President Bush & Iraq war
This letter has not been edited.
As I understand you, it is perfectly acceptable to destroy human life in the embryo, but it is unacceptable to give one's life for his country. If that is your point, I think you are missing the facts.
Posted by Brian Stuckey on June 29, 2007 04:00 PMBrian "Steno" Stuckey said:
"As I understand you, it is perfectly acceptable to destroy human life in the embryo, but it is unacceptable to give one's life for his country. If that is your point, I think you are missing the facts."
The fact you are missing is that our soldiers aren't the only ones being killed in the Iraq war.
But I think I can safely assume that you could care less about the death of innocent people unless they are Americans.
It takes a sociopath to be a sociopath's apologist I suppose.
Posted by Charles B on June 29, 2007 05:08 PMI agree with you..........BRIAN. I cannot understand how people can even think about making such a comparison. One is a risk of voluntary service and is not even a guaranteed outcome, and the other is completely involuntary of the life it affects and the killing is surely guaranteed.
Are there not other ways to collect the needed cells besides using dead embryos?
Posted by TEW on June 29, 2007 05:22 PM"The fact you are missing is that our soldiers aren't the only ones being killed in the Iraq war."
Having military people in my family, I know soldiers do not set out to kill the innocent. They try to avoid that at all costs.
But I think I can safely assume that you could care less about the death of innocent people unless they are Americans."
Please don't assume anything, CB. You are wrong.
Posted by TEW on June 29, 2007 05:36 PMOf course Chas B is wrong, he is a pathetic little man.
Posted by Colin uber lib J. appeaser. Sanchez on June 29, 2007 07:50 PM"Having military people in my family, I know soldiers do not set out to kill the innocent. They try to avoid that at all costs."
You slay your straw man because your argument nonexistant. I did not say that soldiers set out to kill innocent people. The civilian leadership that chose this war is to blame along with people like you and Steno Stuckey who support them in every immoral and corrupt move they make. How many tens of thousands of Iraqi's need to die before your psychological wounds from 9-11 heal?
"Please don't assume anything, CB. You are wrong."
Are you speaking for Steno Stuckey now? Am I up against Steno Stuckey in Stereo?
Posted by Charles B on June 29, 2007 08:29 PMUnfortunately Charles, you are getting attacked in stereo...That's the way it is done...from swft-boating people who speak out against the administration to outing a CIA agent to shut her husband up.
On this issue, the threat is so huge to those who want to believe that a blastocyst is a living, breathing human life though there is no brain, nervous system or any other part that could be considered anything other than a mammalian multi-celled pre-embryo...but remember, if we make those 4 to 6 celled blastocysts human, we can control the life of the woman who may be carrying them and control the doctors who created them and control the people who want to use them instead of throwing them into some hazmat dump...It IS about control.
REMEMBER Bush is all about control...even to the point where he has manipulated legis;ation allowing that he ca declare Marshall Law if he feels threatened in the least.
Unfortunately these people who see Bush as some white knight carrying the sword for the Christ are unable to see that the War in Iraq is not a Religious Crusade but a planned destruction of a people and their culture...It is not an attempt to have a democratic neighbor but a planned imperialistic attempt to take control of a region and threaten the neighborhood like a gang moving in on someone's turf. We are the INSURGENCY to the CITIZENS OF THAT COUNTRY.
Unfortunately Charles, you are getting attacked in stereo...That's the way it is done...from swft-boating people who speak out against the administration to outing a CIA agent to shut her husband up.
On this issue, the threat is so huge to those who want to believe that a blastocyst is a living, breathing human life though there is no brain, nervous system or any other part that could be considered anything other than a mammalian multi-celled pre-embryo...but remember, if we make those 4 to 6 celled blastocysts human, we can control the life of the woman who may be carrying them and control the doctors who created them and control the people who want to use them instead of throwing them into some hazmat dump...It IS about control.
