Connecting the CSAP dots
We should connect the dots between lower CSAP scores (“Disappointing scores by Colorado students,” Aug. 1) and the flight to the suburbs.
Having been a Douglas County planning commissioner, I listened to a great deal of public testimony. Undergirding all of it was the desire of parents to live in an area where their kids could get a good education and participate in extracurricular activities that are safe and healthful.
And it is those same kids who perform well on tests and go on to college.
As a city, Denver is hemmed in and cannot grow horizontally; it must become more dense and grow vertically. It cannot do this with convention centers, stadiums, airports and museums. Right now, light rail is providing an escape route out of the city.
What must be done is fix the school problem and create a reason for people to move back to the urban core. Otherwise, Denver is going to look like a black hole.
Transforming the current school system is going to require nothing short of the transformation from a caterpillar to a butterfly.
Fran Miller, Parker
You want to transform Denver schools overnight? First hire a top notch legal firm to represent all teachers in any lawsuit filed over classroom actions. Next notify all students and parents that there are new rules in place. Disrupting a class will result in the suspension or expulsion of the students responsible. Refusal to attend class or arrive on time will assign a student to a special class (or school) where they will have a chance to earn their way back to the regular school by academic performance. Rather than being grouped by age, students will be grouped by ability in each subject. Students in need of intensive remedial instruction will be placed in special classes where individual lesson plans will be developed. Again, this privledge will only be granted to those who actually attend classes.
The core classes will be reading with comprehension and writing, computation with understanding of the four basic operations, the basics of science and a mixed civics class with history, social systems and other like subjects taught as a combination. As the older students gain skills they may add classes they find interesting so long as they continue to improve. In every case the final authority in the classroom will be the teacher. That person will make the assignments, teach the class and determine if a student needs more help, more discipline or a different school. The legal firm will be there to provide a deterrent for those who scream lawsuit when they think someone's feelings MIGHT have been hurt. Teachers will get together at the schools to choose their textbooks, prepare the class plans and combine their talents so the students will have the best opportunity. Once word gets out there will be kids, or at least parents, beating down the doors to get a good education in a system where the classes are made up of kids who are there to learn because those kids who don't want to be educated are not cheating the other students out of class time. Team sports will only allow students who are making progress to participate. The judge of performance: The classroom teacher. It would be nice if you made the best effort to have the math subjects taught by teachers whose main education was mathematics; English by English specialists etc so the teacher would have a deep understanding. That may not be possible at first because some, math teachers in particular, are in demand and can go where they wish. After a while you would be able to pick and choose the best of those teachers too.
Give it a try, oh, you might talk to the unions about cutting the adminstrational jobs by 2/3 and sending them back to the schools, with an appropriate pay cut, to handle the paperwork like attendence, filing federal papers and other pencil pushing time wasters.
To simplify: put the teachers in control and let the kids who are there to learn do so. Give the disruptive elements a special chance for an education but only one. After that you won't have a problem, just the best solution. Of course, when vouchers are approved, be prepared to get flooded with kids whose parents can't afford or don't want a private school. They will pick the best public schools they can find. It will be Denver.
Posted by momma y on August 6, 2007 12:54 AMwe can do what momma y brings up and it would help alot. giving the teachers more control less interference from the union and reduce the over paid administrators would allow more of our tax money to get to the supplies needed in the schools.
We also need to teach classes like they were 20 years ago, in English. what other group of immigrants demands that everything be in their native language? I can't think of any.
I don't know if all of momma y's proposals are workable or desirable, but I applaud her for taking the time to provide a very substantive letter, something not that common in the forum.
Her comments about letting the teacher's be in control reminds me of a current situation in which the school district which my granddaughter attends refuses to allow the elementary school children to bring home the books they use in class to learn math. The reason given: the parents are not qualified to use those books because they have not had the proper training in how to use them. Translation: parents are not capable to helping their children with the math homework.
You may be sure that this policy does not emanate from the teachers. How stupid would they be to discourage conscientious parents from helping the teacher teach math to her students? It emanates from two sources: the book publishers and the administrative office. The book publishers tell the administrative office that the math program their books cover do not lend themselves to parent participation. The administrative office, always looking for an opportunity to wield its power and arrogance, jumps at this.
