Survey the troops
Survey the troops
W
Government might find out the truth, they have never adhered to that policy yet, why start now?
Posted by sam18 on April 30, 2007 05:52 AMnobody asked us for our feeling in Nam. The only person who looked out for us was Nixon as he ended the war JFK and LBJ started. we just went over there for no reason.
Being a vet I will tell you that its the congress and all the anti war group.
Nixon was elected in part because he had a "secret plan" to end the war in Vietnam. Turns out the secret was that he would drag it out for an additional six years and expand it into Cambodia. Don't pretend that all the Vietnam mistakes were made by Democrats.
Posted by Docjay on April 30, 2007 07:57 AMTo find out for myself, I simply went to the troops, their spouses and, in some cases, Gold Star moms and dads.
Of the hundreds of these folks I have met with since Reid said our troops are losers, none have agreed with him. In fact, they are more than angry; many call him a traitor. Some want him tried for treason and, if found guilty, hung by the neck until dead.
However, you can be assured that our forces are not going to allow the likes of Reid and his supporters to permanently effect their morale and ability to kill the enemy. They know what Reid is up to, I promise you, and will simply stride over his slime trail and carry on.
A reminder: in this country, citizens determine our foreign policy, including the use of armed forces. Our troops do not make policy, they only carry out their mission.
Posted by anderson on April 30, 2007 10:10 AMAnderson:
Who told you citizens determine foreign policy? That is 100% false. The president does that. Nor do citizens determine what our troops do. According to the Constitution, that, too, is decided upon by the commander in chief.
Posted by Gunny Bob on April 30, 2007 10:16 AMGunny Bob: "Of the hundreds of these folks I have met with"
Yeah, sure you have, Gunny Bob. Now take your medication for those delusions.
Posted by Truth on April 30, 2007 10:22 AMGunny Bob, the President is a civilian. Our Congress is made up of civilians. They represent we the people (also civilians). In short, the military does not control the government in this country. It's a subtle point, but one I wanted to make in the face of those (such as you and the letter writer above) who like to hold out our troops as being the arbiters of what we should be doing.
Posted by anderson on April 30, 2007 10:58 AMA:
You said "citizens," not "civilians."
Posted by Gunny Bob on April 30, 2007 11:19 AMA guess that's what you call a senior citizen moment (even if I'm not that senior).
Posted by anderson on April 30, 2007 11:35 AMWow!
I can only ask my brother in law, who is an active duty Navy Seal. He supports the war effort in both Iraq and Afghanistan, and was disgusted by the comments of Senator Reid.
For those that don't understand what is granted to the President, it is in Article II of the Constitution:
The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States;
I'm not sure what Anderson was trying to say? The original letter writer appeared to be requesting a poll of the troops. Nothing more, nothing less.
Posted by Dan2 on April 30, 2007 11:38 AM"Reid said our troops were losers..." Reid said no such thing, Gummy Bob - I know you're following Bush/Cheney's lead - but please stop lying - the people of this country caught on to your crap a long time ago. Only slime-trailed, dishonest loser around here is you, Gummy.
Posted by Drew on April 30, 2007 11:38 AMI'm in Baghdad right now. The nicest description I can report that the "troops" have for Reid is "seditous, backstabbing bastard". His comments are more dangerous to the safety of us deployed folks than the actions all of our enemies combined.
Posted by clayusmcret on April 30, 2007 11:58 AMDan2, on this thread you see people (including yourself) saying that we should, or should not, be in Iraq--based on troop opinion--as if to say, they should really know what's right in this matter. I'm not saying their opinions are not valuable or wanted. They are. But they are not the ones who make foreign policy decisions in this country, nor are they in the best position to make them.
When I was an enlisted man, I was not qualified by training or inclination to think about foreign policy. I was taught to follow orders, and then to be a leader. So I wish people would stop using the troops to prove whatever point they're trying to make about policy. Notwithstanding claims made to the contrary here, I suspect you would get a variety of opinions from our troops.
