Michael Moore’s “Sicko”
Mich
What Michael Moore and the media have not done is to explain how the doctors can work for free, also the nurses, janitors, clerks, etc. Now certainly we can all imagine the people who own the hospitals to be willing to ask nothing for the use of their property. The equipment manufactures will donate their equipment, and the stockholders will turn a blind eye. Of course this is not possible, so the only other alternative is for the government to take over.
Then we can have a universal Walter Reed set up. We’ve already seen what the government can do, and that was for their own employees - the military - people sacrificing limb and life for them. Nice idea, but not very practical.
This letter has not been edited.
Wow, I had no idea that doctors, nurses and other medical professionals have to work for free under a government-run national healthcare system.
I also had no idea that hospitals and clinics didn't pay for their facilities and equipment.
It certainly seems to work well in Canada.
Next time you're hospitalized, check your medical bill. Why should Americans have to pay $12 for one Tylenol just because it was administered to them in the emergency room following an auto accident?
It doesn't make any sense -- and neither do you.
Here, read this and educate yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_health_care
If Canada can do it, we can do it better.
Posted by Tree Hugger on July 12, 2007 02:41 PMI think the letter writers main point was that the term 'free health-care' is a misnomer and propaganda, as it isn't 'free' by any means.
Posted by Roy on July 12, 2007 02:47 PMActually George the mess at Walter Reed has come about because of privatizing some of the maintenance. (thanks Halliburton and Cheney) Why don't you watch the movie before complaining about it?
Posted by just sayin' on July 12, 2007 03:00 PMRoy: "I think the letter writers main point was that the term 'free health-care' is a misnomer and propaganda, as it isn't 'free' by any means.
Posted by Roy on July 12, 2007 02:47 PM"
Hardly. Lilly states his point clearly: he doesn't want the government involved in health care. He doesn't say why. He doesn't come to grips with the fact that health care in the United States costs twice as much on the whole as in nations with universal health care. Nor with the fact that those nations cover everybody while we leave thirty to forty million uncovered. In fact, Lilly really doesn't come to grips with anything. He just wants to be able to rant without having to think.
Of course, when people talk about universal health care being free, what they mean is that a poor family doesn't have to check their bank account to know whether they can get health care or not. The word "free" is misused a lot these days, as in "if you buy one of these, we'll give you another one free". But you don't see many people complaining when businesses use the term fraudulently. It's just when people use the term to describe what it means for an individual user without going on the spell out that indeed the taxpayers are footing the bill that people object.
But I have seen very few people refer to universal health care as being free. You won't see any examples of that given by those who complain of using the word "free".
That's pretty much the definition of a straw man, pretending that someone has said something that they really didn't say so you can criticize it.
Posted by Truth on July 12, 2007 03:27 PMYou may be right, that was the impression i got from the letter though...
Truth: He doesn't come to grips with the fact that health care in the United States costs twice as much on the whole as in nations with universal health care
--
Don't forget the population of the US is much much larger than any of those countries with 'universal' health-care...
Truth: taxpayers are footing the bill that people object.
I'm not so worried about the taxes as much as about the massive amounts of borrowing that will, imo, inevitably occur, most likely from China, as we are doing today. Not only that but the massive inflation that will also, imo, inevitably occur, as the Federal Reserve will continue to fund the government with printed money to fund their adventures at home and abroad...
Thanks Just for your points.
Yes Walter Reed AMC privatized parts of the Patient Care pieces. The Benefits area was and still managed through the Govt. Integrating the patient care side of the house with the Govt is a very daunting task.
Lets see....... A Govt managed benifits and administration linked with a Private Patient Care group........ What does that look like exactly????? Let me see, can we say CANADA?
Why cant we start looking at root cause of why our healthcare costs are approx 2x the cost of Canada and see where they are best fixed. That maybe through Govt management.
1 of many possible reasons. Why is our healthcare insurance based upon employer groups rather than individual based insurance. Could it be tax laws?
