Progressives point of view
To the Progressives, victory is “stopping the violence". Thus, each new car bombing only confirms at we are “failing” in Iraq, and that it is a “quagmire". I saw a woman on CSPN desperately crying “We must end it! We must end it!” It was clear she just couldn’t bear it! This Progressive secularist attitude is understandable: *
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To the Patriots who wish to defend Democracy and Western Civilization, victory is simply preventing medieval Radical Islam from taking over Iraq.
The violence may last 50 years! It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to think through the disaster were we to lose our will and hand victory to Al Qaeda and their sponsors. But the Progressives refuse to see the danger in Radical Islam as did the British elite in the late 1930’s who refused to see the danger in Hitler.
The German invasion of Poland in 1939 thoroughly discredited the British elite and brought Churchill to power. But the attack on 9-11, which should have had a similar effect here, hasn’t. The strong denial and the unwillingness to face reality have transformed 9-11 into some one time natural disaster like hurricane Katrina in the minds of most Progressives.
The “evil” as far as the Progressives are concerned is President Bush “persecuting innocent Muslims!” Quite an Alice in Wonderland view! One can only speculate how the Progressives will persist in explaining away the continuing Islamist violence which only grows in ferocity, frequency and ever closer.
This letter has not been edited.
A very good letter and to the point. Thank you for your comments.
Posted by Brian Stuckey on July 23, 2007 02:54 PMSir,
May I say that your letter is a breath of fresh air in this era of postmodern relativism. Excellent! You sir have nailed it on the head!
I think this is what we call a 'straw-man'... and yes, it is a fallacious argument.
Again, good job trying to 9/11 with Iraq.
Posted by benn on July 23, 2007 03:33 PMWhat nonsense. "Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel." Too true.
Posted by gadfly on July 23, 2007 03:41 PMRadical Islam. Hmmm, would that be the Shiites or the Sunni? Do you right-wing idiots even know the difference? Or who's side Al-Quida is even on?
What about Saudi Arabia? Weren't the majority of the 9/11 terrrorists from there? That's where half of the foreign-born terrorists in Iraq are from. Isn't that where Osama is from?
By the way, where is Osama and why hasn't he been brought to justice?
Posted by on July 23, 2007 03:44 PMUh Oh, Captain Pettys you're going to get it now!! I do not look forward to the name calling and long diatribe that will follow your letter. SPs resent people trying to pull their heads out of the sand.
Posted by A on July 23, 2007 03:45 PMThe only thing funnier than this rant is the queen pissant Stuckey calling it "to the point". Get your meds adjusted, Petteys.
Posted by on July 23, 2007 03:47 PMA said:
"I do not look forward to the name calling and long diatribe that will follow your letter."
The letter itself was nothing but name calling and a diatribe, so why should the author expect anything else in return?
Posted by Charles B on July 23, 2007 05:08 PMha,ha thanks for the laugh. goofball
Posted by on July 23, 2007 05:18 PMCharles B.
Why don't you surprise us all and give a reasoned rebuttal to any one the many fine points the Captain made.
Posted by Get Real on July 23, 2007 05:27 PM"Captain" Petteys - sounds like he's the Captain of the Ship of Fools.
Let's ask this imbecile the big question for around the 2 millionth time: WHAT DID 911 HAVE TO DO WITH IRAQ!!!?
And please stop this idiocy of comparing the world's struggle for freedom in 1939-45 with a war of choice waged against an innocent people & a tinpot dictator- For no apparent reason - oh, sorry it was to "find the weapons of mass destruction." but now apparently that has miraculously morphed into "simply preventing medieval Radical Islam from taking over Iraq."Good grief!
Incidentally, captain, victory, for Progressives isn't “stopping the violence," victory would be going after perpetrators of violence against us at the source - hint: think OSAMA (you know, the one who actually attacked us on 911) , Western Pakistan, eastern Afghanistan. Got it yet or are you still confused?
Posted by drew on July 23, 2007 05:28 PMI'm always fascinated when I read a letter from someone who is supposedly describing me. Yes, I confess, I'm as progressive as they come.
The biggest problem with Mr. Petteys' description of progressives is that it doesn't sound anything like me!
I think the idea that progressives are riding the coattails of the greatest generation and accused of 1945 thinking is that it contradicts the very definition of "progressive." If anything, my republican friends seem to be the ones stuck in the WWII concept of 'kick ass and take names' thinking that isn't working so well.
You can call me names Mr. Petteys, but I remain as dedicated to my philosophy as you are to yours. America will prosper if we roll up our sleeves and find a workable solution to our country's problems.
Posted by Michael R. on July 23, 2007 05:34 PMWhenever I want to know about something, I ask people who appear to hate the thing in question. This ensures a fair and balanced view. When I wanted to know about Tibet, I asked the Chinese, when I wanted to know about the Scots, I asked the British, when I wanted to know about Catholics, I asked Protestants, and when I wanted to know about Progressives, I asked a retard.
Oh, wait, I'm sorry. All the places I wrote "I" I should have written, "Cap'n Dave."
