Choir at dedication would be offensive
I read the article about Columbine shooting victim Isaiah Shoels’ aunt wanting her choir to sing at the dedication ceremony for the Columbine Memorial (“Columbine victim’s aunt upset choir not part of dedication,” Aug. 13), and I would have to disagree with her.
When this tragedy happened, I went to Columbine to pay my respects and have contributed money to help with the memorial.
I am an atheist and I would find it offensive if a gospel choir were to perform. I don’t believe in any god but I am still a good husband and father. I have a son who was a student at Columbine.
We can love and remember Isaiah without making it a church service.
Milo Ramirez, Fort Collins
Why can't you endure others appreciating what is comforting to them? Why must you be offended just because you don't believe as them? Have you no tolerance for the feeling and thoughts of others even though they don't march lockstep you? Are you really that bigoted? You can't just enjoy a melody and ignore, or even worse, tolerate words and music which isn't within your personal belief structure?
Intolerance is the hallmark of small minded bigots.
Your position of being offended by something which is not within your personal belief construct is offensive to me.
What ever happened to live and let live?
Posted by on August 22, 2007 12:51 AMHey, we got another closed minded bigot who wants the world to march according to his beliefs and to hell with everyone else's. Small wonder we can't get along with our neighbors anymore. If they don't act like we do or believe like we do we can't tolerate them. They are to be stopped from anything I don't approve of as it is offensive to me and will hurt my feelings (to hell with their feelings as only mine count). They can't do anything I don't agree with and they can only do that which I approve of. Tolerance is for the weak and I am strong therefore I am intolerant because I am right.
I think old Milo and Charles B are two peas in a pod. Both have the one and only true way to live life in our enlightened society and will not tolerant any deviance from that way since it is the right way.
I'm also an atheist and I think you are an intolerant bigot. Close your ears and appreciate the fact that someone else can find comfort in something in this world even if you reject the underlying beliefs. Their beliefs can't harm you nor change your mind from your own beliefs, don't be afraid or intolerant of other's consolation in life.
Posted by Intolerant of intolerance on August 22, 2007 01:35 AMBbbuuut, he contributed money to the memorial. He paid for the right not be offended.
Posted by on August 22, 2007 02:03 AMFunny, all the letter writers, in response to the original letter writer, seem to think it is okay that THEY be offended by another man's choice and preference. Funny thing, this world and its people.
Intolerant of intolerance wrote:
"I think old Milo and Charles B are two peas in a pod. Both have the one and only true way to live life in our enlightened society and will not tolerant any deviance from that way since it is the right way."
You're kidding right? I wasn't aware I had issued an opinion on the subject. If I had, it would be: Music/singing good.
I've been a musician for almost 20 years, and sing many songs with religious lyrics because they are great songs.
I sang a duet of "Amazing Grace" with my sister at my fathers funeral.
You are a presumptuous twit.
Posted by Charles B on August 22, 2007 06:33 AMIf anyone believes that a truly sincere, incidental, neither threatening nor right denying musical presentation inspired by love and devotion is an offense to them and their belief, that only goes to prove that their belief is tenuous at best.
If you truly believe in something nothing can change that belief but hard core, factual, provable and unarguable evidence that contradicts the foundation of and justification for that belief. Even then people have a hard time accepting the truth. Your belief apparently does not pass the test of it's validity if you consider a thing such as music a threat to that belief.
Posted by Allen Campbell on August 22, 2007 07:00 AMIt offends me to have to listen to people speak in spanish everywhere I go. I want that stopped too. Where do I send the check?
Posted by on August 22, 2007 07:11 AMMilo , You are a self proclaimed Atheist,that donated money to the Columnine Memorial,but feels since you paid something towards the funding,you have a right to stop a choir from singing?
You paid nothing to that memorial. The only people who paid were the victims.That is who the memoriial is for the families and victims.
Having a choir sing is not going to turn you into a raging religious zealot, I promise.
I am not a organized religion fan either,but find choir music and religious rock comforting at times.
What would you say if I told you VA Tech who lost 32 victims is having a concert of healing for the students and has invited a rapper named KAS.
His lyrics are full of shooting people,killing people,and lyrics like,Kill!, Kill! Kill!,in which the audience says Murder! Murder! Murder!.
I find that incredibly insensative to the victims of thr VA Tech nassacre. KAS also has a gun conviction.
