Gun control
Adults with permits can legally carry concealed firearms in Utah schools and universities, where there have been no mass-killings. In Utah, those sufficiently trained to have conceal-carry permits can deter and heroically stop violent criminals. At CU, they are felons. CU’s prohibition of firearms for self-defense purposes leaves students, staff, and faculty defenseless against deranged school-shooters.
This letter has not been edited.
Brian is 100% right!!! You cowards step aside and let the brave concealed carry people protect your worthless butts.
Posted by Ron on April 27, 2007 01:58 PMIt is the express duty of the media to portray anyone who owns a gun, for whatever reason, as a potential mass murderer. After all, everyone knows that the only people who can be trusted with firearms are Federal Government employees. Any stories, however factual that portray a civilian using a firearm to defuse or end a deadly or violent situation are irrelevent. Can you all please just form an orderly line and begin depositing your firearms and ammo at the nearest police station. After all, We are from the government, and we are here to help you.
By the way, I have some good land for sale in New Orleans too.
Do you suppose the crime Furnish was actually charged with was "possession of a deadly weapon" rather than some more benign term?
Posted by anderson on April 27, 2007 02:26 PMThere's an excellent analysis on how guns on campus can *save* students' lives in the online article, " When mass killers meet armed resistance". Here are some key excerpts:
http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2007/04/when-mass-killers-meet-armed-resistance.html
"It took place at a university in Virginia. A student with a grudge, an immigrant, pulled a gun and went on a shooting spree. It wasn’t Virginia Tech at all. It was the Appalachian School of Law in Grundy, not far away.
"It was January 16, 2002 when Peter Odighizuwa came to campus. He had been suspended due to failing grades. Odighizuwa was angry and waving a gun calling on students to 'come get me'. The students, seeing the gun, ran. A shooting spree started almost immediately. In seconds Odighizuwa had killed the school dean, a professor and one student. Three other students were shot as well, one in the chest, one in the stomach and one in the throat.
"Many students heard the shots. Two who did were Mikael Gross and Tracy Bridges. Mikael was outside the school having just returned to campus from lunch when he heard the shots. Tracy was inside attending class. Both immediately ran to their cars. Each had a handgun locked in the vehicle.
"Bridges pulled a .357 Magnum pistol and he later said he was prepared to shoot to kill if necessary. He and Gross both approached Odighizuwa at the same time from different directions. Both were pointing their weapons at him. Bridges yelled for Odighizuwa to drop his weapon. When the shooter realized they had the drop on him he threw his weapon down. A third student, unarmed, Ted Besen, approached the killer and was physically attacked.
"But Odighizuwa was now disarmed. The three students were able to restrain him and held him for the police. Odighizuwa is now in prison for the murders he committed. His killing spree ended when he faced two students with weapons. There would be no further victims that day, thanks to armed resistance.
"You wouldn’t know much about that though. Do you wonder why? The media, though it widely reported the attack left out the fact that Bridges and Gross were armed. Most simply reported that the gunman was jumped and subdued by other students. That two of those students were now armed didn’t get a mention.
"James Eaves-Johnson wrote about this fact one week later in The Daily Iowan. He wrote: 'A Lexus-Nexis search revealed 88 stories on the topic, of which only two mentioned that either Bridges or Gross was armed.' This 2002 article noted 'This was a very public shooting with a lot of media coverage.' But the media left out information showing how two students with firearms ended the killing spree.
Paul, you're leaving out a very important fact in this story: Tracy Bridges was a COP who also happened to be a student at the law school. He was a trained law enforcement professional who knew exactly what he was doing.
Anyway, we don't even know if this is the correct version of what happened, because the student that tackled Odighizuwa to the ground, Ted Bresen, said this month he already had him on the ground before the other two approached with their guns, and that the facts in this story have been highly distorted: http://www.wavy.com/Global/story.asp?S=6424001&nav=23ii
Posted by on April 27, 2007 04:11 PMRon: "Brian is 100% right!!! You cowards step aside and let the brave concealed carry people protect your worthless butts"
One of the problems with guns in the classroom is that there are people with Ron's mentality who think that people who disagree with them are "worthless butts", and who think that carrying a concealed weapon is an act of bravery; such people are likely to carry guns into the classroom. You never know when such a mentality will go over the edge.
