Illegals canard
The contention that illegal immigrants fill jobs that Americans won’t do is simply not true.
If there were no illegal immigrants to fill the less desirable jobs, employers would have no choice but to offer more money until those same jobs became more appealing. That’s the law of supply and demand.
Naturally, the cost of goods and services would increase as a result, but, then again, the same thing happens every time the minimum wage is increased. Besides, instead of paying more for goods and services, Americans are right now paying more for health care, infrastructure and social services.
Michael D. Smith, Lakewood
OK, Anderson (a.k.a. Mr. Griego), try and tell us why Michael D. Smith is wrong.
Posted by QBT on May 8, 2007 01:08 AMMr. Smith has it right on the head - not to mention that the illegals tend to send as much money home (whether home is Mexico, elsewhere is Central or South America - that area accounts for over 85% of illegals - or anywhere else in the world), further impacting our trade deficit. I will vote for the candidate who is willing to penalize businesses which either hire illegals or offshore US jobs, putting greed over the welfare of the country as a whole. The middle class now belongs on the endangered species list.
Posted by Mary on May 8, 2007 04:24 AMFinally someone has figured this out! Jobs Americans won't do is simply not true. Jobs Americans won’t do at the pay they want to offer is.
It's time we take back America from the greedy corporate bottom liners and demand that the illegal immigrants are asked to go home.
I for one am tired of paying for their schooling, medical and lowering of the wage scales.
but wait a second these illegals are just trying to better their lives. all though it is at the cost of our economy, jobs, and quality of life. they are truely making America more like the third world rat hole they come from. our streets are their trash can, as more trash = more jobs for them.
Posted by on May 8, 2007 05:49 AMthe illegals are trying to bring our standard of life down to their level. I don't want the United States to look like Mexico, but it is on the way of becoming a third world country just like South of the Border. It is a ridiculous and untrue statement that we Americans won't do the jobs - we just won't do them for crap wages. Prices haven't gone down just because the illegals are doing the jobs. Corporate Fat Cats are making more money. Plain and simple.
Posted by mi on May 8, 2007 06:17 AMGreat comments everyone. All very TRUE.
Now lets see which party will give a damn about us working class that have always done "those Jobs"
Amen to all, I am also tired of my tax dollars paying for the birth of anchor babies, their education, and the housing they receive. Idenities stolen by them so they can receive benefits at the expense of all Americans. My husband does a job that supposedly Americans don't want to do, and it he is tired of the illegal aliens cutting his bids in half and doing a realy crappy job. The crappy jobs make everyone in that profession look bad. Secure the borders and send them packing, stand up Americans and fight back for our country. It is time that we tell this government that we will longer accept all these so called elected officials that it is ok to live in the back pocket of big businesses. You read in the business section how profits for this company is up and so on, its because they have fired the hard working Americans to bring in cheap labor, so that the CEO's can get an extra million on a bonus, because Lord knows they can't live on 500,000.00 a year. American dreams are going up in smoke by us the hardworking Americans allowing this to continue. Stand up! I am sure that once Anderson reads this letter, well he will have plenty to say I am sure.
Posted by P on May 8, 2007 06:55 AMIf you hear a candidate say, Illegals can't qualify for benefits,someone smack him or her and bring them into reality.
Every child born in this country becomes a instant citizen.Unforntunately that shouldn't be the case. However each child born here is entitled to food stamps ,housing assistance,social security disability,free medical care,WIC,free food at food banks,etc....These benefits are afforded to the parents to manage on behalf of their children.This is why you see illegals having so many children and when their daughters turn15 and up are encouraged to have children ,so the cycle is continued.
We have a generation of children who were born here and are coming of an age to start having children.Now the whole family qualifies for assistance.
I am sick and tired of hearing illegals don't get benefits.It's a smoke screen.Their children born here are used to get benefits.
These benefits are only a small portion of what illegals are costing us.
Hospitals,schools,no insurance,identity theft,not paying taxes,drugs,crime,overcrowding,decline of neighborhoods,grafitti,gangs and a decline in wages.The list could go on and on.
I'm waiting for someone in government besides Tom Tancredo to stand up and do something.
Amnesty is not an option!.