Now as a outraged atheist who would you choose to be at a loved ones memorial.?
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 22, 2007 07:50 AMIntolerant of intolerance , Words have meanings. "Amazing Grace" has a strongly Christian religious meaning. And that is fine for Christians.
For others, the words can be offensive.
There are many words and ideas that those who preach tolerance find intolerably offensive. The "N" word is one of the words. "Pervert" is another.
Charles B, you are being disingenuous. I can think of many songs you would not sing at a funeral. "100 bottles of beer" and Hitler Youth songs being examples.
If we go back in history, we could find other mechanisms that millions of people found comforting. Like animal sacrifice.
Mr. Ramirez is entitled to his beliefs and feelings. So is Ms Shoels. However she is not entitled to call Mr. Ramirez a racist because he is not a Christian. The committee is charged with finding a middle ground. It is also charged with keeping the event at a reasonable length.
And just for kicks, since the memorial is on public property and will be publicly owned, there are 1st Amendment Issues.
I think you should reconsider your position.
Posted by Yaakov Watkins on August 22, 2007 08:37 AMYaakov, Just for kicks a publically funded university in Minnesota is being sued for not putting in footbaths for muslims in which footbaths are part of their religion.Public property.
A swift meat packing plant in Wisconsin is being sued for not stopping the assembly line in order to give Muslims time to get their prayer mats and pray.
All courtesty of the ACLU.
I think you should reconsider your position.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 22, 2007 08:51 AMCIGAA:
"What would you say if I told you VA Tech who lost 32 victims is having a concert of healing for the students and has invited a rapper named KAS."
You mean Nas? You know-nothing.
I guess that's what happens when you get your information about Hip-Hop from Bill "loufa" O'Reilly.
Posted by Charles B on August 22, 2007 09:17 AMBack, quite some time ago, when I was in school, we had some wonderful High School Choirs in Denver. I am not all that familiar with the available resources at Columbine High School in Jefferson County; but if there be a School Choir there, I should think they would be the finest possible source of music for a Memorial to their own.
As to the matter of tolerance. If the letter writer is going to be offended by something - anything - that memorializes another's life, perhaps he should find a nice little cave, way back up in the furthest wilderness, and set up his habitation there. I am sure no one would disturb, or offend, his sensibilities - or challenge his prejudices - there; or even be overly concerned about his continued existence, for that matter.
I went to free.napster .com and listened to his music and made up my own mind that this criminal who raps about killing in alot of his songs is inappropiate for a concert being held at a University that lost 32 people to a gunman.
NAS is not Hip-Hop , he is gangsta rap,huge difference.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 22, 2007 09:37 AMMilo, one question, why are your rights as an athiest more important than mine as a Christian. Is it not my right to hear this music if I want to. One of the things that bothers me the most about athiests is that they seem to think their rights should be paramont over the rights of others. I want the ACLU to represent me in my right to listen to Christmas carols on public grounds, I am a member of the public, or to listen to a gospel choir at a dedication of this memorial. What about my rights?
Posted by mickey on August 22, 2007 09:46 AMCIGAA:
Apparently you don't understand the difference between rapping about violence you experienced growing up and advocating violence.
Oh well...
Posted by Charles B on August 22, 2007 09:49 AMCharleB
"You mean Nas? You know-nothing."
Your self righteous condescension is agin bubbling to the surface like Mt Vesuvius, you pompous ass. Why can't you just stow your very tiresome self proclaimed superiority. It's the same old crap from you - you have to put people down to make your points and feel all warm and fuzzy about yourself.
Try using your intellect in an non offensive manner.
Kc
Posted by on August 22, 2007 09:55 AMThe word equality has been misused over and over when it is applied to things that are inherently unequal. Created equal does not mean all people are equal in all ways obviously. People are unequal in so many ways they can't be enumerated but, a few example are in athletic, intellectual, musical and working at different trades ability. Created equal does not canote equal ability in any way.
While we all are equal in the narrow definition that we are all equal as human beings but all human beings have diverse and various talents and abilities and needs.
It is in the needs area where definitions go through evolutionary changes over time due to the changes society goes through over time. One mans needs are not the same as anothers, life would be boring were that true.
It is impossible for the government to insure each individual's needs are met. If this were tried, all other things the government uses our tax money to do would be ignored. The total federal budget would not be enough to accomplish that.
