Tired of religious agenda
Today, March 16, 2007, I read Republican candidate Sam Brokeback, I mean Brownback, is verbally spouting his support for our Pentagon’s top general, Peter Race, in labeling homosexual acts as immoral.
I don’t see how this exactly coincides with serving our country? Sam Brownback states, “I’m a Catholic, and the church has clear teachings on this.” Well Mr. Brownback, I am not Catholic and I really don’t care what your perception of church teachings are. I don’t believe I am the only one in this country who feels this way either.
Homosexuals are everywhere whether you like it or not.
You can’t stop nature.
We are postal workers, construction workers, lawyers, politicians, pastors, UPS workers, newspaper carriers, doctors, editors, athletes, accountants, truck drivers, counselors, volunteers, policeman, soldiers, VOTERS…….the list goes on and on.
You have offended a great many of people and I am disgusted and will continue to be disgusted every time I hear about you and YOUR closeted, one-sided, religiously directed agenda.
This letter has not been edited.
Joey of Denver
Solution: Don't read the paper or watch the news on TV. No one is twisting your arm.
Besides you have it backwards Not only politicians and Christians are tired of your kind ramming your agenda down our throat, but so is most of Ameica.
You started this about 35 yrs. ago with your "Get The Camel's Head in the Door of the Tent. Then Slowly Sneak the rest of the Ugly Body in when Noboby is Paying any Attention. Pedophiles are all over the place also whether we like it or not and are in those professions you mentioned, and yes, we can stop the un-natural.
Another Whiny" I need all the attention I can get to my sexual preference pre-occupation of the homosexual. Just shut up and go back into your dark closet.
Posted by Grossed Out on March 28, 2007 12:11 PMAh geez: Even in his closet, Joey can't help but hear Pace's despicable comment and even Pace contends crossing the line. Such a gross recommendation such as "Whiny" and "shut up" violates the rule of civility that means I treat you with respect even if I disagree with you. r22037yahoo
Posted by Richard Grimes on March 28, 2007 12:55 PMI hope St Peter is gay
Posted by on March 28, 2007 01:11 PMWow, Grossed Out.... you are sure exhibiting the best of Christian values with that comment. I'm sure Jesus would say the same thing.
Posted by Dan on March 28, 2007 01:20 PMjudge not, lest ye be judged.
Posted by God on March 28, 2007 01:30 PMThe fundamentalist, puritanical, religious zealots and their agenda go much further than the Phelps clan's "God hates fags" mentality. These like-minded fanatics are the ones who want to ban abortion even under the most dire of situations, ie., rape, incest, disease. Speaking of disease, they also want to ban condoms. They consider all forms of birth control as taboo. They want the book of Genesis required as the foundation of biology classes, and enforced prayer and bible reading in public schools. All this, and the desire that their church-related big businesses remain tax-free. They quote only the passages of the "good book" that fit their narrow concepts of right and wrong. They self-righteously believe that the only good families are those with a mommy and daddy.
They condemn communism but never bother to look at the country of origin of the gadgets they buy. They claim to worship the Prince of Peace while vociferously condemning those who protest our ongoing state of war. Going back to Joey's initial observations, if the Supreme Court would once and for all proclaim that taxpaying, law-abiding gays are fully equal and entitled to exactly the same rights, considerations, and protections, maybe the rest of the population wouldn't be bothered by in-your-face activists anymore.
I plucked out the term ,even encouraged, from you. No one encourages adults to mess with children. And no one needs to be encouraged to express love and sexual desire, that happens all by itself and usually at a very young age. At 7 a felt a real zing watching a Roy Rogers movie and I wasn`t looking at Dale.
Posted by sharon b on March 28, 2007 06:28 PM"No one encourages adults to mess with children."-really?! I wonder what that organization NAMBLA is all about than ! May be you can explain why you said "no one". Ignorance?
Posted by on March 28, 2007 06:55 PMI wouldn't go so far as to say I'm tired of the "religious agenda." Some of the most beautiful art, music, and architecture on this planet has been religion-inspired (and sponsored in many cases, e.g. the Sistene Chapel).
What I get bored with is the modern culture of conspicuous Christianity which is clearly out for political power at the cost of turning their backs on the tenets of their own faith. (Forget the "judge not," "turn the other cheek," "love and forgive your enemies," "only pharisees and hypocrites pray in public"; it's No More Mr. Nice Christian time.) Their self-portrayal as oppressed victims of intolerance is like Donald Trump complaining that he's not eligible for food stamps.
I'm also weary of the dubious claim that "the Bible is very clear about homosexuality" (it isn't) and the inordinate focus on homosexuality as the worst thing in the world, while everything else biblically condemned is flexible, optional, or just in there for filler.