REMEMBER Bush is all about control...even to the point where he has manipulated legis;ation allowing that he ca declare Marshall Law if he feels threatened in the least.
Unfortunately these people who see Bush as some white knight carrying the sword for the Christ are unable to see that the War in Iraq is not a Religious Crusade but a planned destruction of a people and their culture...It is not an attempt to have a democratic neighbor but a planned imperialistic attempt to take control of a region and threaten the neighborhood like a gang moving in on someone's turf. We are the INSURGENCY to the CITIZENS OF THAT COUNTRY.
Yes, we Americans are such heroes, aren't we? We've saved the Iraqi people from themselves, amd now they are fleeing their country so their children can live....and not see the daily terrors in a country about the size of Kentucky...boy are we ever heroes....
and George Bush and Cheney are such saints, such hypocritical saints, whose hands are clean from this entire charade.
Grow up boys, the world is tired of your excuses to exploit for our private gain...and I am really sick of the sanctimonious bull about stem cells and embryos...if life was SO precious you would not be so quick to kill innocent people....in the name of terror or any other name.
"An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." Gandhi
Are you speaking for Steno Stuckey now? Am I up against Steno Stuckey in Stereo?
No, CB, I'm not speaking for Brian Stuckey. I spoke for myself. But I've read enough of these posts to the editor to know that almost without fail you and a gaggle of other posters jump on this guy the moment you see his name. Do you even read what he has to say before you start attacking?
"The fact you are missing is that our soldiers aren't the only ones being killed in the Iraq war."
What exactly did you mean by this "fact". You mean you weren't referring to innocents being killed besides the soldiers? Who then, were you referring to?
You and other people on this forum don't like it when generalizations are made that are not based on fact. Well, the fact is that there are some things that cannot be proved to your satisfaction.
I've seen people post sources and facts galore to support their beliefs and points of view but people continue to argue with the facts presented because they don't support their personal beliefs.
What exactly is the point of facts if they can be disputed. I don't think I have ever seen a subject discussed here that wasnt shredded to bits by both sides despite the posting of "facts" by both sides. It seems one man's fact is another man's fallacy. Who decides whose fact is real?
(Do any of you scientists watch "House"? I thought of you all last night as I watched.")
I asked if there arent other ways to gather stem cells besides dead embryos. Why doesnt anyone answer that question?
The original letter writer wrote: If he holds true to his words, he would end this war and bring our troops home.
Well, it will be a cold day in hell before Dubya the Dummy holds true to anything. He is a lying S.O.B. and an unethical b%stard.
I thought that the basis of this post was that taking of life was bad no matter what. However all the postings turn into bash bush and neocons.
If killing is bad under all conditions let murders be housed in your homes till the repay their debt to society.
If Bush is such a bad president then vote next time for one of the bleeding hearts who dont want a military, a prison system, and open boarders.
Bottom line: You reap what you soe.
Posted by [boarder] on June 30, 2007 06:19 AMTEW, you said:
"No, CB, I'm not speaking for Brian Stuckey."
Yet you responded to my following statement to him:
"But I think I can safely assume that you could care less about the death of innocent people unless they are Americans."
by saying:
"Please don't assume anything, CB. You are wrong."
Just admit that you have no idea whether I'm right or not about Stuckey's mindset.
Then after several nonsensical and irrelevant meanderings, you asked:
"Do you even read what he has to say before you start attacking?"
TEW, this is one of the dumbest questions I've ever read on this forum. Go read my original post addressing Stuckey and come back and tell me why.
Posted by Charles B on June 30, 2007 07:37 AMAs part of the gaggle, maybe I`m just a gag, but that is what Brians letters make me do.
Bushs attempt to pacify the extreme right will, I hope, backfire in his face and the faces, often two or more, of all the Republicans who support him.
Since they are so often two faced.
Posted by Sharon B. on June 30, 2007 07:58 AMto no name at 6:19. The basis of this post was the hypocrisy demonstrated by Bush in his claim that he wants to defend life. So... 'bush bashing' is what we all want to do. he is an idiot. plain and simple.
