‘In God We Trust’
Since then we have lived through new understandings brought about by Copernicus, Neuton, Einstein, and Quantum Physics. The new understandings brought about by these scientific advancements, as well as advances in enlightenment and rational thinking, should have brought about a corresponding evolution of faith. Instead we are still stuck with a concept of the Divinethathaspatriarchal connotations. If there is a Divine, it can now be best described as an evolutionary force related to our being and the universal dynamics of self-organization. To treat a force as if it is a being is a category mistake. We might honor the historical use of the word God, but it should be retired from public sight-everywhere.
This letter has not been edited.
I don't see how "In God We Trust" implies "Divinethathaspatriarchal connotations." Why can't it imply "an evolutionary force related to our being and the universal dynamics of self-organization?"
Posted by Bob on May 15, 2007 02:28 PMYour mistake is to assume religious ideologues of any faith are capable of reasonable rational thought. So much easier to hide behind their “all powerful” god to explain their diversive behavior.
Posted by Western Slope on May 15, 2007 03:27 PMWestern Slope
I am very content to hide behind my "All Powerful" God. As a wise man once said, "The name of the Lord is a stong tower, the righteous run to it, and are safe." One day we will all stand before Him and on that day there will be "not place to run, and no place to hide" as they say. Better settle things with Him and His Son while you have a chance. Bow the knee in reverence now, or bow the knee in terror then. It's your choice.
And your imaginary friend too.
Posted by B. Drunk on May 15, 2007 04:24 PMWestern Slope said:
"Your mistake is to assume religious ideologues of any faith are capable of reasonable rational thought. "
Then tally swept in on cue to affirm his correctness:
"One day we will all stand before Him and on that day there will be "not place to run, and no place to hide" as they say."
Based on what evidence besides the Bible do you believe this tally?
In Science We Trust
Posted by Sean on May 15, 2007 04:30 PM"Wow" .....Tally, does a loving God need to scare the hell out of everyone with threats of severe punishment? Your comments sound very much like the terror ridden people who have lived or are living under ruthless dictatorships. Boy, you must be shaking in your boots!!!
I guess living in fear is the "Christian" way huh???
Posted by A on May 15, 2007 04:31 PMCongress changes our motto from Many Come One (sounds like the trinity, huh?) to In God We Trust and since America has lost one war and is about to lose another.
Posted by Richard Grimes Risen Ape r22037@yahoo.com ffrf.org on May 15, 2007 04:42 PMThe ‘Wise Man’ might very well have been wise, but he was ignorant of the nature of the world and universe around him. The ‘wise men’ that came after did their best attempt to take over the world using fear and death as their weapons. Now they were not the first, or the last to do so. Ultimate power is ultimately corrupting for us mere mortals. Notice I did not attack any faith in general. There are many who have strong beliefs and still recognize that most of what has passed as religious teaching is based on fear and the desire to control the masses. The truly righteous do the right thing not out of fear, but out of a compassion for all. You have every right to your belief, but spare me your rhetoric. It took the church until 1992 to admit that Galieo was right and they were the uninformed ones.
Regarding: an Evolutionary force, etc: not enough room on the coin.
Make a llst of all the places Christians can put the word God or their symbols.
home, schools, churches, businesses, cars bikes, clothing, skin, jewelry, property, camps and in the phone book on their ads.
Can`t you people ever be satisfied?
Posted by Sharon B. on May 15, 2007 05:28 PMWestern Slope, you are correct that it is about power and control. it It is also about those pushing these religious teachings (from any religion) being able to make a living at it without producing anything of value to society. They live off of the power we give them, not on what they actually produce.
There are many among us who are moral people who did not need the fear implicit in the religious teachings to get their bearings and lead a good life.
Posted by RU Serious on May 15, 2007 05:32 PMCharles B
The life of Christ is a pretty good basis for belief in the rest of the Bible.
But to directly answer your question.
My belief is derived from the Bible alone.
Charles B
One other comment. I have no need to affirm my correctness in the area of the existence of God or man's need of a Savior in the person of Jesus Christ. I present the truth of the Bible as the Lord told His followers they must do. If you were floating down a river on a lazy summer day, unaware that around the bend there was a waterfall, and I was on the bank of the river, completely aware that there was a waterfall, my warning to you would not affirm the existence of the waterfall within my mind.
talley claimed:
"My belief is derived from the Bible alone."
