American society has degenerated
Wars have been fought since the beginning of time. However, students being murdered in cold blood is a new phenomena. To blame the war in Iraq for all the senseless school shootings is ignorant.
These weren’t taking place during either of the world wars nor during Vietnam.
I attended high school and college in the late ’60s and early ’70s and no one even dreamed of someone entering a classroom with a gun and mowing down kids.
So, what’s changed? Prayer no longer exists in schools — it’s illegal. Violent rap music, movies and video games are rampant. And the supervision, love and rules that once defined my home are now rare in our society.
The basic, traditional moral values of our nation have been undermined by liberal judges, the media and Hollywood. God forbid we deny anyone their freedom of speech.
And now I’m subjected to the ranting and raving of a cold-blooded murderer? Wake up, America.
Holly Bjornsen, Parker
Holly - Well said & amen
Posted by Frank on May 1, 2007 03:52 PMI don't think that not allowing prayer in school, violent music, movies, and video games are to blame for the upsurge in violent behavior in American society. I didn't have prayer in school, I listened to heavy metal (and still do), I love very violent movies, and have played many violent video games; I haven't shot anyone nor would I dream of doing so. In fact, I've turned out to be a solid citizen of this country.
No, I think the real culprits are in the second half of Holly's letter: lack of parental love and discipline combined with good old fashioned American greed. Parents regard their kids as objects and nothing more or try to make up for their lost dreams by living their lives through their kids. If only parents would treat their kids as individuals and give them the love and guidance they need, life would be much different.
Posted by Welsh Dragon on May 1, 2007 04:06 PMBeing a secular liberal, it is morally repugnant to use a tradegy for political gain or to blame everybody who is not like you.
Holly obviously hasn't been paying attention to the news when she was in schoolor she would know about the Bell tower shootings in Texas. She also never paid attention to history to know that 42 kids where killed 1920s Pennsylvania because some madman didn't want to pay for school taxes.
In every culture and time there are sociopaths, no group including christianity is exempt.
Holly why don't you wake up and talk to people who are different than you instead of blaming them.
Posted by D on May 1, 2007 04:30 PMThe republican plan for the future: go back to the eighteenth century!
Posted by Tbone on May 1, 2007 04:47 PMI refer now to a description from Dr. Martin Haskell's own instruction manual, "Dilation and Extraction for Late Second Trimester Abortion." It was included in presentation materials of the National Abortion Federation (notice this is a powerful, pro-abortion organization), entitled "Second Trimester Abortion: From Every Angle," pages 30-31. This material was distributed at the NAF Fall Risk Management Seminar, held September 13-14, 1992, in Dallas, Texas.
"The surgeon introduces a large grasping forceps, such as a Bierer or Hern, through the vaginal and cervical canals into the corpus of the uterus.... When the instrument appears on the sonogram screen, the surgeon is able to open and close its jaws to firmly and reliably grasp a lower extremity. The surgeon then applies firm traction to the instrument causing aversion of the fetus (if necessary) and pulls the extremity into the vagina....
"With a lower extremity in the vagina, the surgeon uses his fingers to deliver the opposite lower extremity, then the torso, the shoulders and the upper extremities.
"The skull lodges at the internal cervical [opening]....The fetus is oriented dorsum or spine up. At this point, the right-handed surgeon slides the fingers of the left hand along the back of the fetus and 'hooks' the shoulders of the fetus with the index and ring fingers (palm down)....
"While maintaining this tension, lifting the cervix and applying traction to the shoulders with the fingers of the left hand, the surgeon takes a pair of blunt curved Metzenbaum scissors in the right hand. He carefully advances the tip, curved down, along the spine and under his middle finger until he feels it contact the base of the skull under the tip of his middle finger.
"...The surgeon then forces the scissors into the base of the skull or into foramen magnum. Having safely entered the skull, he spreads the scissors to enlarge the opening.
"The surgeon removes the scissors and introduces a suction catheter into this hole and evacuates the skull contents. With the catheter still in place, he applies traction to the fetus, removing it completely from the patient."
This procedure is almost never done before viability.[4] By Haskell's own admission, two thirds of the children are still alive when he "forces the scissors into the base of the skull." He adds, "When I do the instrumentation on the skull [thrusting the scissors into the cranium]...it destroys the brain sufficiently so that even if it (the fetus) falls out at that point, it's definitely not alive."