Posted by sheila on June 30, 2007 08:01 AMHi Sharon,
I think it was Dante, in the "Divine Comedy", who described a group of people whose heads were firmly fixed on looking backwards; and who, as a result, stumbled, staggered, and fell all over the place, since they had to walk forward while totally unable to see where they were going. (One of the places in the "Inferno", if memory serves.)
For me, this serves as an almost perfect description of Republicans/Bushites. The world keeps on turning. Humanity is always attempting to progress. But, the GOP is always focused backwards, on the "good old days" - which never really were - of the past.
Thus this Administration staggers, stumbles, and falls all over the place; gets into one dead end mess after another; and never actually goes anywhere, or accomplishes anything, always looking backwards to try to find out where it once was.
And in turn, the Party/Administration apologists and most vocal and vociferous proponents, are always insisting that the "direction" that policy - both foreign and domestic - "ought to take" is regressive, reactionary, and backwards from the reality of both present and future.
Less a matter of "two-faced", and more of a matter of modern reality echoing the art of ages. And, a wonderful discription of a part of that hell that the "superior Christians" would have us all inhabit with them.
Posted by Old Grouch on June 30, 2007 08:57 AMRight to lifers only care for blastocysts that are used to grow stemcells. The leftover fertility treatment embryo cast to the rubbish bin somehow don't deserve a candlelight vigil.
Posted by Holy Reality on June 30, 2007 09:00 AMHoly Reality,
Somewhere in the course of postings on this website concerning this topic, there is a link to, or citation of, a story about a priest of the Roman Religion holding services for some of the "discarded" embryos, and burying them in a special location in a Roman cemetery's consecrated ground.
If memory serves, the item was cited as a form of "proof" that these were, indeed, "human souls/persons"; and that the religious ceremonies were obligatory to their "salvation" in some way.
I don't recall whether or not the story indicated that the Roman priest soaked them down ("baptized" them with "Holy Water") first; but that can be looked up, should you be interested.
Just one example of the "triumph" of superstition over reason, of course. But equivalent, perhaps, to the "candlelight vigil" in its importance.
Posted by Old Grouch on June 30, 2007 09:37 AMCharles B:
"But I think I can safely assume that you could care less about the death of innocent people unless they are Americans."
If you're so concerned about the death of non-Americans, why are you in such favor of pulling out if Iraq and letting the insurgents kill innocent people unfettered?
Or did I catch you in a liberal misspeak?
Posted by KW on June 30, 2007 09:47 AMKW said:
"If you're so concerned about the death of non-Americans, why are you in such favor of pulling out if Iraq and letting the insurgents kill innocent people unfettered?"
Offer some proof for your hypothesis that more innocent civilians would be killed if we pull our troops out than if we continue to "surge". The opinions of pundits and politicians who were in favor of attacking Iraq (William Kristol, Richard Perle, Dick Cheney etc.) don't count. They've been consistently wrong about everything for six years running.
Should we discuss how many Iraqi's and Americans would be alive today had we not attacked Iraq in the first place?
Posted by Charles B on June 30, 2007 11:00 AMHi Old Grouch. What are there now, maybe 5 people left in the neo-con camp who havn`t decamped?
I remember reading about the Catholic priest. Didn`t some of the parents/owners of the embryos protest this?
Maybe someone can dig up the story.
If humans have souls, then do all primates? Or all mammals?
Where did God draw the line and why.
So many questions that have no answers.
Imagine God spending all of Eternity with the conscience of the embryo souls. Like us spending time with dust mites.
Will God make them all adults? Will I know my relatives if they get to be teenagers again. Makes the head spin.
(.)(.) Read the story about the lady who dared to breastfeed in public?
Posted by Sharon B. on June 30, 2007 11:09 AMI drew the line; however, I work in mysterious ways. I'm so mysterious I don't know where I drew the line.
