Time has come for universal vouchers
Congratulations to the Rocky Mountain News on its thorough and thoughtful exposé, “Leaving to Learn.”
Denver Public Schools officials’ mea culpas and desires for radical reform is 30-plus years late and a dollar short (though billions are already down the drain).
Some things should stay as is, others should be reformed, and the Denver Public Schools from top down should be chloroformed.
More money, incremental reforms even radical reforms in the face of tenure (which can cost $150,000 just to get rid of deadwood) isn’t going to cut it. (And paying a $1,179-per-student bounty/bribe for a kid who comes back from a charter or a private school is proof positive of the abject failure of the Denver Public Schools model.)
No, mea culpas, more money, so-called “radical reform” ... this is a recipe for continued educational Ebola, truly the enemy within.
Like it or not, it is time for universal vouchers.
Jim Schwartz, Centennial
P.S. — In reading Denver Classroom Teachers Association President Kim Ursetta’s defense of the Denver Public Schools (“Let’s work together for the sake of children,” April 27), it is apparent to me she is a graduate of Denver Public Schools. How else can one explain her deflecting, spinning, sanitizing and euphemizing the abject and repeated failures of this school system?
vouchers are the worse thing the dcta or nea or cea and think of happening to them. Choice in how your child is educated, no way. the unions will fight this to protect their monopoly on education their way. dcta is a joke and can always come up with a good line when their feet are to the fire, just to make people feel good. they have got worse in the last 20 years instead of better.
Any one remember getting a paper back from a teacher with big red circles around mis spelled words? they dont do that today but let the child spell how they think it should be. yep the dcta should be proud they get pay checks
I agree! Adams county district 50 is pulling this same crap but of course it's all overshadowed by DPS right now. They closed schools and gave the teachers all a huge raise, $40,000 starting salary. This is right after they passed their 98 million dollar bond.
It's sad there's nothing we can do except pull our kids out.
I'll agree with public money for private schools on one condition:
Every private school that wants to take that money has to follow the same basic rules as public schools:
1) You have to take everybody equally. You can't exclude troublemakers, handicapped students, learning disabled students, etc.
2) You have to follow all the same regulations regarding teacher accreditation, etc, etc.
They can teach what they want, but they should have to follow all the same buearacratic stuff public schools do.
Otherwise you're comparing apples and oranges.
Posted by Tim on May 14, 2007 08:01 AMHell yes let's have vouchers!! Then I can start a school, only accept those students that I want--and no way would I let in any "troublemakers"--and by charging a lot of money per kid, make a killing! And I could do it without any need for accreditation!! Then I can just keep the kids coming in, not have to worry about meeting any educational standards, and laugh all the way to the bank!! Great idea!
Or we could just outsource it India or China.
Nimrods.
Posted by shaupeen on May 14, 2007 08:13 AMI agree that "troublemakers" do bring down the public education in a way that private and even choice schools do not need to deal with. My question to all however, is what do you do with the "troublemakers"? How much are you willing to spend to have them educated? At what sacrifice?
Posted by bjs on May 14, 2007 09:24 AMBJS...dunno...those are GREAT questions, perhaps for a different discussion - but they're not what I was getting at.
IF public schools have to deal with (by rule or regulation) certain students that require a larger percentage of school resources, then private schools should also if they want public money. They shouldn't get to cherry pick the easiest to teach, then crow about higher test scores.
If private schools REALLY want to compete, then let 'em...just make sure the playing field is level.
Posted by Tim on May 14, 2007 10:26 AMgee there are private schools that only take special needs students and tend to their needs and not put them in a classroom with 'normal' students. seems the public schools took that away.
private schools dont put up with the disruptive student they deal with it and let them know what is expected of them. mom and dad also git involved becasue they are spending their money too.
stop using the unions talking points of its not equall and they get to pick and choose. Private will take those who come to the door. a lot dont because it costs money out of mom and dad's pocket.
Keith: You have been labeled as follows by the commentator. You need to clean up your act. We do not want to lose you. I will remain anonymous.
The insufferable Keith (can he be more than 14 years old?) has included you among the commenters he accuses of being prostitutes -- as long as he keeps his language clean, I'm leaving those comments, but if you think it is worth objecting to, let me know.
Tim,
You said:
"1) You have to take everybody equally. You can't exclude troublemakers, handicapped students, learning disabled students, etc.
2) You have to follow all the same regulations regarding teacher accreditation, etc, etc."
In other words, the schools must operate like public schools.
Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of offering parents school choice?
Why do you care about following the same regulations and teacher accreditations as public schools?
Let each school decide how best to educate the students and let the parents be the judge of the school's performance.
Posted by John II on May 14, 2007 03:36 PMSince I'm gay and will never have childred, I'd like to pay LESS taxes than the guy down the street with 10 kids and more incone.
SOCIALISTS!
Posted by Rick on May 14, 2007 03:50 PMJohn II wrote:
"In other words, the schools must operate like public schools.
Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of offering parents school choice?"