Posted by Grog on July 23, 2007 05:53 PMAre you sure this letter wasn't from Captain Kangaroo?'
Posted by just sayin' on July 23, 2007 06:11 PMWhy don't you surprise us all and give a reasoned rebuttal to any one the many fine points the Captain made.
Posted by Get Real on July 23, 2007 05:27 PM
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I would argue that secular governments and progressive ideals helped the pull the world out of the dark ages...it is certainly the secular government of these United States that has paved the way to the modern prosperity we enjoy today.
radical islam is not now, never has been, nor ever will be, a world changing force...for those of you who think it is, you've already lost your liberty.
Posted by jonny vegas on July 23, 2007 06:49 PMCap'n Dave, Your obviously a huge O'reilly fan, I think this is a transcript from one of his rants. What is a secular progressive? From the definitions I could find in the dictionary I think it means a forward thinking religiuosly unaffiliated person. Sounds pretty good to me! i love the labels, watch out for the SP's they will abort your baby if they see you pregnant, they hate God and the US. They will do anything to see the US lose the war on terrorism. Sounds like the SP's are worse than the Al Quida types. You want to know the seret of how I know you are a huge O'reilly fan? He is the person who invented the SP label, he is the only one I ever hear using the label. I have to give high marks to this administration and their fight against terrorism, they sre so good they don't even look for the supposed mastermind behind 9/11 (hint, Osama) they invade Iraq. Beautiful, these guys are protecting us? but watch out for the SP's they may want peace!!!
Posted by Michael D on July 23, 2007 06:49 PMIn the last month we have been named "Secular Progressives" then it was "Marxist Progressives" and now this man has reversed the original name to "Progressive Secularist".
All progressives will please cast your vote for one name only.
Results will probably be late because some of us are "Progressive Procrastinators"
Posted by Sharon B. on July 23, 2007 06:51 PMOh, I love the progressives! Aren't they the ones on my TV with that upright, eloquent lizard for a spokesperson? He's so cute, I figure they must be a good bunch.
Posted by hikingartist on July 23, 2007 07:50 PMGet Real asked:
"Why don't you surprise us all and give a reasoned rebuttal to any one the many fine points the Captain made."
Help me out: What are the "fine points" the Captain made?
Posted by Charles B on July 23, 2007 09:06 PMThe "we have to fight them there so we won't have to fight them here," and the "liberals are to blame for..." are not exactly original ideas. The latter only gets repeated on a regular basis by right-wing talk-radio and talk-show hosts. The garbage about "fighting them there..." has been the drumbeat of the the war supporters ever since the rationale for the Iraq war dried up.
This looks more like a hit piece put together on behalf of the GOP and/or the White House than an original letter.
Posted by James on July 23, 2007 10:15 PMHey, Captain Petteys,
Do YOU know where Osama bin Laden is?
Cause George Bush says he was responsible for 9/11 and he couldn't find him so he stopped looking.
Iraq was never about 9/11, just as Clinton getting a BJ from Monica Lewinsky had NOTHING to do with Whitewater.
In a neo-con's addled mind stringing together unrelated events through lies and deception is an ends to a means.
George Bush got revenge for his daddy by taking out Saddam and his oil buddies got their hands on Iraqi oil. They don't care that bin Laden is still free. He just gave them a very contrived excuse to invade Iraq.
Posted by Thomas on July 24, 2007 06:23 AMAs you can see, I am a military man too Captain Dave so my view must be counted as high as yours. This war is a travesty. We were wrong to start it, attacking a country for no justifiable reason is not what America USED to be about. We were for freedom, not focing freedom. That said, we should pull out. Sending another 3-4 thousand of our young men and women will never justify the wasted deaths of those who have already died there. It sickeds me that rightwngers are so glib over killing more Americans for their weak macho libidos. I woudl like to see every congressman' sons and daughter as well as the Bush daughters in Iraq...if they were there the war would end tomorrow. Easy to be a brave war-monger from the safety of te US. Bush is a menace, IMPEACHMENT NOW!!!!
Posted by Captain America on July 24, 2007 07:01 AMGet Real: "Why don't you surprise us all and give a reasoned rebuttal to any one the many fine points the Captain made.
Posted by Get Real on July 23, 2007 05:27 PM "
Thanks for the laugh, Get Real. You are a Real Comedian. "Fine points". What a sense of humor.
Captain Dave is right liberal Democrats are in fact cowards.Some of these cowards just hate the US also.
Posted by An American on July 24, 2007 10:46 AMYa know, if I had a nickel for every time a conservative tried to blame the failure in Iraq on progressives, I'd have the Republican party knocking down my door, offering me tax cuts that might actually mean something to me.
The war in Iraq is a neo-con failure from start to finish. They planned it, they sold it, they have been running it. The only thing the Dems are guilty of is not having the spine to really call them on it until is was bad enough that even some of the Republicans are jumping ship.