Posted by Richard Grimes, a deicide: Risen Ape r22037@yahoo.com (ffrf.org on June 30, 2007 11:33 AMYou are still trying to make a rock so big you can`t pick it up. Who has time for details.?
Posted by Sharon B. on June 30, 2007 12:27 PMAnd so we continue to go back and forth and back again........emotion over reason and religious mythology over science.
BUT religion and science can work hand in hand as long as one is willing to accept that whatever is created is created by the ONE, the Universal and not by individuals alienated from each other. We are not alien to each other but part of the ONE and those blastocysts as part of the ONE can be beneficial when morphed into the ONE. All truth is part of the ONE and all science is part too. Any positive assistance to cure those things that plague us must surely be as holy as that which is created.
Too waste is unholy
The War is pure waste; death and destruction as evil as any cancer; Perverted and Pornographic.
Those who take the lives of our children and turn them into killing machines to destroy and write them off as just so much collaterol damage...Now THAT is evil.
If there is a Hell, it is in the minds of the returning soldier who has to live with all that pain, fear, blood and misery that they have lived with and been ordered to bring down upon those people in Iraq
Those who spend their time staring at the shadow in their cave and believing they are the ONE and that they alone are the ONE are the ones to be truly afraid of here. Those who have lost their humanity and claim to be the leaders of men are the aliens here. Bush has been shadow watching way too long
CB, Ok I admit I have no idea if you are right or wrong about Stuckey's mindset. Happy now?
You said: "Then after several nonsensical and irrelevant meanderings, you asked:"
With that one sentence you effectively proved the point of my "nonsensical and irrelevant meanderings". You don't care what anyone says if they don't agree with your own beliefs. The very attitude you and your gag accuse others of. You will attack with very little provocation.
No one has answered my question yet! Are there other ways to gather stem cells besides dead embryos?
Posted by TEW on June 30, 2007 01:24 PMTEW...
do you worry about your lost sperm as much as you do about lost embryos?
I mean, that's half a human being too, isn't it?
Posted by janis houston on June 30, 2007 01:31 PMBush draws his inspiration from the "Good Book" one of the most remarkable euphemisms ever coined and Brian Stuckey strikes again:
Brian Stuckey strikes again June 30 blaming the gay lobby for Merry Christmas and Easter omission from the Rocky’s front page. What is Christmas but a celebration by the Pagans in thanks for Winter Solstice when ol’ Sol, the Sun, returned and the Pope couldn’t wipe out the Pagans even by declaring them in league with the devil, ol’ Satan a creation of Jehovah, Allah, and Jesus coming from the “loins of David” and “fruit of the womb” from a 12 to 14 year-old Jewish virgin whom the pope claims is levitated into heaven to preserve her virginity in spite of her children: James, Josas, Simon and daughters, Mk.6:3, except in the Catholic Bible.
What is Easter but a day in which the “fruit of the womb” from the “loins of David” transmogrified into an anti-Semitic God destined for assisted suicide by mandating that Roman soldiers nail him to a cross that he never carries Mt.27, Mk.15, Lk.27 in which Simon the Cyrenian is forced to shoulder every step of the way. The much-maligned Jew by his fan club, all Jewish, contend he orders them in Luke 19:27 to kill all who “should not accept that he should reign over them,” in parable but true assassination. Friday evening, the Jew is nailed to the cross and about 36 hours later on Sunday morning, he like the Mormon Moroni, is resurrected and in Zombi fashion plans a holy genocide on his 2nd Coming to be achieved within a generation if not sooner.
Why would the Rocky want to illustrate on its front page such utter nonsense?
Charles B,
As we know, there's no sense trying to teach folks who aren't interested in learning , nice try though.
The notion that "We had to destroy the village in order to to save it " comes to mind, if you're old enough to remember Vietnam in '68 and also that the same mindset is at work........"The light at the end of the tunnel" , "give it time and we will prevail" and, of course Nixon's "secret plan for victory in Vietnam".
