Health insurance
Why can a small nation in
Because part of that "wealth" you mention is made by profiteers gaming the health care industry for their own personal benefit. As long as capitalists can promote personal profit over the common welfare of the country, we'll have a system where "the best doctors in the world" are out of reach for all but the "richest people in the world."
Soon we'll see posts from conservatives against socialized medicine as some sort of evil with a claim that the government can't do as good a job as the private sector. It's all very predictable. What is it they are "conserving"?
Their profits.
And certainly we'll see name calling by the lowbrow amoungst them who can't form a reasonable argument. Right Fish?
Posted by Todd on June 27, 2007 02:53 PM"Soon we'll see posts from conservatives against socialized medicine as some sort of evil with a claim that the government can't do as good a job as the private sector. It's all very predictable."
What's wrong with being predictable? Are we supposed to surprise you with new reasons of why we dislike socialized medicine every time the issue comes up? You certainly haven't surprised me with your comment.
Costa Rica has a population of just 4.43 million people compared to 300 million in America. They don't even have a military.
Let's compare America to a country of similar population size, diversity and freedom.
Posted by John II on June 27, 2007 03:57 PMTodd really needs to go to England for awhile and see what he thinks of socialized medicine after that. I know people who have to live it and it certainly isn't what it's cracked up to be. Not to mention it is bankrupting the country. For the life of me I don't understand why people want to give government more control of our lives. Must be the almighty dollar. Do you really think we won't pay for helathcare in some respect??? Give me a break.
Todd must be spending a lot of time watching MSNBC to believe more government is a better life.
Posted by [Jim in Erie] on June 27, 2007 04:27 PMJohn II,
"Let's compare America to a country of similar population size, diversity and freedom."
France has the best system. Universal Care with an option for private insurance if you can afford it.
Posted by Charles B on June 27, 2007 04:32 PMTo anon 4:27
So who do you know in America that has to live with profitized medicine, those who have insurance with claims that were denied, those stuck in undesirable jobs because a family member has pre-existing conditions or those who have gone bankrupt paying five time the cost Insurance companies pay for services that were not covered by insurance? Do they agree with you that it's "all that it's cracked up to be"?
Posted by Todd on June 27, 2007 05:14 PMCharles B.,
What is the population of France? What is unemployment rate in France?
Posted by John II on June 27, 2007 05:49 PM"France has the best system. Universal Care with an option for private insurance if you can afford it."
I have a question, Charles B. This is not a setup question, I honestly don't know the answer: If a French citizen opts for private insurance, does he still have to pay taxes for universal health care for other people?
Posted by John II on June 27, 2007 06:03 PM"I know this guy who lives there and ......". Good Lord, you have find such stories in any country, most definitely including the United States. It proves only that the writer's brain is not very wide.
Posted by Truth on June 27, 2007 06:27 PMtodd get off your knees and wake up to life. you may have to really pay for your deeds one day. I sure wont pay a cent for you no matter what. you keep saying its always better so why do you stay here? take your family and move to canada, they have your free socailized medicine, and they you can try to get a job there that you would be happy with. yeah a toilet cleaner with out gloves.
have a wonderful night and dont let mommy know you are still up
Posted by [fish] on June 27, 2007 07:13 PMMaybe Todd can give us just ONE proven example of how Gov't can DO ANYTHING better than the private sector.
JUST ONE
Truth-
What, do you live in a cave?
Socialized health care has never worked due to obvious inefficiencies.
I had the misfortune to experience it FIRST HAND while living in Canada.
Most Canucks that cant wait UP TO A YEAR to have surgery OR EVEN SEE A DOCTOR, routinely head south to the states for INSTANT AND FAR SUPIEROR CARE.
Come on now, ask yourself honestly, if you were really sick, where would you go for treatment?
If Gov't controlled health care is the answer,
why do most flee to privatized care?
John II-
Good points on your initial post and a predictable non response from Charles B. on your follow up legit question.
Typical.
John II,
"If a French citizen opts for private insurance, does he still have to pay taxes for universal health care for other people?"
Of course! And they're happy to. They have the best health care in the world and they realize it's in their self-interest (which I know is your primary motivation) to have a population with the bare necessities of health-care. If you don't understand why that is, then I don't think you've thought about the subject with much depth. It's directly related to your question as to why I don't think your "every state for itself" strategy would work for health-care.