Liberals actually oppose banning this procedure.
Posted by John II on May 1, 2007 07:04 PMLink
Brenda Pratt Shafer, a registered nurse from Dayton, Ohio, assisted Dr. Haskell in a Partial Birth Abortion on a 26-1/2 week (over 6 months) pre-born baby boy. She testified before the Senate Judiciary Committee (on 11/17/95) about what she witnessed. According to nurse Shafer, the baby was alive and moving as the abortionist “delivered the baby’s body and arms - everything but the head. The doctor kept the baby’s head just inside the uterus. The baby’s little fingers were clasping and unclasping, his feet were kicking. Then the doctor stuck the scissors through the back of his head, and the baby’s arms jerked out in a flinch, a startle reaction, like a baby does when he thinks he might fall. The doctor opened up the scissors, stuck a high-powered suction tube into the opening and sucked the baby’s brains out. Now the baby was completely limp.”
Sigh. Canard after canard after canard.
It is not illegal to pray in schools. It IS illegal for compulsory parayer led by school staff. If you want to bring a bible to school and read it at lunch, or say grace, or form a bible club, you can. If your school distict won't let you they are violating the law, and the (gasp) ACLU will probably take your case.
Youth violence has been on a downward trrend for well over a decade, despite rap music and Grand Theft Auto. The plural of anecdote is not data, and the plural of incident is not "EVERYBODY PANIC!"
And activist judge always equals "Judge who made a decision I don't like". For shame, Holly.
Posted by MM on May 1, 2007 07:22 PMI would guess the mother wanted that baby with all her heart or she would have aborted sooner. In the last couple of Sundays rocky Mountain News, there were two articles about late term abortions, but oddly none of the pro-birth folks would read the articles.
This procedure is used early on when the fetus is very tiny and late term when there is a medical problem, but it is wrong to link all these as late term, or by ommision lump them together. Sunday before last a mother told her story of placental displacement and her late term abortion. Compelling reading for those who are always on the side of the fetus, without knowing the facts.
So compelling that they will not discuss it.
Partial delivery abortions, late term, are rare but pro-birthers put all this type together.
This misleads the few undecided into believing these late PDA`s are common.
This is grown -ups hiding behind the tiny bodies of the aborted for their own agendas.
Posted by on May 1, 2007 07:34 PM"ARE THEY PERFORMED ONLY ON SEVERELY DEFORMED BABIES?
That is what the abortion industry would like you to believe. But Dr. Haskell said in a tape recorded interview with the AMA’s American Medical News: “...and I’ll be quite frank: most of my abortions are elective (not medically necessary) in that 20-24 week range ... In my particular case, probably 20% are for genetic reasons. And the other 80% are purely elective.” An article in the L.A. Times (8/28/96) listed some of the medical reasons for this type of abortion. They included cleft palates, cystic hygroma, (both easily corrected problems) and cystic fibrosis. The medical conditions present in the mother that warranted this type of abortion were, “depression, chicken pox, diabetes, vomiting ...” In other words, even those partial birth abortions that are done for the “health of the mother” or because of a “defective fetus” are often performed for minor, easily correctable conditions. Dr. C. Everett Coop, former U.S. Surgeon General, stated, “... in no way can I twist my mind to see that the late-term abortion as described is a medical necessity for the mother. It certainly can’t be a necessity for the baby.”
IS THIS TYPE OF ABORTION EVER DONE ON THIRD TRIMESTER BABIES?
Yes. While most babies are in their 20th to 24th week when aborted in this manner, babies are aborted as late as the ninth month! This was admitted to by abortionist Dr. McMahon who, in 1995, submitted to the House Judiciary Constitution Subcommittee a graph and explanation that showed he aborted healthy babies even in the third trimester!
As disturbing as this sounds, these are the facts. In this country medical doctors are partially delivering babies and then killing them. These babies are inches from being born. Many could be born and placed directly in the loving arms of childless couples for adoption. Instead, they are cruelly killed. Some call this abortion. No matter what you call it, you cannot alter the reality - 4 more inches out of the womb and this act would be called murder."