Kinda like deja vu all over again isn't it?
Except this time, Bush and Cheney are causing death and destruction, not avoiding it
Typical chickenhawk chickensh*t from the same cowardly crowd.
TEW, I am not sure about gathering stem cells without killing the embryo but I think I read somewhere that a few cells can be removed, only then what do we do with the embryo if it is slated for destruction?
I am betting Google or ask.com has your answer. Tell us what you find, OK?
Posted by Sharon B. on June 30, 2007 02:34 PMTEW claimed:
"You don't care what anyone says if they don't agree with your own beliefs."
Then why am I having this exchange with you? You don't know my motivations or my character any more than you know Brian Stuckey's.
As for your "nonsensical and irrelevant meanderings", I'll print the passages below and let the audience decide:
"You and other people on this forum don't like it when generalizations are made that are not based on fact. Well, the fact is that there are some things that cannot be proved to your satisfaction.
I've seen people post sources and facts galore to support their beliefs and points of view but people continue to argue with the facts presented because they don't support their personal beliefs.
What exactly is the point of facts if they can be disputed. I don't think I have ever seen a subject discussed here that wasnt shredded to bits by both sides despite the posting of "facts" by both sides. It seems one man's fact is another man's fallacy. Who decides whose fact is real?"
I'm supposed to react to that?
Posted by Charles B on June 30, 2007 03:05 PMSharon, thank you for your response. I already know the answer. I wanted to see if any scientists knew. The answer is Umbilical Cord Blood. An article from NewScience.com titled
"Cord blood yields 'ethical' embryonic stem cells"
* 00:01 18 August 2005
* NewScientist.com news service
* Andy Coghlan
gives the details. It sounds promising and agreeable to both sides of the issue.
Jan, it takes both an egg and a sperm to create an embryo. I don't think I would have an issue if either of those tissues were used separately before fertilization.
If cord blood was routinely collected and stored after every birth it seems that there would be plenty available for the future use of the child and enough to donate to a prospective recipient or scientific research. No killing involved whatsoever.
CB, I'm tired. My husband and I have been replacing our kitchen floor all afternoon in this heat. I stand by my observations of this forum and how people are treated and how facts can be twisted and turned until they are hardly relevant to either viewpoint. You do not have to respond.
Posted by TEW on June 30, 2007 07:42 PMTEW,
I've got three kids and an attic renovation going on, so I can relate.
I understand what you're trying to say I think. I just don't understand how it relates to me. I am very fond of facts and work hard not to let them be muddied by my prejudices. Like anyone, I am not perfect in this of course.
Good luck with your project.
Posted by Charles B on July 1, 2007 08:21 AMI presume TEW was trying to be cute, or maybe I should say sarcastic, when she characterized the posters here a scientists and decided to act like a school marm and give a little test.
The news about blood cord received a considerable amount of publicity. If you Google stem cells and blood cord you get over a million and a half responses. I get tired of posters, KW is addicted to doing this, who think their role is to test the knowledge of other posters rather than to share their own knowledge.
Like embryonic stem cell research, blood cord stem cell research is in the very early stages, but, like embryonic stem cell research, it offers great future promise.
"The newly discovered human cells, named “cord-blood-derived embryonic-like stem cells” or CBEs, are not quite as primitive as embryonic stem cells, which can give rise to any tissue type of the body. But they appear to be much more versatile than “adult stem cells” such as those found in bone marrow which repair damaged tissue during life."
Posted by Truth on July 1, 2007 04:25 PMWhat I`m asking here, is it possible to remove a few cells from an embryo and still have a viable embryo.? Like taking eight or ten cells, but the zygote can replace them.
I seem to recall an article on using only some of the cells when the zygote reaches a certain size.
Still, in the end, they will be destroyed.
But if they have souls, then I guess they get a free pass into Heaven. (sarcasm) as usual, from me.
Posted by Sharon B. on July 1, 2007 05:27 PM