Posted by on May 8, 2007 07:06 AMIf I wanted to live in Mexico, I WOULD MOVE THERE!!! Enforcement is the answer.
Posted by truthy on May 8, 2007 07:09 AMEvery citizen should do everything they can to destroy the profits of those who hire illegals because neither political party will enforce existing laws.
Many other states have enacted laws by a vote of the people to end giving benefits like state welfare, food stamps, instate tuition, health insurance, etc... to illegal aliens.
These departments cried fowl saying there was no abuse by illegals taking advantage. When asked how many illegals apply for these benefits no one could answer because THEY'D NEVER ASKED AN APPLICANT ABOUT THEIR LEGAL STATUS BEFORE. They had absolutely no idea yet stood there defending the current policy.
The problem exists here in CO as well. The various aide departments deny it but unless we demand it from our legislature this sort of thing will continue unabated.
Posted by KW on May 8, 2007 10:23 AM"The contention that illegal immigrants fill jobs that Americans won’t do is simply not true."
Sure it is. Ask the farmers who didn't get their crops picked this summer because of Colorado's "toughest in the nation laws on immigration". Go to Swift in Greeley and see how many, if any, of all those who applied after the raid are still working or got a job at all.
"If there were no illegal immigrants to fill the less desirable jobs, employers would have no choice but to offer more money until those same jobs became more appealing. That’s the law of supply and demand."
Ah, now Mr. Smith changes the proposition to something different. If he were honest, presumably he would *agree* with the following statement instead of the one he attempted to shoot down: 'Immigrants fill the hard manual labor, low paying jobs that Americans won’t work under those terms'.
Mr. Smith is right to assert that if employers offered more money, more jobs would go to American citizens. But ironically, no one here is calling for raising wages, only for knocking down Mexicans, complete with the usual mis- and false information about how much "they're" costing us, blah, blah, blah.
If you were so concerned about the working class, I'd think you'd be talking about wages and labor standards, instead of blaming immigrants (who are also part of the working class). I worked at least two jobs (1 FT, + 1 or PT) for years, and the fact didn't escape me there were a lot of other people working two jobs besides me. It's funny that hardly anyone ever talks about this or other problems of working people (least of all, Tandcredo). We have 49 million people in this country without health coverage--which dwarfs the 10-12 million undocumented population. So what is the real problem?
Posted by anderson on May 8, 2007 10:59 AMSome of the jobs where illegal workers are most prevalent today were once the mainstay of college students needing to make some good money to put toward their education. I'm thinking of framing carpentry, landscaping, painting, as well as many resort jobs in places like Aspen and Vail. Unfortunately it's no longer possible to save much money while working these jobs because the wages have not kept up with inflation. I don't think there is such a thing as "a job that Americans won't take" but there is such a thing as an unacceptable wage.
Posted by karen on May 8, 2007 10:59 AMIt is clear that illegals do come here to take jobs most Americans do not want, like the illegal alien terror cell busted today in NJ: they wanted to kill soldiers in the Northeast.
Most Americans would not want that job.
Posted by Gunny Bob on May 8, 2007 11:10 AMAnderson,
Fine, raise the wage levels, but not until they get rid of the Illegal Immigrants working there. Otherwise the Illegals will get a big salary increase on top of the other benefits they are receiving for free.
On the Insurance Issue, If we take the 12 million Illegals away there are only 37 million without insurance. That's a 25% decrease off the top!
Posted by on May 8, 2007 11:12 AMGunny Bob, how many people have you encouraged to poop their pants today? I smell something foul.
Posted by anderson on May 8, 2007 11:26 AM"Fine, raise the wage levels, but not until they get rid of the Illegal Immigrants working there. Otherwise the Illegals will get a big salary increase on top of the other benefits they are receiving for free."
In other words, no one here in this room gets a raise, until we get rid of "those" people. Cause if they were to get a raise, that would be worse than us getting a raise.
Anderson,
I'm refering to the wage levels of the jobs that "only Illegals will do". And if you're working with Illegals, then yes, you don';t get a raise until they are gone.
A good friend of mine is 70 years old, and he financed his college education by working construction, and a foundry, and other back breaking jobs that Americans supposedly won't do.