If private businesses were required to insure every employees needs were met they would have to price their products or services so high the result would be bankruptcy.
The point is this, whatever your needs may be, they don't trump the public's need for, and the tax payments they make to insure the other responsibilities of government they rely on are met. The same thing goes for business but for slightly different reasons. The needs of employess do not trump the businesses' need to remain profitable and continue in business.
Anything to the contrary invites a condition which insures failure of both government and business. It is time the fractionalization of society was reversed. No budget can afford it when everybody insists their personal needs and preferences be accommodated.
Posted by Allen Campbell on August 22, 2007 10:36 AMYaakov:--
"Words have meanings. "Amazing Grace" has a strongly Christian religious meaning. And that is fine for Christians.
For others, the words can be offensive."
Why can't both sides be tolerant and let the other enjoy their comforts without taking offense to it? Whose "right" not to be offended trumps the other's right to enjoy, embrace their beliefs and mourn in their own manner? Can't both parties in this instance simply respect and honor the lives of those being memorialized without passing judgment on how the other should do so? Do to otherwise, I suggest, is to dishonor the victims being memorialized.
Why have we as society become so hypersensitive to our own individual beliefs and sensibilities we can't tolerate anything to the contrary even when it's not done to proselytize?
I submit that Aunt Shoals should drop the misplayed racism card in defending her desire to have a choir there; and, Mr. Ramirez should show some maturity and tolerance of the form of comfort sought by those not of his particular "faith". Both parties are wanting to be there to mourn the loss of the young innocent victims. Concentrate on that and not their own selfish desires.
Posted by Trinity on August 22, 2007 11:00 AMAre we really debating this? Really? My God what has happened to us as an amazing country and an amazing people? This is just sad beyond words.
I am certainly not a religious person, and find A LOT of faults with religion in general --- but why would it offend me that a a group choses to pay tribute to someone they loved, in their own way? Who cares if the tribute is in public?
Rather than being offended, why not open your mind, listen to the words, and think about what they mean to those singing them, and others hearing them? Gain some insight by what the people around you believe even if it's different than your own beliefs.
While traveling, I have seen ceremonies from dozens of religions, and have enjoyed what I learned by observing each.... why is it that you can't do the same?
Milo's letter proves of my hiding in the closet. Invoking god after the fact when an omniscient spook could have prevented the tragedy is exercise in futility. I commend Milo on his courage.
Posted by Richard Grimes r22037yahoo Risen ape/Deicide. Intelligent enough to be atheist but lack courage. on August 22, 2007 12:19 PMWhat's wrong with the High School Choir?
Growing up in Dallas, the "buckle on the bible belt", although a Christian, I grew up to distrust those folks who like to wear their religion on their sleeve.
You know the ones I'm talking about - they love to talk about jesus, and the bible and go to church every waking moment, and as soon as everyone's back is turned, they''ll steal from you and cheat you and lie to you like nobody else can.
If Milo is uncomfortable with superficial and ostentatious displays of religious fervor, maybe its because he has had similar negative experiences with people like this.
She's allowed to make a fool of herself and Milo is allowed to be uncomfortable with that.
I think Yaakov made a good point, in a very brief way, when he mentioned the length of the event. If everyone who wanted to gets to express their feelings, the service could last for years. We must draw a line somewhere and succumbing to the aunt's demands could open up this memorial service to a circus of lawsuits.
Posted by Stan Broyles on August 22, 2007 12:36 PMStan --
Kinda pathetic how everything revolves around lawsuits nowadays since no one has tolerance of anything beyond their own sensibilities and beliefs, and rejects diversity as offensive.
Why do we worry about radical Islamic terrorists destroying our society while we are tearing ourselves apart with "politically correct" and approved intolerance?
Mr. Ramirez is no less guilty of attempting to foist his personal beliefs on others than Ms. Shoals is in wanting her beliefs paraded in front of him.
There's room for both without either taking offense or generating asinine lawsuits of intolerance.
As someone said above, live and let live. Whether you embrace the promise of an afterlife or choose to reject it, this life we are living in now is too short to spend venting our personal intolerances on one another.
Posted by Trinity on August 22, 2007 01:00 PMTrinity,
I agree with you. Life is short and to everything there is a season and a time for every purpose under heaven. The question, I guess, is this the time for the purpose?
Charles B.
Dear Sir,
I am truly sorry that you are suffering a hemorrhoid flair-up. Perhaps a nice salt bath?
