Israel
The nonstop subversion of our governments
Abraham Foxman
I do not think it is in the interest of Jews to be perceived as a brutal, arrogant people who feel the law and civilized behavior is for everyone else but them. If being pro-Semite means supporting the use of terror to brutalize helpless women and children in order to grab their land illegally, count me out.
Thank you, Roger,
for your useful insight. Don't forget, that the AIPAC spy trial of Rosen and Weissman is coming up, and maybe we'll learn how Israel funneled phoney information about Iraqs' weapons of mass destruction into the pentagon through confessed spy Larry Franklin. Maybe we'll get some insight into how AIPAC manipulates our elected legislature through campaign contributions, in order to subvert American foreign policy to do the bidding of Israel. Maybe this has something to do with why the United States finds itself in this quagmire of Iraq. Are Americans ready to WAKE UP? Or are we going to continue to be the "useful idiots" for the Israelis?
Being a Jew is not the same as being a Zionist
Being a Zionist is not the same as being a Jew
Being against the state of Israel is not the same as being anti-semitic
Being for the state of Israel is not the same as being pro-semitic
A state based on a single religion does harm to both statehood and the religion.
Posted by on May 8, 2007 03:00 PMWhere is the right wing echo chamber to decry this naivete?
Calling Israel "the most brutal terrorist state on the planet" ignores the fanatical hordes financed by Iran who kill civilians intentionally, instead of as "collateral damage" when legitimate terrorist targets who hide behind civilian human shields are killed by Israel.
KW, don't you want to say how Roger loves the luxury of throwing insults at Israel when he ignores the true threat of Islamofascism?
p.s. Lobbing BS conspiracy theories about how Jews control the US government is nothing but good old fashioned anti-semitism.
Posted by [Just Sayin'] Repugnants on May 8, 2007 04:20 PMWhat about the thousands killed by Hamas, or Hezbullah or the like? What about the thousands killed by siucide bombers or rocket attacks? OH WAIT I get it, thats ok as long as its only Isreali citizens being killed. Thankl you for making that point so obvious
Posted by Nick on May 8, 2007 08:40 PMTo everyone cheapshotting Roger Carpenter's Letter to the Editor, I dare you to become informed.
Foxman mentioned two college profs in his article about the one third of Americans who are concerned about Israeli's undue influence in our country. Go to Google and type in The Israel Lobby John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt.
Then type in Google, Sharon, we Jews control America. I DARE YOU TO BECOME INFORMED.
Posted by Bill on May 8, 2007 10:50 PMBefore the issue gets bogged down in accusations of anti-Semitism or the misdoings of radical Islam,could we bring a little realpolitik into the mix? Suppose the US did withdraw from Israel and the rest of the Mideast? I suggest that in very short order millions of Arab/Islamic fighters would be attacking Israel,who would just as quickly mount a massive nuclear response.How long would it be before other nuclear powers got into the fight? My thinking is that the US presence in the Mideast helps keep the situation there at least somewhat under control and given that Islam and the Judeo-Christian West have been adversaries for some fourteen centuries,we'll probably find it in our best interest to stick around awhile.We do have several dogs in this fight.I'd rather they were pit bulls.
Posted by Jimminy on May 8, 2007 10:55 PMThe "moral equivalence" that morons like Roger apply to Israel vs. Hamas, Hezbollah, al Qaida, Syria, Iran, and all those radical Muslims that want to destroy Israel, the Jews, and America for supporting Israel sickens me. I will be the first to agree that Israel, like America, gets pushed into doing things for our own survival that might not be from the Boy Scout manual. Point conceded.
However, I am of the very informed and reserched opinion that if all attacks on Israel STOPPED immediately and ALL Arab/Islamic nations that refuse to recognize Israel and want it destroyed agreed to live in peace, Israel would too and there would be no aggression against Arabs, Palis, or any Muslims anywhere.
On the other hand, if Israel unilaterally declared peace, returned the West Bank, Golan Hts, and stopped defending itself, I firmly believe that it would be attacked unmercifully by eveyone I named above within days or weeks of declaring that policy. That is the difference in the two sides of this argument. I'll stay with supporting Israel - thank you very much.
For those who don't know, Dennis Miller is a comedian who has a show called “Dennis Miller Live” on HBO. He is not Jewish.
He recently said the following about the Mideast situation:
A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Here we go:
The Palestinians want their own country.
There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word.
Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years.
Like "Wiccan", "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention
Before the Israelis won the land in the 1967 war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians".
As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians", weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation."
So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" anymore to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths, until someone points out they're being taped.
Instead, let's call them what they are…racist Jew haters: "Other Arabs Who Can't Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death."
I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN.
How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."
Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country.
Oops, just one more thing…no, they don't.
They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David, but if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living.
That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel.
They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course -- that's where the real fun is -- but mostly they want Israel.
Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel -- or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it -- for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth . . . you know that's really saying something.
It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Middle East.
Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.
Chew this around & spit it out: 500 million Arabs; 5 million Jews.
Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it.
And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals.
Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea?
Oh, that? We were just kidding.
My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers.
Imagine 500 million Jews and 5 million Arabs.
I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it.
Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves?
Of course not.
Or marshaling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab State into the sea? Nonsense.
Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible.
Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting.
No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.
Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that, with vital operations in Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of super models who've just had their drugs taken away.
However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some.
After September 11th, our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them.
Beautiful.
Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day), start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint.
If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan.
Every time the issue of Israel comes up, it becomes clear that there are still far too many people who buy into the ideas of William Pierce.
Posted by No use on May 9, 2007 08:00 AMML, quoting Dennis Miller:
"There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word."
Thanks to both for the laugh. All words are made up words. Does Dennis think that God wrote a dictionary containing the "unmade up" words? And is it true that there are actually no ipods because that is just a made up word?
Posted by Truth on May 9, 2007 08:02 AMML: "If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan."
I wish ML had put this paragraph at the first of his letter so that readers would know right off what a poor excuse he has for a brain.
Posted by Truth on May 9, 2007 08:05 AMMay 8, 03:00 PM
Unfortunately, the voice of reason will always be outshouted by the voice of fanaticism.
ML.
Thank you for providing the PC Party Line. And, I am certain the Anti-Truth League of the Zionist Propaganda Agency thanks you too.
Quick! Take cover! The flying carpets are coming! The flying carpets are coming! And the great bronze horses powered by the Djinn! Tens of millions of Arabs! They're coming to take over! The flying carpets are coming! The flying carpets are coming!
Posted by Old Grouch on May 9, 2007 08:17 AM"I wish ML had put this paragraph at the first of his letter so that readers would know right off what a poor excuse he has for a brain."
Thank you, Truth, for once again demonstrating that no one should read your posts or respond to them. I wish I was such a sophisticated individual that I could launch low blow attacks all the time and never make a point, but I guess you have to be born with that talent.
Posted by No use for a name on May 9, 2007 08:17 AMTruth: what, pray tell, would be America's reaction if we were being attacked by, say, Mexican suicide bombers every day? Are you trying to tell us that the entire population would not be screaming for the government to nuke everything south of the Rio Grande? Please enlighten us, Truth.
Posted by ML on May 9, 2007 08:19 AMNice story there, ML. Except that it is a Zionist narrative, totally detached from reality. "There are no palestinians... it's a made-up word" You need to read the United Nations resolution 194 , which was a condition for Israel's acceptance into the United Nations. Here's the text: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_194
Does it not mention the palestinians right of return, agreed to by Israel as a condition for membership into the UN? Keep in mind that the Swedish envoy, Folke Bernadotte was murdered by the Israeli Lehi terrorist organization led by Yitzak Shamir after its proposal.
Perhaps you haven't heard of UN resolution 242, adopted unanimously by the Security council, Called on Israel to give up the now 40-year illegal occupation. Here's the text:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242
By denying the indigenous people their humanity, by illegally occupying their land, by continuously torturing and tormenting these people who did nothing more that live in the area coveted by Israel, is the cause of all of the "terrorism" you mention.
You do a great job of defending Israel, though. So much so that I have to wonder where your loyalty lies? Are you one of these people who puts the well being of Israeli citizens above the well being of American citizens? There are many places on this earth that are awash in turmoil. Nowhere on earth should be more important to an American citizen than these United States.
mike h: from your own link:
Honest Reporting asserted its opposition to the idea of a Right of Return on the following grounds:
Palestinian flight from Israel was not compelled, but voluntary. As armies from seven Arab nations joined the newly established Arab state in Palestine in the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, many Arab leaders encouraged Palestinians to flee, in order to make it easier to route the Jewish state. No documentation of an Israeli plan to expel Palestinians has been exposed to date. Since the Palestinians themselves chose their status as refugees, some argue that Israel is therefore absolved of responsibility.[9]
There is no legal basis to demand repatriation of Palestinian refugees and their descendents. No international legislation, UN resolutions or agreements between Israel and the Palestinians require this.[10]
Historical legal precedent from the Middle East supports this contention. Since none of the 900,000 Jewish refugees who fled anti-Semitic violence in the Arab world were never compensated or repatriated by their former countries of residence—to no objection on the part of Arab leaders—a precedent has been set whereby it is the responsibility of the nation which accepts the refugees to assimilate them.[11] Former Israeli Foreign Minister Moshe Sharett added that this precedent extends beyond the Middle East. No effort was made to demand the return of the 900,000 Germans expelled from Czechoslovakia following World War II, nor the 2.5 million refugees uprooted by the exchange of populations between Poland and the USSR, nor the 13 million Moslems and Hindus whom India and Pakistan exchanged in 1947. On the grounds of these and other historical precedents, Sharett questioned why Israel was singled out as an exception to international law.[12]
An influx of Palestinian refugees would lead to the destruction of the state of Israel. Because a right of return would make Arabs the majority within Israel, this would essentially seal the fate of the Jewish state.[11]
And why is it, mike h, that no Arab nation has allowed these so-called Palestinians to settle in their country?