From the Hebrew version? Or which version exactly? Aramaic? Greek?
Let me ask you:
Have you ever tried to construct a rationalization for your beliefs apart from whatever Bible it is that you believe in?
As for this:
"The life of Christ is a pretty good basis for belief in the rest of the Bible."
Talk about circular reasoning! But of course it's usually the endpoint for a "conversation" like this...
Posted by Charles B on May 15, 2007 07:12 PMAnd if all you "enlightend free thinkers had your way and gained contorl of this society like "the church" that you so distain once controled society, just how long do you think it would be befor you started , for the sake of every one of coures (nothing personal) doing away with all those uneducated religous people? For the sake of all man kind of course. There were well over 100,000,000 people killed by enlightend free thinkers in the last century alone. Never forget folks, the communist governments had free'ed them selves from thw bondage of faith systems. Your ranting about how horible people of faith are just shows how hatful you are inside. You need to remember People of faith have a place in this society just as much as you do.
Posted by Higaba on May 15, 2007 07:16 PMHave you ever noticed that ATHIESTS don`t argue and fight wars over what nobody really knows for sure? Maybe we would be better off without any religion except what is in our own heart. Of course, then we would have to resort to developing our own ideas with the use of the brains we have been endowed with and not listen to another person who claims he/she do think they know. We may all find out after the end that we were all wrong.
Posted by Richard on May 15, 2007 07:48 PMHigaba:
"Your ranting about how horible(sic) people of faith are just shows how hatful(sic) you are inside. "
Who has called "people of faith" horrible?
Posted by Charles B on May 15, 2007 09:26 PMI absolutely love Richard's quote, "Maybe we would be better off without any religion except what is in our own heart." Why?
For me, spirituality should be an individual expression of the faith that one holds in the Universe, not some contrived belief system that tries to force a one size fits all mentality on its supporters. After all, no one has exactly the same faith in a deity or other supernatural force, that's why religion has continually splintered throughout history.
Of course, as Richard notes, by actually trying to use our brains to think for ourselves one might actually become enlightened or reach salvation, which for many is actually a scary thing.
Posted by Welsh Dragon on May 15, 2007 10:45 PMDear Tally,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your posts, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.
Posted by All religion is a mental illness on May 15, 2007 11:12 PMHow is a book, written not by the man in question, but by men, 200 to 400 years later, proof of it’s truth? One can just as easily say that if a man on an island yells to a man sailing bye, ‘You will fall off the edge of the earth, if you continue.’ Just because the man on the island thinks the earth is flat, does not mean the earth is flat.
I know that there are many versions, but the one that most like to wave in our faces will do for example. Many passages in the bible are contradictory, or just plain wrong. Passages about daughters sleeping with their father, or killing one’s own child are just some of the ‘truths’ contained within. The problem with any book written long ago is just the fact that mankind was just plain ignorant of how his surroundings work. I am not trying to say that we have all the answers now, just that we knew virtually nothing when the bible was written. Back 1400 to 1800 years ago, mankind was a bully system. If you were stronger then the guy next door, you could do what you pleased. It is true that early religions tried their best to bring some sort of order to the world. Where they fail is in failing to grow as a living document. Can you imagine the world where a female would be stoned to death by having an affair? No matter what one believes, one can feel that it is justice. Our modern rule of law can evolve to what we know now as right, most rule by religion is stuck in the dark ages. This is especially a problem in some parts of the Muslim world, but the Western world is not immune. The bible speaks of having slaves, is that
valid just because it was written by man, long ago?
As far as saying that there is evil everywhere, does not make any brand of evil right. If there is an evil atheist, christian, jew, Muslim, or any other group, it is the duty of all people of compassion to call it out. What most organized religions do is cause one group to play off the other group. Be it Muslim against Jew, or Protestant against Catholic, or Mormon against every one else and so on. It is all wrong and the only reason that they are fighting is because of religion. I just wish people of all religions and non-religions could learn to live together.
Posted by on May 15, 2007 11:29 PMHow is a book, written not by the man in question, but by men, 200 to 400 years later, proof of it’s truth? One can just as easily say that if a man on an island yells to a man sailing bye, ‘You will fall off the edge of the earth, if you continue.’ Just because the man on the island thinks the earth is flat, does not mean the earth is flat.