Posted by John II on May 1, 2007 08:30 PMPlease note that this cut and paste job is from a poster , who said in another forum that the poor in America do not have the right to health care. It is not a right. Life is a right, although 50%of all pregnancies end in miscarrage, but health care, which we created, is not.
This man never writes about a necessary abortion, only those he can pick apart.
There are some awful women in this world, such as the ones who abandon a baby in a dumpster, and some have casual abortions. Still the area of abortion should between the woman and her doctor. It is better to err on the side of the women, then to err on the side of those who want to control women.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 1, 2007 09:15 PMSharon B.,
"who said in another forum that the poor in America do not have the right to health care."
Show me the exact quote where I supposedly said the poor "do not have a right to health care".
Posted by John II on May 1, 2007 09:23 PMSharon B.,
You said:
"There are some awful women in this world, such as the ones who abandon a baby in a dumpster, and some have casual abortions."
Are you saying that women who have abortions for non health risk reasons are "awful"? Why is it "awful"? Please don't avoid this question. Tell me why women who have casual abortions are "awful".
Posted by John II on May 1, 2007 09:36 PMBack in the pulpit again!
Oh! I'm Back in the pulpit again!
Where the empty headed feed
On the proceeds of their greed,
I'm back in the pulpit again!
Trying to make a big score;
By being the same old bore.
Watch me while I cut and paste
The same old tired blah and waste.
I'm back in the pulpit again!
Another anti-abortion sermon by your favorite reactionary preacher from the Church of Perfect Self-Righteousness and Holy Pomposity.
You haven't got enough brain for a forceps to grab, tool.
Posted by B. Drunk on May 1, 2007 10:22 PMIf there's any point to the original letter at all, it would appear that Holly was all upset about loss of prayer in the schools; the lack of 19th Century "morality" in the world, and "the ranting and raving of a cold blooded murder."
So, along comes John II, with a detailed story of a form of late term abortion that the Supreme Court recently said was now prohibited.
Does his publication of this mean that the bloody details of a clinical procedure are an illustration of a set of "better morals"? Or a reason for prayer in the schools? Or that the article should occupy the media rather than whatever came from the Virginia Tech killer?
Or are we just looking at a prime example of what gives a rather sick mind it's kicks - the holier than thou version of "pornography"?
Posted by Old Grouch on May 2, 2007 07:16 AMYou'd think someone who went to high school and college in the late 60s and early 70s would remember Kent State, People's Park, and other student/authority confrontations that often indeed ended in bloodshed. At least Charles Manson, Zodiac Killer, and other sixties sickos didn't go specifically after students, so Holly Bjornsen has a small point there. But no violent movies back then? Come on!
What a nice sheltered life Ms. Bjornsen must have led. Or else her memory's going. Times must be very bad indeed if people are starting to romanticize the late 60s and early 70s as a squeaky-clean moral time.
Posted by Hans Christian Brando on May 2, 2007 07:30 AMIt is interesting that Columbine and the VT massacres occurred in areas of dense Christian culture - Littleton was and is still heavily populated by Christian churches. The area around VT is Falwell country. I would not be too surprized if the next awful event were to happen in Colorado Springs or the like.
Posted by Comment on May 2, 2007 09:15 AMSo we're a coarse ,hypocritical,brutally violent society.....Happiness was always a warm gun.
Posted by Jimminy on May 2, 2007 09:39 AMbang, bang, shoot, shoot
Posted by on May 2, 2007 10:15 AMHolly,
Thank you for your courage and simply stating what is a "FACT". Just in reading many of the responses it is so apparent that
"TRUTH" is always confrontational and the darkness HATES" the light with such a fervant passion that it will attack it with all the venon it can muster in a weak effort to avoid facing what is true and evident with each passing day. We are sadly and very quickly heading for a destuction so severe and awful, as described in the book of Revelations, that when everything hits the fan people will only say, I wish I'd listened. There is no denying it, people are selfish, uncaring, willing to say what is "wrong" is "right", excuses are now made for actions that are wrong, if my opinion is different from yours, which happens to be the newest thing society has deemed acceptable, then I'm not open minded...huh? Well, all I know is that the bottom line is that people who see and hear but refuse to respond won't have anyone to blame but themselves. GOD help us all.......Death will have the final say and we all WILL meet our maker one day and there will be a price to pay. Sad....for many this is the only heaven they will ever know, but for those of us who know this is the only hell we will ever know and have to endure. I'm so thankful!!!
