Illegal immigrants
I’m supposed to feel pity for this kid? Is he crying for any of the American kids out there who who have to pay the higher tuition? Is he
Rather than sitting in his room, surrounded by his gloomy paintings and whining that nobody’s going to pay for his education, here’s an idea for Rodriguez: go out and get one of those jobs “Americans won’t do” and pay your own way through college. Just like my kids who were born here of American citizen parents will be doing.
This letter has not been edited.
There will be no special bilingual programs in the schools.
No special ballots for elections.
All government business will be conducted in our language.
Foreigners will NOT have the right to vote no matter how long they are here.
Foreigners will NEVER be able to hold political office.
Foreigners will not be a burden to the taxpayers.
No welfare, no food stamps, no health care, or other government assistance programs.
Foreigners can invest in this country, but it must be an amount equal to 40,000 times the daily minimum wage.
If foreigners do come and want to buy land that will be okay.
BUT options will be restricted.
You are not allowed waterfront property. That is reserved for citizens naturally born into this country.
Foreigners may not protest; no demonstrations, no waving a foreign flag, no political organizing, no bad-mouthing our president or his policies.
If you do you will be sent home.
If you do come to this country illegally, you will be hunted down and sent straight to jail.
Harsh, you say? The above laws happen to be the immigration laws of " MEXICO " Posted by DoGooderDan
Prez. Reagan solved the immigration problem with amnesty; amnesty became the incentive for more to come; they come; they bring with them MDRTB (Peter Boyles this morning):
Medical Drug Resistant TB is rampant in Calif. brought by illegal immigrants mostly from Mexico and the Philippines. The 1984 Federal Law mandates no hospital shall turn away anyone within its borders.
It costs between $200,000 and 2$million to treat one afflicted with tuberculosis of the resistant strain. It is not the homeless, the incarcerated or those on drugs who are afflicted; it is the illegal immigrants who, as opposed to legal immigrants that must submit to a TB test and other medical, that are afflicted. Amnesty is extended to the illegal immigrant without the medical testing required of legal immigrants.
Bush, because of the rat in his pocket, says: "It is hard work; we can do it," and his audience of die-hards applaud even though they don't claim to be part of Bush's "we."
"Bring 'em on," says Bush, to the illegal immigrants and the trucks convey soon to invade America from Mexico called a "rolling torpedo" by a democrat.
"The worst of the worst:" That is Bush 2.
What a miserable SOB Schnell is, calling a kid "pathetic".
Contrary to his false insinuation, undocumented children aren't getting any "breaks" or advantages over any other college aspiring children.
Posted by anderson on May 31, 2007 02:31 PMGOOD anderson, GOOD! it needs to stay that way
Posted by Fresh on May 31, 2007 02:44 PM"...undocumented children aren't getting any "breaks" or advantages over any other college aspiring children." - anderson
Bullshit. Children of illegal aliens and illegal alien children are allowed a free public education in the USA courtesy of a USSC ruling. That costs roughly $10,000.00 per year in tax dollars to pay for. As they should not be here in the US to start with, they ARE getting something that US kids who are CITIZENS do not get - a free ride on the backs of tax paying Americans who never agreed to pay for the education of illegal aliens or their kids - we agreed to pay for a public education for US citizens and their legal children. So STFU about illegals not getting anything better or different. I am sick of hearing it.
Posted by Michael on May 31, 2007 02:50 PMIn the 1960's if a person wanted to work
in a restraunt,,or be around food. You were given a document ..you had to take it to the nearest County Health Department for an X-
Ray..wait for results then take results to the Employer. Is that safety health practice done now? Or, is it straight from the border to the kitchen..or fast food.? Someone need to investigate , if all employees illegal,legal and American Citizens get X-RAYED before handling our food.
As for Education for illegals wait till the Dream Act kicks in. J. M. Schell will really be outraged. I agree this isn't Fair for the American Citizen.
Some one needs to announce that..
Theres "NO VACANCY" "ALL FILLED UP"
Not that we're not a welcoming nation, but American is Filled to capacity.
The whole argument about not being able to get rid of illegals because there are too many of them and yada this and yada that????? Really???? Take a look at this:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0706/p09s01-coop.html
Posted by Michael on May 31, 2007 02:56 PMMichael, I was talking about college (what Schnell made his false insinations about)--not K-12 education. Besides your claim that undocumented immigrants somehow don't pay taxes is, to use your term, "bullshit".
