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Fewer people I meet these days have any knowledge or recollection of the past bloody conflict in Northern Ireland between Catholics and Protestants, Irish and English, and the IRA terrorists’ bombing campaign in London.
It’s wonderful to see in the news that previously hateful antagonists are now amicably sharing power in the Northern Ireland Assembly.
The same can be said of past struggles against racial apartheid in South Africa, the fall of the Berlin Wall, the uniting of West and East Germany, and the end of tyrannical communism in Europe: past problems happily resolved.
So, if those seemingly intractable conundrums have been solved, isn’t it therefore not too much of a stretch to be optimistic about our present, remaining conflicts, such as in Iraq, the Middle East and Darfur, which, experience tells us, will be also be solved in time by our collective efforts?

Javid Djalili, Denver

READER COMMENTS

A consumation devoutly to be wished.

The Northern Ireland experience proves beyond a shadow of a doubt just how useless the "we don't negotiate with terrorists" rubric is. It proves that human conflicts can be resolved once you get beyond labeling and demonizing and machismo and start dealing with them in human terms.

Why on Earth would we want to start dealing with our problems on human terms? By actually being diplomatic, people would actually have to start using their intellect rather than something else...Of course, the current administration doesn't have much of the former, so maybe it's asking a lot right now?

When those who have a vested interest in conflict, e.g the military-industrial complex, are running things, diplomacy is at best an afterthought.

Great letters.

Or, maybe we should take a deeper look at this.

The Irish and the British were at war over Northern Ireland. The British claimed it as their territory, and the Irish said no way. It BECAME a battle of Catholics (the majority of Ireland) vs. Protestants (the official religion of the Church of England), but self rule and power sharing solved that conflict. So maybe not as relevant as terrorists trying to destroy all of Western culture.

Racial apartheid in South Africa was ended after 30 years of bloody conflict, including the desire of the White government to acquire nuclear technology.

The end of the cold war was do to 50 + years of COLD WAR, and finally the economic ability of the West to hold out and become economically dominant. As well as a continuing succession of dead Soviet premiers. From Nov. 1982 - March 1985 there were 4 Soviet Premiers. The instability of leadership, combined with the true charisma of Reagan, and his ability to "sell" to Gorbachev the willingness and ability to implement not only SDI, but the economic strength behind it, was a main contributer to ending the cold war.

All of these conflicts had to deal with the imminent threat or use of military power. All of these examples are specific to State Autonomy and governance. The difference is with terrorists (we could use the Israeli - Palestinian conflict that has been going on for more than 50 years as a better example), is that we are dealing with people that don't want a State, they want to END WESTERN CIVILIZATION.

There is a big difference. And unless we understand that difference, the ability to survive this, diminished greatly. As a society, as a culture, and as a people.

Well said, Dan. Diplomacy only works when both sides have something to gain and lose. A coalition of terrorist bent on defeating western civilization and creating a caliphate that streches from Indonesia to Spain is not a top candidate for diplomacy. After all they either gain their caliphate or 72 virgins.

I remember what Mau Tse Tung said in his war in China. His strategy was fight fight, talk talk, fight fight, until he won.

Which was a huge change from Chinese culture Jim. The Chinese had always been willing to concede enough to get by and avoid conflict, yet still save face, and rely on the vastness of territory, as well as the seclusion and rough geography. One of my favorite classes was Sino - Japanese History and the conflicts of these two similar cultures, especially as it related to Korea. Fascinating.

Javid: America's gratitude must go as follows: In 1986, the Christians seated Ronald Reagan who solved the immigration problem with the cure of amnesty and like "the worst of the worst," W. Bush vetoes stem-cell research, Reagan vetoes AIDS research and so forth. Your religious concern opens the door:

The Christian's god begins with a Jew cometh from the "loins of David" by his own admission and others and chronicled decades after his alleged death as transmogrified much like water is changed into wine: I.e. He goes from Jew form to Christian god form and slaughters 2000 pigs to cure epilepsy.