Christian Conspiracy:
Cutting and pasting a comment that lame on multiple threads?
Pretty sad.
(waiting for snappy comeback)
Posted by Charles B on August 22, 2007 04:17 PMIf hypersensitivity were an Olympic sport, Americans would be unbeatable. We've got people who are offended by God, people who are offended by failure to acknowledge God, people who are offended by other people's gods, and now we've got people who are offended by gospel music. Frankly, if everyone's sensitivities were observed, the memorial service would have to be cancelled for lack of any possible content that does not offend someone.
Posted by karen on August 22, 2007 05:09 PMKc:
I just happen to know that "Can I Get an Amen", who didn't even know the name of the rapper he was condemning, got his little rant straight from the lips of Bill O'Reilly. He wouldn't even know that Nas existed if it weren't for the self-righteous buffoon who put the words in his mouth.
As for this:
"you have to put people down to make your points and feel all warm and fuzzy about yourself."
Don't you think it's a bit disingenuous coming on the heels of this?:
"Your self righteous condescension is again bubbling to the surface like Mt Vesuvius, you pompous ass."Posted by Charles B on August 22, 2007 05:47 PM
Charles, IT Could not have been a typo? An "N" and a "K" ? So based on that you attacked her? Could you not asked to clarify? Could you not been a gentleman and given the benefit of the doubt? Have some GD manners.
I do not always agree with Amen nor do I subscribe to any religion, but that was uncalled for and should be apologized in the name of civility
If you can't stand the heat...
Posted by Charles B on August 22, 2007 06:41 PMI never said I was against all choirs or someone singing . It's just that I feel that the dedication should be to remember ALL of those who were victim. There should not be this big deal to honor just one. They ALL deserve our respect. Growing up , both of my Grandfathers were ministers and I have been exposed to organized religon. I am now an adult and can make my own choices. I am an American !
Posted by Milo on August 22, 2007 06:53 PMMilo:-
Perhaps other parents agree with the Shoals but are too afraid of intolerance like that exhibited by you to speak up. Lighten up, dude. 5 minutes to "objecitonable" music isn't going to corrupt you or be a big deal. And I have a feeling that Ms. Shoals is an American too. You both sound pretty selfish and petty.
Posted by on August 22, 2007 07:19 PMHas anyone considered that the gospel choir and those who want a more religious dedication ceremony can arrange one on their own? Wouldn't be a hard thing to do and they could actually have prayers and religious messages. No one could object to that and everyone would be happy. Is independent thought and action something we never consider anymore?
Posted by momma y on August 22, 2007 10:00 PMMr. Ramirez is intitled to his belief. However, we live in a democracy where the majority rules. It seems that this country is bending over backwards to keep from offending a very small group of people who claim not to believe in God. So they are allowed to offend the majority of people who do believe in God. What is wrong with this picture?
Mr. Ramirez is intitled to his belief. However, we live in a democracy where the majority rules. It seems that this country is bending over backwards to keep from offending a very small group of people who claim not to believe in God. So they are allowed to offend the majority of people who do believe in God. What is wrong with this picture?
I wonder how many, Oh My God" were said that day.
I wonder how many students and teachers were praying as they lay shot or watching someone die.
I wonder how many parents were saying ," Please God let my child be allright."as they rushed to the school.
I wonder how many people said, " Oh my God " watching it on TV.
I wonder how many Athiest's were there that day.
I wonder if Athiest's were claiming it was God's fault or the school's or the gunmen's or society.
I can say this with certainty. If their was an Atheist student,teacher or parent involved in that tragic day they were praying for themselves or loved ones.
.
Charles B.
Since most of your posts yesterday were arrogant, condescending, and with the dame tone, I thought I was making a point by cutting and pasting the same reply. Sorry if my obviously sad attempt at wit was missed by someone of your soaring intellect.
Before I get dinged, I meant to type same, not dame.
Posted by Christian Conspiracy on August 23, 2007 08:36 AMTo be honest with everybody , my opinion as well as those who have responded to my coments, just don't matter . I am lucky because every day when I come home after work , I have all my children. Sometimes we get on each others nerves , but I can hug them at days end.
Posted by on August 23, 2007 05:39 PMsorry , forgot to add my name.above coment from MILO
Posted by Milo on August 23, 2007 05:42 PMCan I Get an Amen wondered:
"I wonder if Athiest's were claiming it was God's fault..."
