Illegal immigrants
The United States is our family.
States, cities, municipalities are our spouse, sons, and daughters.
Legal immigrants are our extended family.
Illegal immigrants represent those things that hinder our ability to take care of our family financially - whether that be alcohol, drugs, gambling, illicit relationships, etc.
Services (health, education, welfare, etc.) provided to illegal immigrants at tax payers’ expense equates to denying our family in order to support our bad habit. The bad habit becomes everything - nothing else is important.
Eventually the money is gone, the family is gone. Addictions don’t go away - people will typically seek help only when it’s too painful not to.
I believe if we want our nation to remain the wonderful place it is - we need to put pressure on Mexico to implement changes that will support their citizens in their country.
Legal immigrants; guest workers - welcome! America is a wonderful country.
I wish you all the success you deserve.
Congress - don’t ask me (the tax payer) to support your addiction i.e.
This letter has not been edited.
Here is another analogy, Illegal Immigration is like having a splinter, The War in Iraq is a brain tumor that is going to kill you. You are wasting your time worrying about a splinter and ignoring your tumor.
Posted by on August 20, 2007 02:11 PM2:11's brain tumor hasn't yet interfered with his fine motor coordination,but it has pretty well toasted his ability to focus on what's important....The only commonality between the immigration crisis and our Mideast venture is that the Anti-American Left is determined to shape events in those arenas to our greatest possible disadvantage.
Posted by Jimminy on August 20, 2007 03:13 PMAnon,
How did you come to your analogical conclusion? How is the war in Iraq similar to a brain tumor? How, as a society, will it kills us? It is more likely the medicine, i.e. the American public and it's representatives (with regard to the lack of direction, strategy, patience, foresight, and understanding of the region) that will be our demise, than the event itself.
Whereas the lack of a sound immigration plan has the very severe potential to destroy the infrastructure, security, logistics, economy, and identity of the Untied States. A failure to recognize that, may be your own brain tumor...
Posted by Take a page from History on August 20, 2007 03:28 PM2:11 Try thinking with your head. More American's have been killed by our illegal aliens than have died in the war. The war is far cheeper than illegal immigration, and the social costs are not comparable. No one likes war, but there are those who like the illegals. Our country will survive the Iraq war but not being the welfare system for every third world country. The mass influx of illegal aliens is a cancer that will kill the patient. These people have never fought for freedom, they just took it. And they take it for granted, just like 2:11
Posted by T on August 20, 2007 03:32 PMWow-
T... I'd like to see your stats on death rate and cost. I would beg to differ with your logic, but am however open to it if you can provide hard numbers from an unbiased source.
For the rest: "Wag the Dog..."
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 03:40 PMAn Unbiased source? What a crock. All sources are biased. It just depends on what side of the aisle you choose to stand on? Unbiased also means that you are unwilling to look at all facets of a story and come up with conclusions based upon alternative data.
Also an excuse to dissagree with any story that you choose not to believe in nor understand because it does not fit your personal learned beliefs. What a crock
Also if you wanted the information, especially on deaths, then LOOK it up.
Posted by on August 20, 2007 04:07 PM4:03??
What the heck? All I asked for was some hard data... not just some crud from a liberal or conservative think tank... Maybe some official reported crime stats compared to the pentagon's casuality report.
Maybe an official cost breakdown of deportation vs. legal residency... economic data on wage increase vs. cost of living. I didn't realize that asking for facts was the same thing as denying your points.
That's the problem with these debates. People are SO emotionally charged, they throw logic and facts out the window. Sorry kids, give me the black and white cost vs. benifit analysis on BOTH sides and I will choose from there. But all of this emotional garbage and personal attacks are totally counter productive.
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 04:12 PMI know this is as morbid as a train wreck, but what the hell, I will bite. JB what sources would you find sponge worthy for proving the number of deaths here associated with Illegals?
Posted by on August 20, 2007 04:12 PMJB what you were not meaning what you said? Then why use "wag the dog" terminology?
If I misunderstood, then I apologize, but as you say about emotions, there is an overwhelming urge for those to "challenge" and then fight over the source regardless if the source is correct or not.