Such a transmogrification is as bizzare as the Mormon god, Adam aka Michael who eyeballs Eve in the nude from his celestial planet and makes a beeline to earth and mates with her after a celestial marriage and sires Jesus Christ. This reminds of David eyeballing Bathsheba in the nude and she conceives compelling David to kill her husband Uriah and god kills the baby to punish David.

W. Bush believes this transmogrification poo poo and is not about to have a dialogue with the enemies of his god who sends him to Iraq. PBS Ch. 6:

If our troops vacate Iraq today, the cost of the war will be two trillion dollars, at least. There is a thousand million in a billion; there is a thousand billion in a trillion. Amputees and others will receive disability for the next 75 years. Don't attack Iran, Mr. President.

W. Bush, it seems, will get his $billions more to kill and maim hundreds of Americans and thousands of Iraqies. Does America really owe gratitude to the Christians with their human sacrifice for bring W. Bush to the forefront?

"Bring 'em on," he says: Type in Bushisms in Ask.com and tell me W. Bush is not a (must keep this forum clean and absent of vulgarity).

America needs to impeach Bush and Cheney and let Pelosi ascend (sort of like the Virgin Mary~~~ Pelosi's Catholic faith convinces her of the ascension: More absurdity,) but like Chris Rock says: Nobody can do worse than the "retard" in office now.

Dan2, some might call the IRA freedom fighters, and in fact there's a very good case to be made for that characterization, but certainly the Brits for decades saw them as terrorists, and you can justify that point of view as well. Nonetheless, they went beyond rhetoric and posturing and worked out a diplomatic resolution to a long-standing conflict. With terrorists.

I wish we could separate reality from rhetoric when it comes to the Middle East and conflict with and within the Muslim world. I have to wonder what you're thinking when you use phrases like "terrorists trying to destroy all of Western culture." Do you really believe, even in your wildest nightmares, that the tiny handful of Islamic radicals who speak in such hyperbole have the means or even the will to summon the forces necessary to make that happen?

Do you know any Muslims personally, Dan2? I do, and they are no different from you or me in terms of what they want from life: a way to make a living, a way to raise a family and live in peace. They and we are just like the vast majority of the people on this planet.

Mr. Grimes,

For someone who is so anti-religion, you sure do bring up a lot of religious referrence.

Mr. Couch,

What am I thinking? Nothing. I am using the words that are a rallying cry for others to join the jihad.

It is the difference between how we view the conflict and how the terrorists view it. You and I may be able to have a civilized conversation about what our differences are. But if I hate you and everything that you stand for and believe in, you will not be able to rationalize with me, because my one and only goal would be to destroy you and your culture. Do you see the difference?

As with all the other conflicts that were mentioned in the original letter, the ability to demonstrate democracy and western culture will lead to change generations from now, as more and more people assimilate into that culture. That is what prevents radicalism in the US from really taking off. Assimilation into western culture. But without that exposure to western culture, we need to look at the continuing conflict between Muslim and Jew and Muslim and Christian as a philosophical war that has gone on for THOUSANDS of year.

There is no rational solution to irrational thought. This board demonstrates it in a very small way at times.

Yo Dan2: In the event you are interested in my free-read book: http://www.geocities.com/r22037/think.html

To know what the enemy is thinking, I even listen to his/her monologue on talk radio; if you really want to explode, listen to a Catholic Mass or watch one on TV. As a kid, I didn't question all these silly rituals and priests dressed in drag with their funny pointed hats and guess what: Christian non-Catholics agree with me on the conduct of Catholocism and everybody agrees with me on the conduct of Mormonism with its "glorified resurrected being" named Moroni (not an angel, but the son of Mormon brought back from the grave to function as a zombie). Thanks for reading my long letter; I try to keep them short. Sometimes I repeat myself; however, never know when a new reader comes on board.

Some additional factoids re: No.Ireland conflict and current terrorism.