Encouraging parents to actively participate in their children's education has been a goal of intelligent people for much longer than I can remember. So, now the publishers and administrators come along and want to veto that policy and exclude parents from the learning process.
It is very important for those parents to find out about policies such as this absurd one and to then be willing to challenge the policies and the arrogant people behind them. I do not want to name this school district because I am presently pursuing an effort to have it change that policy and I think naming it at this point would not be appropriate. But the school superintendent has reluctantly agreed that interested parents "probably" should have the opportunity to have the benefit of the books. I am to appear before the school board shortly to ask it to actively participate in changing the policy and to encourage rather than discourage parents to do what the school district keeps saying it wants parents to do but prevents them from doing.
The books I am referring to are the workbook containing the problem and the reference book containing what algorithms, today's word for the way to solve the problems. They were written for, in my case, fourth and fifth graders to use and understand. So how rational is it to say that parents need special training to use them?
It should be obvious that if teachers were in the driver's seat they would quickly do away with this arrogant and abusive policy. So momma y's point is well-taken. It would be worthy comedy material for a teacher to say to a parent, "please don't try to help your child with her math". When the school district policy says that, it ain't funny, it's sick.
I myself am a quite reluctant activist. After I got the school district to provide me with the books so I could work with my granddaughter during this summer, which has proved to be a most delightful and productive experience, I thought maybe that since I've got mine I should just let well enough alone. But my conscience got the better of me and decided that since I have a great interest in children, and have spent most of my retirement years working with them, I had an obligation to advocate in their behalf.
I urge parents who have concerns such as I had to not just complain to each other but to take their complaints to the powers that be.
Posted by Truth on August 6, 2007 07:57 AMTruth: you said "You may be sure that this policy does not emanate from the teachers" The TRUTH is that policy in public schools does emanate from teachers throuigh there union, which has veto and approval power over most if not all issues.
and "I myself am a quite reluctant activist."
I can tell how reluctant you are by your other posts.
AF
Fran, I know your comments are mostly about education but it galls me to no end this idea that children can't/don't live and thrive in Denver proper. That Denver is somehow unsafe. My neighborhood is full of children, including 3 of my own, and guess what? They are involved in "safe and healthful" extracurriculars either provided through the schools or Denver Parks & Rec. We ride our bikes here and roller skate and swim and do everything that those oh-so-precious Douglas County kids do. We get to take advantage of those museums and stadiums because we live closer and don't waste gas getting there. It's the elitism and snobbery of your comments that make me not interested in moving down south no matter how excellent the schools.
Fran, I know your comments are mostly about education but it galls me to no end this idea that children can't/don't live and thrive in Denver proper. That Denver is somehow unsafe. My neighborhood is full of children, including 3 of my own, and guess what? They are involved in "safe and healthful" extracurriculars either provided through the schools or Denver Parks & Rec. We ride our bikes here and roller skate and swim and do everything that those oh-so-precious Douglas County kids do. We get to take advantage of the museums and stadiums because we live closer and don't waste gas/time getting there. It's the elitism and snobbery of your comments that make me not interested in moving down south no matter how excellent the schools.
V-O-U-C-H-E-R-S
Competition and free market forces will get those scores up. Monopolies always produce inferiror product quality because those in control simply don't have to care or work at it. There are no consequences for their failure. The results are very predictable.
P.S. I still haven't heard about anyone getting canned for producing those lousy results.
Posted by Hank on August 6, 2007 09:22 AMTruth , You and I have discussed this issue before and I agree with you about not giving the resources to parents to help their children.It is an uphill battle to get any help through the schools for anything.
Their favorite excuse is ,administration rules,my hands are tied.
I would like to know when and where the school board meeting will be so I can try to be there and support what your doing. I also have the same concerns and others.
As for the people who blame the teachers union for the policies that are made you are mistaken.It is the administration who makes the absurd policies.
I'll give you another example of administration policy,it has to do with the way the children are graded.
My child was in 1st grade last school year.She was assessed at 2nd grade level and above in all areas before beginning the school year.I didn't fight skipping her because she needed to work on social skills,because her kindergarten teacher did everything in her power to crush her spirit and self esteem.
She flourished in 1st grade and had an excellent teacher who worked hard to bring her out of her shell. She now participates in class and loves helping others who are behind.