Young American people entering the workforce used to start out in food service, construction, retail and other similar jobs. When was the last time you heard English only on the construction site or in your local fast food joint. These entry level positions are being stolen from Americans by illegal aliens and unscrupulous businesses.
Secure the border and dry up the supply of subsidized illegal alien labor. Prosecute and punish the business owner who knowingly and willing hires illegal alien labor. Illegal aliens will not come here if businesses no longer hire them for fear of prosecution. This approach attacks the problem from both sides of the employment front.
The pro-illegal alien mantra of "illegal immigrants do the jobs Americans won't do" is nothing but a lie.
Posted by QBT on May 8, 2007 11:38 AMWho did "THE JOBS AMERICANS WON"T DO"? MY father re-tired from being a JANITOR...In the 50's,60'.My mother was a stay at home mom for three children..She worked when we were in high school.
You can't do that any more not this day, with wages driven down. All friends family..people we all knew were working in warehouse, factory,domestic,delivery..Every job illegals
say no American will do. This is a slap in the face to American citizens. We didn't need them then..we don't need them now!
Who did "THE JOBS AMERICANS WON"T DO"? MY father re-tired from being a JANITOR...In the 50's,60'.My mother was a stay at home mom for three children..She worked when we were in high school.
You can't do that any more not this day, with wages driven down. All friends family..people we all knew were working in warehouse, factory,domestic,delivery..Every job illegals
say no American will do. This is a slap in the face to American citizens. We didn't need them then..we don't need them now!
"Young American people entering the workforce used to start out in food service, construction, retail and other similar jobs."
They still do.
"When was the last time you heard English only on the construction site or in your local fast food joint."
I don't work construction and I never eat fast food, but your anecdotes do not substitute for reality--unless you're trying to show us only part of the picture.
"These entry level positions are being stolen from Americans by illegal aliens and unscrupulous businesses."
Stolen? Are you out of a job, know anyone who is out of a job because of immigrant labor, or is is that you're unable to argue about anything without lying or exaggerating?
Your 70 year old friend would have been college age in the late '50s--during the middle of our Bracero program (1942-1964), in which many Mexicans were encouraged to work here, in the U.S. under a guest worker arrangement. Yet your friend mangaged to find work. I'm amazed his jobs weren't "stolen" too.
"Secure the border and dry up the supply of subsidized illegal alien labor. Prosecute and punish the business owner who knowingly and willing hires illegal alien labor. Illegal aliens will not come here if businesses no longer hire them for fear of prosecution. This approach attacks the problem from both sides of the employment front."
And how does that work on "this side"? 10-12 million people you're going to do what with? How? And the children? Will you kick them in the stomach for having chosen the wrong parents?
Posted by anderson on May 8, 2007 11:55 AMIf we could raise the wages we would. But you can't force somebody to raise the amount of money they want to give for the job, that has to be done by the employer.
Posted by on May 8, 2007 11:59 AMI know many people who were put out of work because of immigrant labor. What is your point?
Posted by on May 8, 2007 12:01 PM"If we could raise the wages we would. But you can't force somebody to raise the amount of money they want to give for the job, that has to be done by the employer."
A reasonable point. But we can, by law, raise minimum wages and other labor standards. Last I checked, farm labor had an even lower minimum wage. Second, if we do something about the "underground" immigrant labor, by changing our broken immigration laws, it seems it would be a lot easier to track workers and uphold labor standards. Virtually all the people who cross illegally do so for economic reasons, and most would enter legally if given the opportunity. Nobody wants to be underground. We all want to be legit.
"I know many people who were put out of work because of immigrant labor. What is your point?"
I'm asking because I think most people who make that claim don't actually know anyone who is out of work because of immigrant labor. Undocumented immigrants generally compete only with unskilled uneducated labor and then only in certain industries: farming, construction, and services. So we're really talking about a small segment of our overall workforce.
Posted by anderson on May 8, 2007 12:13 PMMy husband is a Union Carpenter and has been for about 27 years now. He works for a small construction co. that WILL NOT hire illegals.He makes an excellent living and we can afford for me to stay at home and raise our 2 children.That is our American dream.
We have been married 24 years this month. We both have worked our tails off to get to where we are. I taught preschool for many years and when I moved out here I was a nanny before starting my family.We have never been without work,why?We are the best at what we do.
