A DIFFERING VIEW: Most grads won’t use high school math and science
There’s a big push to make our children take more math and science courses so they’ll be more competitive in the world market, whatever exactly that means (Rocky July 12 editorial “One step backward”). The problem with this logic is that the vast majority of college students will never have any use for four years of high school math, and will probably never have much use for chemistry or physics, for that matter.
Most college students are going to become teachers, accountants, programmers and businesspeople. The notion that we should become a nation of engineers, scientists and mathematicians is ludicrous. By forcing our teenagers to take advanced algebra, trigonometry and calculus in order to get into a college — so they can write books and articles, teach elementary school or English or history, or work as desk jockeys — all we’re doing is pushing them away from college, and possibly even pushing many otherwise good students out of high school.
I took four years of high school math, and have been working as an accountant for 30 years. I occasionally have use for my 9th grade algebra, but have never, for any reason, used plane geometry, advanced algebra or trigonometry.
This pointless emphasis on math turns the notion of a liberal education on its head — instead of a well-rounded education, we’re forcing our children to forgo some measure of literature and social sciences so they can be better versed in a subject which most people despise, and for which they will never find any use.
So if we need more engineers and scientists, let’s encourage our kids to pursue those fields of study, but it’s absurd to force all of them into this one-size-fits-all approach to education.
Jeff Kocsis is a resident of Littleton.
What a moron!!!!!! For years we have cut back on the math and science requirments for our younger generations. It is far past time to bring these standards back up to a level that is comparable with the rest of the world. Just because you found a mundane job that does not require much thinking does not mean that others will follow in your boreing steps.
Math is a must for anyone who wants to get into a better paying construction job, unless they want to compete with the illegal laborers being hired. Electricians use math. I unfortunately have to solve for x on a daily basis. Something I never thought I would have to do.
Useing the basic concept of the formulas is what must be learned. Not the numerical side always. It is a thought process that is used in all sorts of fields. Police solve for x every time the get called to a crime.
I see though that you have a pechance for the social aspect. You support all the revised history and touchy feel good classes then. Social skills are neccessary but if you have no thought process it does you no good.
Reading , Riting, and Rithmitic, the three r's. (yes i know not spelled correctly) are desperatly needed in schools today.
Posted by on July 17, 2007 04:51 AMwell goodie for you and I would take a guess that you take your shoes off to count to 20 also.
so which country should all of the scientists come from? just think that if some engineer or scientist didnt think a calculator was a worth while idea you would still be using beans to do your counting.
'This pointless emphasis on math turns the notion of a liberal education on its head — instead of a well-rounded education, we’re forcing our children to forgo some measure of literature and social sciences so they can be better versed in a subject which most people despise, and for which they will never find any use.'
please explain how literature and social science will benefit the masses? oh that would mean that the educators would have to teach kids how to read, or they could become an account.
Well Jeff, I'll remember not to hire you to do my books....I would probably get audited by the IRS.
Posted by on July 17, 2007 05:10 AMThe three responses above clearly show that children need more than math and science to be educated.
Posted by Truth on July 17, 2007 07:12 AM"I occasionally have use for my 9th grade algebra, but have never, for any reason, used plane geometry, advanced algebra or trigonometry."
Admit it or not, but those were the very same courses that helped you to develop your ability to think. Just because you didn't have to apply these disciplines directly to a specic task doesn't mean that they were useless.
You make a great case for how the "dumbing down of America" and lowering standards can lead to failure in a rapidly globalizing planet, a planet that is constantly moving the bar higher. You would think that after 30 years of being on the job that by now you would have become a little more aware of what's going on all around you. Some folks might be happy counting beans for 30 years, others demand a little more challenge.
As a bilingual middle school teacher with an MBA, I have to agree that too much emphasis is being placed on math and science. As is evidence by some of the above comments, humanities are not considered important- you know, things like how to be a good citizen, how to interact with people, how to understand and use globalization, and of course- the whole world should learn English so that we don't have to learn other languages and cultures. No wonder the US is looked down on with so little care about other people and cultures. This country does need more scientists and mathematicians, but they are not and never will be the bulk of our society. Everyone needs to be a citizen and know how to get along in the world.
Posted by Gary on July 17, 2007 08:06 AM With all of the heated rhetoric about "education", is it not strange that nobody stops to ask "What is education? It would seem that if one wishes to address a problem, one should first clearly define what one is talking about.