Posted by Charles B on June 27, 2007 08:54 PMJohn II,
"What is the population of France? What is unemployment rate in France?"
Why don't you research it yourself? I don't have time to hold your hand.
Posted by Charles B on June 27, 2007 08:56 PMA prostrate Get Real said:
"Good points on your initial post and a predictable non response from Charles B. on your follow up legit question."
Get Real, you're a sycophantic joke.
I don't sit around all day and troll these boards. I get my couple minutes in here and there and If I don't answer a question either a) not worthy of an answer or b) I don't have time.
Posted by Charles B on June 27, 2007 09:01 PMCharles-
Wow,
I thought we addressed your "hate posting while drinking" problem months ago.
Off the wagon again are we?
Posted by Get Real on June 27, 2007 09:51 PMAnybody here have Kaiser? Does anyone like it? I think of universal health care ae Kaiser only worse. If that is possible. I have to wait until mid July to even schedule an appointment for September for a surgery evaluation. Is that what people want? Even that costs me 600.00 a month.
Posted by kg on June 27, 2007 10:03 PMI have Kaiser and we pay a fortune to see any doctor and when we were sent to the ER by three of their doctors we got a call that they were evaluationg whether or not it qualifed as an emergency! Well they amputated half of my left foot the next day. Day after that the doctor ordered no weight on the foot and the only thing Kaiser would allow was a pair of crutches. Doctor had been specific about what was needed. Disallowed hy Kaiser.
You bet government run health care would be even worse. I might still be waiting with a severe heart condition and a massive infection because it wasn't life threatening YET!
When I drove a cab I often took people to the ski areas. There were several times when Canadians would go to the expense to fly back here for orthopedic treatment because they wouldn't get it in Canada in time for it to do any good. Of course they were richer than the average person so I guess the pro-socialism posters here would think that unfair. How many times does it have to be said that people will not treat any government service as anything but free and will waste it until it is rationed or cut back. Then everyone would suffer because some people didn't like the idea of taking responsibility for their own healthcare. We are begging the company my husband works for for a MSA. A bit more cost but so much better in the long run.
Now wait for them to call ME elite! We barely can afford an extra gallon of milk a wek..
Posted by momma y on June 27, 2007 10:31 PMSocialized medicine is concerned about the health of the society.
Capitalized medicine is concerned about the health of money.
Health insurance companies are in it for the profit.
Conservatives on this post love to present anecdotal evidence to prove how bad the health care systems of other countries are compared to ours. They conveniently ignore the fact that every story they present has happened to Americans with our health care system. There are Americans going to Canada for healthcare and prescription drugs. There are Americans going to India for surgery because the quality is the same and the cost is 10 times less. There are Americans waiting in lines and denied service and yada yada yada.
Bottom line is conservatives can't stand paying for the welfare of some stranger. They are selfish, hate-filled and lonely people. They deserve our pity.
Posted by Todd on June 27, 2007 11:01 PM"Maybe Todd can give us just ONE proven example of how Gov't can DO ANYTHING better than the private sector."
Sure, it's the one I've been giving all along. Medicare has 3% administrative overhead. HMO's have 25-30% administrative overhead. The difference is the profit motive.
Posted by Todd on June 27, 2007 11:03 PMIf socialized medicine is such a failure, then why do countries with socialized medicine spend 1/2 as much per person, yet have better outcomes across the board? Something doesn't add up...
Posted by Kyle on June 27, 2007 11:51 PMYeah, we're elite here. My family's total income is less than 32K a year before taxes.
How about factoring in unnecessary medical tests ordered to cover a doctor/hospital from lawsuits.
You see any of those slimy amublance chasing ads begging for cerebral palsy victims to sign on and sue? Doesn't happen in socialized medicine.
Ever hear of a person being given an emergency appointment that took 8 months? Happened here under the present model of government run health care: VA care for disabled vets.
Problem is that we need more personal responsibility not more government. It was my husband's emergency and he is still waiting for treatment.
You get what you pay for.