I know that there are many versions, but the one that most like to wave in our faces will do for example. Many passages in the bible are contradictory, or just plain wrong. Passages about daughters sleeping with their father, or killing one’s own child are just some of the ‘truths’ contained within. The problem with any book written long ago is just the fact that mankind was just plain ignorant of how his surroundings work. I am not trying to say that we have all the answers now, just that we knew virtually nothing when the bible was written. Back 1400 to 1800 years ago, mankind was a bully system. If you were stronger then the guy next door, you could do what you pleased. It is true that early religions tried their best to bring some sort of order to the world. Where they fail is in failing to grow as a living document. Can you imagine the world where a female would be stoned to death by having an affair? No matter what one believes, one can feel that it is justice. Our modern rule of law can evolve to what we know now as right, most rule by religion is stuck in the dark ages. This is especially a problem in some parts of the Muslim world, but the Western world is not immune. The bible speaks of having slaves, is that
valid just because it was written by man, long ago?
As far as saying that there is evil everywhere, does not make any brand of evil right. If there is an evil atheist, christian, jew, Muslim, or any other group, it is the duty of all people of compassion to call it out. What most organized religions do is cause one group to play off the other group. Be it Muslim against Jew, or Protestant against Catholic, or Mormon against every one else and so on. It is all wrong and the only reason that they are fighting is because of religion. I just wish people of all religions and non-religions could learn to live together.
Posted by Western Slope on May 15, 2007 11:30 PMWhat a great liberal love fest we have here. Sounds alot like global warming crowd. Believing in earthy things didn't build our country. America was built on judeo-Christian believes. Warm and fuzzy feeling beliefs would have starved us just like other third world countrys. Lets go back to the 70's liberals, global cooling crowd were just more fun.
Posted by FW on May 16, 2007 04:00 AMBut Christians are so pushy;, where I live they break the feet off our Darwin fish on the cars. I would never rip off one of their fishes.
Also, in lev. it says rabbits chew their cud. What do belivers say about this and other contradictions. Nada. Is it worse to be a homo or eat oysters? Lev. knocks both, but Christians ignore any they don`t like.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 16, 2007 04:31 AM"Have you ever noticed that ATHIESTS don`t argue and fight wars over what nobody really knows for sure?
No, I sure haven't noticed that Atheiests don't argue about religion. In fact, quite the opposite. And it is understandable. It's part of the human condition and neither believers or non-believers are exempt from it. If you want a species that doesn't argue over such basic matters of life, you'll have to go to the zoo, and I'm not sure you'll find it there.
"Maybe we would be better off without any religion except what is in our own heart."
I'm sure many people with different ideas about religion are speaking from the heart. In some hearts, Christianity, in some atheism, in some Buddhism, and so on.
"Of course, then we would have to resort to developing our own ideas with the use of the brains we have been endowed with and not listen to another person who claims he/she do think they know."
So we shouldn't read about what others have said? No more of the "great books"? No more discussions About religion? Don't learn anything from ohers? I don't think so.
Gimme that ol' Je$u$ Bu$ine$$;
It'll make lots of money for me.
(You know the tune.)
And be sure you put up stone monuments in front of your State Capitols, and Mottos on your coins to remind everyone just how much they are obligated to pay out, too.
Posted by Old Grouch on May 16, 2007 06:24 AMIn God We Trust - all others pay cash.
Posted by Michael on May 16, 2007 06:32 AM"Since then we have lived through new understandings brought about by Copernicus, Neuton, Einstein"
I don't know the religious ideologies of Copernicus, but Einstein and Newton both believed in a higher being, or "God". Einstein said so repeatedly, and Newton had even entered Cambridge to study to become a preacher.
Newton Quote: "the Supreme God exists necessarily, and by the same necessity he exists always and everywhere."
Posted by DS on May 16, 2007 07:31 AMEinstein was agnostic as far as a "personal God" that rewards and punishes, but believe in a creator.
The Encyclopedia Britannica says of him: "Firmly denying atheism, Einstein expressed a belief in "Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of what exists." This actually motivated his interest in science, as he once remarked to a young physicist: "I want to know how God created this world, I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts, the rest are details." Einstein's famous epithet on the "uncertainty principle" was "God does not play dice" - and to him this was a real statement about a God in whom he believed. A famous saying of his was "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Isaac Newton also believed in alchemy, and spent more time on it than he did on physics. Does that mean we should still be looking for the Philosopher's Stone?