Posted by anderson on April 30, 2007 12:08 PMclayusmcret,
"His comments are more dangerous to the safety of us deployed folks than the actions all of our enemies combined."
You're pretty hilarious. How about supporting this inane comment with some concrete reasoning?
Posted by Charles B on April 30, 2007 12:10 PMGunny Bob,
"Of the hundreds of these folks I have met with since Reid said our troops are losers, none have agreed with him. In fact, they are more than angry; many call him a traitor. Some want him tried for treason and, if found guilty, hung by the neck until dead."
Even if it were true, it still would not be statistically relevant. I'm sure that you asked the question in a non-leading manner too, such as: "Do you agree with Senator Reid who called you a loser?"
Gunny you're just as ridiculous and hyperbolic in print as you are on your terrible radio program.
Posted by Charles B on April 30, 2007 12:14 PM"The nicest description I can report that the "troops" have for Reid is "seditous, backstabbing bastard". His comments are more dangerous to the safety of us deployed folks than the actions all of our enemies combined."
Seditious, my ass. Clay, we're not all stupid idiots here, so why do you talk as if we are? Oh, and who appointed you spokesperson for the troops?
That was my post at 12:19.
Charles, those who claim or insinuate the troops are all of one mind are obviously lying or exaggerating.
Posted by anderson on April 30, 2007 12:23 PMI was under the impression you folks wanted to know what the "troops" thought about it since that seemed to be the flavor of the ranting session. Well, I'm with the troops. Their positions are clear and they speak with a fairly consistent voice, but you really didn't want to hear that and you clearly don't want to know any different than what you personally believe. Sorry for the confusion on my part. Please continue your bash session. We (volunteers all) have work to do.
Posted by clayusmcret on April 30, 2007 01:01 PMThe media and the dems already know how the majority of the troops feel . They just hope we're not smart enough to figure it out as well.
Posted by KW on April 30, 2007 01:34 PMAnderson,
The topic of this thread began as 'Survey the Troops'
I am not making any assumption or opinion on if we should or should not be in Iraq, based on a poll of troops. I was merely obliging the letter writer with the information that I had, regarding one troop that I know very well.
I am sure that many will have an opinion on this matter, but I take no creed in polls as they are the opinion of the uniformed. Not once in this thread have I offered my personal opinion on the war, nor do I intend to, as I have made my researched opinion clear in many other posts related to this topic.
Posted by Dan2 on April 30, 2007 01:43 PMcluck cluck I am truth always just a cluck cluck. go listen to cnn or the daily show to increase you knowledge on nothing. If you were really as smart as you think you are, why are you not leading the world?
Posted by on April 30, 2007 04:41 PMUm, I'm waiting ...... When is someone going to blame the war in Iraq on illegal immigration? The resident racists on this forum must be asleep today ......
04:41: "cluck cluck I am truth always just a cluck cluck. go listen to cnn or the daily show to increase you knowledge on nothing. If you were really as smart as you think you are, why are you not leading the world?"
Dear Lord, for a minute there I thought maybe you had found me out. I've always preferred working behind the scenes. Have to go, there's a call from some world leader wanting to know what to do.
Posted by Truth on April 30, 2007 04:50 PMclayusmcret: "I'm in Baghdad right now."
Sure you are. But I got you beat. I'm in heaven right now and the Big Guy says I'm right.
Posted by on April 30, 2007 04:54 PMI am the universe, and my rightness is self-evident.
Posted by Charles B on April 30, 2007 07:56 PMGee Clay, you are with all 230,000 troops?
Must get crowded in that tent.
Clayhead. I hardly think you speak for the "troops". That's a little too self-serving for even you conservative hacks.
oops. I take that back, not it's not.
Posted by balthazar on April 30, 2007 08:40 PMclayusmcret: "I'm in Baghdad right now."
Sure you are. But I got you beat. I'm in heaven right now and the Big Guy says I'm right.