Totally agree with you Welsh Dragon! I couldn't have said it better.
Posted by T on May 2, 2007 10:39 AMJohnII, are you having some sort of breakdown?
Posted by Bango Skank on May 2, 2007 10:42 AMYe Gods! And Little Fishes! The Book of Revelations, yet!
Beam me up, Scotty! Now I KNOW there is no intelligent life on this planet!
Posted by Old Grouch on May 2, 2007 10:47 AMYears ago two ladies came to my door and asked me if I thought the country and the world were not just awful, in terms of culture and good/evil.
I asked them if they could name a time and place when humans had ever had it so good. So much human goodness and caring and trying to do better. I also asked when and where they, two women going door to door without a man to escort them, would have been attacked or told to stay home. Not in America or most of the western world today.
I was refering to Bibllical times and wanted them to think, not ask rote questions along the line of "woe is us we are so evil and doomed" What is to become of evil humanity?
Each year people become more civilized and try to solve human problems on a grander and grander scale. Does anyone really want to go back to any time in history when people were better? I don`t.
Cho was mentally ill, nothing more. He was a product of his genes, not society. When you shine the light of reason on society we see that most people are decent and good or we would not be able to live with each other as we do. Laws can`t prevent illegal activity, they only punish after the fact. People obey the laws out of respect for their neighbors. And out of their mutual need for each other.
Where people like Holly go wrong is to not really know the history of humanity. We are an evolving species who also evolve socially. New concepts come and we face them. Remember how odd the term marital rape sounded a few years ago? How little we cared about school bullys, now we do.
I am extreamly proud of humanity as a whole, as we constantly march forward in granting equal rights and care for each other.
"Humans are risen apes, not fallen angels."
I love that quote.
Poor John who wrote the book of Revelations, exiled on an island , he took out his hatered of Nero by writing all that stuff. His 666 was the sign of Nero, not the Devil.
But I guess when the clouds unzip and start shedding angels of doom, I will know better.
See you all, in the left behind group.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 2, 2007 11:03 AMYo Sharon: Long letters I speed read; yours I know is not cut and paste; I slow down: Me too, I love that quote.
Posted by Richard Grimes r22037@yahoo.com on May 2, 2007 11:42 AMI love your stuff too RG. You make me laugh a lot.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 2, 2007 11:54 AMFor those who do not think that school killings are not increasing:
Enoch Brown school massacre - Franklin County, Pennsylvania, United States; July 26, 1764
Poe Elementary School Attack - Houston, Texas, United States; September 15, 1959
University of Texas at Austin massacre - Austin, Texas, United States; August 1, 1966
Kent State shootings - Kent, Ohio, United States; May 4, 1970
Avivim school bus massacre - Avivim, Israel; May 8, 1970
Jackson State killings - Jackson, Mississippi, United States; May 14-15, 1970
Ma'alot massacre - Ma'alot, Israel; May 15, 1974
California State University, Fullerton Library Massacre - Fullerton, California, United States; July 12, 1976
Brenda Ann Spencer, Cleveland Elementary School - January 29, 1979
Parkway South Junior High School shooting - Saint Louis, Missouri, United States; January 20, 1983
Laurie Dann - Hubbards Woods Elementary School; Winnetka, Illinois, United States; May 20, 1988
Stockton massacre - Stockton, California, United States; January 17, 1989
École Polytechnique Massacre - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; December 6, 1989
University of Iowa shooting - Iowa City, Iowa, United States; November 1, 1991
Concordia University massacre -Montreal, Quebec, Canada; August 24, 1992
Simon's Rock College of Bard shooting - Great Barrington, Massachusetts, United States; December 14, 1992
Richland High School shooting - Lynnville, Tennessee, United States; November 15, 1995.