Posted by Doug H. on May 16, 2007 07:59 AMI personally don't know if there is a God, but if other people want to believe in one that is fine with me. But please make sure you don't PUSH that belief on me (radical Islam take note). Yea Christians do it too, but I haven't seen them cutting off the heads of "non-belivers" in the last few hundred years. So there is my opinion.
Posted by truthy on May 16, 2007 08:00 AM"In God We Trust"? God?, whose God, according to which religion or Denomination thereof?
Posted by robert white on May 16, 2007 09:03 AMAnd make sure you quit pushing your nonbelief on me as well.
Posted by on May 16, 2007 09:03 AMDitto to Truthy's sentiments.
Posted by Western Slope on May 16, 2007 09:05 AMI do not see any one going door to door trying to convert believers into atheisim. But I do see beleivers going door to door trying to scare people into their flavor of belief. To say the opposite is just a smoke screen.
Posted by Western Slope on May 16, 2007 09:12 AMOld Ban Franklin told the ministers that lightning hit the church towers because they were tall, not because the people were sinners.
Now their dilema: put up lightning rods, and maybe protect sinners from God, or leave the rods off and rebuild the churches every so many years. Go against God or protect the buildings,
What to do, oh what to do?
Posted by Sharon B. on May 16, 2007 09:51 AMTally,
That's great - bow down to the "loving" God because if you don't he's going to torture you in hell for eternity with fire, brimstone and the screams of the damned - because HE LOVES YOU!!! Talk about incomprehensible bronze age mythology (to borrow a phrase from the great Sam Harris).
Actually, I'll probably see Jerry Falwell in hell, drinking a Jack Daniels and cavorting with "Tinky Winky" from the Teletubbies.
Posted by Drew on May 16, 2007 10:16 AMtruthy
"you haven't seen Christians cutting off the heads of non-believers in the past few hundred years."
Obviously you haven't followed the doings of the "Lord's Army"(or whatever they call themselves) in Uganda for the past few years. They also take kids as sex slaves - but maybe they learned that from one of our western European denominations.
Posted by Drew on May 16, 2007 10:21 AMThank you compassionate/merciful for taking the homophobic/misogynistic Jerry Falwell to your turf who blames American's conduct for his need to demolish the twin towers on 9/11/01 in NYC (to which Pat Robertson concurs seeking the assassination of Venzuela's president and threatening to kill Philip Busch who files a lawsuit against Pat).
You were born a Jew coming from the "loins of David" and transmogrified into a Christian god and placed upon America's currency as its motto as a badge of honor because though America is not a Christian nation (see Treaty of Tripoli) it is 90% Christian giving currency to the expression of how scary it is that you have hi-jacked America's charter of her existence, the Constitution through through the license called "faith" that reasonable people give to one another to keep believing when reason fails. Thanks you for the motto, oh transmogrified "loins of David."
Note: Sharon you mentioned women would become goddesses (sp) in Mormonism; however, I underlined the Book and Dogma abridging it from a thousand pages to 216 by leaving out the repetition and I can't find your sentiment. Women in Mormonism are treated like women in the Qu'ran according to Taslima Nasrin having written several books and struggling to remain alive: to wit, "The Qu'ran gives total freedom to men, saying 'Your women are as your field; go into them as you will.' " (2.223) Sharon: Mormon women can't even get into Mormon Paradise unless they are married or accompanied by a man who will have access to all the wives he had on earth, perhaps elsewhere. Me, your friendly deicide
Posted by Richard Grimes Risen Ape r22037@yahoo.com ffrf.org on May 16, 2007 11:01 AMRG, I read a book on Mormonism and Temple Mormons, ( maybe only men get to be Gods). That was years ago.
Isn`t it funny how religions always lose, their holy tablets? Moses and Mormons both did it.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 16, 2007 11:17 AMDrew,
I am so glad I am not you. That is all.
Posted by truthy on May 16, 2007 01:37 PMWhat if were right and you are wrong, and there is a God. What will happen to you if you soul is required of you today.