While she was in 1st grade she kept getting sraight A's though it's a different letter they use,and 2' s within the main subject's ,which mean working towards the standard. The subgrades can be 1-4. I asked the teacher why all the 2's since she was way ahead in the subjects. Her answer was they could not give her a 4 which means mastered that part of the suject because the other students have not been taught that yet ,so they have to grade her on what the class hasn't learned instead of what she knows.I'm hoping this policy does not follow them all the way through 12 grade. How are they supposed to get into college with grades based on what the class knows instead of the individual knows?
Another example of their rules. My daughter now going into 2nd grade has tested 5th grade in reading and comprehension,100%efficiency in math,can spell better than my now 5th grader and is ahead in writing.
I requested that she be skipped to 3rd grade.
The answer I recieved in the mail was no.
Their reasons for rejecting my request was even though she is completely past the 2nd grade curriculum her writing is not quite up to par and her social skills are not what they think she should be,even though she has made lots of friends and alot of the kids come to her for help on their school work.
The other reason was if they skipped her past 2nd it would only put her academically in the middle of 3rd grade at the beginning of the school year.
That doesn't make sense to me because I wanted to skip her to 3rd because it would challenge her since she already knows the 2nd grade curriculum.What is wrong with starting 3rd grade in the middle of the grade acedemically. How do they know she will test in the middle?
Again I am going to fight their absurd policy.I am also trying to get her and my 5th grader out of that school.That will be my next battle.
Everything with this school is a battle. I have been fighting for years to get them to educate my child at her level and to stop dumbing her down to the level of the class. No offense to the other students that are trying to learn.
Truth , I would like to be their at the school board meeting to support what you are doing. It is a noble cause.
Why do we need to fight so hard to get our kids an education?
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 6, 2007 10:49 AMAmen,
Do you cut and paste your response to every education-based letter? I think I have read about your children being refused advancement in almost every CSAP oriented discussion on this website. I don't understand why you spend such energy on a fight that you don't seem to be winning. You either like to fight or truly don't want what is best for your kids. DPS has a little something called "Choice". What that means is you can CHOICE into a different school. Amazing really. If your local school isn't cutting it for your child (or maybe only you have the issue), then CHOICE into a different one. And just because a child can do upper-level work doesn't mean that child should advance a grade-level. It might be okay in elementary school, but probably you'd be regretting it come jr high or high school when social maturity is very important.
And as for the folks who constantly toot the vouchers/charter school horn. Hmm. A charter school opened a few years ago right down the street. Now to hear all of you talk, this school should be rated Excellent and having stellar CSAP scores. Guess what? No. My average DPS school has higher scores. So really, I don't think vouchers/charters are all that b/c parents think it is a quick fix for little Johnny and a better education yet all the societal woes that DPS has to contend with just follow little Johnny to his charter school and now they have to deal with it too. Suddenly the charter school doesn't look all that different from the neighborhood school. Funny, huh?
Posted by Stella on August 6, 2007 11:21 AMSheila, My school district has the option of changing schools too. All of the schools including Charters that are doing very well are full and have very long waiting lists. Their are very few schools that fall into the great school category.
As far as my children are concerned. What is wrong with keeping your child working and achieving all that they can be? If they are smarter than their peers ,am I supposed to let them sit in a class for a whole year to be dumbed down?
If my last name was Rodriguez or Romero my child wouldn't be having a problem of trying to learn more than the teachers and school are willing to teach her.If my child had one of those last names and was doing as well as she is ,she would be recieving a better education.So she is stuck in a dumbed down education because little Jose can't read,write or behave in school.So all the schools efforts go to those children while the ones who are well behaved and ahead are ignored.
All I am aking for is my children to be educated on their level not the stupid kids level.
While we have students demanding they have the right to in-state tuition even if their illegal. I can't get my kids a decent K-12 education because they are so focused on the mexican kids because those are the children bringing down the CSAP scores.
I will fight for what is best for my children. Any parent that doesn't or sends their child to school thinking they are getting a comeplete education and leave it up to the school to raise their children,shouldn't be a parent.
After reading your response to my post,I understand you better.
Sheila you are one of the Denver snobs.I've been around enough of them to know.
Careful don't stick your nose too far up in the air, you might drown.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 6, 2007 02:27 PMI don't know how you can label me a "snob" based on one comment. Trust me, I am not.