No illegal can take his job.The company would not survive on shoddy workmanship. You need to read,write,measure and understand blueprints.You need to make sure your work is top notch or the company fails.Now he works for a small company but they do expert craftmanship.They do not tolerate carpenters of any nationality doing crappy work. they fire American carpenters often if they are not up to par.
That being said ,if I went back to work as a nanny I would be in competition with illegals too. They cannot prevent me from getting a high paying job,because I am great at what I do.If someone wants to hire an illegal immigrant to be their nanny to save money they have that right.If you want to put your children in the hands of an incompetant illegal who can disappear overnight if she harms your children go ahead.Just don't cry about it because you wanted to save a buck on your children's welfare.
People who do high quality work will always land on their feet.
The mass of illegals today are building your homes you are buying and paying too much for.My husband does mostly commercial.The craftmanship of the trash you are buying is hilarious.You better not plan on staying in that house forever because it won't last without repair after repair.
If you want to start boycotting illegals stop buying new homes,stop going to hotels unless they can prove they are not hiring illegals and if enough people asked and walked away they would stand up and take notice. Stop eating in restaurants if you can't get a answer when asked if their are illegals cooking or serving your food,walk out.
If you see one of your friends has hired an illegal to nanny their children turn them in for the children's sake.
Stop hiring lawn companies unless they can for sure not have illegals working for them,say no thank you I'll keep looking.
Boycott all Mexican establishments.
We don't have to protest in the streets.We can make a major impact with our wallets.Everyone who hates what our country is becoming and hates illegals demanding rights that we don't have stop and think before you buy or where you eat.
Start writing you representatives everyday from the city to the capitol. We must be heard now.We can complain to the papers and on blogs until we are blue in the face. This is getting us nowhere.Our voices need to be heard loud and clear,over and over until someone gets it.
Illegals are not wanted in this country.
NO AMNESTY!!!!
So anderson, we have 12 million illegals here now yet you say the farmers can't find enough illegals to hire to pick the crops.
Something tells me even the illegals have decided they don't want those jobs either.
Posted by KW on May 8, 2007 12:31 PMI do agree with that anderson. But raising minimum wage isn't going to do anything about the problem, because as we all know, when minimum wage goes up, so does everything else, property taxes, rent, utilities, etc. Small as the wokforce may be, it still happens, and that I think is what people are mad about.
Posted by on May 8, 2007 12:33 PMAmen!
Posted by on May 8, 2007 12:35 PM"But raising minimum wage isn't going to do anything about the problem, because as we all know, when minimum wage goes up, so does everything else, property taxes, rent, utilities, etc. Small as the wokforce may be, it still happens, and that I think is what people are mad about."
I think people are mad by and large because they're poked and prodded into being mad. We have a long history of this thing called nativism. As I mentioned earlier, 49 million uninsured and we're up in arms about what? 12 million people who showed up for work?
Yes minimum wage may have some effect on the other things you mention, but I dont' think it is significant. Your argument is the same one used by those who never want a minimum wage.
My post at 12:44.
KW, evidently it's impossible for you to put yourself in anyone else's shoes, even for a moment, but the crops went unpicked this year because undocumented immigrants and their families didn't come here for the season because of the atmosphere of the "toughest laws in the nation" state of Colorado. You think they don't know what's going on? So in this way, you and Schulteis can claim success. You scared a lot of people. Most probably didn't leave the country, and more are attempting to come in, but you scared a lot of people. I hope that makes you feel better.
Posted by anderson on May 8, 2007 12:51 PM"Undocumented immigrants generally compete only with unskilled uneducated labor and then only in certain industries..."
I have been underemployed for two years now and every time I try to apply for any short term position in order to boister my earning power a little until I can get full-time job, I am told that there are either no positions available or the pay is so low that taking the job would not be worth it. All this for a person who has a graduate degree, two undergraduate degrees, and more awards and honor society memberships than you can shake a stick at....the American Dream is slowly evaporating.
Oh, and thank you AMEN!!! for your post, it's absolutely true. My friend is a roofer who has owned his own business for 20 years and does excellent work, but is slowly being pushed out of the market because his prices cannot compete with low-wage, poor quality illegal labor...just think of all those shoddy houses that the people down in Highlands Ranch live in!!!!