Posted by on August 20, 2007 04:16 PMHere is a fact:
Elvira Arellano was DEPORTED. Who is next?
Posted by truthy on August 20, 2007 04:22 PMI use "Wag the Dog" because that's EXACTLY what the immigration debate has become. That's not to say it isn't an important issue, but seriously, not much has changed over the last 20-30 years here... our borders were no more secure then. But magically, about 2 or so years ago, it's all ANYONE can talk about. This is a typical strategy for politicos to detract from one problem... you just "create" another.
Based on data I've seen, it is far more cost effective to grant a path toward legal residency and a guest worker program, than the HUGE cost logistically of rounding up illegal immigrants and deporting them. It also, based on what I've seen, would have a very negative impact in manufacturing, agriculture and few other industries... so when you factor in the decrease in production and potential increase in consumer prices, which historically outpaces increase in wages... it seems like guest worker/ legal residency is more cost effective...
But, if someone can show me DATA to show otherwise, I'm happy to look at it. Just don't show me a bunch of crap generated from thinly-veiled political groups... from EITHER side.
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 04:26 PMJB,
You asked about numbers...
Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of almost $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household.
Among the largest costs are Medicaid ($2.5 billion); treatment for the uninsured ($2.2 billion); food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches ($1.9 billion); the federal prison and court systems ($1.6 billion); and federal aid to schools ($1.4 billion).
(source: National Research Council "The New Americans" and Center for Immigration Studies)
So, in taxes, it is estimated to cost the United States $10.4 billion / year. According to the partisan National Priorities Project, the current cost of the Iraq War is $454 billion over the last 5 years. Of that military money, it may be broken down as such:
$152.2 billion Operations and Maintenance
$110.8 billion Military personnel (wages)
$84.2 B Procurement
$73.2 B R&D
$12.6 B Military Construction
$4.1 B Family Housing
$2.4 B Working capital
An additional $23.4 B is shared with the Dept. of Energy on Nuclear Warhead production, research, and maintenance
(source GAO - Military Budget FY07)
I'm not saying T was correct or not, just providing you some numbers. It looks to me as if he was indeed incorrect, as far as fiscal numbers go.
Take a page-
I'm confused. Your numbers support my side, not T's... although I never really wanted to compare war numbers...
According to what you've provided, the war has cost slightly more than $100B per year... and illegal immigrants just over $10B per year.
Did I miss something? Not being rude, just trying to figure out if perhaps you forgot to hit "paste" somewhere or if I'm overlooking something.
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 04:59 PMSorry-
I DID miss something!!! It is getting late in the day! You said "incorrect." My bad.
Guess my eyes need to take a break!
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 05:02 PMI just LOVE how people say, illegals cost us only 10 BILLION a year.
and people wonder why our country is full of mouth breathing nitwits
Posted by Fresh on August 20, 2007 05:17 PMFresh-
Who said only?
My mistake
"and illegal immigrants just over $10B per year. "
as if 10 billion is nothing.
JB - if you want the illegals - set up a fund and pay for their care, and let them use your credit cards so they don't steal some innocent victim's identity. Support them and take the burden off of me because I'm sick of it. They are here ILLEGALLY - get it???? I don't care if the war effort costs 100 times what is spent on the illegals. Give the veterans and the senior citizens what is being spent on the illegals- they have earned and deserve it.
Posted by mi on August 20, 2007 06:33 PMFresh-
It is "just" over $10B... meaning slightly over, or a bit over.
Mi-
Did I say I wanted illegals? No, your comment is the perfect example of someone reacting...and reacting emotionally... rather than being proactive, and doing what's in the best interest of our country.
Look at the other posts...not ONCE did I compare the cost of illegal immigration with the war effort.. I only responded when given the numbers, and made clear that I had not asked about the war effort numbers compared to illegal immigrants. I was only questioning 2:11s stats... because a debate such as this will never be solved or even have progress made on it, if people make up numbers and stats... it will only be solved through logic and clear thinking empty of emotion.
FYI- What point is there to deporting illegals when the border is basically open? It's like bailing out a row-boat with a 6 inch hole in the bottom. Talk about a stupid cost to incur! Get the borders tight.... then do a cost analysis of what is more benificial -- deportation or a guest worker program, etc... anything else is just foolish!