Posted by Elaine on May 16, 2007 01:56 PMWhat if we are right and there is a God will judge the quick and the dead. What will happen to you if your soul is required of you today?
Posted by Elaine on May 16, 2007 01:59 PMPersonally, I don't trust 'God' at all, at least the followed by our current president and many evangelicals who still support him.
Apparently, Bush's close relationship with 'Jesus' guided his decisions in going to war with Iraq. Given the chaos and lies that preceded and followed these fateful decisions, more likely it was Satan or a lesser demon who was whispering in Bush's ear, giving him the certainty he professed while making every conceivable blunder possible.
Some conservative Catholics, such as the late Fr. Malachi Martin, believe that liberalization of Vatican II and pedophilia scandals resulted from demonic possession at the highest levels in Rome, so Satanic/demonic possession of a world leaders is not unprecendented.
Posted by on May 16, 2007 01:59 PMWhat if we are right and there is a God who will judge the quick and the dead?
Posted by Elaine on May 16, 2007 02:01 PMWhat if we are right and there is a God will judge the quick and the dead. What will happen to you if your soul is required of you today?
Elaine -- great point and thanks for thinking of what might be required of my soul later this afternoon. I have $.43 in my pocket and every coin has 'In God We Trust' on the front. I'm okay, right?
BTW, I'm dying to ask this blog...am I the only one to notice that when the GOP controlled Congress American's souls were 36% more likely to get into heaven than they are now that Democrats are in control?
Posted by on May 16, 2007 02:14 PMThe poor will be with us always. Let every man work out his own salvation with fear and trimbling. There is evidence in this world that there are truly some things to be feared that men do daily. We all (Christians) need to examine ourselves to see if we are doing all that we can to speak the word of truth that is able to save.
Posted by Elaine on May 16, 2007 02:30 PM2:14 poster. Now don`t make an asp of yourself.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 16, 2007 02:31 PMtruthy,
I'm glad you're not me as well - really glad. That's all.
Posted by Drew on May 16, 2007 02:51 PMThere is evidence in this world that there are truly some things to be feared that men do daily.
I agree wholeheartedly. I have found what appear to be whiskers in the bathroom sink each morning after my husband spends some time in there. It scares me to think what that SOB is up to.
Posted by on May 16, 2007 02:56 PM"We all (Christians) need to examine ourselves to see if we are doing all that we can to speak the word of truth that is able to save."
And it wouldn't hurt a bit to quit preaching once in a while and do something for somebody. Take St. Francis' advise: "preach the gospel at all times; use words if necessary".
Posted by Truth on May 16, 2007 04:27 PMSam Harris says it best:
"While most Americans believe that getting rid of religion is an impossible goal, much of the developed world has already accomplished it. Any account of a ”god gene” that causes the majority of Americans to helplessly organize their lives around ancient works of religious fiction must explain why so many inhabitants of other First World societies apparently lack such a gene. The level of atheism throughout the rest of the developed world refutes any argument that religion is somehow a moral necessity. Countries like Norway, Iceland, Australia, Canada, Sweden, Switzerland, Belgium, Japan, the Netherlands, Denmark and the United Kingdom are among the least religious societies on Earth. According to the United Nations’ Human Development Report (2005) they are also the healthiest, as indicated by measures of life expectancy, adult literacy, per capita income, educational attainment, gender equality, homicide rate and infant mortality. Conversely, the 50 nations now ranked lowest in terms of human development are unwaveringly religious. Other analyses paint the same picture: The United States is unique among wealthy democracies in its level of religious literalism and opposition to evolutionary theory; it is also uniquely beleaguered by high rates of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy, STD infection and infant mortality. The same comparison holds true within the United States itself: Southern and Midwestern states, characterized by the highest levels of religious superstition and hostility to evolutionary theory, are especially plagued by the above indicators of societal dysfunction, while the comparatively secular states of the Northeast conform to European norms."
Posted by Drew on May 16, 2007 05:14 PM"In God We Trust' was added to US currency in the 1950s. There is no historical or cultural basis for it at all. I imagine Christ was a fine man; too bad so many of his followers stink and are pig ignorant about so many things.
Posted by Chris Heller on May 16, 2007 05:41 PMIs no one going to answer those questions listed above. you know the ones from Leviticus?
All you Bible quoters, jump on this, isn`t this your meat and drink?