We have those who would define education as "learning a skill." That is fine, as long as one is involved in mere training. Of course, one can also train a horse, a dog, a cat, a dolphin, etc. Is that what education is, merely learning a skill in order to "earn a buck"? I would beg to differ. The real objective of "education" is to "open the mind" such that it is capable to think clearly and independently, and in many areas. The "educational" system in this country, from grade school on has become nothing more than the training of "experts." EXPERT: One who knows more and more about less and less until they know absolutely everything about nothing. So, students, don't let your mommy grow up to be an expert.
A major reason for understanding math, science, cultures, history, and civics is to be able to understand the world around us.
I can understand that as an accountant, you would have little use for those courses. But as a voter you should know them. People who do not understand the law of conservation of energy think that hydrogen powered cars will eliminate pollution. People who don't understand chemistry think that you can have fuel burn without combustion byproducts. Anyone who doesn't understand what computer modeling is will not understand most of the news stories about the environment. Someone unlearned in history might actually believe that oppression causes revolutions.
A big problem we have now is we didn't teach middle eastern culture to the current crop of voters.
That is why we have education.
Posted by Yaakov Watkins on July 17, 2007 08:26 AMJeff, I thouight you might be villified for what you wrote but I had no idea until I read the comments.
Most of the comments so far tacitly admit you are correct; most people will never use the level of math they are exposed to in high school. (I bet most of them found higher math pretty easy too.) If kids need to learn to think and solve problems (and they certainly do) then give them classes where they are taught to think and solve problems and if they need math, they will learn it. When they need calculus and trig they can take it in college. In fact some college professors believe this is exactly what high schools should be doing along with developing a good work ethic and study habits.
We want to force kids to learn subjects they don't like because it's in the national interest? Please. We need to start losing the idea that every kid is college material and should be on that path. It isn't working. Too many kids are entering traditional 4 year programs that don't belong there. The average time to get a four year degree sure isn't four years, if they graduate at all. In my high school most of the kids taking shop and auto mechanics were pretty smart but that's what they liked. It is not "dumbing down" to give kids the path of learning for which they have an interest and the aptitude. However this isn't easy or cheap. One big reason schools aren't able, or willing, to do it.
The reason math and science need to be taught is that they build the skill sets necessary to be a problem-solver. They make you actually THINK about a problem, instead of just reacting to it.
Posted by Tbone on July 17, 2007 09:24 AMI have two elementary students. The Math they are taught is not real world math.When we go to the first night of school night ,we are told by the teachers not to teach our children math the way we were taught.Here is an example of 1st grade math, if you got this far in the class,most kids were still doing single digit addition.
43 40 3 60
+ 25 + 20 + 5 + 8
-------- ------- ----- ------
60 8 68
This is what they are taught instead of
43
+ 25
------------
68
Does anyone do math like this. Is this how you balance a check book?Is this how you go over statements or bills of any kind.
This is just the beginning of what the school system calls Everyday Math,
As the grades go on it gets more assinine as it goes.
My husband is a math genius and is stunned at the way they are teaching math.It doesn't make sense and it is confusing. They give the parents an answer book but not the problem book.
The papers they send home to accompany the answer book can be confusing for a majority of parent because it doesn't show how they get the answer.Also my husband has found numerous wrong answers in the book.I am fortunate to have married a math genius,because the way they do math is crazy.
They also have a new way of doing simple subtraction,multiplication,and division.Also very confusing.
Everyday math is a horrible math program that the school system has bought into.
Sorry the numbers didn't line up after posting,so I'll try this.
43 +25= 40 + 20=60 3+5=8 60+8=68
That's the way they teach addition.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on July 17, 2007 10:44 AMMath and science is important not only per se, but as a means of developing critical thinking. I recently encountered this gem: "How can 1 gallon of gasoline, which weighs about 7 lbs., produce about 18 lbs. of CO2??? Do those climate change fools think they can create something from nothing?"
The only "fool" there was the writer, who apparently didn't learn the very basic chemical idea that when you burn something, you add oxygen to its end product. So 7 lbs of carbon combining with 11 lbs of oxygen gives 18 lbs of CO2. Failure to understand basic science and math leaves one subject to ignorant misunderstandings and to be manipulated.
Amen, it took a minute to understand but this is the way I use to add in my head. Add the whole or even amounts 40+20 and remember the amount is 60, then add the 3+5 and put the two together.
I only recomend the method if you don`t have pencil or paper and are doing this mentally.
Go buy your kids some old school books and let them learn both methods. The old one is fast and doesn`t take so much work.
They can do new math in school and regular math later.
Posted by Sharon B. on July 17, 2007 12:24 PM
A "well rounded education" in high school? Maybe, but doubtful. Kids already have too much social science and not enough history. Too much multiculturalism and not enough English. Math is perhaps unique in that it can be done right or wrong. Period. Small wonder that many liberal educators would prefer to not have to perform to so sharp a measure.