Sacrifice? Yeah, where is the sacrifice? Where are the women giving up their nylon stalkings and the paper and iron drives? Where is the draft? Where is the rationing and the slogans like 'Is this trip really necessary?" No, instead our government leaders are telling us to spend like usual. To consume as usual. Go line up for Harry Potter and Micheal Bay movies. Buy that Humvee and drive it across the country. The only thing we have sacrificed is our rights, our military families and our spines. If this is a real war, then let's get real serious. Otherwise, bring the troops home and let's get back to what really matters; sex scandals and new iPods.
Posted by Roger on July 24, 2007 12:05 PMIt seems to me that Progressives are just Conservative wolves disguised in Moderate sheep's clothing.
There are two solutions in Iraq -- continue the war or get out. There is nothing in-between. No way to "stop the violence" without either defeating the enemy or ending the war.
Problem is -- we don't really know who "the enemy" is. Are we in the middle of a civil war, a lawless insurgency or a series of terrorist assaults? Perhaps all three? How do we "win" in this situation? Is it even possible? What are our tactical and strategic objectives, and how have we been meeting those objectives? Nobody seems to know any answers to any of these questions -- including the president.
Get off the fence and make a choice. Are you a Conservative warmonger or a "cut and run" Liberal?
Posted by Tree Hugger on July 24, 2007 01:32 PMTree Hugger, I want to post an answer to you quickly and beat the crowd.
We are neither Conservative warmongers or "cut and run" liberals.
You can`t give us two false choices and expect an answer.
As to meeting the objectives, well no one seems to know what to do, that doesn`t mean we quit looking.
I want our troops home, quickly, I`m sorry for the Iraqis and damn sorry for what they have endured and will endure in the future.
We have to leave sometime. When? The enemy will see us leaving no matter how many years we stay.
Can you really envision us there in 2010? and not feel ill.?
Posted by Sharon B. on July 24, 2007 05:01 PMCharles B said "Help me out: What are the "fine points" the Captain made?"
My feelings exactly, not so much an argument, a narrative, or even just a collection of points really.
Just a jumble of incoherent babble.
Roger,
What is your definition of a neo-con?
Posted by Mountain Cat on July 26, 2007 07:33 AMTime after time after time members of the military return from Iraq and say that the media are telling a completely different story than what is really happening in Iraq. The left continues to tell the lie that the war over there is a failure. They said it would be a failure before we even got started, so to say anything otherwise today would show they were wrong back then. But of course they say that they were right back then and that they are right today. Never mind what is said by those who are actually THERE in Iraq. How would they know what is going on in Iraq, right? The leftist here know exactly what is going on over there because they just know. Why should anyone argue with them?
There is a letter to the editor from a guy who said he just went to the DMV to register as a Democrat and claims that he is a veteran of the war in Iraq and said that the Bush administration is lying about the true nature of the insurgency in Iraq. If indeed he really is a veteran of the war in Iraq, then he must be the extreme exception with regard to his attitude.
I am a member of the military and work with members of the military on a daily basis, both Army and Air Force. I have yet to hear any complaints from anyone returning from Iraq, or from those heading over there, or from those going again. I have not proof of this, but I think that letter to the editor is a fabrication. I think the letter came from a leftist who wants to make people believe that even service members are turning against the war to reinforce the lie that the war is a failure.
Of course, we keep hearing that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and that we still have not caught Osama bin Laden. Well, the Germans didn’t attack us a Pearl Harbor and we never caught Hitler either. So, the leftists must think we should not have conducted warfare against Germany and we must have failed during WWII.
We are not losing or failing in Iraq. Just as with the Vietnam War, the only place the war effort is a failure is at home.
Posted by Mountain Cat on July 26, 2007 08:17 AMSharon,
I agree with your points. I want us out of Iraq soon too.
But what I was trying to emphasize is that those who call themselves "Progressives" and "Libertarian" have much more in common with right-wing conservatives than they do with left-wing liberals.
Since most conservatives seem to support the unlimited continuance of the Iraq war, those on the left have a huge battle on their hands to bring the troops home.
Just look at Korea as an example of a possible future in Iraq. We're still there even though the war officially ended in 1953.
In fact, we never left the Middle East since the Gulf War in 1991. (Trust me. Over the past 15 years, I served tours in Ali Al Saleem, Saudi Arabia; Camp Doha, Kuwait; Al Udeid, Qatar; Akinci, Turkey; Balad and Baghdad, Iraq as a member of the US Air Force.)
My point here is -- our government has always been good at waging war. The sad thing is -- they seem to have forgotten how to leave once the war is over or the effort becomes too costly or futile to continue.
In addition to Iraq, we're still in Bosnia, Herzigovina and Afghanistan too. At this rate, we may end up with permanent military bases in every third-world country on the planet.
Posted by on July 26, 2007 11:51 AMOops, I forgot to put my name on the above post.
Posted by Tree Hugger on July 26, 2007 11:52 AMI know its an old cliche, but starting wars, especially this one, is like riding a tiger. No matter how hard it is to get on, it is nearly impossible to get off alive.
I put a lot of stock in what the military leaders say, usually after they retire, that this is an unwinnable war.
If Hillary had been president for the last 6 years, can you just imagine how the conserves would be howling for her blood?
Posted by Sharon B. on July 26, 2007 01:48 PM