While Truth has given good examples of "free" abuses; the fact:
"Lilly states his point clearly: he doesn't want the government involved in health care. He doesn't say why. He doesn't come to grips with the fact that health care in the United States costs twice as much on the whole as in nations with universal health care. Nor with the fact that those nations cover everybody while we leave thirty to forty million uncovered"
Again why does it cost approx 2x. It is easy to compare per capita cost per country. It is not so easy to analyze why those costs exist. Or the fact that the 30-40 Million uninsured are broken up into distinct groups that the majority of this group most likely does not fall into the truly needy. How about the fact that up to 30% of costs for insured are due to Govt Mandates that cover State and Federal, but a lot of times not integrated so as to lower capital work to maintain compliance.
Dont base your opinions and judgement based upon your party affiliation, but rather finding Root Cause and fixing our problems with solutions that address our Root Cause analysis.
Posted by bwr on July 12, 2007 03:53 PMRoy said:
"I'm not so worried about the taxes as much as about the massive amounts of borrowing that will, imo, inevitably occur, most likely from China, as we are doing today."
How do you feel about doing it to kill people in Iraq?
Posted by Charles B on July 12, 2007 03:56 PMI don’t understand why so many people hang their hat on the Canadian system of health care. Either they somehow have never heard or turn deaf ears to the fact that their system is NOT working well at all. They have rationed health care; people have to wait for months even major procedures such as open heart surgery; if someone is of a certain advanced age they cannot even get an MRI and still have to wait two or three months at the least to get a CT scan; etc., etc.
Why would the American public want to institute a bureaucratic health care system like the one in Canada where people leave to go else where for more prompt treatments?
Please view the videos on the following link and come back to tell me Canada has a splendid way of taking care of their sick citizens: http://onthefencefilms.com/video/deadmeat/
I wonder....would Michael Moore go to Cuba to have the rectal surgery he obviously needs?? You know to get his anti-American-I hate America- I'm getting richer... head out of his far left a**!!!!!
Posted by A on July 12, 2007 04:35 PMI think it's important to have movies like Sicko, F 9/11, Convenient Untruth, etc..
How else would Charles B get a chance to seek his higher education?
Before you retalliate CB... (/sarcasm)
Posted by KW on July 12, 2007 05:18 PMA person should really see a film before judging it.
And you HAVE to admit, Mr. Moore was spot -on about the war (can you say disaster?) in Iraq.
And I have to note. The Bush family offspring have yet to enlist in Daddy's or uncle W's war.
By the way ,Farenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury should be on your list to read this summer, if nothing else to find out why Mr. Moore came up with the title for his film.
And for more light summer reading, 1984, and Animal Farm by George Orwell.
It's actually pretty spooky how close we've come to what both writers envisioned.
Give me a break dmz, you know that Orwell wrote those books about the Soviet Union. What in this great country gives you an idea we are moving towards communism (unless I'm sure, if you had your way you'd be the animal that is most equal).
With this health care debate, we always hear about Canada or Cuba and how wonderful it must be to live there, but can anyone cite any statistics on how awesome the "socialized" health care is in China, or perhaps India. I agree that these countries have three times the amount of people respectively, however we never hear about either one. Socialists (liberals in sheep's clothing) only want to talk about France, England, or the Great White North. From my perspective, and the way China's recent execution of the head of their supposed "FDA", I can't say it is superior to our current system. Dissenters?
Posted by Colin uber lib J. appeaser. Sanchez on July 12, 2007 07:07 PMMaybe Moore will write a sequel, SICKO. Poster A could be the main character.
Posted by Truth on July 12, 2007 07:09 PMThe simple fact is that the World Health Organization ranks the United States health care system as the thirty-eighth best in the world. Not all that good for the wealthiest nation in the world.
Holes in Canadian system or other universal health care systems? You increase the funding twice. to the level that we spend in the United States and you have the best health care systems known to mankind.
What do you think would happen to the health care system in the United States if we suddenly started spending at the same level as most universal health care countries, that is, half as much as we now spend? We would have to close most hospitals and fire most doctors.
Posted by Truth on July 12, 2007 07:15 PMI wonder if the people who called "Fahrenheit 9/11" a pack of lies while proudly admitting they never saw the movie will do the same with "Sicko."
Posted by Hans Christian Brando on July 12, 2007 07:22 PMI figure the folks commenting on this blog are not independently wealthy, otherwise they'd be smoozing with the jet set and not waisting their time whining over such trivial matters as affordable health care.