No, AF, that policy does not emanate from the teachers. You speak out of ignorant prejudice. I speak out of having looked into the situation so that I know what the facts are. You need to learn to think and not just see if your knee is jerking.
Amen, I have no interest in a person of your narrow minded and bigoted nature supporting what I am doing. Your reference to people with Spanish names being uneducated or unintelligent is out of the sewer you live in.
Thank you for your offer, Amen, but I consider you to be highly bigoted and would not want to associate with you. Your claim that anyone with a Spanish last name is uneducated or not intelligent is out of the sewer. You could stand some education yourself.
Posted by Truth on August 6, 2007 04:01 PMOne of these days, Denver will finally get weary of trying to "reform" its corrupted, smelly public school system. We are Denver natives who got tired of it 20 years ago and left. Our kids have since graduated with High Honors in Bailey. As for DPS -- still in the toilet, just where it was 20 years ago. Not to stifle anyone's hopest, but -- we don't believe a single word anybody over there says. They just want to retire on the public dole and live as many years in elite leisure as possible. Schoolchildren are the LAST things on their minds, and it shows.
Every year, and year after year.
This uncontrolled local entity has soured us on state government in general -- on lawyers in particular -- and made us quite jaded about The System. I'm sad to say that if we could live our lives over again, it wouldn't be in Colorado -- simply because of the way the state never controls this nasty school district.
Again, here is the mindset that only suburban kids can get educated and go to college. 20 years ago, I graduated magna cum laude from TJ (DPS) and earned a half-tuition academic scholarship and graduated with a degree in English lit. Many of my classmates are now doctors, researchers, professors, lawyers, etc. Many of the city's power elite currently send their kids to East. DSA....kids from all over the Metro area are clamoring to get in. But I forgot...only suburban kids/parents have what it takes to go to college and care about education and all that jazz...
Posted by on August 6, 2007 05:43 PMTruth, I went to the principal of my children's school last year and asked him what was going on because there was a huge drop in CSAP scores from the year before. He told me , "It is the jump in latino students we have gotten last year and he didn't see it getting much better next year." There has been very little difference from last year to this year.
My children's school has 43% latino children enrolled.Guess what the percentage of free lunches given out is? 43%
In both my children's classes every year there are 2 or 3 latino children that disrupt the class everyday. They have called the teachers bitches,whore's,told them to go to hell,F you and have bullied one of my daughters.This is everyday.
I see what I see. The principal has even said the school is going downhill with the rise of latino students. They all are not bad and I'm not saying that. I volunteer and many want to learn and are sweet lovable children.
However I am not a bigot. i see what has been going on in the schools. More money for latino's and less money for the rest. That is a fact.The Principal even told me they get more money per latino student than other students.
Calling me a bigot for wanting my children to have a good education as well as all other students is wrong.Students should not recieve lesser of an education because the are not latino. You know damn well they cater to this group.
For some reason you have blinders on. I know the situation in my childrens school.
Why am I bigoted and narrow minded because I want my kids educated?
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 6, 2007 09:59 PMWhat school district are you in, Amen?
Posted by on August 7, 2007 07:28 AMAmen... The reason Truth calls you bigoted ect, is because he/she is pro-illegal and will not remove the blinders to see the elephant in the room.
I am hearing the exact complaints from parents of other students in and around the metro area concerning illegals and the dumbing down of American students to accomodate the Mexican kids.
If something isn't done to eliminate the influx of illegals in our public school systems nationwide, our American kids will continue to suffer academically.
If you can afford to, GET OUT now while your children are in their formative years. There are schools in this state and out of this state where your children can still get a decent education.
Sorry, but, DPS is not conducive to education for the American child.
Posted by A on August 7, 2007 07:44 AMAmen: "Calling me a bigot for wanting my children to have a good education as well as all other students is wrong."
You are right, Amen. If anyone called you a bigot for wanting your children to have a good education, that would be wrong.
But let's be clear about why I called you a bigot. It was because of this highly bigoted, and very unintelligent comment:
"If my last name was Rodriguez or Romero my child wouldn't be having a problem of trying to learn more than the teachers and school are willing to teach her.If my child had one of those last names and was doing as well as she is ,she would be recieving a better education.So she is stuck in a dumbed down education because little Jose can't read,write or behave in school.So all the schools efforts go to those children while the ones who are well behaved and ahead are ignored."