Posted by Sharon B. on May 16, 2007 08:43 PMso if not trusting God, then what? trust the enlightened supreme liberal mind, or mother nature, or simply rely on trusting nothing but what makes you feel good...give me a break, I'm so tired of the godless humanists I could puke. you claim that your brilliance illuminates the way to a God free existence based on science...you are empty, you have no moral compass, and you become self centered hate filled beings...and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that that is unhealthy. Do us all a favor and find something good to believe in , your brain just doesn't cut it.
Posted by TP on May 17, 2007 07:05 AMAnything that keeps us from our instant gratification of any desire MUST be bad, right?
Delaying gratification or even sacrificing it for a common good is out of the question to today's selfish, dysfunctional majority. I have never seen so many depressed, angry, self-absorbed, and immature people before in my life.
It has become the norm. And anything that suggests restraint and sacrifice is very out of vogue right now.
I have no God myself, but I do believe that since we, the human race have yet to find any other beings in our galaxy, it may mean that we are very special. Odds are we are not alone, but imagine the implications if we are!
If then we are special, then we should try to preserve ourselves and be allowed to evolve.
And in my opinion, current human nature threatens that evolution.
We have big imaginative brains that can see an enlightened future, but we cannot forget who we are RIGHT NOW. We must accept our current state if we are to change it. The maddening din of politicians and wacky professors will not foster such acceptance.
In accepting who we are we must understand that we have a long way to go. All the various wars and strife on the planet are proof of this fact. We are VIOLENT beings.
Is this a good thing? No. Is it the truth? Yes.
So what is to be done to improve our future? I DON'T KNOW. But I will tell you this, it is not shahera law, banana republics, or socialist repression that will do the trick.
I personally like the constitutional republic idea best, but even that has some serious interpretation problems that allow for its destruction from within. So how do we structure ourselves governmentally to survive? I DON'T KNOW.
But I think a good start is to be had by OVERPOWERING the really bad ideas above. And that at least for now, involves WAR. It sucks, but it is the ONLY thing contemporary humans really seem to understand. And my allegiance in these wars lies with one nation. The United States.
I know loving the US is REALLY unpopular right now among those who value popularity or peer pressure, but in MY OPINION the United States is Earth's best hope for a future IF we are victorious. If we are not, then I suspect the next few hundred years will be a new dark age where repressive governments such as those of MEXICO, THE MIDDLE EAST, and CHINA will rule the day.
So believe in any God you want, but TRY to believe in the future of the human race as well.
Posted by truthy on May 17, 2007 07:58 AMTP, most of what you say about godless humanists if just made up in your own mind.
We trust in humanity and its goodness and try to work around the bad as much as possilble.
We are not empty, though you would like to see us this way. We have morals that revolve around what is good for the human family and society.
Some of us are so tired of pushy, whiney Christians, who want Gods name smacked on everything, and in every place, that we could puke.
Do US all al favor and find something real to believe in. Like humanity itself.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 17, 2007 09:55 AMWhat if we are right and there is a God who will judge the quick and the dead?
That is a easy one. If there is truly a companionate god, they will look at your life and ask, ‘Have you been a good, compassionate person in your life?’ If the answer is yes, you will not have any problems. To suppose that the only entry is to have professed your ability to worship the god is to assume that the god is so vain that they would need your worship to prove your worthiness. I’ll pass, my god is above such petty things.
Posted by Western Slope on May 17, 2007 10:13 AM'I knew Jesus would bring him home to us'
Family members of a 2-year-old boy who was swept away by a flash flood Monday had hoped that his body would be found, so that he, and not an empty casket, would be buried. RMN Headline
The parents ~~ In God We Trust ~~ in this case petition to the transmogrified Jew, prayed and if their god could deliver them a dead baby he could have delivered to them a live baby since they consider him omniscient. "Nothing fails like prayer," and Muslims do it five times a day in public and Jesus says never pray in public. Bush prays; they pray; and I ask who is winning in Iraq? Me your friendly deicide entering a secular prayer that I slay all superstitious nonsense. Intelligent enough to be an atheist but lack the courage.
Posted by Richard Grimes Risen Ape r22037@yahoo.com (ffrf.org) on May 17, 2007 10:22 AMExactly - there is no "judge" with a white beard & gavel - it's the simple law of cause & effect - what you sow, you reap. And a lot of religious people don't realize that they're already living in a "hell" of their own creation.