For the record, NAMBLA (how do so many straight people even know about it?) is an embarrassment to most gay people, too.
Posted by Hans Christian Brando on March 28, 2007 07:27 PMI think there is much good in the Christian agenda, such as the agenda of Mother Teresa types, and the schools, hospitals, homeless shelters, child care centers, etc that the Christian community blesses us with.
A quite different agenda, however, is promulgated mostly, in my opinion, by different people that the Christians I refer to above, and it's central theme is to condemn to hell people who don't agree with them.
If there were only Christians of the first kind, Christianity would be reason to rejoice. But with the second kind, Christianity is prostituted, not nearly as bad but in somewhat the same way as the extremists prostitute Islam.
There was a time when the second kind of Christians would often tell people, "believe as I do, or I'll behead you". They can't do that any more, so instead they say "believe as I do or you'll burn forever in hell".
Christianity should be a religion of love and compassion. But too often it is somewhat the opposite. As someone once said, "the only thing wrong with Christianity is that it hasn't been tried yet".
Posted by Truth on March 28, 2007 08:21 PMMost homosexuals are not pedophiles. Unlawful sexual acts most often occur heterosexually. Therefore the painting of all gays with their extreme fringe groups is wrong. So is labeling all Christians thier extremist elements. My stepson is gay and we love him very much but he has flipped from lover to lover to steet living for many years. For the past ten years he has suffered form AIDS. It will kill him. For most of the past five years he has lived with us and been a good uncle to my grand daughter.
Do I think he is the model and picture of gay men? Well I also have a nephew many years younger. Very straight. At 18 he has three children and has not married the mothers of any of them. He does not support himself and lives with his mother and grandmother. Is he the model of all straight men? Across the country many gay people want to be treated failrly. Since the loudest groups are demanding a change in our system to permit same sex unions to be treated as marriage there will be a struggle. I don't think that would be right but I also think they need laws to protect such partnerships from outside attacks.
If you don't think the Christian ideal of marriage is the model for our society then why is no one permitted to have more than one spouse at the same time? (On the installment plan we have many such.) That model was part of our country's history and remains a part of it. Christian teachings have been integrated into all parts of our system and for the most part we all benefit. It was the "Christian" view of the value of the individual that shone like a bright light in our founding. Perhaps we will change but there is no change that will be easy and any forced change will probably result in the specific thing forced being rejected and opposed with violent passion and heavy politics. I follow the teachings that say we must treat our fellow man with honor and dignity and true love. Changing marriage won't fix the opinion that homosexuality is "outside the norm." I think that we will find our way if we can convince both extremes to shut up and look inside their own passions to find a place of peace. In the meantime I'm looking for a good supply of earplugs
Truth is right.
Many, if not most Christians, do not live the principles and teachings of Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ gave us a simple challenge: be kind to each other instead of judging.
Somewhere along the line this message got distorted and people calling themselves Christians decided that their duty in life was to help others BY judging them.
This type of thinking and beliefs will always result in division. This is why religion has been the cause of more human death and misery than any other cause.
Thomas, how true you are my friend. I am a spiritual gay man, not a religious one. How many more studies must be done before idiots like grossed out realize that there are more heterosexual acts of pedophilia in this world that could be happening in the house next door. Ignorance is a powerful thing and the Church has used it for years to keep so many under their control. :) I love Jesus Christ, but I do not love the churches who seem to think they have a direct link to him through bigotry, lies and control.
Posted by InfillJunkie on March 29, 2007 09:28 AMAs a christian, I believe it is up to the God of my belief to judge the mortals he's created. Most christians believe in a "final accounting" of their lives before The Maker. No one will be there to bear witness or to share blame, YOUR actions are YOUR actions.
If same sex couples want to co-habitate with the blessing of the government, who am I to say this is wrong? I am not privy to the mind of God. He gave us 10 very clear rules to live by, if one is following those rules all other concerns are His. He did not follow that list of rules with "And Thou shalt enforce these rules to Thine own interpretation."
That said, stop calling so much attention to your chosen life-style, follow the rules and face the consequences.
Posted by -J- on March 29, 2007 09:38 AMI despise the god Jesus; I do not despise the man Jesus born in a house, Mt. 2 or in a smelly stable, Lk. 2 since perhaps thousands of men named Jesus existed. As for Jesus the god: He is a delusion in the mind of humans as all his predecessors were and no longer exist. I embrace my god: Mother Nature whose creativity results in birth of the subject matter herein. r22037yahoo
Posted by Richard Grimes on March 29, 2007 09:48 AMJust mention the good Rev. Haggard to all of your Focus on the Family friends.