Give the tax breaks for health care to the individuals and make MSAs available to all. Of course I don't doubt that the pro-socialized, government controlled medicine cheerleaders disapprove of the Wal-Mart clinics where prices are posted that are less or equal to most insurance co-pays (which they take) that, when combined with 4 dollar prescriptions, make health care affordable. Too much capitalism going on here? Capitalism works and the stories of limited, delayed and denied health care in other countries are real even when those cheerleaders don't want to listen. Without the additional burden of illegal poachers using our healthcare system for free and the awesome burden of insurance to protect doctors and others from legal predators our system would be cheaper too. Find a country that has those hadicaps before YOU make comparisons.
momma y
you give examples of failures in the capitalized system and then claim its better than the socialized system. That doesn't compute.
"When the cheerleaders don't want to listen" ???? It is you that's not listening.
"Illegal Poachers using our healthcare system for free" What depravity you must feel to put the failure of the for-profit delivery system on the backs of undocumented workers.
And is typical, the only solution to every problem for a conservative is "tax breaks".
Posted by Todd on June 28, 2007 07:28 AMTodd and others who support socialized medicine,
Apparently those who are pro-government believe that no claims would be denied, no problems getting coverage for pre-existing conditions or that we would not have to pay for services not covered by socialized medicine. Guess again. Why is it then that Canadians get impatient waiting for their terrific gov’t run services to either kick in or be denied and come to America to get treated right away?
In an earlier post, Todd, you whined that there might be some name calling, but then go on in later post to start using your own form of name calling. Well, here's a little name calling - hypocrite!
"Undocumented workers?" No, many of them have documents, false documents.
I realize this is off the topic, but what a sham calling them "undocumented workers" rather than what they really are - illegal aliens.
Before you get your panties in a bundle over that term, let me define it for you:
Illegal - not according to or authorized by law, not sanctioned by official rules.
Alien - belonging to or relating to another person, place or thing, a person of another family, race or nation, a foreign-born resident who has not been naturalized and is still a subject or citizen of a foreign country, foreign-born citizen.
Let’s call a spade a spade, shall we?
Sorry for the digression on my part, everyone. I’m really sick and tired of the political correctness that is contributing to the death of this nation.
Todd,
I look at the real problem which is the disconnect between the customer (patient) and the provider. When costs are invisible people don't treat the situation as anything they can deal with.
I have personal experience where I watched illegal immigrants go to the ER for sore throats, sprained writst or ankles and many other ailments that can be treated in neighborhood clinics. They preferred the ER because it was FREE. I also saw one young man who took a cab to and from work because he was waiting to have enough money to buy insurance on his car parked in front of his house. (back when you could get plates without proof of insurance) He was very happy and showed me his green card while talking about his two jobs. I'll campaign for more like this man to enter. Yes, I am prejudiced against those who sponge off of the system no matter who they are. I am even angrier when I see people laughing in the ER joking about whose name they used this time. Yep, I speak enough Spanish to understand.
The failures I point out include a very clear example of what government controlled health care IS not some cloud dream of a maybe. You can find many more such stories just go to the waiting rooms at VA.
Perhaps it would be easier if I put it this way:
I prefer to be an adult and take care of myself. I am raising a child with the same attitudes. We need more adults taking responsibility for themselves and fewer children throwing tantrums because they want something someone eise has worked for and earned but they want it given to them.
Todd you can complain all you want but your solution doesn't stand up to a real comparison with apples to apples instead of grapes to watermelons which you claim is fair because both are green.
Putting the
Posted by momma y on June 28, 2007 12:26 PMWhen the choice is government control versus profiteer control, I'll take the government.
That is, a government filled with competetant progressives who have the good of the nation at heart, not the politically incorrect conservatives that HATE this country and the principles it is founded on (read the constitution).
Posted by Todd on June 28, 2007 01:12 PMChristina -- (Post of 9:25 AM)
Well said!! Take the illegals (without documents, or with false documents) our of health infrastructure and costs would drop substantially.
A former associate of mine introduced me to one his foremen a few months back. He made the introduction in order to "show me" how well he spoke English and how sharp he was intellectually (trying to get me to accept using illegal aliens). Both points were well substantiated.
However, while having lunch with this gentleman he told me how he and his wife have eight (8) American born children. When I commented that his insurance company must love them, he said that he doesn't have insurance (most illegals are not offered health benefits). He admitted further that he simply pays a "couple of hundred dollars'" for "new" papers and goes to the same hospital repeatedly. Prenatal care is provided at a "free clinic". The hospital is stiffed delivery and related costs as it was always done under a "new" name.
The health infrastructure costs in the country are phenomenal. In the case of this family alone you are probably looking at in excess of $50K. And that's without going into ongoing health maintenance or emergency room visits.