Posted by Welsh Dragon on May 8, 2007 01:01 PMHonestly I think that most people are up in arms because things like getting fast food, getting a contractor for some home improvements, all would be easier if you spoke spanish. That and hearing an illegal alien complain about how their rights are being trampled on and how all the forms and documents they need to have should be in spanish.
Posted by on May 8, 2007 01:02 PMMaybe if high school career days featured migrant workers exlpaining their careers' of back-breaking labor and always having to follow the harvest, there would be more Americans picking fruit and veggies.
Posted by Sean on May 8, 2007 01:18 PM"As I mentioned earlier, 49 million uninsured and we're up in arms about what? 12 million people who showed up for work?" - 12:44
Most of that 49 million without health insurance CHOOSE to not have it. They are under 30 and healthy and do not want it.
The 12 million illegals do not all work. Only about 5 million have jobs. Guess what the rest of them might be up to? 7 miilion illegals are the families and relatives and children and on and on of the 5 million that do work. They are in our schools, emergency rooms, jails, social service offices, DMVs, and on and on.
Posted by Michael on May 8, 2007 01:26 PM"Most of that 49 million without health insurance CHOOSE to not have it."
Suure they do.
"They are in our DMVs"
Suure they are.
Posted by anderson on May 8, 2007 01:31 PMMichael - anderson hasn't ever had to wait in an overcrowded ER behind a 50 illegals who were there for the sniffles. He thinks those here illegally are entitled to the rights of US citizens.
anderson - I'm a bit short of cash this month. OK if I break into your home and take a few things so I can feed my family? I'm just trying to better my life. Really! I've started a small pot sales business too. I know it's illegal, just like stealing from you but hey, I'm only trying to better my life. You don't mind if I do it at your expenses, do you?
Posted by KW on May 8, 2007 01:37 PMGood one, Sean. When I was of high school age, I often dreamed of picking strawberries for a living, but, alas, had no role models to follow or career guidance.
I found it interesting that in the economist testimony I linked to earlier, that the one most critical as to the effects of immigration (Cheswick) gave as an example of affected workers: high school kids without summer jobs.
Posted by anderson on May 8, 2007 01:38 PM"Nobody wants to be underground. We all want to be legit".
Finally, the quote from Anderson (above) explains his consistently irrational stand for the pro-illegal group.
Explains alot!
Posted by on May 8, 2007 01:40 PMKW, I see you readily make up stories about me the same as you readily make up stories about the Mexican people you evidently so dislike. Speaking of careers, have you ever thought of being a writer for talk radio?
Posted by anderson on May 8, 2007 01:43 PMSo according to anderson we have 49 million without health insurance. That means we have reached record low numbers for uninsured Americans.
49 million uninsured -12 million illegals = 37 million Americans uninsured
That means were down to only 12% uninsured out of 300 million people. Sounds like good news to me.
Posted by KW on May 8, 2007 01:44 PMAnderson,
You need to stay out of these discussions because you quote statistics and a bunch of other BS when the fact of the matter is....THEY ARE BREAKING THE LAW. Can you argue that point???? Can You??? I didn't think so.
You ruin this format for a lot of others because you cut and paste for the confusion it causes.
You aren't debating, you are BAITING. And I, for one am sick of you and your cronies who take over these discussions like you are inciting a frickin' war.
As Americans, YOU should be upset about this issue,too. But, again, it's not a problem in white-bread country. Move to the city and try to get along. Americans aren't filling those jobs such as the ones at Swift because we don't want to live with a bunch of Mexicans so we won't move to Greeley, and support their educations (in Spanish) or feed them, or provide health care for them, GOT IT.
THAT is what the issue is......
Scaaty, I've discussed the "breaking the law" point many times before, and again today. Which of my responses did you not understand? Of course, if you want to shut off any discussion at that point you are like those monkeys who say "see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil". Sorry to provide a dissenting view on the RMN. God forbid! You, of course, are free to turn to talk radio or Lou Dobbs for solace. There you will hear no dissent whatsoever. Kind of makes it easy that way.
Posted by anderson on May 8, 2007 04:26 PMStill dodging the other things I brought up.