If that's the case, you'd better pay heed to the message Sicko sends because, my dear citizens, you are the ones on the short end of the stick.
While you're gasping through your respirator and watching your life savings being garnished and your home sold to pay hospital expenses, you may have time in your last moments to think of those famous words by the late Congresswoman Barbara Jordan, to wit:
"When morality bucks up against profit, profit will always win."
Posted by 593Boat - USS Thresher on July 12, 2007 08:43 PMI figure the folks commenting on this blog are not independently wealthy, otherwise they'd be smoozing with the jet set and not waisting their time whining over such trivial matters as affordable health care.
If that's the case, you'd better pay heed to the message Sicko sends because, my dear citizens, you are the ones on the short end of the stick.
While you're gasping through your respirator and watching your life savings being garnished and your home sold to pay hospital expenses, you may have time in your last moments to think of those famous words by the late Congresswoman Barbara Jordan, to wit:
"When morality bucks up against profit, profit will always win."
Posted by 593Boat - USS Thresher on July 12, 2007 08:43 PMI figure the folks commenting on this blog are not independently wealthy, otherwise they'd be smoozing with the jet set and not waisting their time whining over such trivial matters as affordable health care.
If that's the case, you'd better pay heed to the message Sicko sends because, my dear citizens, you are the ones on the short end of the stick.
While you're gasping through your respirator and watching your life savings being garnished and your home sold to pay hospital expenses, you may have time in your last moments to think of those famous words by the late Congresswoman Barbara Jordan, to wit:
"When morality bucks up against profit, profit will always win."
Posted by 593Boat - USS Thresher on July 12, 2007 08:45 PMTruth,
How much is enough? Why only stop at twice the amount we spend, let's make it three times, or even better four times. And while we're spending that much on health care, let's spend four times the amount on everything else, hell I don't mind if I pay 80-90% of my paycheck for everyone else. Why even have a job? Who's going to feed my family or pay my mortgage when that happens (or I suppose I don't deserve a house)? Entitlements, the mantra of liberals.
Posted by Colin uber lib J. appeaser. Sanchez on July 12, 2007 08:50 PMColin (etc.) 7:07 ,
Orwell wrote 1984 long before Joe Macarthy and his supporters, (fascists in patriot's clothing), started their inquisitions, before they were exposed as the fearmongers they were.
But he right has always had to have a boogieman to keep the faithful fearful.
Colin, I suggest you read it again.
The sad fact is, the corporate bosses are "more equal than others" .and contribute very little, with tax havens and accountants not available to we working folks.
WOW !! Loved Moore's meltdown with Wolf Blittzer
Posted by tj1961 on July 12, 2007 09:10 PMmoore should do a documentary about himself, he can call it LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!!
Posted by not here on July 12, 2007 09:27 PMmoore should do a documentary about himself, he can call it LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE!!
Posted by not here on July 12, 2007 09:27 PMSo "Sicko" is about health care?
I thought it was Moore's autobiography!
To those that want universal health care. I have one word for you. Kaiser. I just found out that I need surgery. I called to make an appointment, but they couldn't set up one because they don't have September's schedule yet and won't until sometime at the end of July. So I have to wait to even schedule an appointment, I can' t wait to see how long I will wait for the surgery. The government will be worse. Another example closer to home, the VA. Well if you enjoy narcotics they have a plan for you. Got an ache or illness? Take these morphine and percocet and forget our number.
Posted by kg on July 12, 2007 11:33 PMI caught on to Moore's tricks in "Roger and Me". Very effective propaganda, Goebel's would be proud. A buddy of mine from Canada (green card) says this about their health system, "It works fine unless you get really sick...then you cross the border and see a doctor". The wait to see an oncologist is 7 to 9 weeks in Canada (which is appearently good for that kind of system) My friends mother crossed the border for care. (She saw the oncologist in two days). It was an aggressive cancer, but she made it. Yes, it cost his family a lot, but they have their mother. By the way, my buddy likes the Canadian system...as long as they can cross the border.
Posted by Tom on July 13, 2007 06:20 AMThere is nothing that is free. Everyone knows this little nugget of wisdom. Yet from the movie he would have us believe that Great Britain's system is "free".