Posted by Truth on April 27, 2007 04:25 PMOne big problem is that many in the gun lobby successfully oppose laws which allow for law enforcement agencies to share information about the people who have gun permits, as well as laws which would permit law enforcement agencies to have information about what persons have serious mental problems. Surely everyone agrees that it would be better if a would-be classroom did not have a gun. While such a person might be able to acquire a gun illegally, nonetheless such laws would likely keep guns out of the hands of many dangerous people. We need to strengthen rather than weaken the ability of law enforcement to keep guns out of the hands of the dangerous.
Posted by Truth on April 27, 2007 04:32 PMGun control means use both hands; I prefer the Weaver stance, myself.
The REALITY, folks:
A gun in the hand beats a cop on the phone every time..
I would rather be judged by twelve than carried by six.
I just read the article about the bust that was made by the DPD that concerned all the drugs & guns that were confiscated. The guns weren't just for show, they were USED by people who didn't care who they killed with them.
Posted by Art from Evergreen on April 27, 2007 08:40 PMIs Art saying he opposes any gun control whatsoever? Hard to say because he was too busy being cute.
Posted by Truth on April 27, 2007 08:53 PMArt comments make sense.
Guns will never be hard to obtain. Heroin has been illegal for a long time and I'm betting that if a person wants to get some, it wouldn't take long to do so.
Gun control laws will only hurt good citizens. The bad guys will always have guns. Not only that, the government has a lot of guns and they are getting scarier day by day. If the day came, as it did in Germany, when the gov't wants to wield more power than it's citizens have legally given it, it would be good to have a gun or two to defend your home.
That's what the 2nd ammendment was originally penned to protect us from, isn't it?
And a cop on the phone beats a whole SWAT team at Columbine,even if they were Truth's friends.
Posted by Jimminy on April 27, 2007 11:40 PMA couple of points to ponder.
1) Why don't you concealed carry-fans just carry a gun in plain sight? Perfectly legal. Why does it need to be concealed? What is the purpose of concealed carry permits? Is it to deter crime? It seems to me that a .357 in a holster would do the job. It wouldn't surprise me if some nutcase with a concealed gun actally instigated a fight just so he show how big and bad he was by getting to shoot someone.
2) I have no problem with wanting to carry in plain sight. However, it appears to many (particularly like Ron) that carrying a concealed gun helps make up for some shortcoming in their manhood. If you all are so brave, just carry in plain sight.
i would carry a gun in plain site, it seems that people are less likly to mess with a person carrying a gun in plain site , does anyone know the laws on this?
good one truth. I am sure you stand up and bash Bush for defending the country and sing with the chior on the illigal wire taps, but here you want every bit of information on some on with a gun.
the only one being cute is you. you really should sign everything trurth according to me, and the rest of you are wrong.
Bo I bet if someone was holding a gun on you, you may start thinking that if I had one two it would be equal at this point. but you see any one who carries a gun to rob or kill people know that the chance you would have a gun is so small because of all the anti gun laws the anti gun crowd want. BTW I do carry a gun every day and its in plan sight and I am not a cop.
Many pro-gun people oppose laws which permit law enforcement agencies from sharing information with each other about the people to whom they have given gun permits, and oppose laws which permit such agencies to share information about ballistics, and from obtaining information about people who have mental problems.
Why?
About unconcealed weapons. The reason people want to conceal their guns is because they are embarrassed.
Why?
So you anti-gun zealots are fine with trampling my 2nd Amendment rights just so you can feel better yet you same people scream in agony about the Constitution being dimantled by Bush when he passed the Patriot Act. (???)
Your logic is amiss but your anger is showing spot on.
Posted by KW on April 28, 2007 08:46 AMKW, while your post is just a rant without reason, it raises the question of whether you would support laws designed to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill people, or whether you think they have second amendment rights that preclude this.
It likewise raises the question of whether you think people's second amendment rights are being trampled because they aren't allowed to carry a gun into the Capitol or the White House or the courtroom or the commercial airplanes or any of the other places where you get searched before being allowed entry?
"scream in agony"? Come on, KW, having a different opinon from you does not equate with "screaming in agony". Do you have any examples of gun control people "screaming in agony" or are you just ranting?
Posted by Truth on April 28, 2007 09:02 AMTruth wrote: "About unconcealed weapons. The reason people want to conceal their guns is because they are embarrassed."
Truth, with all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about here. Your ideaology seems to be preventing you from thinking logically.