And no, the experience didn't convince me that illegal labor was beneficial to our economy.
Posted by David R. Forward, darformail@gmail.com on June 28, 2007 01:22 PMFound this in my research on the Canadian system (from "Canada's Single Payer Health Care System - It's Worth a Look"
Bruce Robinson)
"...it takes more people to administer Blue Cross Blue Shield of Massachusetts that it does to administer the entire health care system of Canada. Before Canada implemented their national health program, their health costs were the same portion of their economy as in the U.S. After they implemented their program, their costs stabilized at 9% while U.S. costs have increased to 14%. They spend one tenth of what U.S. health care providers spend on overhead. "
[As a courtesy to other readers, please use your screen name consistently - HM]
How about factoring in unnecessary medical tests ordered to cover a doctor/hospital from lawsuits.
You see any of those slimy amublance chasing ads begging for cerebral palsy victims to sign on
Posted by momma y on June 28, 2007 04:42 AM
If lawsuits are such a problem why have laws intended to prevent malpractice lawsuits failed to reduce medical insurance rates
Posted by [Louis] on June 28, 2007 02:26 PMJohnII said ” Costa Rica has a population of just 4.43 million people compared to 300 million in America. “
That doesn’t compute. A bigger population should mean bigger economies of scale, bigger funding pool, and better economy and per-capita earning according to standard capitalistic theory. So the US should therefore have the cheapest and best healthcare in the world.
”They don't even have a military.”
hmmm.. so that’s interesting.
Maybe instead of putting a few billion into an ABM system that doesn’t work, nukes that we don’t need, and various other big-ticket military toys, we could, um , put that into healthcare?
Nah.
Mr.Forward said ” When I commented that his insurance company must love them, he said that he doesn't have insurance (most illegals are not offered health benefits).”
Not offered health benefits eh?
So if the employer actually paid better wages, deducted taxes, and paid health benefits then healthcare might cost less do you think?
Nah.
What we need to do is bring in some illegal doctors to let market forces lower the prices.
I think that the illegal immigrant David Forward described in his post should be prosecuted. However, I may be old fashioned but I don't think the evidence of what he did should be used to convict other illegal immigrants who didn't do that. It's amazing how small brained people mention one person and think somehow that they have made a case against millions of people.
Posted by Truth on June 28, 2007 10:02 PMLaws against malpractice were intended to protect the patients not enrich lawyers. Lose the punitive damages or give them to the state for healthcare and watch the lawsuits drop. Yes, slimeball attorneys are out there trolling for clients or are you lucky enought to not watch much TV? Loser pays court and attorney costs would also give patients a fair shot without the slimeys.
Laws have been perverted and changing the kegak system is the only thing we can do.
AS for the medical system we are working with sick people and sick people sometimes don't get well. Despite all our high hopes my survial chance for making it to the end of the year is at about 20% and if I die during surgery my husband will get a phone call asking him to let lawyer Slimey Burger Boy investigate it. He already knows what to do and I don't have to see it to enjoy the thought.
If I could do one thing for Colorado health care I would add a few mandates to the insurance and make it easier for people to have Medical Savings Accounts. I would also like it if all medical care providers, including hospitals had to post the costs of proceedures, supplies etc or give a list of them to each patient at the beginning. Might wake up a few people. In this or another thread I mentioned that in the hospital they would not let me use oral meds for diabetes. I had my own bottle so all the nurse had to do was watch me take them. They then insisted on my getting insulin which is another party tale.
Incontinent Facts: France is 80% the Land size of the state of Texas with a population of 60 million, 20% of the USA. France also had an unemployment rate of 10%, and real growth of 1.6%. In America the unemployment rate is half that and the growth rate is twice that. According to some on here, France has the best health care in the world. Now lets recall just a few yrs ago, the summer of 2003. According to Reuters news, “About 15,000 people died in France due to the heat in 2003.” That would be the equivalent of 75,000 in this country. How is it that the best health care system in the world could not care for 15,000 people that needed nothing more than a prescription for an air conditioner?
Posted by tom on June 29, 2007 08:47 AMTom, what does dying of heatstroke whilst sitting in one's home have to do with healthcare quality?
It says a lot about the French not being prepared for hot weather and perhaps about social care of the elderly, but how does that equate to a lack of quality or service in hospitals or by practitioners?