College tuition for illegals
Discrimination. Please. Try something original. Any time you put a lawyer in the mix. Some people can’t come up with any good response to an argument, so they just throw that word in and everyone is supposed to start cowering.
Do the people who write these kind of articles have kids ? I see nothing wrong with someone who is?of illegal parents, having to pay more for things like that. Illegal parents have nothing to complain about. They’re GIVEN too many things as it is.?Children of illegals should look at it from our point of view.
How many of their parents are living and working here illegally using a stolen SSN? How many of their parents are driving our streets with no license or insurance ? How many of their parents are living in a house paid for with non-taxed income ? How many of their parents walk the streets in protest demanding rights that they’re not deserving of ? How many of their parents have no intention of learning our language or assimilating to OUR?culture ?
Any American in jail for grand theft or identity theft, any auto violation,?or tax evasion, should be?released. Then they should be rewarded somehow.
Because, they haven’t?done anything that these illegals aren’t doing.?And we’re rewarding them.?
It’s sad to see America being stomped on and disrespected?by these illegals.....
and by it’s own people who feel sorry for them.?
This letter has not been edited.
If the politicians in Colorado want to give in state tuition to illegals. I have a great place where we can find the money. Stop paying politicians.....
Posted by legal on July 26, 2007 04:17 PMMark....you're just not thinking fourth-dimensionally.In view of all the expenses related to past,current,and future Ward Churchill litigation,how about we encourage the state colleges to collect tuition,books,prepaid housing,etc from the illegals,then on the first day of class send in I.C.E.,round'em up,ship'em off and keep the money.
Posted by Jimminy on July 26, 2007 04:21 PMEventually we will be giving illegals EVERYTHING they want.
we are too stupid and lazy to stop it.
Mark....
You are right !! We all repeat the same concern, over and over... Now what????
Posted by maria-now -Independent on July 26, 2007 08:00 PMIt is immoral to punish children for the actions of their parents. Also, if they were born in the US, they are not illegal, and should obviously have access to subsidized education just like any other citizen.
Posted by Kyle on July 27, 2007 12:36 AMIt is a losing battle, the government (the worthless President and cohorts in the Senate) do not care, they are not listening, they will do want big business wants because the Average American Citizen does NOT count in their world. Homeland Security bill that is the Senate, the worthless Senators are trying to put AGjobs Amensty and the DREAM act into it, even after the American Citizens bombarded them with phone calls, email, etc telling them that any Amensty or any reward to illegal aliens breaking the law was UNACCEPTABLE. They don't get it, the only way they are going to get it, is by US THE AMERICAN CITIZENS STANDING IN PROTEST. I wonder how they would feel if 200+ million American Citizens bombarded the Capitals, refused to pay taxes, stood at the border to protect it (both north and south)? Are they going to arrest 200+ million American Citizens and LEGAL immigrants? The only way we stand a chance is by uniting, but then, that would be asking to much, because most American Citizens have gotten so complacent that they don't care until it effects them. We as Americans created this problem and allowed it to get out of hand, we are reaping what we sowed.
Posted by Pam on July 27, 2007 07:38 AMTax revolt.
Posted by not complacent on July 27, 2007 07:49 AMWe don't educate children solely for the sake of the children. We also educate them for the sake of the country. There are millions of uneducated children or poorly educated children around the globe. That is one of the biggest problems we have in the world. The cost of educating children is much less than the cost, for example, of trying to deal with gang violence, which is largely the result of poor or no education. Let's not cut off our nose to spite our face, as the saying goes.
Posted by Truth on July 27, 2007 09:32 AMTax Revolt!