Nah. You can teach (within wide limits) what you want. Teach 'em the earth is only 4000 years old, or whatever. I'd argue for wide latitude here.
I thought I explained why I want them to follow the same regulations pretty well, but I'll try again: If private schools want to take public money and, essentially, compete with public schools, the playing field should be level. It's that simple.
Why should a private company (in any industry) be able to take public dollars and NOT have to follow the same regulations their competitors do?
That makes no sense.
Posted by Tim on May 14, 2007 04:06 PMTim,
But, I thought the whole point of offering school choice is not to level the playing field, but raise raise it. I know, bad analogy.
I'm not sure what you mean by "the playing field should be level."
You seem to be worried that public schools won't be able to compete with private schools. But, isn't that the whole point? If private schools can do a better job, why not do away with the public schools altogether and let the private schools compete for public money?
Hey John II thanks for the civilized discussion... :-)
All those rules and regulations are a large part of what makes public schools not so effective. I'm not saying we should get rid of any or all of them (special needs kids need education SOMEplace), and that's an argument for another day in any regard.
But if you allow private schools to cherry pick the easiest students and STILL get public dollars, then it isn't a level playing field. Private schools may very well have higher scores in that case.
Conversely, if you allowed public schools the ability to simply educate just the students they found convenient, I'm sure their scores would be higher as well.
Which might be fine unless your kid was one of the inconvenient ones.
Posted by Tim on May 14, 2007 04:41 PMTim,
You said:
"But if you allow private schools to cherry pick the easiest students and STILL get public dollars, then it isn't a level playing field."
Some schools may go that route. There's only so many exceptional students to "cherry pick".
What about all those less than exceptional students out there? Don't you think private schools will want their vouchers too?
I see schools eventually being evaluated like colleges; some colleges will be more desirable than others but there's plenty of colleges for everyone. Some schools will be known for highly exceptional students, other schools...not so much.
But, in the end, I think the worst private school will probably be similar to our public schools now. And all those exceptional students stuck in public schools today will now have an opportunity to attend a private school tomorrow.
It would be interesting to see what the situation would be if the government had to operate only the small number of schools that are now private, and the private school industry had to operate the vast number of schools that today are public schools. It would be interesting to see what the situation would be if the public schools had to teach only the quality of students you find in the private schools and the private schools had to teach the rest. You can be sure that if vouchers become commonplace, the private school field will be quickly crowded and many in that crowd will have the same mindset as the private contractors in Iraq. The lack of accountability of those Iraqi contractors who are skimming billions of dollars of tax money will be repeated many times if private schools proliferate because of vouchers. When forgoing school improvements makes money for the administrators, and the schools are much less accountable than public schools, that is a recipe for the defrauders to come arunning. The marketing of schools will become big business; you can judge how helpful that will be by the commericals you now see on TV.
Posted by Truth on May 15, 2007 07:24 AMJohn II: "What about all those less than exceptional students out there? Don't you think private schools will want their vouchers too?"
Only if it's cost effective. If a child with special needs (of any kind) costs more in resources than the voucher brings in, there's no guarantee they'll take that student.
That's the problem, in a nutshell.
Posted by Tim on May 15, 2007 08:41 AMTim,
Why wouldn't it be cost effective? If a student has $5000 that he can only spend on education, I'm sure someone will be willing to take that money. For $5k, I'll teach your kid. I'm sure the private tutor business will boom when school vouchers become standard.
As for "special needs", I'm sure we can give bigger vouchers for the handicapped or mentally disabled.
Your problem in a nutshell is really not a problem.
Posted by John II on May 15, 2007 09:28 AMJohn II: "I'm sure the private tutor business will boom when school vouchers become standard."
John II is sure right about that. If the government starts giving vouchers for private tutoring, you will see all kinds of people flocking to that teat. Some of them will be qualified. Others won't, but very people will ever know about that. If you think accountability is bad now, you ain't seen nothing yet. The slick marketers will have no trouble explaining that it is someone else's fault the kid didn't do so well. The tutoring industry will be about marketing, not about education.
Posted by Truth on May 15, 2007 01:32 PMTruth,
"The tutoring industry will be about marketing, not about education."
How long do you think a tutoring company will stay in business if it does not produce decent results?
Posted by John II on May 15, 2007 01:52 PMThe power of marketing and advertising in America is legend. It has quite often proven itself to be a more powerful than common sense. If decent results were sufficient to control the marketplace, we would have no Madison Ave. and there would be no need for deceptive advertising laws, consumer protection laws and fraud laws. Decent results have never been a sufficient guard against the unscrupulous.
Posted by Truth on May 16, 2007 07:22 AMTruth,
You didn't answer my question.
I never claimed "decent results were enough to control the marketplace."
The best tutoring company in the country will still need to advertise so more people can find out about it's services. I just don't see marketing as a key issue to school vouchers. Parents will find out very quickly how effective private schools and tutors have been.
Posted by John II on May 16, 2007 08:00 AM