You only want to incite people, Anderson. That's my objection to your posts. You aren't any smarter than the rest of us yet you look down from your lily white tower and tell us we are wrong to be concerned about these issues. Live with the Mexican, then tell us our feelings of helplessness and hopelessness are wrong.
Have your child held back in school because the only class with openings is in Spanish only, stand in line at the bank where it takes three times as long and three times as many people to cash a check, wait at the ER behind people who are criminally obtaining health care, give your order 3 times at the fast food place and then still get the wrong things.
Do these things so that you can feel empathy for those of us who can't live in Parker, Castle Rock, Evergreen,etc. as you must.
Don't shoot us down because you think we are racists, look at our complaints with empathy and perhaps you will change your ideas about "live and let live."
Posted by SCAATY on May 8, 2007 04:52 PMScaaty, I don't pretend to have all the answers. But I've studied the issue of immigration and quite often I get the impression that others know nothing other than what they've heard from the rabble rousers on the radio. I can generally tell when someone is speaking from personal experience (which is usually more credible) and those who are merely making ugly assertions based on something they heard from Dobbs or Boyles--which is when my sarcasm tends to rise.
I can't pretend to know your personal experiences but to counter your insinuations I have had Mexicans for neighbors and I live in Denver, not the suburbs. I don't eat fast food, I don't play golf, and I haven't been to the ER for any reason for eons.
Can't say I know anything about illegal immigration, but I can tell you that having done it legally, the process is a sham and an expensive load of rubbish.
I can quite understand anybody who gives up halfway and just goes down to Colfax to buy a greencard.
Posted by Bango Skank on May 8, 2007 05:52 PMBango ,It should be hard. It is morons with attitudes like yours that are ruining this country.You,of all people,having come here legally,should know this.
Posted by [LOVE IT OR LEAVE IT!] is GET REAL on May 8, 2007 09:00 PMLove It
I think you might change your mind if you had been through the expensive, senseless, and drawn out process.
It is a mockery and makes immigrants cynical.
Posted by Bango Skank on May 8, 2007 09:48 PMAnderson,
Do you really believe that the only jobs the illegal immigrants are taking are produce pickers? You are either truly naive or being intellectually dishonest.
They are migrating into every field in the labor market and there is a study from the Los Angles area that states for every 5 illegal immigrants on the job the wage scale is decreased.
I just have one question for you, why do you defend illegal immigration? I really would like to know because I don’t understand your arguments defending this.
I'll be glad to sell you our shoddy illegal alien built house Anderson. You will love all the features (failed flat-work, leaky roof, damaged drywall, leaky windows, poor plumbing, electrical & HVAC systems, snakes, mice, high energy bills, etc) it has thanks to unskilled labor. The only skill exhibited with the construction of this house was the frosting the builder put on this dog turd to make it look OK; but once the frosting melted, its true nature was uncovered.
Although we like our neighborhood and no it's not in Highlands Ranch, we would dearly love to sell this lemon; but no one would buy it especially in the current buyers market. This place was suppose to be our last move before permanent checkout occurs for each of us; but we wonder which will die first...the house or us.
Ours is not an isolated incident; a friend of mine used to sell houses for KB Homes in South Carolina, and the things he witnessed illegal aliens do on the job site (shoddy workmanship, drunkenness, hit & run, theft, etc); he was sick and embarrassed to work for such a slipshod outfit. He told KB Homes to take a hike and is a realtor now.
Posted by QBT on May 9, 2007 12:34 AMQBT, ever read 'Confessions of an Economic Hitman"?
If not, I suggest you do, it gives some insight into why these people are coming here rather than staying in their own countries.
Of course you could just read Chomsky or Zinn, but that would be entirely too much of a shock.
Posted by on May 9, 2007 08:27 AMBill:
"Anderson, Do you really believe that the only jobs the illegal immigrants are taking are produce pickers? You are either truly naive or being intellectually dishonest."
As I've said before, they are competing with unskilled uneductated labor in construction, farming and services. Did you miss that statement? Did you miss my links to the Bell report of the testimony of economists before the Senate? What I'm saying is well documented in the literature. Of course there are a plethora of scare mongers who will tell you anything to feed fear and hatred.
"They are migrating into every field in the labor market and there is a study from the Los Angles area that states for every 5 illegal immigrants on the job the wage scale is decreased."