Eighty five percent of Americans would pay for, or change their system for 15% of the rest of the population? Hell no.
Michael Moore is a fraud from the word go. Typical ultra-liberal denier of the fact and of the truth.
Tree Hugger:
Do you know what Wikipedia is? It is an aglomeration of postings from anyone. Not a very good definitive source!!!
There is nothing wrong with the healthcare system in this country. It is wonderful
Ask just about any veteran how he feels about his treatment from the government operated Veterans Hospitals, and see if he would like to see that level of expertise controlling all health care in the USA.
And, do you remember the saying "Hello, I'm from the government, and I am here to help you?"
kg said:
"To those that want universal health care. I have one word for you. Kaiser."
???????????????
Posted by Charles B on July 13, 2007 08:20 AMKG - the whole point is that not EVERYONE can afford the premiums.
I sincerely hope that you're only ACTING this stupid.
Posted by Cancer's No Fun on July 13, 2007 08:36 AMAnyone with at least half a brain, which excludes 90% of Republicans, realizes that universal health care will not be free. People will still have to pay premiums and co-pays, but they will have an insurance policy. What he is proposing is universal health care, which means all citizens are covered, not free health care.
Posted by Sean on July 13, 2007 08:37 AMI can't believe there's actually a few posters here who'll accept anything coming from Moore as fact. He's nothing more than a professional propagandist.
Posted by KW on July 13, 2007 08:46 AMA future movie by Michael Moore should be entitled....Bleeding Hearts! Stop The Hemorrhaging!
Starring the one and only Truth!
Posted by A on July 13, 2007 09:00 AMTo me the funniest thing around is that liberal minded people seem to think two things. 1. Our government is screwed up and should be despised (proven by the fact that they berate the government and government officials over and over and over and over....) 2. We should hand over our health care system and the 1.2 trillion to 1.8 trillion dollars in taxes to pay for it to that same government and government officials.
Don't get me wrong I understand that our system has its many problems but why should the fix be to scrap it and start over with a new government monopoly?
God bless Michael Moore - he's a true American hero!
Posted by drew on July 13, 2007 10:44 AMAs a small antidote to the usual recitation of fairy tales from the republican frightwing anthology this from that well-known marxist rag Business Week:
Business Week, that bastion of leftist reportage has an article which compares the healthcare of various nations.
Here's a quotation:
Of the countries surveyed, 81% of patients in New Zealand got a same or next-day appointment for a nonroutine visit, 71% in Britain, 69% in Germany, 66% in Australia, 47% in the U.S., and 36% in Canada. Those lengthy wait times in the U.S. explain why 26% of Americans reported going to an emergency room for a condition that could have been treated by a regular doctor if available, higher than every other country surveyed.
No. 1 in Foregone Care
The Commonwealth survey did find that patients in the U.S. had shorter wait times than every country except Germany when it came to getting an appointment with a specialist for nonemergency elective surgery, such as hip replacements, cataract surgery, or knee repair. But Gerard Anderson, a health-policy expert at Johns Hopkins University, says most doctors know how to "game the system" in those countries where there are queues for elective surgery, by putting at-risk patients on the list long before their need is critical. "Their wait might be uncomfortable, but it makes very little clinical difference."
The Commonwealth survey found one area in which the U.S. assumed first place—by a wide margin: 51% of U.S. adults surveyed did not visit a doctor, get a needed test, or fill a prescription within the past two years because of cost. No other country came close to that percentage...
In the UCSF study published last year, the researchers set out to determine how long it would take to get an appointment in 12 cities to examine a face mole that had changed color, a common warning sign of skin cancer. They found a range of mean wait times according to geography, from 20 days in Little Rock to 73 days in Boston. The researchers pointed out that the wait in rural areas, where dermatologists are scarcer, are likely much longer. In addition
Recent research surveyed by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a governmental think tank for the rich nations, found that mobility in the United States is lower than in other industrial countries. One study found that mobility between generations — people doing better or worse than their parents — is weaker in America than in Denmark, Austria, Norway, Finland, Canada, Sweden, Germany, Spain and France. In America, there is more than a 40 percent chance that if a father is in the bottom fifth of the earnings’ distribution, his son will end up there, too. In Denmark, the equivalent odds are under 25 percent, and they are less than 30 percent in Britain.