Posted by anderson on May 31, 2007 03:02 PMJust a bunch of "oh poor me...I can't get a free education" in the newspapers....BOOOOWHOOOO....can't get an education so I can do the jobs Americans won't do.
I am sick to death of you, Anderson, why don't you move to Mexico and help them fix their country instead of chastizing your fellow Americans for wanting to enjoy our country and the things we've fought for? I don't understand your mindset....I am giving up trying to be quiet when you start your BS about the poor mexicans.
AMERICA.....love it or leave it.
the difference is , they use up much more in social GIFTS ( i.e. education, health care etc etc ) then they could ever possibly pay in sales taxes
quit being a numbskull anderson
Posted by Fresh on May 31, 2007 03:05 PMThis is MY America, J. If you dont' like my calling bullshit where I see it, move. Maybe you can find a colony where they'd rather shoot each other than reason about anything.
Posted by anderson on May 31, 2007 03:08 PMthe next time my kid needs to go to the hospital can i send you the bill anderson?
hell why should I have to pay for it when there are gullible dimwits like you around to pay for my bills.
Posted by Fresh on May 31, 2007 03:13 PMI've tried to be reasonable with you and your opinions, Anderson, but you will not give one inch and when someone tries to disagree with you, you start spewing insults.
Can you not see that the millions (yes, Anderson,it is MILLIONS) of Mexicans entering our country illegally will soon cause a breakdown in our economy? Can't you at least admit that this influx of illegal immigrants is going to compromise our whole system? And as far as your argument that they are only coming here to make a better life for themselves....then why are they sending BILLIONS of US dollars TO Mexico? And truely, why should we offer their children classes in Spanish??? We don't offer classes in any other foreign language, so why Spanish??? You say we are picking on the poor Mexicans, BULLSHIT, they are taking advantage of us. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me a millions times.....who's the FOOL? Fool.
J.
"Can you not see that the millions (yes, Anderson,it is MILLIONS) of Mexicans entering our country illegally will soon cause a breakdown in our economy?"
Actually J, if all the illegal immigrants left today it would devastate our economy, at least in the short term. Our current economy depends on the cheap labor illegal immigrants provide.
Draconian fines for those who hire illegals is the only solution.
I've used the analogy before that busting the illegal immigrants and not their employers is like tossing petty drug users in jail and letting the dealers bounce. The dealers will just get more people hooked/the employers will just entice more illegal immigration.
What I find hilarious about the whole mess is that Republicans are just now starting to realize that Bush couldn't care less about their favored issues like immigration. He just knows his big-business buddies love them some cheap, exploitable labor and he would never let down the "base".
Posted by Charles B on May 31, 2007 03:55 PMHell must have frozen over,
I agree with a posting by Charles B.
Posted by skeptical on May 31, 2007 04:06 PMwho wants to be that NOTHING will be done to the employers ?
Posted by Fresh on May 31, 2007 04:09 PManderson
What do you think about the 82% of the people in the N.Y. Times poll that said they're in favor of tighening border security?
One legitimate question I've had to ask four times now.
Posted by RickyLee on May 31, 2007 04:11 PMThere's always one in the crowd (Charles B) who can link every problem facing the USA today with Bush.
According to Charles we never had an illegal alien problem until January 2001 and if Bush would have fixed it then we wouldn't have the problems we have today.
Just curious CB, since you claim the reason for Bush's inaction was his buddies all need the cheap labor, what's your rationale for why Clinton never did anything about it?
Posted by KW on May 31, 2007 04:55 PMThere's always one in the crowd (KW) who sans evidence can construct elaborate histories for people such as: "According to Charles we never had an illegal alien problem until January 2001 and if Bush would have fixed it then we wouldn't have the problems we have today."
Tell me where I ever said or implied any such thing KW....
(crickets)
Now tell me why it is you have an irrational compulsion to come to the aid of your Bush-daddy any time a word is said criticizing him. Believe me, I was highly critical of your favorite whipping boy Bill Clinton when he deserved it.
So what have you ever said critical of Bush KW?...
(crickets)
Now tell me why I just wasted my valuable time responding to a fact-free 28%'er like you.
Posted by Charles B on May 31, 2007 05:48 PMChas B. is absolutely correct--its all about big business and the bottom line. And, who controls most big business in this country? That's right--they tend to be Republicans.
Some here are so deluded that they can't quite make that connection. Sad really...
J--what is your BP? 175/150? You should really take those meds every day... Best watch yourself or the Hall Monitor will be after you.
Posted by Me on May 31, 2007 06:08 PMOK, Charles.