Posted by on April 30, 2007 04:54 PM
I noticed you didn't sign the post. Tell you what. Grow a pair and post your address, not even your name, but just your address (business address will do nicely) and the address will get a post card in ~12 days. It'll say something like, "Having a great time standing up for your right to stab us in the back just to get back at George. Really wish you were here. No, REALLY. Wish YOU were here. Sincerely, Clayusmcret"
Or if you think this is some kind of ruse to get your address, which it is not, feel free to call the paper and confirm that my few posts since 14 Feb have come from IZ. They should be tracking IP's. Or, please feel free to have them give me the address and have them pass it along. It would make a good story. You WILL get the post card in about 12 days from when I get the address.
As to the knee jerk responses claiming I'm trying to speak for "all" the troops". Nope, not trying. But I can speak for the ones who've spoken to me on this latest of three deployments to Iraq. It has been a fairly good number and most all speak with the same voice. Sorry to disrupt your projection of your hatred of Bush onto the troops. It's just not there in the numbers you want it to be. Oh, and before I get accused of being a repub, nope. Never was one. Just never will be a dem again.
Posted by clayusmcret on April 30, 2007 10:02 PMclayusmcret,
Regardless of your location or the veracity of your reported polling results, the fact remains that your anecdotal evidence is not statistically relevant.
Arguments can't be won by anecdote.
The underlying premise for questions like "do the troops support the mission.", or "do the troops support the President." is flawed.
Of course the troops do both. They've committed their lives to the mission. They have sworn loyalty to their country and will follow their commanders into battle, just as a good soldier should, regardless of their personal feelings about the righteousness of it.
But that's all irrelevant to the political question of whether we have "lost" or not, or whether it was a good idea to invade Iraq, or whether swearing an oath of political loyalty to George Bush or not is an accurate barometer of ones patriotism.
There is a deeper meaning to the discussion about winning and losing that I think many are missing.
In life and especially in war, sometimes there are no winners.
So what can we salvage out of this? That's a politically relevant question that needs to be asked regardless of how the troops feel.
Posted by Charles B on May 1, 2007 12:09 AMhttp://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2006-12-29-poll-iraq_x.htm
"WASHINGTON — The American military, once a staunch supporter of President Bush and the Iraq war, has grown increasingly pessimistic about chances for victory."
"For the first time, more troops disapprove of the president's handling of the war than approve of it, according to the 2006 Military Times Poll."
"When the military was feeling most optimistic about the war — in 2004 — 83% of poll respondents thought success in Iraq was likely. This year, that number has shrunk to 50%."
"Only 35% of the military members polled this year said they approve of the way Bush is handling the war, and 42% said they disapprove. While approval of the president's war leadership has slumped, his overall approval remains high among the military."
"Just as telling, in this year's poll only 41% of the military said the U.S. should have gone to war in Iraq in the first place, down from 65% in 2003. That closely reflects the beliefs of the general population — 45% agreed in a recent USA TODAY-Gallup poll."
Posted by Truth on May 1, 2007 06:51 AMClayusmcret.....You and the rest of the troops are my heroes!!!!!!!
Thank you ALL for your allegiance and loyalty to America. Because of courageous men/women such as yourself, I can get on posts like this and say any words that I choose. Come home safely!! I am proud of all of you!!!!!! Harry Ried's 'nads are in cold storage.
" An Israeli government commission accused Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of having decided hastily to go to war and neglecting to ask for a detailed military plan."
Hmm, I'm trying to think who that reminds me of.
Posted by Truth on May 1, 2007 09:01 AMSweetie Pie says that Harry Reid has no gonads. Sweetie, it doesn't take gonads to send other people into war.
What about Chuck Hagel, a decorated veteran of the Vietnam war and a staunch conservative. He voted with the Democrats. Does that mean he doesn't have any gonads?
Sweetie, be a nice girl now and remember to think before you post.
Posted by Truth on May 1, 2007 09:21 AMIf someone told our troops "The democrats and Harry Reid have won, you are all going home asap" I wonder what they would say, if polled?
if they were given the chance to stay on in Iraq and fight for or help the people, as a volunteer unit under command of the Iraq forces that we have trained, Would they?