Posted by ML on May 9, 2007 08:48 AMDennis Miller for President!
Posted by KW on May 9, 2007 08:55 AMHonest Reporting, ML's source, is a propaganda website which has as its real purpose to try to shape pubic opinion rather than report facts.
"Israel is in the midst of a battle for public opinion – waged primarily via the media. To ensure Israel is represented fairly and accurately "'HonestReporting'" monitors the media, exposes cases of bias, promotes balance, and effects change through education and action."
Posted by Truth on May 9, 2007 09:36 AMDefying common sense:
ML: 'Palestinian flight from Israel was not compelled, but voluntary."
Can you imagine hundreds of thousands of people "voluntarily" leaving their homes and fleeing into refugee status?
Posted by Truth on May 9, 2007 09:43 AMRe:ML "...why Israel was singled out as an exception to internalional law" I can't speak for the Hindus or the Checkoslovaks, but I can tell you why I disagree with your thesis:For the most part, I don't care what kind of strife goes on in the rest the world. But when my tax-paid dollars goes to support some fanatical dream that disposses and abuses millions of people, earning the United States a billion enemies, now I have a right to question the efficasy of that support, and weigh the adverse effects. If Israel could stand on its' own two feet, and not have to pick my pocket, subvert my government, I couldn't care less what they do in the middle east.
Posted by mike h on May 9, 2007 09:45 AMTruth and mike h...neither one of you answered my questions to you. And you both should re-read Michael's post at 7:00AM...he nails it.
Posted by ML on May 9, 2007 10:12 AMML you didn't answer mine, either...Are you one of these people who puts the well being of Israeli citizens above the well being of American citizens?
Posted by mike h on May 9, 2007 10:28 AMNo, I'm not, but I recognize an injustice being perpetuated in the opinion of many people like you re: Israel.
Your turn now, mike h...
Why shouldn't the Rocky Mountain News support our special relationship with Israel? It's the only democracy in the Middle East and shares common values and beliefs with the vast majority of Americans. According to a recent survey more than 67% of Americans support Israel.
As for political Lobby’s, I don't understand why there's a problem for those who support Israel's right to exist to lobby for favorable policy in the Congress. While I don't agree with many political Lobbyists neither do I suggest they be eliminated. The right to petition Congress is enshrined in our Constitution and just because you disagree does not mean people's rights should be curtailed. If you disagree, petition Congress...if your position has merit and support of the people, expect Congress to move in your direction.
As for the “brutality” of Israel or their “illegal occupation” of Palestinian land…come off it!!! Israel is held to the highest (double) standard when it comes to treatment of the Arabs living in Israel, the Palestinian Arabs in the DISPUTED territories, and its conduct of military operations against terrorists and armed militias bent on Israel’s destruction. That an American citizen who benefits from all of the freedoms we enjoy would side with a rabble of medieval, misogynistic, head-chopping thugs is beyond contempt.
Israel, including Judea and Samaria (what the Jordanians named the West Bank during their occupation of the area), is the home of the Jewish people from time immemorial. Despite expulsions, pogroms, occupations, and the Holocaust, Jews have always lived in Israel, have always yearned to return to Israel, and have made modern Israel into the most vibrant, pluralistic, and successful state in the Middle East. Further, the Jews are the only people EVER to have had a sovereign nation in this land.
If you want to know why there is a rise in anti-Semitism, you need only look across any of Israel’s borders to see a failed state, a lack of opportunity for the people living there, a concomitant rise in radical Islamism, and a people who blame the region’s only flourishing democracy for all of its own problems.
Finally, accusing Israel and Jews of controlling government policy, financial markets, the media, or of being the route cause of the world’s or any particular region’ problems is a part of the Blood Libels begun in the 11th century and perfected by the Nazis. It’s anti-Semitism and its most vile and base level and anyone who perpetuates these canards is deserving of the venom and ridicule heaped on them by lovers of freedom and justice.