Recent research surveyed by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, a governmental think tank for the rich nations, found that mobility in the United States is lower than in other industrial countries. One study found that mobility between generations — people doing better or worse than their parents — is weaker in America than in Denmark, Austria, Norway, Finland, Canada, Sweden, Germany, Spain and France. In America, there is more than a 40 percent chance that if a father is in the bottom fifth of the earnings’ distribution, his son will end up there, too. In Denmark, the equivalent odds are under 25 percent, and they are less than 30 percent in Britain.
In terms of security in the form of a stronger society and a healthier work force I'm convinced that money spent on a well-functioning health care system would be worth more than all the B-2s and F-22s we could build, maybe cheaper too.
After reading Patrick's post, John II was seen fumbling "but, but, uh, well, those surveys didn't take into consideration the fact that we speak a different language from the Germans. And also we don't wear those funny looking Australian hats. Not only that, when we sneeze we say, "God Bless", and not "gesundheit". See, all these things vitally affect health."
Posted by Truth on July 13, 2007 11:19 AMTo break down Patrick's post: Our healthcare system is in dire need of fixing?
Not sure anyone has said it doesnt need fixed. How to fix the problem is the issue. As Truth puts forth are symptoms without root cause. He is too busy to look at silly crap like Root cause or Solutions Analysis even at a 50,000 foot view or even Worse acknowledge the Need for it. He just wants to spend BILLIONS and BILLIONS and BILLIONS ABOVE the estimated tax base to CONVERT to a Socialized Healthcare. This is above and beyond the TRILLIONS (1.2-2.x)for ongoing care.
Truth does not tell you nor acknowledge the fact that a decent Percentage of our current Healthcare problems are DUE to the Govt
-Up to 30% costs due to fragmented Mandates from Local, State, Federal agencies
-TAX Base that has created an Employer Based Healthcare system compared to an Individual Healthcare system which can help bring down costs and increase services.
YES The Govt has a role in helping fix a broken Industry. But the ANALYSIS and Research of Root Cause will define what is needed
In the same post Truth Applauds the WHO findings. Even talks about the facts of conditions that affect our overall health within the US. Items such as violence, drugs and other items will NOT be fixed by a socialized HC system BUT are directly associated and included in the overall Costs.
Talk has been about the greedy employees of HC insurance companies, even those that are working for Non-Profit insurance companies. They conveniently forget the Unions that negotiate for a decent portion of those employees. By negotiating better union deals, is this helping Americans get affordable healthcare?
Remember the Billions of dollars above and beyond the estimated tax costs for Conversion? Well I guess I should be happy. My piece of industry and career is on the recieving side of the equation. Baby needs a new pair of shoes.........bring on Socialized medicine...........
Posted by bwr on July 13, 2007 12:12 PMI would bet showing a percentage of people who slam Michael Moore and call him a liar would be 100% of those who have not and would not see one of his movies. I always ask people who call him a liar and a propogandist if they have ever seen his movies. The typical response " I don't have to see it to know it is full of lies and propoganda" Of those slamming him please respond if you have actually seen the movie or heard about it from Fox news/Rush Limbaugh/Sean Hannity/Ann Coulter etc. Do you understand the government has to keep us divided, if we actually came together to benefit our citizens and do what is best for us all as a collective people the government would actually be held accountable. As it is the posts talk about how scary it would be with a Government run health care system, not scary if we demand the best and hold our representatives accountable. The right says the left are all crooks and liars, the left says the right are all crooks and liars. Maybe they all are and we are just facilitating them all by not voting and fighting with each other about Canada's health care. The number one reason for bankruptcy is medical bills and those people have insurance! I spent years paying off medical bills for my wife and son, which now cannot be insured because of pre existing conditions. What is wrong with this picture? You can't get Insurance because you are sick? Does this seem like the best health care in the world?