Posted by truthy on July 27, 2007 09:51 AMIf a person who was born in this country by illegal parents wants to go to college and pay in-state tuition lets put on a stipulation .The illegal parents and all illegal family members must go back to the country they came from.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on July 27, 2007 12:29 PMWhile I agree with the moral problems of punishing the children for the actions of the parents, it happens all the time. If I commit a crime, my children will pay for it (If I were in jail, my kids would not have the financial security that they have now, possibly not have health insurance, etc.) The parents committed a crime (knowlingly) and they should have considered the consequences. The issue isn't educating the children, they are already guaranteed a K-12 education. The problem is college, should they be eligible for in-state tuition and scholarships. If that takes away opportunities for American citizens, then the answer is no. If you go to register your kids for one of the more prestigious school districts in the state (Cherry Creek for example) you have to jump through many hoops to prove that you live in the district. Perhaps if an education wasn't available to illegal immigrants, sneaking into this country wouldn't be such a problem. If parents knew that there would be limited opportunities for their children, they would be so anxious to come here. The enforcement doesn't need to be concentrated at the border, it needs to be concentrated at the benefit/job level. The influx of illegal immigrants is flooding the school systems and costing a great deal of $$ for bilingual materials and teachers, remedial courses and services. The federal government is spending tons of money on free and reduced price lunches for illegal immigrants. Don't jump on my here...I don't want hungry or uneducated kids, I just want someone in government to realize that as long as these things are available, we will continue to have an illegal immigration problem. Take away the incentive, save the money spent on these programs and the immigration problem would slow down and these hard working people would be able to focus their energy on fixing the problems in their home countries.
Posted by idk on July 27, 2007 10:30 PM"If a person who was born in this country by illegal parents wants to go to college and pay in-state tuition lets put on a stipulation .The illegal parents and all illegal family members must go back to the country they came from."
That would be illegal. A person born in this country is a citizen, and thus has the same rights as any other citizen. Such a stipulation would be discrimination. A citizen is entitled to in-state tution in the state that they are legal residents of, without stipulation, and regardless of the legality of their parents.
Posted by Kyle on July 28, 2007 02:15 AMidk
Or, instead of punishing people simply seeking a dignified life for themselves and their children, we could stop destroying the Mexican economy and try helping it instead. People don't leave their own country just for the hell of it... I don't remember hearing about a mass influx of illegal Canadians. Remove all farm subsidies, repeal NAFTA, and work with Mexico to remove the need to immigrate.
Posted by Kyle on July 28, 2007 02:20 AMKyle,
I agree with you to a point. However, America is not the only country with an illegal immigrant problem. The difference is the the US is the only country that provides so many benefits/services to those illegal immigrants. I am absolutely torn by the situation. I do not want the illegal immigrants to be treated inhumanely, but I also don't want my children to suffer from the low wages, ID theft and other problems that come with illegal immigration. I want reform that isn't amnesty because there are many immigrants that are playing by the rules and waiting in line and they shouldn't be punished either. America cannot fix Mexico, that needs to come from within their own country. Certainly America can help, but I worry about becoming sucked into supporting another country. I don't know what the solution is, I wish I did!
"...people seeking a dignified life"?? It'd be a good idea to re-read Tina Griego's "Border Street" series.I recall reading of over-occupied,trashed homes,defaulted rent and mortgages,junk everywhere, as well as a young fella running back to Mexico just ahead of an arrest warrant charging him with raping a child. I wonder how y'all feel about Joe Nacchio staying out of jail,thereby retaining HIS "dignified life".
Posted by Jimminy on July 28, 2007 10:39 AMThe United States is one of the only countries in the world with birthright citizenship. Ireland had such a policy until very recently. They were having a problem with lots of pregnant women from the developing world going to Ireland to give birth so their kid would have Irish and European Union citizenship.
This was both morally offensive, and a drain on the Irish healthcare system. So Ireland fixed the problem: it abolished birthright citizenship.
Perhaps we should have the same debate they had.
Posted by Sheila on July 28, 2007 01:21 PMidk, your post is a rarity: someone who is looking at both sides of an issue and is having a difficult time deciding where to land.
My view is that we need to treat those illegal immigrants who have been here for some time, and have complied, and continue to comply, with the various requirements regarding criminal record and productive employment, differently from those who have been here some time but have not complied, and also those who have been here a short time or are just now coming over.