I personally worked with a woman who married an illegal immigrant, this is not speculation, they both willingly admitted it. He got a job at the University Hospital where a LEGAL relative is in charge of the hiring in that department, he used another relative's LEGAL work permit to get through the screening process. When they married, he used the same document to get permission from the Mexican Consulate. Technically she is married to the other guy but that's another issue.
So, how would this illegal be found out? He has successfully learned how to play the system and the employer (supposedly) has no idea.
This is happening all over this country, don't even try to argue that with your "just the facts, ma'am" retoric. NOW what is your solution????? Anderson? Got an opinion?
Me,
So sweet of you to worry about my health but I have no insurance and fear going to the hospital or doctor since I can't afford to pay even on a sliding scale, so I guess I'll have to change my name to Sanchez and pretend I don't speak English. Maybe then I can get a better paying job that Americans won't do AND free medical care.
Of course I'm upset about this issue, aren't you?????
J,
You ask regarding the friend of your acquaintance who is here illegally and employing an elaborate subterfuge which you described in detail:
"So, how would this illegal be found out?"
The answer is obvious! When good citizens like you turn them in of course! Why didn't you -J-?
Any truthful introspection on this question will enlighten you as to the complexities of the human aspect of this issue.
In the case you described, perhaps an anonymous tip to the Hospital that one of their employees had bogus documents and their hiring director knowingly employed him would have done the trick. It's interesting to note In the case you described, that the illegal immigrant depended at each crucial point on a legal resident to provide him the means by which to gain a foothold in this country.
Go after them -J-! Turn them in! You're the one with the info!
Posted by Charles B on May 31, 2007 06:36 PMSweetness has nothing to do with it, my friend. I can tell that you are a very angry person, but none the less, you are still a person. It is called compassion, concern, what-have-you. Ever heard of those things?
Keep it up and you'll be getting to know lots of doctors whether you want to or not. The anger will eat you up.
Oh--and please try not to post the same thing all over the place. It gets pretty old...
Posted by Me on May 31, 2007 06:39 PMAnderson,
"Besides your claim that undocumented immigrants somehow don't pay taxes is, to use your term, "bullshit". "
Illegals do pay taxes in the form of a consumption (sales) tax, that is true. But the IRS reported that 1.9 million illegals filled out I-9's and paid income taxes like every other citizen in 2006. Good for them! But if there are 12-20 million illegals in the country (a low estimate), and only 1.9 paid income taxes, only about 10%-15% pay income taxes to federal and states.
Unless, of course, the majority of illegals in the US are not working but, instead, living off the state. Who knows! The government can't even find the 600,000 illegals who are wanted for crimes.
I agree with Charles B on the "Dracronian fines". But I believe it should be taken one step further and imprison managers and CEO's of the companies caught employing illegals.
Of course the only way that would hold up in court is to have the national employer ID verification system in place,
So, seal the borders the best we can, mandate the employer verification system, and incarcerate the top brass of companies breaking the law.
Labas, I don't know where you got your info, but a lot of sources I've read say taxes are paid, sales, income, property. Bell says undocumenteds pay 70-86% of their services, and they clearly show their methodology here: http://www.thebell.org/issues/img/briefs.php
Moreover, this is consistent with all credible information I've read before their report.
This was even published in the RMN. I wonder how Fresh managed to overlook it?
But, you know, you have to want to be honest about these things. IF you want to find fault with immigrants, and truth or accuracy is not a priority, or even on the table (DCN, Dobbs), then you can make any outrageous claim you want. And accordingly we see the idiotic claims (including on this thread) that "they" don't pay taxes or, "they're" getting a free ride".
If you get you information only from radio or television, then you get what you're asking for. If, on the other hand, you are really interested in the truth, and not something to bolster foregone conclusions, then reasonable information (not black and white) can be found.
I wonder what this country is coming to, now that "the truth" for many people seems to consist of whomever can tell the biggest lies the most often. I mean, if the invasion of Iraq wasn't a lesson, I don't know what is--because the same style of misinformation is being spread through some of the same channels about immigration.
anderson
What do you think about the 82% of the people in the N.Y. Times poll that said they're in favor of tighening border security?
A legitimate question I've had to ask lots of times now.
Obviously you're afraid to answer it.
Posted by on May 31, 2007 07:33 PMThe bottom line is if you show your compassion by digging into my valet without my consent, than you gonna get your hand slapped.
Posted by Uno on May 31, 2007 07:52 PMA little homo-erotic freudian slip there, huh Uno?