You put all the students with Spanish names in a lower category. Clearly bigoted. Clearly unintelligent. Clearly wrong.
That comment is not unlike a number of comments you regularly make in which you denigrate people of hispanic heritage.
Posted by Truth on August 7, 2007 09:25 AMTruth you need to actully take the blinders off and really read my post.
I said if my last name was Rodriguez or Romero my child, ( Here's where it get's tricky ) wouln't be having a problem of trying to learn MORE THAN TEACHER'S AND SCHOOL ARE WILLING TO TEACH.
Meaning if they had a student of latino heritage that was excelling like my children they would definately be teaching to that latino child's level and not trying to dumb him down. I've seen it happen. Their is a latino girl in my chidren's school who is smart and bright she get's tutors and extra curriculum to keep her ahead.
So she is recieving a better education than my children because of her latino heritage.
She recieves special treatment and my children do not.
I was making a point of what I see not what I think. This is what is happening in the schools.
American citizens get a dumbed down education,while latino students get tutors and stepped up teaching if they are smart and there are some that are very bright.
They also get tutors if they are not working at grade level.They also get free summer school. Which my Principal told me latinos get first slots then others and it is hard to get the latinos students to show up once they are signed up.
You call me a bigot for seeing what is really going on in the public schools?
You have always been anti-american.anti-laws. and anti-anything that does not cater to the latino population legal or illegal. I think you could fall under the umbrella of being a bigot against all things American.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 7, 2007 10:55 AMAmen... Truth just absolutely CANNOT and WILL NOT accept the truth!! Your telling it like it is in the schools!
If Truth, Anderson, and the rest of the bleeding hearts who post on these blogs, don't choose to believe you, then they can continue putting there faith in La Raza and other pro-llegal websites for thier daily updates.
The facts about DPS and the children of illegals speak volumes!!! Just read the RMN in the last few months. Gov Ritter is very concerned about DPS. Well, DUH!!!
Are these elected officials just totally stupid or what?? Do they expect academic excellence from illerate foreign kids? Low CSAP scores, drop out rates, free this, free that, for Illegals etc, ect
Because our blind elected so-called leaders can't see past their money grubbing and special interest noses, they see nothing wrong with not enforcing our immigration laws and refuse to kick these invaders out of this country.
(So much for what the American citizens want!) I don't speak for all Americans but, you remember Amen...... no amnesty, no path to citizenship, go back get in line, workplace enforcement, and on and on and on!
Because of the handouts and sanctuary city mentality from those in power, the illegals actually think they are entitled to everything American!!
America, for the illegals, is just one big teet to be sucked dry!!!!
Be proud Bush, McCain, Kennedy, and the majority of Democrats who voted for amnesty in the Senate. We beat you on that one..but, you will sneak it by one way or the other in the future!!
It is sad that American parents like yourself, have to fight like mad to try and get a decent edcucation for their American born children and foreign children are being given special treatment! (Unbeliievable isn't it??)
Any American who defends this onslaught of foreign illegals in our society is repugnant to say the least!!!
Amen.... keep up the GOOD fight!! More people than you know, are with you!!!
Thank You A , All I want is my children to get an education,and I get slammed for it.
The schools complain the parents aren't involved with their children's education,don't make sure they do homework,don't volunteer,don't make sure assignments are turned in on time,and don't make sure their children behave in school.
I do all this and more and they are retaliating against me because I want them to educate my children on their level.
As soon as you ask for something they should be providing for your children they don't want you around anymore. Why? Because you have pulled the curtain open and found out The Wizard of Oz is a fake.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 7, 2007 01:50 PMAgain, Amen, what school district are you in?
Curious minds want to know...
Adams 12 Five Star School District.
When I moved here I thought the 5 star meant somrthing good. Later I found out it means the 5 different cities it covers.
Sort of like booking a Hotel Suite at The Ritz and ending up at Motel 6,without the light left on.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 8, 2007 08:33 AMTruth's granddaughter who is behind in her studies also attends Adams 12,but in a different city.He gets to complain about his granddaughter not getting a book to bring home so he can help her get up to grade level and he's going to the school board meeting to complain about his kid not getting help for her education.
However when I complain I am a bigot and my kids are not entitled to a stepped up curriculum because they are smart.
Truth can't handle the real truth.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on August 8, 2007 08:39 AM