The truth is that a concealed weapon gives a defender an advantage over an attacker. If only one or a few are armed, it wouldn't take a rocket scientist for an attacker to decide who he needed to take out first if defenders carried unconcealed weapons. Thus, concealing the weapon helps a defender maintain an upper hand in case of attack.
Think about the air marshall program. You don't see uniformed cops on airplanes. The air marshalls blend into the crowd -- so that they have an advantage over would be hijackers.
The same holds true for all concealed carriers. It isn't a matter of embarrassment. It is cold, hard logic to maximize the benefit of carrying a weapon in the first place.
Posted by Joe on April 28, 2007 09:31 AM
Truth wrote: "Do you have any examples of gun control people "screaming in agony" or are you just ranting?"
You can't be serious, can you? I think if you simply read the posts here on a daily basis you'd find hundreds of examples. The Bush haters club can never stop complaining about the Patriot Act. They get really ticked off because now the FBI can listen in on their calls to terrorist friends overseas. I just didn't realize so many people were affected by this.
But like you guys say, it's ok to trample certain Constitutional rights to make this a safer society, right?
Posted by KW on April 28, 2007 09:42 AMBo and Truth are cowards.You can tell by what they have to say.Everything they say comes from fear and distrust of the citizens.
Posted by Ron on April 28, 2007 10:00 AMBo and Truth would rather more students are shot to death as long as they "feel" safe.These guys would not pick up a gun to defend their family.I know liberals like these.Come on guys.Tell the "TRUTH".
Posted by Ron on April 28, 2007 10:09 AMTruth, and Bo you ask why not carry unconcealed?
Sure it is not illegal to do so in most of the state, but many fearful people will call the police to complain that someone has a GUN. The cops show up and treat you like a criminal, and unless you have a very good story they WILL confiscate your gun and hold it until you jump through red tape hoops or hire a lawyer to help get your property back.
It is not easy to get a CC permit. Proving you are law abiding, keeping your record clean and regular practice makes for a committed citizen. Permitted concealed weapon carriers are not the nutjobs you think carry a weapon.
To declare that a CC permit holder would just go off and shoot the neighborhood up for having a bad day is projection. You may not be stable enough to carry, but don't tell the permit holders that they cannot do so.
You should feel safe knowing of a CC permit holder is nearby. The dangerous weapons carriers are criminals that have no regard for the law nor their citizenship.
Posted by holyreality on April 28, 2007 10:39 AM[Sorry for any duplicate postings. I have yet to figure out how to put links in posts - it seems to delay or prevent the comment from getting posted.]
To answer Anderson's question (3rd comment): "Do you suppose the crime Furnish was actually charged with was "possession of a deadly weapon" rather than some more benign term?" I considered that myself. Here is the relevant portion of the Regents Policies (#14-I):
"the possession of the firearms, explosives, or other dangerous or illegal weapons on or within any University of Colorado campus, leased building, other area under the jurisdiction of the local campus police department or areas where such possession interferes with the learning and working environment is prohibited."
source url: www.cusys.edu/regents/Policies/Policy14I.htm
The word "deadly" does not appear on the page.
--
Here are a few other articles on "gun free zones"
My article in the Colorado Freedom Report: (many links to references)
Guns on Campus: Irrational Fears Limit Concealed Carry
url: www.freecolorado.com/2003/02/cuccw.html
On Virginia Tech, by Peter Lemieux, Independent Institute, Oakland, CA. Lemieux relates stories of school shootings outside the United States.
url: www.independent.org/newsroom/article.asp?id=1958
Dave Kopel on Gun Free Zones, originally published in The Wall Street Journal:
url: www.tinyurl.com/39yanu
Thank you for looking that up, Mr. Schwartz, but my instincts were correct. The crime for which Mr. Furnish is being charged is possession of a deadly weapon. That's the term used in the law which should be evident from the context of the article where it says he's being charged with "two counts of..."
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5495822,00.html
If you want further verification, see Colorado's Revised Statutes at 18-12-105.5. The statute further reveals that the definition of "deadly weapon" is not limited to just a firearm but to other instruments such as knives, which were also found in Furnish's possession.
So I think your complaint that the Rocky Mtn News is somehow coloring the story is misplaced. They were just stating a fact. Furnish was charged with possession of a "deadly weapon".
Posted by anderson on April 28, 2007 12:48 PMIt is not surprising that KW avoided these questions because he prefers to scream in agony:
KW, while your post is just a rant without reason, it raises the question of whether you would support laws designed to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill people, or whether you think they have second amendment rights that preclude this.