Posted by Me on May 31, 2007 08:23 PMAnderson,
The 1.9 million illegals applying for I-9's and filing income tax returns was directly from the IRS and reported in newspaper articles by the Rocky Mountain News, Denver Post and the Associated Press.
Posted by Labas on May 31, 2007 08:58 PMAnderson
Exactly what misinformation are you referring to? That you have no idea how many illegals there are? That the border security measures are only promises? That the Z Visas will be issued immediately and grant the illegals all rights except maybe voting?
That if the border security measures are not met it will not change the status of the illegals, they get to keep their z Visas? Which one don't I fully understand?
labas, you may have found that info from a good source, but then you lept to a conclusion that I presume wasn't reported in the press. And in turn I offered a source that has addressed your specific point of inquiry. Btw, most undocumented males do work--it's a greater pct than natives. I don't remember the percentage of women--probably less. Of course, children, who are counted in the total number of undocumenteds don't work, so your presentation or illustration of "10-15%" is a little misleading.
jgd, why ask me, if you already have the answers?
Posted by anderson on May 31, 2007 09:12 PMAnderson,
If these are in fact true statements then how can any person still feel this is a fair bill for all people involved? It is great for the illegals but seriously short changes the citizens of the this country. There was a bill passed last year that called for border security. What did we gain from this compromise?
I am seriously trying to understand how anyone can feel this is a bill that is fair for both parties. For the life of me I can't! The illegals get almost everything they want and they get them immediately (Z Visa) however all citizens of the this country get are promises of things to come.
Posted by jgd777j on May 31, 2007 09:26 PManderson,
Since there is no definitive number of illegals in America (estimates range from 10 million to 30 million) the 10-15% is a guess. But the 1.9 million paying taxes is fact. So if 2 million out of 12 million pay INCOME taxes, that is 17%.
Income taxes - not property, state and local sales taxes.
You Bell.org website states that much of it's numbers are estimates, they don't have a definitive number either.
But they do estimate that undocumented households pay on average $1861 in sales, property and income taxes if they work on the books, and $1350 if they work under the table.
According to the CATO Institute http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-015.html the average American pays 40% of his wages to all taxes.
If illegals, according to Bell.Org, follow suit, the average illegal immigrant family must make $5000 a year. Of course since neither pro-illegal or anti-illegal has provable figures on the subject, it's all just guesswork.
Posted by Labas on May 31, 2007 09:31 PMI wonder if there's room at Gitmo.
Posted by Jimminy on May 31, 2007 09:42 PMAnderson,
Funny to me (and I'm sure to many others on these boards) that you seem to self appoint yourself regarding the legitimacy of any published information regarding illegal immigration.
You are so quick to criticize Lou Dobbs, Peter Boyles and anybody else who passionately defends the take over of our nation. Who are you.......... to critique their knowledge or opinions. They appear to knows every bit as much as you do about the issue.
I have quoted statistics from other sources like the recent report from Robert Recotor at The Heritage Foundation. All negative as to the contribution of these illegals. Of course we know the The Bell Org. is the ONLY legitimate opinion on this issue right Anderson. They have no dog in this fight, right? They have no bias here just like the above mentioned.
Do you honestly believe us all to be this gullible. REALLY!!!
Oh right, this is when you attack me as a xenophobic racist.
Posted by Sam on May 31, 2007 10:34 PMSam,
He did give me credit for reading the RMN and DP, but it will be interesting to see hte respnse to thebell.org website either claiming illegals don't pull their own weight, or that a family of 3,4 or 6 can live off $5000 a year - prime candidates for governmental public assistance.
Posted by Labas on May 31, 2007 10:50 PMGosh darn Anderson,
Can you find a way to unspin the fact that nearly all the posters to this thread think you're a flaming prick, prone to personal attacks, weak logic and unsubstantiated claims?
I'll admit to being racist when you admit to hating America, asshole.
Posted by raoul on May 31, 2007 11:02 PM-J-
There's alot of corruption by illegals..from within the system. Like what you said about
the couple at University. Legals (maybe)
do alot of crooked stuff to get friends and family in positions. Also identity thieft.
In California prison I heard that the inmates get a list of items they can get, like canned goods,etc. Legal &illegal aliens send in cans of "DRUGS". Sealed cans from the factory. Where they all work, Can you imagine how much corruption there is just so they can profit from America and the american citizen?