I believe that the United States, in the way it has handled illegal immigration up till now, has knowingly provided a strong incentive to people to come here illegally. I believe that we have used the illegal immigrants in a way that the powers that be considered was good for our economy, or parts of it. So, I oppose a policy of trying to make life so miserable for that first class I mentioned that they might leave voluntarily. I think that is unAmerican and immoral.
The primary benefits we have provided them involve health care and education. I don’t cotton to the idea of trying to get rid of them by denying them these essentials to a worthwhile life. And I likewise resist the idea of creating a permanent underclass by letting them stay but denying them the various benefits we provide to people because they are human beings, not just for their sake but also for the sake of our own principles.
People who agree with the essence of my position will still have a variety of details on which they will differ.
You say that you want reform that isn’t amnesty. But if giving them some kind of path to citizenship is considered amnesty, then the only option is to deport the twelve million or so. I don’t see how we can do that and still treat them humanely. Those who favor this approach do not consider that the twelve million or so are entitled to be treated humanely because they have broken the law by coming here illegally. For them, being illegal seems to mean we can treat them however we want.
I don’t see how you can say you want to deport all of them, on the one hand, and want to treat them humanely, on the other. Or perhaps you think it would be humane to let them stay but as a permanent lower class, similar to the caste system in India. I don’t think that would be humane, nor do I think it would be in the best interests of our country.
Truth, I don't think that everything is as black and white as you would like to believe. I do not believe that any illegal immigrants who have broken the law deserve citizenship and all the responsibilities and benefits that come with it. I also agree with Sheila that we should stop automatic citizenship for children born here unless one parent is a citizen. If we are to offer citinship to those who have been here illegally for a long time, we are rewarding their breaking of the law...that just isn't fair to immigrants who haven't broken the law and are waiting patiently in other countries for their chance. I don't think that deporting them is the issue either, but perhaps a real guest worker program that allows people to come here for work and return to their home countries (which is what many illegal immigrants say that they want). If a successful worker program is put in place and the automatic citizenship by birth is aboloshed, perhaps we would have a better system. People could come here to work, make decent money and return to their families in their home countries. The money that they make in the US would go further in their country, the US would not be burdened by the health/education costs of their families and their countries would become stronger. I know that it takes more than waving a magic wand to fix this problem and illegal immigrants ARE people who deserve humane treatment. But they have knowingly broken a law and they should not be rewarded for that.
Posted by idk on July 28, 2007 06:32 PMAnd by the way, Truth, where did I say I wanted deportation in my original post? Yes, I do want all people in this world treated humanely. But rewarding illegal activity is not the answer either. I don't think that by not providing citizenship we would have a caste system. That is quite an extreme. Most countries do not give citizenship just for being born in the country, the US should not either. Many people live in countries other than where they hold citizenship and are not living under a caste system. But living in the shadows does create problems. The US needs to know how many foreign citizens are in the country and why.
Posted by idk on July 28, 2007 06:43 PMI was one of the last ones drafted. When I got out of the Army I became a father and the timing was not conducive to attend college under the GI Bill at that time. They stopped the Bill when I was ready. I couldn't afford to go it alone. Now I am 56 and would love to go but there is not enough money for me. Who is more deserving?
Posted by deserving on July 28, 2007 09:37 PMIf you want to change the constitution, then you of course have that right to try and do so. But as it currently stands, children of illegal immigrants born in the US ARE legal citizens, and cannot be denied in state tution.
"The difference is the the US is the only country that provides so many benefits/services to those illegal immigrants"
This statement requires proof. The US already has a very weak safety net system for citizens, let alone illegal immigrants. This argument is often made, but never backed up.
"America cannot fix Mexico, that needs to come from within their own country"
It would be much easier if the US would discontinue economic policies meant to rape and pillage the mexican economy. Farm subsidies and NAFTA have destroyed the Mexican agricultural system, one of the biggiest and most important parts of their economy. As soon as Mexican workers began to earn halfway decent wages in all the new factories, they were all closed and moved to cheaper locations thanks to the farce that is globalization. No agriculture plus no industry equals no economy, which equals the need to migrate. If the choices were starvation and total poverty, or a chance to feed and educate your family, you would pick what exactly? Blame the system, not the immigrants.