Posted by Brooks I. on July 17, 2007 12:41 PMI believe that "Gary" of 08:06 AM is displaying an attitude of what is hurting our public education system. Namely, the main mission of schools is to make everybody a "good citizen" and getting along with everyone else. While I agree that such characteristics and skills are extremely important, they are not the only skills that are necessary to get along in this life.
Critical thinking, logic and even common sense are vital skills in our modern global society. These skills are learned via the study of math and the sciences. And not, as "AMEN" so aptly demonstrated, by coming up with short cuts and mental crutches to skirt the importance of learning and applying axiomatic rules and disciplined analytical thinking.
The pendulum of learning in our public schools at one time was, perhaps, too far to the side of hard math and sciences to the exclusion of societal awareness. But now the pendulum has swung too far to the side of humanities and feel good self esteem oriented development. We need to have that pendulum swung back to the middle, providing our young minds a balance that will enhance their learning for all aspects of their lives.
Posted by darfor on July 17, 2007 12:56 PMWow, did you open a can of worms. I am on your side. How about teaching Common Sense or better yet Manners. Oh and everybody go back and read "can I get an AMEN" My girls finished college and still have a hard time balancing a check book.
Posted by pam on July 17, 2007 01:25 PMWow, did you open a can of worms. I am on your side. How about teaching Common Sense or better yet Manners. Oh and everybody go back and read "can I get an AMEN" My girls finished college and still have a hard time balancing a check book.
Posted by pam on July 17, 2007 01:27 PM"It is not "dumbing down" to give kids the path of learning for which they have an interest and the aptitude. However this isn't easy or cheap. One big reason schools aren't able, or willing, to do it."
This is definitely true! Another reason is, those things are tested by CSAPs, and therefore don't show the school to be one of the top schools.
I'm waiting, but certainly not holding my breath, for the schools to begin requiring a consumer math class, in which they learn how to make and live with budget, how to buy a house, make investments, how to buy stocks, and save for retirement. These are the kind of skills every student can use. Calculus? Trig? Sure, some can use it, but not everyone.
There are other ways of teaching problem solving than with math and science.
I think Mr. Kokcis' letter is 100% accurate, and I applaud his willingness to speak the truth!
Posted by Parent of Three on July 17, 2007 01:54 PMKocsis states that "Most college students are going to become teachers, accountants, programmers and businesspeople," then implies that these jobs do not require advanced math.
I cannot speak for businesspeople or teachers, but I'm majoring in Computer Science, and when I program, I routinely use calculus, differential equations, and linear algebra. My guess is that any programmer that isn't doing only the most trivial of tasks is going to require at least some knowledge of the three. Those I know that are in finance related fields also have use for parts of calculus, diff eq., and linear algebra, though probably not to the extent that I do, and most likely without any trig. They still need the math, just different parts of it.
I think this touches on a bigger problem: too many people view college as simply a means to a job, rather than a means to understanding. I decided to attend college because I enjoy learning, not because I want a job. If it helps me get a better job, that's just a side bonus.
Too many people just go through the motions, learning methods and how to do stuff but never really understanding why or how the things that they do work. Being able to do things is certainly important, but only half the goal. You can only teach so many methods of doing things, but when understanding is achieved, you can adapt what you know to different situations that one may never have learned a set method of doing. I can say without any doubt that my knowledge of higher math has made me significantly more vesatile not only at work and school, but home as well.
Posted by Jacob W on July 17, 2007 05:07 PMTo Dafour:
I challenge you to volunteer an hour a week for a year in a middle or high school and then tell me what you see and what you think. Better yet, try an inner city or poor school.
The goals of schools are to produce "good citizens." Good citizens have the skills to get along with others, have the skills to learn, are able to benefit businesses and the economy, and to add not only to the world but to their families and themselves as well. This requires a well rounded education including math, science, English, and the humanities which by the way not only includes history and geography but economics and civics as well. Too much of our school time is being spent on things that are of little use- in all academic areas, not just math and science. There is too much to teach and we need to either stop using a one size fits all or if we are going to continue with it, then we need to condense and accentuate the things that are important and will most likely be useful.
Our school averages 30-35 students per class and does not have a single counselor. We do not have any shop or home economic classes or hardly any electives that students really look forward to.