By the way ignore Anderson. Skip over.
ya just ignore anderson the same way anderson ignores facts and the will of the american people
Posted by on June 1, 2007 07:00 AMYou guys all crack me up! Quoting media sources as credible! SHEEP! BAaaaaaa
Posted by tmr on June 1, 2007 07:15 AMHey 07:15 AM,
There are lots of kinds of media. Perhaps you are only familiar with one.
The only sheep around here is the one you woke up next to this morning.
Posted by truthy on June 1, 2007 07:22 AMLabas, this started when someone (Michael, I think) made the blatently false statement that "they" don't pay taxes. Then (probably only because I said something about it) someone admitted, yeah, they pay sales taxes, while insinuating that income and property taxes are not paid. I provide a source (Bell) that provides a rational discussion of the matter, that debunks those falsehoods. You know that I've read other sources too because we've talked about them here. Now, you extrapolate from one piece of information to conclude "they're not pulling their weight". Extrapolation's fine, if that's all you have, but you seem to purposely ignore the rest of the findings of Bell and what they say about taxes.
Sam, I've studied the matter. And I'll stand on what I've found, including the link I cited above. If you don't trust what I say, presumably because it's not the answer you want to hear, so be it. Dobbs and Boyles have no credibility on this issue whatsoever. If you think so, you're a fool.
Posted by anderson on June 1, 2007 08:50 AMCharles B - We have a topic of illegal aliens and your entire last paragraph is devoted to bashing Bush's inaction on the topic. You'll drag Bush into ANY subject regardless the absurdity.
I did notice you completely avoided answering my question so I'll try one more time.
"Just curious CB, since you claim the reason for Bush's inaction was his buddies all need the cheap labor, what's your rationale for why Clinton never did anything about it?"
Actually, I already know the real answer, just curious what kind of excuse you'll come up with.
Posted by KW on June 1, 2007 09:30 AMDobbs and Boyles have as much credibility as you do on the issue. Prove they don't.
Posted by truthy on June 1, 2007 09:33 AMCharles,
I DID try to turn them in and guess what? I didn't know the alias he was using and the person I talked to at ICE said that was crucial, but he would give a "heads-up" to the HR people @ Univ. Hosp......now THAT is a solution, let the fox know YOU know he's in the hen house.........
As for the anon. individual who accuses me of not having compassion, concern, what-have-you.....I have all those things for people who love and respect their "home country" and the laws we all must abide by. I have recieved commendations for exhibitibg those very same qualities to the people I work with and for.
Angry? HELL YES !!!! My Dad, brothers-in-law, both grandfathers, nephews and numerous aquaintances have fought through the years for our freedoms and the sanctity of our nation. To see first hand foriegn individuals disrespecting our laws and way of life is very upsetting to me. Those of you who live in your ivory neighborhoods haven't had to deal with this.....yet. WAKE UP, if we don't fight this now, our nation will falter.
9:33 was addressed to Anderson. Prove they don't!
Posted by truthy on June 1, 2007 09:37 AMSchell, you're a fool. Dionysius once stated, "Let your speech be wiser that your silence, or be silent."
Posted by 593Boat on June 1, 2007 10:23 AM593Boat,
I believe 'twas Suburbus Middleclassus who said, "Shut the f*** up you stupid liberal moron."
Ahh, isn't it refreshing to be steeped in great literature.
Posted by truthy on June 1, 2007 10:57 AMAnderson wants to tell us all that our sources of info are suspect, yet he cites info from The Bell Policy Center. That is a "Progressive Think Tank." It goes out of its' way to tell us it is non-partisan. Yeah, right.
He discredits our sources and expects us to just accept the opinions and facts from his sources as more honest, even when the purpose of Bell, like most think tanks, is advocacy for public policy. I wonder what their progressive policy stance might be on illegal immigration?
Posted by RU Serious on June 1, 2007 11:14 AM
The guy is an ass, plain and simple. He won't answer any questions that would discredit him. What a coward.
Posted by truthy on June 1, 2007 11:19 AMIf you want to know their stance, you can find it at the link I posed.
As for the credibility of different sources, it's up to you to decide. I can only give you my opinion and offer (as here) a link to their work. I'll tell you this though: you can usually tell you're being sold a bill of goods when (1) only one point of view is presented (p.s. setting up strawmen isn't presenting another view); or (2) the information you get is filled with rhetorical arguments. These are hallmarks of infomercials (why don't you rush out to buy their products?) and most talk radio (so why are they more credible than an infomercial? Because they go negative?)