The post made at 11:16AM is mine. Comments, Questions and Complaints can be directed to MMW303
Posted by mmw303 on May 9, 2007 11:18 AMWell said, mmw303. Your post should be required reading for all of the people like mike h and Truth who are too blind to see the truth.
Posted by ML on May 9, 2007 11:34 AMIn an un-signed post Posted by on May 8, 2007 03:00 PM, a writer submitted the following:
Being a Zionist is not the same as being a Jew
Being against the state of Israel is not the same as being anti-Semitic
Being for the state of Israel is not the same as being pro-Semitic
A state based on a single religion does harm to both statehood and the religion.>> End of quote.
The writer could not be more wrong. Being a Jew IS the same as being a Zionist unless that person has no idea about what it means to be a Jew. Between the time the Second Temple was destroyed in 70CE and the formation of the modern State of Israel, Jews have always desired to inhabit the land, rebuild the Temple, and the return of the kingship of the house of David. One needs only look at the closing lines in the Passover Seder (the most celebrated Jewish holiday) where Jews say the words “Next Year in Jerusalem”.
Being against Israel is clearly anti-Semitic. You may disagree with government policy, but to be against the state of Israel, the holy land of the Jewish people is very clearly to advocate for the destruction of the Jews.
Finally, if “a state based on a single religion does harm to both statehood and the religion”, why doesn’t this person raise a hue and cry against the 22 Islamic states in the Middle East and North Africa where no other religion is allowed (unlike Israel where all regions are respected and granted freedom of worship)? Or the Muslim states of South Asia? Or India and Pakistan which were partitioned to make one state for Hindus and one state for Moslems? With the exception of Israel, all of these states are harmed by the single religion (Moslem) dogma under which they operate. Israel on the other hand despite its Jewish character, grants complete freedom to ALL religions and its government is almost completely secular!
MMW303
Posted by mmw303 on May 9, 2007 11:37 AMI think this is a fitting post...it is the lyrics to Bob Dylan's (a Jew) song: Neighborhood bully, 1983 from the album "Infidels"
Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man,
His enemies say he's on their land.
They got him outnumbered about a million to one,
He got no place to escape to, no place to run.
He's the neighborhood bully.
The neighborhood bully just lives to survive,
He's criticized and condemned for being alive.
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin,
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in.
He's the neighborhood bully.
The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land,
He's wandered the earth an exiled man.
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn,
He's always on trial for just being born.
He's the neighborhood bully.
Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized,
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize.
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad.
The bombs were meant for him.
He was supposed to feel bad.
He's the neighborhood bully.
Well, the chances are against it and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him,
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac.
He's the neighborhood bully.
He got no allies to really speak of.
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love.
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side.
He's the neighborhood bully.
Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace,
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease.
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly.
To hurt one they would weep.
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep.
He's the neighborhood bully.
Every empire that's enslaved him is gone,
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon.
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand,
In bed with nobody, under no one's command.
He's the neighborhood bully.
Now his holiest books have been trampled upon,
No contract he signed was worth what it was written on.
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth,
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health.
He's the neighborhood bully.
What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothin', they say.
He just likes to cause war.
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed,
They wait for this bully like a dog waits to feed.
He's the neighborhood bully.
What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers?
Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill,
Running out the clock, time standing still,
Neighborhood bully.
Hmmm, no snappy comebacks from mike h or Truth? Still waiting on answers to my questions...
Posted by ML on May 9, 2007 02:29 PMStayin' alive, stayin' alive says the song. I think Israel is just trying to stay alive.
Posted by Richard Grimes(Risen Ape) r22037@yahoo.com on May 9, 2007 04:58 PMThere's an interesting text available that deals with the myth that that area of the Mediterranian litoral currently being discussed is some kind of "always", or "perpetual" , dwelling place, or "homeland" for the Jews. Written by two Jewish scholoars, an archeologist and an historian, one of whom teaches at Tel Aviv University, it can hardly be accused of an "anti-semitic" bias - or whatever be the slogan, or buzzword(s), used to dismiss anything that conflicts with Zionist propaganda this week.
Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman:
"The Bible Unearthed", The Free Press, a Division of Simon and Shuster, New York, NY,, copyright 2001.
As with any other scholarly work, it won't have any influence on, or change anything in, or with, those who know all about it all ready; nor will it open those minds that are made up, so just don't bother them with facts. But, for those who would like to at least try to get away from the "myths as absolutes" approach, I believe it would make a good read.
Posted by Old Grouch on May 9, 2007 07:21 PMOld Grouch 8:17
So besides you being blind to the very real threat of radical Islam you are also an anti-semite?
Go figure.
Posted by [Snarky] GET REAL on May 10, 2007 12:35 PM