Watch 'em tell you of demonic posession, it's just fun!
Posted by Paul on March 29, 2007 11:54 AMRichard,
Do you then say that the book you are quoting is fiction? And whose opinion are you stating there about delusions.....you try to be so cryptic but your opinion makes no sense.
I don't want to turn this forum into an attack platform but you obviously like to make broad statements waiting for someone to disagree with you. Just out lookin' for trouble, ehh?
I don't bite, you are entitled (by our country's laws) to your opinion and the right to publish it. In my business we have a saying..."Opinions are like @#$%^&*, everybody has one..." but don't be one just 'cause you have one. :-)
You dumbasses are scared of Christians limiting your fun, while you defend those who would GLADLY saw you head off with a knife.
Why does our society give ANY creedence to the voice of it's children who do not yet know sh** about life?
By the way I am not a Christian. I just know I'd rather be locked in room full of them rather than a room full of Islamic nut jobs.
You morons cause more trouble than you know. You are not changing the world one bit. Because the world cannot take your kind seriously, because you are spoiled, angry, self-centered punks who have never had to scrape for anything. STFU.
Posted by on March 30, 2007 07:58 AMTry sitting in a room during the Inquisition contending that planet earth is round as opposed to flat and is in orbit arund the sun. r22037yahoo
Posted by Richard Grimes on March 30, 2007 09:32 AMRichard Grimes ,
The Inquisition? How 'bout the here and now? You know the place where WE are alive?
But when your grasping for straws I guess anything, even history, is fair game. Whatever...
07:58 AM
So those of us who don't fall down and grovel before those who constantly want to shove their cult's nonsense down everybody else's throat are "children who do not yet know sh** about life".
Oh! And we're "spoiled, angry, self-centered punks who have never had to scrape for anything", too.
Well, sonny, at least WE have the necessary guts to either use our own names or an identifying posting name when we speak. And after some 78 years - growing up during the period of the Great Depression, before World War II - I think I know a lot more about "having to scrape" than a silly little tempermental brat like you will ever learn.
But of course, it just boils down to this: The damn fools who don't want to lear, won't. And history is one place to start learning.
Or is that just one of the subjects you didn't pass?
Posted by Old Grouch on March 30, 2007 10:32 AM07:58 AM
So those of us who don't fall down and grovel before those who constantly want to shove their cult's nonsense down everybody else's throat are "children who do not yet know sh** about life".
Oh! And we're "spoiled, angry, self-centered punks who have never had to scrape for anything", too.
Well, sonny, at least WE have the necessary guts to either use our own names or an identifying posting name when we speak. And after some 78 years - growing up during the period of the Great Depression, before World War II - I think I know a lot more about "having to scrape" than a silly little tempermental brat like you will ever learn.
But of course, it just boils down to this: The damn fools who don't want to learn, won't. And history is one place to start learning.
Or is that just one of the subjects you didn't pass?
Posted by Old Grouch on March 30, 2007 10:34 AMI had way to much water and juice this morning so, I really have to, well, you know, go, as in number one, ok? When I found this pissing contest, i knew I had found relief. Whew! That's better.
Joey, Its not the christians, its the politicians using the christian religion to promote their agenda. Don't watch Fox news and your day will improve. I don't listen to the gay political agenda because I'm not buying what their selling either.
Old grouch,
Just hit enter once. Too bad people can be so old AND so stupid.
Posted by on March 30, 2007 11:06 AMIn Serbia the Christians kill the Muslims while in Ireland the Christians kill each other. Christians actually save their most vicious attack for each other. Christians kill homosexuals and recently lynched Black people. It has always been, "Accept my god or I'll kill you." Jesus Christ will kill Jezebel's children because she fornicates. He will kill unbelievers as in Luke 19:27. Your Jesus is a dead-ringer for Osama bin Laden. r22037yahoo
Posted by Richard Grimes on March 30, 2007 02:42 PMSome stupid moron posted: "You morons cause more trouble than you know. You are not changing the world one bit."
If we are not changing the world a bit, then, ipso facto, we are not causing trouble.
Glad to have you abroad. We meet again next week.
Posted by A moron on March 30, 2007 03:34 PMWhile there are things I liked a lot about momma y's post, I think we have to be careful saying such things as "It was the "Christian" view of the value of the individual that shone like a bright light in our founding."
The Christian view prevailed in the Europe from whence our ancestors came, but it was the community rather than the individual who was the more important. While I personally think we have overvalued the individual and undervalued community, my point is simply that Christianity championed the community more than the individual.
And while our founding fathers did shine a bright light, that light also cast a shadow on the slaves.