Teachers are expected to be parents, counselors, social workers and special ed. teachers, etc all at the same time. Classes are about 45 min. each. If lecture, attendance, and other obligations take 20 min. that leaves less than 60 seconds per student each day and even less if we mainly concentrate on academics and discipline. We then have 150 or more papers each day to read, evaluate, and grade. We have to plan for the next day's academics and activities. We also have after school programs, classes to take or teach, school committees to help organize and run the school, and we are expected to keep in contact with parents. Our day does not end when students leave the building.
We need help from everyone. I challenge everyone reading this to help students by volunteering time at a local school- whether it be in classes, after school programs, or being part of a school committee. I don't know of too many schools that would not jump at the chance to have help.
Posted by Gary on July 17, 2007 11:41 PMI do volunteer 3 days a week, 2-4 hours each (the "program" calls for 1 hour per day) at a local high school which is considered a "poor school" (less than 50% even get to their senior year, let alone graduate).
The reason I do volunteer, Gary, is two fold: 1) I realize that dedicated teachers who really do care such as you appear to be are totally overloaded in the minutiae of administrative requirements beyond actual teaching. I work with students who need a little more one-on-one as identified by teachers who are spread too thin to provide that extra help to all who need it. 2) Doing so fulfills a sense of self-gratification I experience when I help someone else -- a kind of payback for the help I received (and needed) when I was young.
My problem is not with the teachers, Gary. For the most part the teachers I've met and those I work with are totally dedicated to their students. My criticism, so to speak, is with the the overemphasis I see in social skills to the almost exclusion of providing a mental or intellectual challenge to these youths.
Rather than providing just "by the book" tutoring in subjects identified as requiring extra work I find myself helping these students in such areas as personal financial management (you might not be surprised to know that some of these students are responsible for keeping the groceries on the table, the light bill paid and getting younger siblings off to school before they themselves go; but it was a rude awakening to me). Spending time beyond academics in helping them reason through and find their own solutions to problems has demonstrated a profound effect in their academics as those reasoning, analytical tools are applied to their school work and social settings.
My problem, Gary, is with the curriculum set by "progressive academic theoreticians" looking to make learning "easier" by eliminating challenges and extra effort. Some of these kids I work with had reading and comprehension skills that were beneath my 9 year granddaughter's. Some couldn't add and subtract simple columns of numbers (similar to a check register). As a point of reference, I work with kids grades 10 thru 12.
Will all kids respond to challenge? No. But by dumbing down, providing crutches and short cuts to all kids so some don't feel left out or behind, is cheating those who will respond out of an education they need in life. I'm not talking about the college prep group; I'm taking about the future blue collar workers.
Posted by darfor on July 18, 2007 07:13 AMI have a child going into 2nd grade working on most levels at a 5th grade level.
I asked the principal to skip her to 3rd.I was already informed by her 2nd grade teacher that since she is ahead in math that I would be responsible for doing extra math at home with her. Her teacher told me she is only going to teach the book.My child nows the book.
They tested her and said if I put her in 3rd grade she would only be in the middle of the class. If I keep her in 2nd she already is at the top of the class and past many of the test limits for 2nd grade.
They denied my request to skip her a grade, so now again she is stuck in a class where she is way ahead. She is not a genius,she is bright and picks things up and self teaches herself.
Another year stuck in a class bored out of her mind.With a teacher that has the personality of a ant. Her 1st grade teacher new she was way ahead and kept her ahead . She also brought her out of her shell after being terrorized by her kindergarten teacher, that has had many , many complaints but they won't get rid of her.
My husband and I would like to send our children to school to be educated.We think they should be around their peers.The school system however wants to keep them dumbed down to the grade level and mediocre curriculum they are teaching.
My other child going into 5th grade is working on a 7th grade level and doing per-Algebra on her own during the summer.
Everytime my now 2nd grader is tested at the beginning of the year she tests past the standards set for that grade level to accomplish that whole year.
Last year she tested past all their standards for the year before going into 1st grade. I didn't request them to skip her to 2nd because she was still immature and needed to learn to speak up for herself and become a confident learner. Which her 1st grade teacher did an absolute amazing job with her.
Why should I have to teach my child at home to keep her at her level?Shouldn't the schools be able to teach all kinds of children?Each child is unique in their own way.Now I have to come up with a math program to keep her ahead because the teacher is only going to teach the book.
I really hate this school she's in. The Principal is a liar and will not let my children learn beyond the out of the box education. My husband and I have to keep them at their level.
I volunteered when my youngest was in kindergarten. After I asked her to give harder reading to my daughter because she was reading 2nd grade level she refused,I went to the principal. After that my daughter and I were retaliated against the rest of the year by this teacher.I won't volunteer at that school again.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on July 18, 2007 09:24 AM