Frontier Junior High shooting - Moses Lake, Washington, United States; February 2, 1996
Dunblane massacre - Dunblane, Scotland, United Kingdom; March 13, 1996
Sanaa massacre - Sanaa, Yemen; March 30, 1997
Pearl High School shooting, Pearl, Mississippi, United States; October 1, 1997
Heath High School shooting, West Paducah, Kentucky, United States; December 1, 1997
Jonesboro massacre - Jonesboro, Arkansas, United States; March 24, 1998
Thurston High School shooting - Springfield, Oregon, United States; May 21, 1998
Columbine High School massacre - Littleton, Colorado, United States; April 20, 1999
W. R. Myers High School shooting - Taber, Alberta, Canada; April 28, 1999
Heritage High School shooting - Conyers, Georgia, United States; May 20, 1999
Santana High School - Santee, California, United States; March 5, 2001
Appalachian School of Law shooting - Grundy, Virginia, United States; January 16, 2002
Erfurt massacre - Erfurt, Germany; April 26, 2002
Monash University shooting - Melbourne, Australia; October 21, 2002
Rocori High School shootings - Cold Spring, Minnesota, United States; September 24, 2003
Southwood Middle School tragedy, Miami, Florida; February 3, 2004
Red Lake High School massacre - Red Lake, Minnesota, United States; March 21, 2005
Campbell County High School - Jacksboro, Tennessee: November 8, 2005
Dawson College shooting - Montreal, Quebec, Canada; September 13, 2006
Platte Canyon High School shooting - Bailey, Colorado, United States; September 27, 2006
Amish school shooting - Nickel Mines, Lancaster County, Pennsylvania, United States; October 2, 2006
Weston High School shooting, Cazenovia, Wisconsin September 29, 2006
Henry Foss High School - Tacoma, Washington, United States January 3, 2007
Mustansiriya University bombing, Baghdad, January 16, 2007 and February 26, 2007
Beirut Arab University shooting - Beirut, Lebanon; January 25, 2007
Virginia Tech massacre - Blacksburg, Virginia, United States; April 16, 2007
Nice one Sharon.
I hope you also pointed out to them that they have the vote, access to reproductive health information, and the ability to sign their own contracts and own their own property in modern times.
Hi Sharon,
Excellent presentation, as usual Sharon.
But, I'll bet - were I a betting man - that it wasn't either Holly or Jessica who came to your door.
Posted by Old Grouch on May 2, 2007 12:39 PMThank you Old Grouch, but you must not compliment my work, or JJ will call me a vulnerable female needing to be rescued by Knights, and JohnII will call me a liar. Shhh. Keep it down.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 2, 2007 12:58 PMJohnII may had overheated or had a seizure of some kind.
John II,
Which abortion procedures are not, in your opinion, awful?
When you can tell me which ones you do approve of, then we can talk about why you dissaprove of others.
Posted by Queen Gorgo (For Only Spartan Women Give Birth to Real Men!) on May 2, 2007 02:00 PMHey Queen Gorgo(For Only Spartan Women Give Birth To Real Men). Nice to see you again. Good question for JohnII, bet he will muddle the answer, if you get one at all. Imagine him controlling womens health care and reproductive llives?
Posted by Sharon B. on May 2, 2007 02:11 PMSharon B
I agree that Cho was mentally ill and that most humans are inherently good and follow laws out of respect for their neighbors and (may I add) the stability of our society and an innate sense of right and wrong.
I believe that our 24/7/365 cable news culture exposes people to the rare times when these awful incidents happen. Copycats? Maybe. Who knows?
I read an article the other day where a campus counselor matter-of-factly stated that a large number of students they are seeing are displaying an increasingly frightening pathology than was seen even a decade ago. Nobody has any answers as to why. Yet, as troubling as it is to hear that, most of those do not go on to murder their classmates before committing suicide.
Another factor may the increasing culture of drugging our kids, beginning in grade school. This ought to be investigated, as well.
Anyway, I thought it worth mentioning that I never thought I'd agree with one of your posts. A momentous day, for sure!!
Posted by on May 2, 2007 06:48 PMBack in college I was told that one person in 6,000 is a psychopath, roughly speaking that means more people, more ones to worry about.
I don`t think there is a drug that has been shown to cause or even contribute to psychosis, at least none that are currently used for depression, anxiety,etc.
Recently a group of kids with OCD were found to have lingering efects of a staph or streph infection, I can`t remember which.
A heavy cource of anti-biotics cured their seemingly mental problem. OCD can make a persons lilfe hell.
Thanks for posting.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 2, 2007 09:20 PM