Quite possibly the most ignorant statement I've seen written on this forum.
Posted by Charles B on August 23, 2007 05:59 PMCharles B, I've had a rough week. I am a mother of 2 bright wonderful children.I am usually a calm person.
Which has nothing to do with what I am going to say too you. Something I've never said to anyone before.Since you seem zeroed in on attacking me ,I have this response,
SHUT THE *UCK UP!!!!!!
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 24, 2007 08:03 AMNot true Kathleen: We live in a democracy where the Constitution rules and if the majority takes the opposite ground, the minority wins.
Of course, The Supremes tell us what the Constitution says while Bush tells us it is just a "goddamn piece of paper.
However in excess of two centuries the Constitution has prevailed over the majority. The majority wins if it is in consort with the Constitution.
Posted by Richard Grimes r22037@yahoo.com, Deicide ffrf.org. Web: http://www.geocities.com/r22037/think.html on August 24, 2007 10:18 AMI love you, Richard.
Posted by -J- on August 24, 2007 01:39 PMCan I Get An Amen asked me to:
"SHUT THE *UCK UP!!!!!!"
I didn't "attack" you CIGAA. I was just pointing out the idiocy of your statement. Do you know what atheism is?
If you're going to play on this forum, I suggest you learn to roll with the punches and not take it so seriously.
If you can't stand the heat, as they say...
Have a good weekend! Take the kids to the park or something...
Posted by Charles B on August 24, 2007 07:13 PMI have to say, I am simply appalled at the level of illiteracy displayed here on a daily basis. I weep for you (LOTS of you), and I weep for your children.
Granted there are worse problems to have in life...it's not the greatest of all sins. But really...to post on a site where so many people are bound to read your opinions and ramblings; don't you feel that it takes away from your point of view if you can not properly spell words and form phrases with 3rd grade competency levels?? Blathering on like the village idiots. I'm embarrassed for you.
Also, I certainly hope you people do something with your lives besides sit at your keyboards bitching and moaning about stuff. GET UP, and do something good and useful, and do it WITHOUT getting paid. GIVE of yourselves to make life on the planet just a tiny bit better.
www.dosomething.org
Yo 10:31: I like your letter: Pray that Hank and Keith read it. I viewed Bill Moyer on PBS last night. W. Bush tells the illegal immigrant that he needs canon fodder in Iraq so offers them a $20,000 bonus to sign up and in two years they can apply for citizenship. Do Hank and Keith watch PBS? No. They know the “facts.” They don gonna need no stinkin’ PBS to tell them the facts.
Hank and Keith, et al, just kick back and utter: "Get the facts," in bad English and lack of spelling skill. They curse the democrats predicated on their knowledge of the facts.
Yes, 10:31: It is a bitter pill to read Hank and Keith and their ilk; however, there appears often very enjoyable rhetoric that makes this forum worthwhile.
When one is old or incapacitated, this forum provides entertainment. Don't be too harsh on all of us ~~~ if you will, single out those whom you might label pricks and pussies, or some other put down. I don’t think we all belong in the category of persona non grata (For Hank, Keith, ilk, that means persons not welcome).
Nonetheless, irrespective, but never irregardless, it falls upon me to champion Hank and Keith and duel to the death anyone who would stifle them, irrespective of their annoyance.
Yo 10:31, you could show some balls and submit, at least, your initials.
Posted by Richard Grimes Risen Ape/Deicide Free copy: ffrf.org ( r22037yahoo) on August 25, 2007 10:52 AMActually, Richard Grimes, there are many I love to read and joust with in this forum; you being one of the more enjoyable, and at times, most frustrating. I will take your double edged sword any time!
I shall remain anonymous in this reply also as I don't care to paint a bullseye on myself for some of our more infamous ad hominen attackers to shoot at. I apologize to anyone who feels offended and mislabeled by my spontaneous rant of 10:31, but please do realize that it was just that -- a rant building the last few days of reading too much name calling without being couched in a legitimate argument or point of view.
Posted by on August 25, 2007 01:50 PMNO Charles you attacked at multiple points with Amen and your response? "If you cant stand the heat....."
Charles that is not a pacifier you are sucking on you whining cry baby. Put that plug back where you found it and use it for the reason you bought it. If you are still uptight, then change the batteries..............
Posted by on August 25, 2007 04:00 PM