I would bet showing a percentage of people who slam Michael Moore and call him a liar would be 100% of those who have not and would not see one of his movies. I always ask people who call him a liar and a propogandist if they have ever seen his movies. The typical response " I don't have to see it to know it is full of lies and propoganda" Of those slamming him please respond if you have actually seen the movie or heard about it from Fox news/Rush Limbaugh/Sean Hannity/Ann Coulter etc. Do you understand the government has to keep us divided, if we actually came together to benefit our citizens and do what is best for us all as a collective people the government would actually be held accountable. As it is the posts talk about how scary it would be with a Government run health care system, not scary if we demand the best and hold our representatives accountable. The right says the left are all crooks and liars, the left says the right are all crooks and liars. Maybe they all are and we are just facilitating them all by not voting and fighting with each other about Canada's health care. The number one reason for bankruptcy is medical bills and those people have insurance! I spent years paying off medical bills for my wife and son, which now cannot be insured because of pre existing conditions. What is wrong with this picture? You can't get Insurance because you are sick? Does this seem like the best health care in the world?
Michael D who is saying that our HC system does not need fixed? Who?
Yes the names you named above are devisive and have hacked on Moore. But you conveniently left of Wolf Blitzer, and Kurt Loder and probably many others.
Yours and many other letters prove that we are a throw away society. Don't bother looking at problem and evaluating to fix or replace. Just Throw it out and get something new. Never mind the costs and the new GAPS created.
What is your suggestions?
Posted by bwr on July 13, 2007 01:06 PMMichael said "The number one reason for bankruptcy is medical bills and those people have insurance!"
Indeed, and it isn’t as if there was a very low bankruptcy rate overall – it takes some doing to outperform predatory lending and general fiscal irresponsibility.
At the same time, the insurance companies, drug companies, and others are making out like bandits.
This is not something that should be happening, and it’s a strong indicator that the cost of healthcare delivery is far too high and that the system has become wildly imbalanced in favor of a few stakeholders to the enormous detriment of the patient.
If the system was working as the economists say it should, then the companies would make a reasonable return on investment, the practitioners would be fairly rewarded, and the patients would be able to afford healthcare and not go into bankruptcy except in the most extreme situations.
Preventive Medicine......is the answer..
Which ever way this issue goes....a woman should have doctor breast exams earlier than 40-or-50. My daughter got breast cancer at 31. She was told that they don't concern themselves with exams till later in life. Surgeries,chemo,radiation,medicine was costly. Preventive.....would have saved alot of anxiety and $$$. The same w/colonoscapys,
and weight control..nutrition, diabetes prevention. Save lives by prevention.
I don't know the answer of how to fix the healtcare system but I sure don't want the government to have all that power. Why would we give the government so much power over us???? They will have to most power when we are to sick and weak to fight back. Wake up people. Please tell me if any of you think veteran's hospitals are run well.
Posted by JV on July 14, 2007 02:18 PMSomebody name ONE government bureaucracy that is efficient and well run? Just one. No fair counting the IRS, of course......because that one involves the confiscation of our money to be spent at their pleasure. The government has incentive and muscle behind the coercion.
Perhaps this is a reason some of us want the government to stay out of healthcare. It is bad enough to deal with pencil pushers at the HMOs and PPOs to get the type of care we need.
I agree with bwr that things were different before the government got involved, back in the days when you bought an individual or family policy from an insurance company.
I don't have the answers but to me, government involvement is not the answer. I don't need to see Moore's movie to know that.
BTW, anybody remember the heat wave a few summers ago in France that killed hundreds? Why is it that hundreds here in this country don't die from a heat wave?
Hmmmmmmm.......
Posted by RU Serious on July 14, 2007 07:24 PMSince everyone is into repeating themselves:
We pay twice as much as other nations for our health care. We are rated thirty-eighth in health care by the WHO.
What do you think would happen to our health care system if we cut in half the amount of money we spent on it?
Let me repeat that last part for the slow readers:
What do you think would happen to our health care system if we cut in half the amount of money we spent on it?
Posted by Truth on July 14, 2007 09:01 PMSend all the hospital bills from illegals to
Mexican President Calderon!
Their the cause of Everything..in all areas!
Truth - The argument isn't as simple as that. No matter how many times you make the statement.
Posted by KW on July 16, 2007 10:37 AM