Posted by anderson on June 1, 2007 11:27 AMtruthy, you're a first class troll. How old are you, 13? Do you have any useful function in life, other than cutting down people on these threads? Do you have anything to contribute besides name-calling and opposition? Do you think the RMN set up these pages in order that YOU would have a forum where (in your own words) you find fun in pissing off people?
Posted by anderson on June 1, 2007 11:40 AMDont worry the american people are such sheep that we will continue to be rules by those we put in office!
we are ALL too dumb to think and change anything.
get used to it sheep
Posted by Fresh on June 1, 2007 11:58 AMKW,
"Just curious CB, since you claim the reason for Bush's inaction was his buddies all need the cheap labor, what's your rationale for why Clinton never did anything about it?"
Clinton didn't do anything about enforcement, which was his dictate. He's not much different than Bush on the issue. He's a SELL-OUT to corporate interests. So was Reagan, who implemented the policies under which Clinton operated.
There. No excuses. Clinton shares the blame.
But I'm pretty sure you're just a hopeless 28%'er Authoritarian Bush Cultist and would never find fault in Dear Leader just as he never finds fault in himself.
Let's settle it- answer my question:
What have you ever said critical of Bush?......
(crickets)
Actually CB, Reagan is the one who tried to toughen policies and hit employers with huge fines for hiring illegals. His policies included increasing document verification requirements (the I-9 form) but congress failed to enforce the new legislation after he left office.
I had hoped when the reps took congress back in 1994 they would begin reenforcing those immigration laws but as we all know nothing happened.
Clinton wasn't "operating under" the Reagan policies, he was subverting them by not requiring either party to address the lack of enforcement.
Many thought when Bush took office in 2000 he would take the steps necessary but his stance has been in favor of compromise rather than enforcement of current laws. I've openly criticized him for that here as well. In addition he has made some major mistakes in Iraq. Ousting Saddam was a wise move but not having a plan for what to do immediately afterwards has proven disasterous.
And CB, your constant quoting of polls that you adore is going to bite you in the a** pretty soon. Have you seen the approval ratings of congress since the dems took over? Ouch!
Posted by KW on June 1, 2007 02:05 PManderson writes:
"I can only give you my opinion ....."
Then lets hear it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What do you think about the 82% of the respondents to a N.Y. Times poll that say they want tighter security at our borders?
Come on, anderson, you said you can only give your opinion, and I'd like to hear your opinion on the question you've been runnung from for days now.
Wicky Wee, you and twoothy remind me a lot of 3 year olds who cry and stamp their feet when they don't get their way. "Answer the question! Waaah!!" Except you must be older than that because you know adult words.
In case you haven't figured it out, you've severed all cords of civil discourse with me. This means you've asked to be, and will be, ignored. Take your childish obsession elsewhere, punk.
Posted by anderson on June 1, 2007 05:41 PMKW,
The following sentence illustrates how little you know about how government works:
"but congress failed to enforce the new legislation after he left office."
and this one:
"Clinton wasn't "operating under" the Reagan policies, he was subverting them by not requiring either party to address the lack of enforcement."
And then you pull this out of a valve at your lower abdomen:
"And CB, your constant quoting of polls that you adore is going to bite you in the a** pretty soon. Have you seen the approval ratings of congress since the dems took over? Ouch!"
First, I can't remember the last time I quoted a poll. Care to give me an example? Second...
I'm not a Democrat.
Posted by Charles B on June 1, 2007 05:51 PMwhat that means ricky lee is that Anderson is incapable of facing the truth and actually answer your question.
in other words he/she is a hack who has no real ajenda but to bait others into his / her BS
Posted by Fresh on June 1, 2007 05:52 PManderson,
This thread has turned from a discussion to a free-for-all. But I did look at thebell.org discussion of illegals in Colorado and that is where I got their quote that the average illegal family pays $1861 a year in taxes. Now you have to admit that is an incredibly low amount of taxes paid for a FAMILY.
We have shared some info sites together and I appreciate that. But you've read some of mine as well and even stated that they were credible; yet you still chose to disavow their findings.
And because thebell.org states plainly they are using, not facts, but best estimates, I find the credibility of the IRS claims that 1.9 million illegals filing income taxes is more substantiated.
I suppose the other 10 million illegals not filing I-9's could be using false identification and Social Security numbers to pay income taxes; but that would be kindling for an entirely separate debate.
So, yes, since neither your liberal websites nor my conservative websites have any proven empirical data (no one can since we don't even know how many illegals are here), all attempts at getting to the truth are still based on conjecture.