The tactics of the Catholic side on the Irish 'Troubles' was steeped in martyrdom -- not the drama of suicide bombers, but the idea that through losing, you win (through death, eternal life, etc) This is consistent with the message of Catholicism/Christianity, though not overtly tied to it. More of a deeply ingrained trait in the character of the nation -- overwhelming odds, and chronic losses, no worry...we'll get there in the end. (think Bobby Sands' hunger strike in the Maze prison circa 1979)

Another interesting connection -- Gerry Conlan (sp?) wrote the book 'Sins of the Father' which was made into movie (early Daniel Day Lewis) about his experience getting pulled into the dragnet of a new anti-terrorism law in Britain. The book detailed the permissible methods (and their pitfalls) for extracting confessions via torture and isolating suspects from legal counsel. Conlan was admittedly a two-bit petty thief, but no connection to the IRA, but it took years for that to eventually out, and after many ruined lives and reputations, including that of the British gov't. At the time, the value of the book was the shock value, that a 'civilized' government such as England would condone torture, etc. and suspend basic rights. But nowadays, this book wouldn't sell at all...America has adopted the same tactics (likely much worse) and for the most part Americans are completely comfortable with it. Confessions-by-torture is just how we do business now.

I don't think we're very far apart here, Dan2. As I said, you deal with the reality, not the rhetoric. This is what happened in Northern Ireland, and in North Korea for that matter.

Let me ask my question in another way: is there anyone out there calling for the destruction of Western civilization who actually has the capability to pull that off? If so, we'd best get busy either negotiating with them, or setting up a "mutually assured destruction" stand-off scenario.

My contention is that there is no such person or group. For the ones who like to talk in such terms, to the extent that we have any need to deal with them at all, we should find out what they REALLY want. Find the reality behind the rhetoric. If they are all mad as March hares - if the bluster is all they're about - then they can easily be marginalized. But if the rhetoric is mere political posturing, as appears to be the case with Ahmadinejad, for example, then there may be a satisfactory way to deal with them.

The entire board, so far, is rooted in general intolerance, which is simply the deep seeded human trait that my actions are right and everyone else is wrong. The right/wrong trait is, in turn, rooted in the irrational fear of being wrong; so intolerance equals the fear of being wrong (which, of course, brings up a whole slew of other feelings).

Hence, wars, massacres, and general slaughter are based on this fear that my beliefs might be wrong. Until the human ego has the capacity to accept another's way of life as equally vaild, such things as Darfur, Iraq's internal strife, and general terrorism will continue to occur. Cynical? Maybe.

Mr. Couch,

The very real possibility of continued sophistication with suicide bombing terrorist organizations has a progressive pattern of acquiring new technology and methods to carry out a plan of destruction. Examples would be car bombs into pillars of the WTC to planes crashing into them and actually bringing them down. Subway and bus bombs in Europe. Control of States such as Syria and Lebanon. Dictators such as Saddam who indeed had WMD's. The proliferation of WMD's from the former Soviet Union

Look at the way our society has reacted to these groups. We have given up principle liberties, for supposed safety. We have become "afraid" to offend, for fear of retaliation. We responded to terrorism by sending troops over-seas and invading foreign States.

So, yes, I am very concerned that our Western ways are indeed threatened. I look at this current breed of terrorist in a similar way I historically look at Hitler. Hitler was intent on eliminating an entire race of people. There was no negotiating with Hitler. Just as there will be no workable negotiations with fringe radical groups. The negotiation needs to occur with Iran, with Syria, to convince them to put additional pressure on these terrorist organizations. To provide a glimpse of what the benefits of a democratic society, even one in the Middle East, would bring. But we will never be able to negotiate with terrorists. That is not a realistic option. To use the full force of the United States Military, and the key is to not be afraid to use it. As we did with the Soviets, if we demonstrate the will to win, and the power to win, that is when we do indeed win. But we desperately need to have the buy in of those nations that will be directly impacted in the Middle East.

Welsh Dragon hit the nail on the head. We will not be able to broker peace through negotiations with people that have such an irrational hatred as to have no tolerance for anyone different from themselves. We MUST understand that the experiment that is the United States is so drastically different from the homogenous societies of the rest of the world that not everyone gets along. That there are thousands of years of hatred and strife that continue today. We will not be able to "fix it," but we do need to be very aware of it, and have the will power and ability to address it, with force if necessary.

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