Even at triple the pay do you think many would stay and fight on for the Iraqs?
Posted by Sharon B. on May 1, 2007 10:19 AMThere has been surveys of what the troops think.Liberal propanda outlets just will not air or print them.Outlets like cnn,abc,cbs,npr,nbc,n.y. times,l.a.times,101 gannet papers,knight ridder,etc.etc. and of course yhe rmn and denver post.They had repeatedly said they are winning this just war even though the dems in congress are trying to lose it,that the dems are lieing to the American people.That these lib.outlets are printing false stories.You childs left behind would know this if only you would do some research.
Posted by Keith on May 1, 2007 10:31 AMI'm thinking, yeah, I'm thinking and on second thought, Harry Reid was more than likely gelded(they geld jackasses don't they?) when he joined the Democratic party.
They probably stuck them on Hillary so she wouldn't have to "stay home and bake cookies" anymore.
"I am the universe, and my rightness is self-evident."
Charles, how did you know Clay would answer, and answer so perfectly?
But this isn't so much about Clay. Your later comments about the larger picture were well spoken.
Posted by anderson on May 1, 2007 10:58 AMIraq is a quagmire, American kids die daily in a pointless civil war which is none of our business, Osama relaxes in Pakistan, we are spending our kids into oblivion in this war of choice and with his stupid policies Bush is recruiting more terrorists by the day - and yet nut jobs like Sweetie Pie and Keith continue to parrot Cheney's ridiculous talking points.
And if you want to mention gonads, let's talk about Bush who opted for the Texas Air National Guard instead of Vietnam - and then went AWOL. Or Cheney, Wolfowitz & the rest who were too yellow to even put on a uniform. But they have the "gonads" to put other people's kids in harm's way.
There are only 2 options for the wingnut nation: either these people keep repeating the same garbage because they're embarrassed and don't know what else to say OR they're incredibly stupid - I lean towards the latter.
"But they have the "gonads" to put other people's kids in harm's way." Posted by Drew on May 1, 2007 12:05 PM
Last post. This is too much like trying to teach a pig to sing and he who was so brave, behind a nameless posting, showed his lack of strength in his own convictions.
One of my own sons "is" also over here near me. the other tried to come but could not. I not only risk my own life, but am honored to know my sons understands so much more than some "learned men and women" how important this is as well. Muffle your hatreds of Bush long enough to follow a retreat to its logical solution. You'll stop this silly s**t. Good day.
Posted by clayusmcret on May 1, 2007 12:57 PM'Clayusmcret.....You and the rest of the troops are my heroes!!!!!!!
Thank you ALL for your allegiance and loyalty to America. Because of courageous men/women such as yourself, I can get on posts like this and say any words that I choose. Come home safely!! I am proud of all of you!!!!!! Harry Ried's 'nads are in cold storage.'
You are partially right, the troops are hero's and some of us are free to write anything they want. King George tries to stifle or silence anyone that does not toe the line. Remember Joseph Wilson and Valery Plame,? How about people ejected from government funded speeches by King George? What about the 360 out of 384 people that the government has stashed at Guantanamo Bay that they do not have any evidence that they should be there! There are thirty something people that the government will admit that they have no ties to terrorism , but will not release them. I guess being embarrassed that they held them in the first place is valid enough reason to lock them up and throw away the key.
George Bush had a brain transplant from a hamster. Why? Because the hamster brain was bigger then his!
clayusmcret:
I refer to my post:" either these people keep repeating the same garbage because they're embarrassed and don't know what else to say OR they're incredibly stupid. " And after reading your latest undecipherable jumble, I rest my case.
Drew,
"American kids die daily in a pointless civil war "
Last I checked Drew, these were ADULTS who volunteered to serve in the armed forces.
Why do liberals always need to create dramatics rather than sticking with the facts?