Another example, in a discussion we had on a different thread, I brought up the Center for Immigration Studies in DC and you did say that you found them credible. They just announced their new projected cost of legalizing illegals at a cost to taxpayers of $19,000 per year per family. But I'm sure there's is an equal study from a progressive organization that shows those illegals to be a positive.
Go figure!
Posted by Labas on June 1, 2007 06:15 PMlabas, if CIS says what you said it says, please link to it.
No, this isn't about liberals v conservatives. Scientists don't think that way. Moreover, the fact that you can't pinpoint with absolute accuracy some number doens't mean any estimate is invalid. Nor does it mean, as you seem to assert, that all estimates are equal. You say we don't know the number of documented persons, but, yes, we can reasonable estimate. That's what professional demographers do.
Posted by anderson on June 1, 2007 06:49 PMRickyLee: "What do you think about the 82% of respondents to a N.Y. Times poll that say they want tighter border security?"
I don't know any of them personally but I'm sure they are nice people. As for their position on more border security, I think most everybody favors that. So, what's your point, if any?
Posted by Truth on June 1, 2007 07:58 PManderson,
The CIS website only has the 2002 data of a net fiscal drain of $8000 per year per low educated immigrant family. The $19,000 was reported in an TV interview with a rep of CIS. However the reported $8000 fiscal drain is designated as a federal deficit only and doesn't estimate schooling, emergency rooms, child welfare costs at the state and local levels.
Mark Kirkorian, executive director of CIS, in a editorial for the National Review 6/1/07: "In fact, here it is, in a perverse sense, actually better that immigrants be illegal, because they cost less. Households headed by illegal aliens represent a drain of some $10 billion a year at the federal level alone — i.e., they consume $10 billion more in federal government services than they pay in federal taxes. This is because they work, they’re poor, and they have lots of children, and our welfare system is specifically designed to help the working poor with children. But if the illegals were legalized, the costs to federal taxpayers would balloon, nearly tripling to $29 billion each year. This is because when you amnesty an uneducated illegal alien with a large family, all you do is turn him into an uneducated legal alien with a large family — his earnings, and thus his tax payments, do indeed go up somewhat, but his use of government services increases much, much more because now he’s legal, but he’s still uneducated." http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=YTAxZWM2OGZmNDIxN2FlZWI4ZmNmYjdlNjI1MDY1Yzk
Of course that goes back to the findings of the US House Ways and Means Committee in 2006 - http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmode=printfriendly&id=5174
I'll keep monitoring the CIS website for updates.
anderson,
"You say we don't know the number of documented persons, but, yes, we can reasonable estimate. That's what professional demographers do."
Even the GAO in 1982 stated:
"GAO's review of the available information on illegal aliens, however, indicated that they constitute a highly diverse population whose behavior and composition are unknown and in flux. Therefore, the size of the illegal alien population cannot be accurately estimated at this time." http://archive.gao.gov/f0102/119505.pdf
That was in 1982. In 1986 the Reagan amnesty bill was estimated to grant 1 million illegals amnesty. Final actual numbers exceeded 3 million. Not a very good estimate.
anderson,
Sorry, forgot to post the 2002 CIS cost analysis link on that first post. It is:
http://cis.org/topics/costs.html
And here is an exerpt from a Washington Post article from May 20, 2007 :
"In the 1986 amnesty, close to 3 million illegal immigrants, mostly from Mexico and Central America, were allowed to become permanent residents if they could prove they had lived in the United States for at least four years. In 1994, a second amnesty allowed another half-million to remain in the country by paying a large one-time fine. In 1997, another law granted amnesty to about 1 million Central Americans.
According to the Center for Immigration Studies, a group that has often been critical of liberal immigration policies, the 1986 amnesty carried a hefty price tag. That included more than $100 billion in social assistance programs and services over 10 years, $8 billion in public costs for illegal immigrant children and job displacement of an average of more than 187,000 U.S. citizens and legal immigrants each year."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/29/AR2007052901935.html?hpid=artslot
Solution: 1. Bush's assassination of Saddam is complete: Mission accomplished; declare victory and get out. 2. Assign the troops to the border(s); don't create anymore immigration laws; let them stay without amnesty and repeal the 1984 law granting free medical; deport the criminals (those already incarcerated); deny those staying American citizen rights just as Mexico denies Americans Mexican rights. Enforce the border.
