personality disorder. Frank told me to say that
Posted by on January 30, 2007 02:37 AMYes most of us make it to the end. But not without the drama that war imposes on the soul. To have PTSD does not make anyone a coward or a mommies boy or a cry baby. Not everyone can just plow through the rage of war and get along fine. DO NOT JUDGE WHAT YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND!!!
Posted by Dale Hogard on January 30, 2007 11:44 PMin WWII when the marines took iwo jima there were 15,000 shell shock, combat fatige, or as it is now called PTSD I have it and I served in Vietnam in TET 1967-68 and it did not make me disabled untill 1974 so would you call me a coward ???
Posted by gordon sutton on January 31, 2007 06:51 AMI was diagnosed with PTSD after getting out of an extremely abusive marriage. Mostly I am considered a strong and resilient person, but we all can "take only so much" before our "systems" say, "That's it. Enough is enough.". Unless you have experienced it and been through the abuse and trauma, you may NOT pass judgement. I still wake up with night terrors, and there are movies I turn off. I CAN imagine "Combat PTSD", the re-living the horror of hand to hand combat, but mainly our society has "stayed home", warm and safe. Unless the "book writers" are explaining personal experience, I tend to discount their "expertise"!
Posted by Jean on January 31, 2007 11:59 AMMr Jagt.......just another dirtbag, talking out his butt !!!!
NamVet 69-70
Mr. Jagt....to put it simply, you don't know me, nor do you know the thousands and thousands of Vets who suffer from PTSD. I served in Vietnam from 29Jan67 to 22Feb68 as a forward observer with E Company 2ndBn, 5thMarines, 1stMarDiv. I was wounded four times. The most grievous wound I received I did not get a Purple Heart for. That being my PTSD. They called my PTSD "Delayed Onset," because I didn't return home with it. My mother, father, brothers, and sister, as well as my friends might disagree with this diagnosis. My wife and kids also might disagree with it since they were the recipients of all that goes with having a husband and father who suffers from PTSD. I need not explain my self to an individual who has neither walked in my shoes nor bourne my infirmities. To attempt to explain to you, sir, would be like talking to a jackass. I served, and I served honorably. I was decorated three times for bravery, watched as my best friends life ebbed from his lungs while he died whispering his final words, "Momma." My radio operator who stepped on a 250 or 500 pound bomb and all we found of him was a small piece of his rib cage. You ever gotten close to a man and then realized that the bomb had vaporized him? No blood, no tissue, no sinew, no leg, no arm, no nothing. Just a small piece of rib sent home to his folks marked, "Remains unsuitable for viewing." Ever dropped artillery, mortars, or naval gunfire on a village and killed countless number of women and children just because the enemy had taken combat positions amongst them and ambushed your unit? Ever go to graves registration and identify your "BEST" friend who had his body ripped, torn, and shattered by an enemy 122mm rocket. Ever been responsible for the death of a pregnant woman, her unborn baby, and her son and daughter because you made an error in your map coordinates? I hate the number four. When ever I see it, or hear it, my mind drifts back to that time on January 16, 1968, when the above incident happened. Ever heard the noise that 20 US Marine bodies make after they have been sitting out in the sun all day? Then while you are trying to sleep by them that night because they could not spare a chopper to pick up the dead? Ever seem hundreds of enemy soldiers stacked up like cord wood, all of them bloated and stinking? Please don't tell me, a US Marine combat Veteran, who survived 407 days of brutal combat in Vietnam, and witnessed things most men cannot even imagine, that because I suffer from PTSD, that I am a coward.
Mike Harris