Posted by Kyle on July 29, 2007 03:33 AMidk, you don't want them deported. You don't want them to have a way to become citizens.
There is only one other possibility. Let them stay here as a permanent underclass, living in the shadows as they say. That is a caste system, pure and simple.
In other words, you don't want to do anything different, just maintain the status quo.
Well, you do want to do one thing different. You don't want their children to be citizens. So you want that permanent underclass to just be allowed to grow and grow.
Without tuition help the children won't be able to afford college. That way, they will stay down there; that lower caste will remain lower. The children will continue to pay for that horrible crime their parents committed, that is, trying to find a better life for themselves and their families, and doing that by responding to job offers in the United States.
But, as you keep repeating, you want them treated humanely.
Posted by Truth on July 29, 2007 06:44 AMKyle,
""The difference is the the US is the only country that provides so many benefits/services to those illegal immigrants"
This statement requires proof. The US already has a very weak safety net system for citizens, let alone illegal immigrants. This argument is often made, but never backed up."
How about the education system? If an American citizen move to Germany, France, Argentina, Brazil, or any other country, their children will not be educated in their native language at the expense of the government. In Mexico, non-citizens are not allowed to own property.
Truth, yes, I do want the constitution changed to require children born here to have one parent be a citizen (like most other countries in the world). My nephew was born in Germany and guess what...not a German citizen.
I want the system fixed so that the illegal immigrants are not drawn here into a life of poverty, but the arguements that the pro-illegal alien group keeps making is that we need their low cost labor. Then in the next breath, they say that we should help them with college. So, then we will need more immigrants to fill the low cost labor pool I guess...that is a cycle that needs to be fixed. Who wants to help me pay for my kids to go to college???? There wasn't any money for me to go decades ago and it took me a very long time to finish my education.
A fair worker program that allows immigrants to cross the border and work, returning home to their families would be the best. Most countries outside the West have a thriving system that allows workers to leave their countries to work and allows the families to stay home.
Obviously, we will never agree on the particulars. I don't want anyone to be treated as if they are less than human, but there shouldn't be a reward for illegal activity! Amnesty was granted in the 80's and that encourage more illegal immigration. That didn't work, so let's try something different.
idk, why do you say "That didn't work, so let's try something different", and then go on to advocate the status quo, that is, no deportation, no path to citizenship?
I'm sorry you're having a difficult time understanding that a guest worker program does not apply to families already here. It's really not that complicated.
But it's interesting that you consider we are treating people humanely by condoning a caste system in which the members will continue to live here illegally in the shadows, and in which they will pass this legacy down to their children, their grandchildren, their great-grandchildren, etc. That way, we will have a growing class of illegals to work the fruit fields even if we successfully close the borders.
Posted by Truth on July 29, 2007 09:49 AMTruth,
I'm sorry that you are having a hard time understanding that illegal is illegal. Just because people are already here does not entitle them to citizenship. There should be no reward for breaking the law. A guest worker program and a modified Z visa program would bring them out of the shadows. That is not the status quo. The status quo right now is "look the other way." They won't be passing their legacy down through the generations since the status quo is that all children born here are citizens. (yes, I would like to see that changed, but it is what it is right now). UNC has a program for low income students (many happen to be first generation citizens from Mexico) that allow them to move into the dorms early to get settled, select their classes ahead of everyone else and receive special counseling classes to make sure that they are successful. Oh yeah and 90% of these students are on full scholarship (not for grades, but because they are minority and poor). So, your caste system is a little out of whack. If children did not receive citizenship by birth, then some other things would have to be looked at, but as it stands now, the idea of a caste system is wrong. These children receive a heck of a lot more than my kids do. I certainly believe that illegal immigrant children should receive in-state tuition to colleges if they can prove that they graduated from a high school in that state, but they should receive no federal aid or scholarships.