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 06:50 PMJB,
I may not have all of the numbers but I do have one very important one. That is there are more than 6 million immigrates waiting in line to enter this country legally. people willing to register, go through the criminal background check, take a medical exam and more importantly willing to follow the laws of this country. Deport the illegals and welcome the legal immigrates.
Problem solved!!
Posted by on August 20, 2007 07:38 PMFunny I didn't see the source for all the many billions of dollars the undocumented workers are suppose to be costing the immigration fanatics.
Even if the costs are to our government institutions are legit what about the profits generated to our economy by their below standard pay.
Here is an article detailing what the immigration hysteria is going to cost California
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/08/19/EDP5RJAF9.DTL&feed=rss.opinion
In comparison to the $10 billion per year we are supposed to be losing by having undocumented workers in our country we are spending roughly $12 billion a month to protect George Bush from being held accountable for his Mistake in Mesopotamia. How many bridges could we repair or how much affordable health care could we provide if we spent that money in America instead of repainting schools in Iraq to cover up the blood.
The brain tumor analogy doesn't resonate with the immigration fanatics because it is an organ that they seldom use. How about if you compare the difference between a cyst on your butt ala Rush Limbaugh and getting the Lorena Bobbitt treatment. Would you rather spend your time and energy finding a softer chair to sit in or getting your manhood reattached. Immigration is the issue of racists who have their heads firmly wedged when it comes to recognizing the incredible drain that the Bush mistake in Iraq is costing our country.
Posted by Wes on August 20, 2007 07:58 PMMs. Kennedy,
Your analogy is cruel and flawed,
What if native Americans turned away the Pilgrims?
What if the US Congress closed the doors on Irish immigrants during the potato famine?
The illegals you refer to are cleaning your toilets and building your homes,businesses, and serving your hambergers.
The cry from the right is "WE NEED TO ENFORCE EXISTING LAWS! "
I agree, we need to fine illegal employers who have been luring laborers up here since the Reagan years.
All the talk about aliens is a diversion from the fact that war is good business, business is very good, and soldiers are brainwashed to be killers. Please spare me the spittle-flying tirades that our soldiers are heros.
Sometimes they are, but the fact remains that mostly, they are frightened, young kids doing the dirty work for Shell Oil, British Petroleum (BP), Raytheon, GE, Haliburton etc, etc..
How can we justify using our heros and lying about them, (a la Pat Tillman and Jessica Lynch) for photo-op ads to recruit more of our kids to go against everything they've been taught in Sunday school and become hired killers?
We can't . And comparing costs to compassion is just plain evil.
Posted by on August 20, 2007 08:12 PM
Wes so you are ok with the below standard pay? What neighborhood community neighborhood do you live in? No its not costing us a bit......Wrong it is costing us plenty.
Racist? Since you are touting underpaying people for corporate profits, something you disagree with on any other posting, then why are we not getting those workers that will work for less than those coming up from south of our border? Please tell me this. Would it not be more profitiable if I am able to ship diggers from Sierra Leon, S Africa, Farmers from India (by the way we can then hire the kids of those Indians to work in our High Tech fields. Some of which are graduating from IIT in India) It is completely racist for you to not allow, better yet demand that they come here as they are in more need of help than our southern neighbors. What is wrong with your decency in not demanding the most needy be allowed into this country without legalization. It is these very people that are kept from coming here. Why? Because most want to do it the correct way and the other is geography.
But you go on suckliing from the teets of Terry Barton. I thought your Forest Service BS was out of line, but this is insane
Sorry meant neighborhood community. oops
Posted by on August 20, 2007 08:17 PMWes-
Let's keep the immigration issue just that, about immigration. I could have plenty to say about our adventures in Iraq, but that is the subject of a different thread... let's compare apples to apples here and keep it to immigration.
However, Wes does bring up the HEART of my point. Illegal migrant labor SAVES us quite a bit of money in terms of lower wages that farmers can afford, manufacturing and construction. Many work for minimum wage, no insurance, or less. Alsthough many say that is driving down the wages of others, it is important to note that it is also driving down COSTS for the average consumer, which can be measured in econmoic terms.