You can be a Risen Christ; I won't object; I'll be a Risen Ape; you don't object. You can believe in nonsense on stilts; I can believe in Mother Nature. America will need her troops to protect against natural catastrophe. Thank you Mother for your attack on Mother Cabrini Shrine.
Posted by Richard Grimes Risen Ape: Deicide: r22037@yahoo on June 2, 2007 10:31 AMThank you , truth, for intelligently responding to my question. anderson seems quite incapable of any intelligence, and proves that on a daily basis.
What's my point?
My point is:
that I've been called, on these RMN blogs,
racist, uncompassionate, xenophobic, and other inaccurate labels, for advocating tighter border security, by the cretin known as anderson.
I'd like to know if s/he thinks the same about the 82% of the respondents in the N.Y. Times poll who are in favor of tightening up
our porous borders. (from Alaska to Brownsville)
Pretty simple, right?
Not simple enough for anderson, who is obviously VERY simple, as proven by the 5:41(Jun 1) post.
Labas, thanks for all the links. I'm getting a little overwhelmed by all the information and what it implies in terms of having a discussion. I mean, if I make 10 different assertions, and you do the same, then it's kind of hard to get on the same page.
A specific concern: you cite $19,000 cost per family (allegedly from CIS), then quote CIS's director as saying there is a 10 billion net cost to the U.S. from illegal immigration. How do you square these two figures? Cause they don't add up. It's curious to me, also, that the frothing at the mouth anti-Mexican brigade have come on these pages and cited the very same number ($19,000) but asserted this is a "per person" cost.
Funny (or should I say, thankfully), Kirkvorkian
acknowledges that the cost (whatever may be) is not a result of status but of age and socioeconomic factors. That's the same idea expressed by Bell and NRC. The one big cost of immigration (K-12 education), is primarily because we're talking about a younger group. But no one would think of accusing generation Xers (or whoever is of baby producing age these days) of breaking our budget. Because we value children (some children anyway).
Do you agree that reasonable estimates can arrive at different results? I hope you do. On the other hand, does purposeful misinformation (on this or any other issue) cause you any concern?
Posted by anderson on June 2, 2007 12:09 PManderson,
yes I believe "reasonable estimates can arrive at different results" A glass half full or half empty would be a good example.
And yes, purposeful misinformation or holding back factual information bothers me. I believe our government and the mainstream media does this quite often. And we're left trying to piecemeal all the parts together from opposite ends of the spectrum in an attempt to complete the story on middle ground.
The CIS director did point out the $10 billion net drain ($29 billion if legalized), but also qualified that deficit to be at the federal level alone. If he added the deficit felt at the state and local levels - where the financial burden is the highest - then a new number would have arisen. Maybe even $19,000/year per family. I haven't heard anyone claim it is a per person deficit.
But you say the numbers don't add up. But how would we know. Is the cost per family for a family of 4, family of 8? Who knows? Again, only guesstimations.
Posted by Labas on June 2, 2007 09:20 PM"Actually J, if all the illegal immigrants left today it would devastate our economy,"
Yeah right, devastate. Ilegal aliens make up around 4.3 percent of the American workforce. Unemployment hovers consistently above that.
Posted by Ben on June 3, 2007 08:04 AMCOWARD anderson.
Answer my question.
Posted by RickyLee on June 3, 2007 02:44 PMThe furtive Anderson says "We are laughing at you" because I attach Peter Boyles sentiment.
Anderson and the rat in his pocket or a tapeworm elsewhere says "We." Therefore, he and his two friends are laughing; however, it is no laughing matter, to wit:
June 3, Denver Post staff writer affirms Boyles says: More than half of Colorado's drug resistant TB cases occurred in people who were born in countries where the disease was not well-controlled: Vietnam, the Philippines, Mexico and Sudan.
The much castigated Anderson continues to distort taking the opposite ground from all the commenter on the subject matter: Illegal Immigration.
Cribbing a word from Sharon and Shaupeen: "Don't 'piss' on my neck and tell its raining,” which is a favorite pastime for Anderson.
While on the other side of the world, an Islamic group does what was dogma in the Mormon Church: Throats are cut from vein to vein by the swords of truth beheading female TV broadcasters, which is what Mitt Romney's Joe (Mormonism) Smith did and said that without him there was no salvation affirmed by Brigham Young. However, bending with the wind Mitt’s god is now the transmogrified Jew from the “loins of David,” or "Joseph the carpenter," or Angel Gabriel compulsion, or rape by the Holy Ghost, take your pick. See Ignorant Missionary: http://www.geocities.com/r22037/think.html