Ah yes, well, the United States is a lot bigger than L.A.
"I just have one question for you, why do you defend illegal immigration? I really would like to know because I don’t understand your arguments defending this."
I do not "support" illegal immigration. We should enforce our laws. However, the problem is what we're going to do about our obviously unworking laws. If you think beating up on poor, and politically powerless immigrants is the answer, then you have a fight with me. If you are interested in practical solutions, which includes recognizing the humanity of the people involved, then I'm listening.
Why do I do this? History tells us, we are a nation of immigrants, and every past wave of immigrants has been reviled and lied about. History also shows us that we killed Indians, and lynched blacks, and, always, always, there was some sort of "justification" for this. I dont' want us to repeat this sordid part of our history nor do I want to see our society divided. The anti-Mexican crowd (thinking of talk radio, Dobbs, minutemen, Tancredo and Shulteis) is *definitely* interested in division. Without it, they wouldn't have a leg to stand it and the money and votes would stop flowing in.
In case you missed them, here are just who credible sources of information on the effects of immigration.
http://judiciary.senate.gov/hearing.cfm?id=1851
http://www.thebell.org/issues/img/issues.php
Posted by anderson on May 9, 2007 10:36 AM"Why do I do this? History tells us, we are a nation of immigrants, and every past wave of immigrants has been reviled and lied about. History also shows us that we killed Indians, and lynched blacks, and, always, always, there was some sort of "justification" for this. I dont' want us to repeat this sordid part of our history nor do I want to see our society divided. The anti-Mexican crowd (thinking of talk radio, Dobbs, minutemen, Tancredo and Shulteis) is *definitely* interested in division. Without it, they wouldn't have a leg to stand it and the money and votes would stop flowing in."
Anderson, for that comment, I say you are a sanctimonious idiot and you should be ignored by every poster on this forum.
Nothing in your comment was in any way relevant to the discussion of illegal immigration.
Can you name a period in American history where the amount of immigrants that flowed into this country in such a short period of time equaled the amount of Mexican "immigrants" that have flowed into this country in the past 10 years? It is unprecedented.
By the way, anderson, every nation is a nation of immigrants.
Posted by QQQ on May 9, 2007 11:16 AMYou first insult me, then ask a question? Whatever, Idiot.
Posted by anderson on May 9, 2007 11:36 AM"It is unprecedented."
No, it's not. But you would have to know something about American history. Evidently, you don't.
"No, it's not."
Well, enlighten us then with your knowledge of American history. If it's not unprecedented, where's the precedent?
Posted by QQQ on May 9, 2007 11:47 AMLook at % of foreign born population (over 14%) at turn of 20th century. By last count, still higher than today. Not sure what the current flow of Mexicans (by number or percentage) has this has to do with anything I said before, but, hey, I'm just an idiot.
http://www.census.gov/population/www/documentation/twps0029/tab01.html
Four points:
1) You're an idiot
2) The data for 1990 is over tens years old, It doesn't take into account the enormous flow of illegal immigrants of the past 10 years.
3) Illegals are undocumented so how can they be accounted for in a government census?
4) It has nothing to do with what I asked you. The amount of immigrants that flowed into this country in the past 10 years is unprecedented in the history of the USA. You disputed that. I asked you to prove me wrong.
You're an idiot, anderson. You poison this forum with your prolific foolishness. I think you'd feel more at home with the other idiots at Daily Kos
Posted by QQQ on May 9, 2007 12:16 PMSorry to waste your time, and mine.
Posted by anderson on May 9, 2007 01:06 PMAnderson,
I see your point but.... the immigrants from the past were legal and took our laws into account and didn’t assume that we owed them citizenship because they made it into the country anyway they could and that seems to be the main bone of contention here.
And as a side note I never brought up Mexicans, just illegal.
Bill, in the past we had "open borders" more or less. The border patrol was created in 1924 as I understand it, to catch the "reviled" Chinese immigrants of the day who would try to enter the U.S. through the southern border--they being the first immigrants specifically excluded by nationality.
I don't think immigrants in general think they are "owed" anything other than respect as human beings. Not all want to be citizens. But they like us all want respect.
Posted by anderson on May 10, 2007 08:25 PM