I absolutely want illegal immigration out of the shadows. I do not want a person afraid to report a rape because of the fear of ICE. That is what is wrong with the system now. There is no enforcement or selective enforcement. The government needs to decide pretty quickly what they are going to do and then provide enforcement. The new immigration plan needs to include systems for humane treatment. Humane treatment does not equal citizenship.
I guess that I am in the bottom of the caste system since both my parents grew up on farms and worked the fields. Too bad that they didn't know those were jobs Americans wouldn't do!
Posted by idk on July 29, 2007 10:08 AMMemo to idk: your "I'm sorry that you are having a hard time understanding that illegal is illegal" is a red herring, that is, "something intended to divert attention from the real problem". It is not about illegal. It is about the punishment.
Running a stop sign is illegal. So is rape. The difference is the punishment.
Of course, those who crossed the border illegally have done something illegal. No one questions that. The issue is how severe should the punishment be.
The Z visa does provide a path to citizenship. I am glad to see you support that despite your various comments to the contrary.
Of course the children will be citizens as the constitution currently stands. But you want to change that so that the children, the grandchildren, the great-grandchildren, on down the line forever, will be illegal. You want to punish not just the person who came here illegally, but his/her entire progeny, forever.
Posted by Truth on July 29, 2007 11:04 AMI have an idea! Why not allow the child to become a citizen, the moment the parents or parent has applied for, been accepted and completed the naturalization process. Just like it had been done for 100 or some years prior to the supreme court changing that process.
And here is a unique idea have the illegals register and give our immigration department some time (more than one day) to check out their background, require them to pass a physical exam, allow them three years to obtain a working knowledge of the English Language and swear allegiance to the US and revoke their allegiance to their homeland.
During those three years ICE could pursue all immigrates who failed to register (in addition to anyone aiding them), develop a realist Border enforcement program (like if you are illegal you are not welcome) , fine or jail any company or person hiring illegals (non registered)
At the end of the three years, any illegal who has registered, obtained a working knowledge of English, committed no felonies or less than three misdemeanors(aiding an illegal would be classified as a felony), collected no funds from social programs (excluding Federally required ie public schooling) and has maintain employment ( personal or IMMEDIATE family) would receive citizenship and all of its benefits.
Any illegal who fails to meet these requirements would be deported.
Posted by on July 29, 2007 11:53 AMJimminy Cricket you're right!
Posted by on July 29, 2007 05:47 PMA better idea..send all able bodies to Iraq..male and female 18 and up. Either that or go back to home town Mexico!
Posted by on July 29, 2007 05:52 PMHold the phone there folks! Are you SURE you want to send a bunch of enterprising criminals through military combat training,equip them with the latest hardware and send them to where they can cross the border yet again.... and hook up with the Iranians?
Posted by Jimminy on July 29, 2007 07:09 PMThe constitution was the reason cited by the Supreme Court when the decision was made that those here illegally were subject to our authority. Supreme Court decisons can be legislated and can be revisited. It would only take one state refusing to issue birth certificates to allow the present Supreme Court to study this rulilng. Better yet I'd hope some member of either Congress or the Senate would introduce legislation to define illegal aliens as not being covered by that provision of the 14th ammendment. Next year is an election year and their colleagues might not want to go on the record as preferring illegals to Americans. Especially voting Americans.
There are many paths to changing that part of the law. We can also do something locally about businesses and fines. There is a ballot initiative process in Colorado. Let's get off our chairs and start something to punish those who profit from illegal immigration. When we get rid of the jobs we will get rid of the problem. Nothing else's going to work half as well.
Jimminy,
About 5:52..Ya got a real good point.! :)
Just like Kyle, pass over those more deserving to support the felon's. Now that we know about post traumatic syndrome, how many much more deserving and loyal should we support?
Posted by deserving on July 30, 2007 06:04 AM