This is very simple economics. There are a lot of people with low skill levels, and many of these ilegal migrant workers are willing to do jobs that fit that...for VERY low pay. The American workers can either choose to do the same work for the same pay, or those who need the labor will resort to those who will do it for low pay.
It sounds harsh, but it's very basic supply and demand. And, many of our mid-to-small sized farms, simply cannot afford to pay more. If all agriculture were forced to pay more for their labor, the price of produce would go up dramatically. I don't know about everyone else, but I prefer not to pay $20 for a side salad when I go out. I apologize for using agriculture as a prime example, but its what I know the most about.
Quite simply, if one has skills that are rare and in-demand, they command a higher salary than someone who is just picking lettuce or assembling stuff on an assembly line.... so if it's a job ANYONE can do, companies will pay the lowest wage possible to get it done.... which in turn provides lower prices for us consumers. This is 8th grade economics.
This is why there is a demand for illegal migrant labor, and why all data suggests that's it's more effective (cost wise) to implement a guest worker program. Illegal labor might cost us $10B/ year, but the loss of cheap labor will cost this country far more.
That is why I say this is a complex argument with no room for emotion. If we just react, we end up doing more damage than good. We need to be logical and plan well if we REALLY want to come up with a productive solution.
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 08:24 PMWes is just a left wing bigoted ranter akin to Limbaugh being a right wing bigoted ranter. You'll never get anything from either except disdain for anything but pure reverence to their respective positions.
They'd both rather attack and decimated than discuss anything beneath their righteous opinions.
Posted by on August 20, 2007 08:25 PMJB
You discuss "This is very simple economics. There are a lot of people with low skill levels, and many of these ilegal migrant workers are willing to do jobs that fit that...for VERY low pay. The American workers can either choose to do the same work for the same pay, or those who need the labor will resort to those who will do it for low pay. "
Then you are OK with bringing over Indians with Great Development skills to work in the High Tech fields. This greatly reduces Software development costs plus very hard workers and very very kind people to work and live around. Do we not also allow the diggers from Sierra Leon to come over as they work very very hard and willing to work for less than our southern neighbors?
I know we all want to come up with a solution to this problem and understand your points. I really do. I will ask you the same question.......What neighborhood community do you live in?
Posted by on August 20, 2007 08:30 PMJB You're a closet racist taking jobs away from low education level blacks and other minorities, in addition to white; all of whom are legal American workers so you can have cheaper salad.
Also, by artificially keeping the low end wages down through the use of cheap illegal slave wages, you are holding down general middle class wages.
Let the market adjust, you selfish racist. you may pay more for a salad, but other Americans not as fortunate as you might also be able to enjoy an occasional salad.
KCW
Posted by on August 20, 2007 08:37 PMGreat letter LInda Kennedy!
Obviously your are not part of the fat Teddy Kennedy clan.
Posted by Great Letter on August 20, 2007 08:41 PM8:30-
I live in Denver, work in the tech center and have seen the problems with outsourcing, however I also recognize its benifit to me as a consumer.
Also, have you ever been to India, or Africa, or Siera Leon? Maybe you have, but I have too... and I'm not trying to pull this, I'm better than you thing, but what i am saying is that American tech business is part of the life blood of India... diamond mining (non-conflict) is HUGE is South Africa... and WE, AMERICANS, benifit from all of this!
Here is a great example of costly US policy with regards to overseas labor (this is the last I'll mention it here since it's unrelated. Feel free to start another post if you care to discuss further)
The African Growth and Opportunity Act, in simple terms, says that the US will buy any textiles that the African nations can produce. However, they must produce them with US grown cotton, which is subsidized, mostly on large, corporate owned farms. Then, we pay to ship it to Africa, then pay to ship the textile back to the US. We, the end consumer and tax-payer, are unknowingly subsidizing the cotton, and shipping to and from Africa. Cotton is greatly suited for the climate in most of southern Africa. So, we could be getting our clothes cheaper, but we are not due to a bizarre system which usually benifits large US corporations.
I only mention this because you brought up the whole issue of outsourcing. I would be happy to discuss on a thread involving that, rather than immigration.