Posted by KW on May 1, 2007 01:48 PMWell, what facts do you care to posit, KW? Or is your main purpose here merely to cut down the opinions of others? Sports announcers frequently call college athletes who are the same age as Iraq soldiers "kids". Do you scream "liberal" at your television set, and tell them they are wrong? Or in this case is liberal just a put-down you use when you've run out of arguments (It works quite well on talk radio where there are no dissenting voices, but maybe not so well in other venues).
Posted by anderson on May 1, 2007 01:59 PMAnderson - Considering you have to be 18 to join the service I'm not sure what facts you need me to present.
How about we just call these brave people what they are without trying to tug at heart strings. They are men and women of the armed forces.
Your comparison to a college game isn't quite the same. Nobody is shooting at the BBall team. Drews description was obviously trying to draw the mental image of children getting slaughtered.
Proper and acurate perspective is always important in any discussion.
Posted by KW on May 1, 2007 02:42 PMKW,
An 18 year old in my eyes is a "kid" - that's what's so sad about their deaths. You so out of ammo for your lame arguments that you have to start splitting hairs about terminology? Get a thesaurus for pity sake.
Posted by Drew on May 1, 2007 03:04 PMClay, if the Democrats could end this war today and brilng all of you home tomorrow, would you still want to stay?
Why can`t you see that we value you over the people in Iraq? They may be fine people but they want to kill each other over minute religious diferences and we want all of you out of this mess.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 1, 2007 03:11 PMThe original letter's suggestion to survey the troops leaves a key quesiton unanswered: which troops?
There are two types of soldiers fighting on America's behalf. As Gen. Petreaus recently explained, tens of thousands of "private contractors," augment the official number of American troops. Petreaus explains how the combined number of these two types of fighters is required to approach (but alas not attain) the troop level his own counter-insurgency doctrine requires to hold a country the size of Iraq. In otherwords, they are an intentional and necessary part of the current military policy, such as it is.
The employers of these private contractors are profit-driven corporations that make their money only when there is conflict. If the war ends, either by America winning or losing, they stop making money. Perversely, it is in their interest that this conflict remain open-ended, as long as they can bill America for their services.
So if we were to design a survey of the "troops" as the original letter suggested, and the question was "Do you want America to win or lose in Iraq?" in addition to 'yes' and 'no' we'd need a 'none of the above' response.
It is both creepy and pathetic that America counts these types of mercenaries among the band of brothers we send in harms way.
Posted by on May 1, 2007 05:22 PMTruth, YOU ARE SUCH A TOOL!!!
Chuch Hagel is a RINO and the furthest thing from a "staunce conservative". Thats like saying Zell Miller is a diehard liberal.
Dont you work? Wait,let me guess,you post your crap all day while you are supposed to be working.Stick to the man and all that huh? Give us all a break and give it a rest for just a coupe of days wiil you please?
prettyplease,
"Chuch Hagel is a RINO and the furthest thing from a "staunce conservative"."
You illustrate perfectly a phenominon of catagorization amongst Authoritarian Bush Cultists:
You are conservative if you support Bush.
You are not conservative if you don't support Bush.
Ask any number of former Bush cabinet members and whistleblowers who have lived lives as conservatives only to have their status revoked once they find their moral rudder and come clean regarding their complicity in the disaster that Dear Leader has wrought.
You sir, are no conservative, no matter what amount of red-faced stamping that you do.
Posted by Charles B on May 1, 2007 07:02 PMdrew,you are definitely a village idiot,you refuse to find out the facts. You just keep on repeating documented lies made up by democrats.You are not smart enough to know you are being takened advantage of.
Posted by Keith on May 2, 2007 12:10 PMdrew,you are definitely a village idiot,you refuse to find out the facts. You just keep on repeating documented lies made up by democrats.You are not smart enough to know you are being takened advantage of.
Posted by Keith on May 2, 2007 12:10 PMYup, I'm always takened advantage of by those brainwashing commies - save me, Keith, you tough Wingnut!
Posted by Drew on May 2, 2007 12:58 PM