Posted by Truth on March 30, 2007 04:04 PMHey "A moron " you are correct. I should have said:
"You morons cause more trouble than you know. You are not changing the world (for the better) one bit."
And you are not. Dumbass.
Thank you for being a good little proof reader. You get a gold star!
Posted by It's all about LOVE on March 30, 2007 04:13 PM[editor: please post under a consistent screen name]
Posted by Dumbass on March 30, 2007 07:13 PMTruth
Thanks. You are right about the caution to make a broad statement but in general it is the "pure" form of faith that gives the good and the 'believe as I say or I'll kill you" that ruins it.
Of course I can state the reasons for disapproval of homosexual behaviour from a religious view but most here are gonna want to hand me my head.
The source is the same faith based one which says that which says each person is of infinite value. Basically we are each "more" than a body, more than one, more than an existence for a brief period of time. While some would disagree with my words, I think even non-believers have some shadow of this because many of them try to do the best for others and the right thing and to create good outcomes for people they may never know meet or even hear of.
This is the religious viewpoint I hold. Because of it to me each of us is more than just a set of genitals. Application of this means that marriage is both a partnership of two equals, a place for the bearing and raising of children and a social benefit. Changing this to include those who identify only on one of these points cheats all of us and denies the participants a realization of self.
Biology determines who can bear children and therefore is the "decider" here.
This does NOT mean anyone should be harmed, hated or left behind in our human family. IT means we can find ways to be families and friends while we disagree.
Religion is a part of society. Those who only wish to attack it will defeat themselves. Those who only wish to turn it into a fortress will do likewise. I suggest we leave both extremes to their lonliness.
Anyone who choses to believe may. Anyone who chooses not to should be treated with the same respect and courtesy.
momma y,
In principle you have expressed what appears to be a very sensible and well thought out position. One which could well form a starting place for that reasonable working together which would lead to the Constitutional principle of equal rights before the law.
But, by beginning from a religious set of assumptions, you have already closed off any opportunity to actually work out problems. The assumption that marriage is there solely for the purpose of producing children is not borne out in history - however much it be emphasized as a religious belief.
And your assumption that, proceeding from a position of change in the definition "cheats all of us" merely begs the question. How am I cheated if two people of opposite gender are barren, and do not have children? And, as corolary, how am I cheated if two people of the same gender enter upon a mutual agreement with each other?
How does such a union - either with child-bearing potential or without - "deny the participants a realization of self."? Isn't that another assumption?
The works of C.G. Jung deal with the realization of Self at great length. Nowhere in these works does the founder of Analytical Psychology place prior religious assumptions ahead of emperical evidence and experience.
But every religious argument against gay marriage and/or civil unions begins from assumption; and refuses to even consider evidence and experience outside.
Who is "cheating" whom?
Posted by Old Grouch on March 31, 2007 05:44 PMOld Grouch
Please re-read
I state the religious objections to homosexual unions being recognized as equal to marriage and their source. Agreement is not required from anyone because we all come to our own understandings in life. But society is a combineation of many things and in our society the politicans will determine many things. If it were not so about marriage there would not be a major push to punish the polygamists. I like talking to you because you at least do your best to speak listen and think no matter whether I agree with you are not.
I also stated that any ONE choice between the many reasons for marriage being the only reason cheats us all. We may disagree on many things but doubtless we agree that the dignity of each person must be considered and protected no matter what your personal opinion.
Posted by momma y on March 31, 2007 11:04 PMmomma y,
Sorry, I read "changing this to INCLUDE", which I took to mean "add to", not just "one choice". And that's what prompted my response.
You are, of course, correct that limiting to one choice cheats - at least those excluded, if not all. And that's at the heart of most of what has been written here.
The polygamy issue has been a thorn in the side for years. Unfortunately, its history is surrounded by - and greatly obscured by as well - its origins in this country. Including, but not limited to, its being a MANDATED RELIGIOUS "covenant" for those of a particular belief. And, the methods by which that religious belief was acted upon were - and still are - very contrary to the sociological development of the Nation over the years before polygamy became a part of a particular cult's practices. And they remain so today.
Woman as "chattel" - or "brood animal" - is NOT something at all attractive as either a religious fundamental or a general practice in Western society. And, even in those other parts of the world, where it has eons of being established practice, polygamy is becoming increasingly at odds with socio-economic conditions, as well as with the whole of womanhood as such.
Perhaps the goal of human advancement beyond primitive tribalism best serves to argue against polygamy; whether or not that goal is actually ever acomplishable throughout all human society.
Personally, I've been known to remark: "Well, we gave women the vote; and look what kinda shape the country's in now."
So, polygamy as such is at best a very minor issue - if at all - with me.
Posted by Old Grouch on April 1, 2007 09:35 AM