Posted by Drew on May 17, 2007 10:24 AMDrew,
Perhaps Omar said it best in the "Rubaiyat".
I sent my soul through the invisible,
Some letter of that after life to spell.
And by and by my sould returned to me and answered,
I myself am Heaven and Hell.
What a pitiful life a person must have anticipating future judgment from a "god" who would be angry and upset over not having a motto on coinage!
Posted by Old Grouch on May 17, 2007 11:54 AMAll religion is a mental illness-
WONDERFUL post.... I've sent to a bunch of people...hope you don't mind...
I actually feel sad right now for those of us who are religious. I'm a fairly religious person. I'm Catholic, 18 years of Catholic brainwashing....err...I mean school. We have a really bad rep! Somewhere along the way religion became all about brimstone and fire and not about peace and redemption and love. Don't get me wrong. I'm not a hippy, flower child, everyone deserves to be loved, person. Some people probably do deserve to get blown up or whatever. But that isn't what religion is about and it's not what God is about. Whether your God is male or female; a Christian God or Islamic God. Whether you read the Torah or the Koran or the Bible, "In God We Trust" is about placing your faith in a higher being. Without faith we have no hope. And without hope, life is really depressing and bleak.
Posted by Meg on May 17, 2007 04:57 PMDrew,
You sound brave as you mock the Living God from your secure little world. One day you will stand before Him and, if at that time, you have not received His sacrificial gift, your mocking will cease.
"Drew,
You sound brave as you mock the Living God from your secure little world. One day you will stand before Him and, if at that time, you have not received His sacrificial gift, your mocking will cease."
Hey Drew, say hello to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for me and watch out for his noodley appendage...
last hope,
I suppose you call it the "Living God" because the trail of human history is littered with the remains of gods every bit as ridiculous as the one you worship.
You keep on sippin' that snake oil and countin' the days till thu rapture ya rube. If I didn't have any scruples I would start my own stupid religion and get in on all that old people social security money. I hear there's a hole in the market now that Falwell is worm dirt.
Posted by Charles B on May 17, 2007 09:53 PMMeg, long ago, when I was a child, I bought into what you think about faith and hope. Then I grew up and learned to have faith and hope in real things. In real people and the real world, you can find all the happiness and wonder of religion. But you get to keep your God given brain too.
Posted by Sharon B. on May 18, 2007 04:44 AMIt's always been a matter of awe and wonder to me that the vocal, vociferous, and most persistent and pestilent of the religious missionaries - who want to "save YOUR soul(s)" here - have never considered the idea that the grimmest picture of hell ever painted might be the prospect of having to spend eternity in THEIR company.
Posted by Old Grouch on May 18, 2007 07:41 AMlast hope,
If you look closely you'll see I'm not mocking "the Living God" I'm mocking wholesale snake oil purchasers such as yourself.
Posted by Drew on May 18, 2007 09:20 AMAs your friendly deicide, slayer of gods, I have for the guys my recommended brand of snake oil in which the god creates virgins without menses, stools, and urine. About a billion Muslims buy into this brand of religion. For the women, sorry, with rare exception, all religion is partriarchal. All they get is the left over if there are any. It is kind of like the crumbs that fall from the table that the transmogrified Jew is willing to give to the Gentiles. Me, your friendly deicide who if you have to have your snake oil: Send $5.
Posted by Richard Grimes Risen Ape r22037@yahoo.com (ffrf.org) on May 18, 2007 10:49 AMYou know what they say about wrestling with pigs.
Posted by amazed on May 18, 2007 11:50 AMAmazed,
Are you implying that Drew is muddy and smiling?
Since the money belongs to everyone, can`t we just have this "god free" item?
Posted by Sharon B. on May 19, 2007 10:13 AMSharon's druther may come true: America's motto was Latin: "E Pluribus Unum," From Many Come One, whereas, with the influx of Latinos perhaps they will be instrumental in reverting back to Latin such as: "Cogito ergo sum," I think therefore I am, even if it sounds existentialistic. Better to be an existentialist than a believer in superstitious nonsense. Me, your friendly deicide.
Posted by Richard Grimes Risen Ape r22037@yahoo.com ( ffrf.org) on May 19, 2007 10:39 AM