It likewise raises the question of whether you think people's second amendment rights are being trampled because they aren't allowed to carry a gun into the Capitol or the White House or the courtroom or the commercial airplanes or any of the other places where you get searched before being allowed entry?
Posted by Truth on April 28, 2007 03:27 PM"It is not surprising that KW avoided these questions because he prefers to scream in agony:"
I guess you've never heard that saying about black pots and black kettles.
Posted by on April 28, 2007 10:44 PMThis sounds like Truth and Bo."One who yields unworthily to fear of pain or harm".This is the definition for "Coward."
Posted by Ron on April 29, 2007 01:56 AMActually, coward is a person like you who out of fear avoids answering such questions.
Let me remind you what they are:
KW, while your post is just a rant without reason, it raises the question of whether you would support laws designed to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill people, or whether you think they have second amendment rights that preclude this.
It likewise raises the question of whether you think people's second amendment rights are being trampled because they aren't allowed to carry a gun into the Capitol or the White House or the courtroom or the commercial airplanes or any of the other places where you get searched before being allowed entry?
Posted by Truth on April 29, 2007 06:30 AM"i would carry a gun in plain site, it seems that people are less likly to mess with a person carrying a gun in plain site , does anyone know the laws on this?"
About a year ago I saw a guy with two big pistols on his belt and a broadsword on his back walking calm as could be down the street. Either it's legal, or that guy didn't care about deadly weapon laws.
Posted by on April 29, 2007 10:31 AMHere is one for you Truth[Coward].Do you think people that are so mentally ill they can not be trusted with a firearm should be locked up?After all they can not be trusted in public with anything dangerous item like a knife,car,ax,bat etc.Should they be allowed to vote?Also the security at the White House and the Capitol is so high that the shooter at VT would not have lasted 2 seconds.Are you and your friends willing to pay the money it will cost to provide the kind of security at colleges that is at the White House? We that think that people at colleges should be allowed to carry concealed will not have to foot the bill for increased security.
Posted by Ron on April 29, 2007 10:42 AMRon, I forgive you for not being willing to address my questions, which were:
KW, while your post is just a rant without reason, it raises the question of whether you would support laws designed to keep guns out of the hands of mentally ill people, or whether you think they have second amendment rights that preclude this.
It likewise raises the question of whether you think people's second amendment rights are being trampled because they aren't allowed to carry a gun into the Capitol or the White House or the courtroom or the commercial airplanes or any of the other places where you get searched before being allowed entry?
Posted by Truth on April 29, 2007 11:39 AMTruth I know why you did not answer my questions.First you do not care if the mentally ill kill people and commit crimes.You are just anti-gun and want more limits on firearms.You probably have a whole list of people that you consider "too" mentally ill to own a gun.Also you do not acknowledge the fact that the White House has security so tight that no one is in danger.Your real purpose is to limit guns in places where the public do not have near the security.For instance everywhere the regular citizen has to go.Face facts Truth you are anti-gun and would ban guns everywhere because you are a "Coward".
Posted by Ron on April 29, 2007 05:24 PMYou keep that up, Ron, and I'll put you on that list you mentioned. Anyhow, if you had been scared as a child by a toy gun in the hands of a mean ole girl, you'd be afraid too. Actually, guns aren't what scare me; it's the thought of people like you having a gun that is scary. We really do need to do something about the mentally ill.
Posted by Truth on April 29, 2007 07:43 PMTruth admits he dose not want anyone to own a gun and considers all US citizens mentally ill that do not agree with him/her.Pass this number on to all gun owners.1-877-NRA-2000 and join the NRA today.It is the best defense we have against the anti Second Amendment crowd.
Posted by Ron on April 30, 2007 07:46 AMRe. Anderson's comment about Colorado's Revised Statutes at 18-12-105.5. Someone quoted them on the Boulder Daily Camera site, which was easier to find than the original source. In any case, if the statutes refer to a "deadly weapon," then I suppose it is fair to use that term in explaining why the CU student was arrested. (My letter asked if it was fair.)
So in a sense it's good news to me that the reporters are more objective than I suspected. Yet, I would expect statutes to be worded in a neutral way - many objects can become "deadly weapons" if used for that purpose. Using that phrase reminds me of the PATRIOT Act, named in part so opponents could made to look bad for being "unpatriotic." I thought rhetorical devices would be stripped out of the statutes.
Thanks for checking up on that, Anderson.
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