However, many food products, grown here in the US, can't be shipped willy-nilly across the globe for our later purchase, and must be grown and consumed here... we need affordable labor to make those products affordable to us. The same with the tech industry. We can pay someone overseas, to do the same job (I'll admit that perhaps the service suffers), for a lot less... the difference is that $5/ US goes a hell of a lot farther in India than it does here!
KCW-
What are you even talking about? ALL Americans benifit from cheap labor. Not just me. And tell me, how is it "artificially" keeping wages down? There has been cheap migrant labor since the day this country was founded... this whole thing is nothing new. This has been part of our economy since the beginning.
We've had the Irish, Chinese, Swedish, Polish, etc... all of whom worked for sub-par wages and kept costs down. America's economic system is build on the backs of people like this.... including my forefathers, and probably yours too...
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 08:49 PMJB 08:42 Again you're a bigot to protect you own pathetic little pocket book. And it doesn't help the overall economy fool. It drains money out of the economy to other countries instead of recirculating and building our own society. Being a racist to protect one's own wealth is not an exclusive nor new idea. But you sure seem to have a solid grasp on the handle.
KCW
Posted by on August 20, 2007 08:50 PMJB I did not specifically bring up outsourcing in specific but understand where you got that assumption. I am talking of bringing them here....Not outsourcing. Allowing the poor of those areas to be here right now. Most of them are in more need of our support than those of our southern neighbors. Since you have been there you understand my comments. I am talking immigration so no other thread needed. Those of us that want this issue taken seriously are called racist and the "haves" not caring about the 'have nots" My point is if we are talking about the truly needy and hardworking, why not bring them all here?
My point of finding out the neighborhood you live is not to stalk.....lol but to make a point that unless you go through some of the troubled neighborhoods of old Denver and Metro, you would realize the costs of the Current Illegal immigration problems we have.
Making a rude assumption and please correct me if I am wrong, but would guess you live in the Ranch or someplace that is pretty much void of Illegal living. I have moved closer to work and moving into the inner burbs and hoping to make a difference PLUS speculate on the market. It cuts down on commuting and is good for environment and the community. But if you could see the devastation of what is being done with the Foreclosures and old timers not able to sell and their values dessimated by the treatment of good kind and very old neigborhoods. The costs are tremendous and not all financial.
Also sorry I thought the "remember my personal info" was turned on. Not a no name anymore :-)
Posted by bwr on August 20, 2007 08:54 PMJB You obviously enjoy slave labor "...America's economic system is build on the backs of people like this..." Heaven forbid you didn't have someone carrying your water. Keep talkin', MAStA. Enjoy the fruits of the labor of other's while denying those fruits through a fair wage to legal workers. You and those like you are pathetic users and abusers of people to feather your bed.
KCW
Posted by on August 20, 2007 08:54 PMAnd KCW-
I have NEVER resorted to a personal attack in my posts. You have the audacity to say "you selfish racist" and "people not as fortunate as you"
For your information... I gave from nothing, busted my butt for a good education and sacrificed a hell of a lot more than you will ever know to be successful and find a good job... don't EVER expect an apology from me for that.
And as far as being racist... there are hundreds of people who would beg to differ... but you proved my point of reactionary, overly-emotional, half-wits who speak before they think.
That will be the ONLY personal attack ANYONE on these posts will EVER see me make
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 08:54 PMI appreciate your respect... I really do. A respectful conversation is sometimes hard to find when two people don't necessarily agree.
Actually, I live in SE Denver... not the Ranch, not the Highlands, or even Cap Hill... Good Ol' Southeast. I live in a community where there are A LOT of hispanics and a huge diversity of other folks, including Indian immigrants who have come here to work in the tech industry.
Posted by BWR on August 20, 2007 08:59 PMJB Sic'em tiger, you're true nature is emerging to the surface of you pseudo liberal compassion false demeanor. Now, don't you feel better, you selfish bigot?
KCW
Posted by on August 20, 2007 09:02 PMSORRY!!! BWR.... I was responding to you and must have typed your name in instead of mine!!!! TOTALLY UNINTENTIONAL!
EVERYONE WHO CARES (who I doubt is many) 8:59 was me!!! Not BWR... totally my fault.
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 09:03 PMKCW-
So let's see: I'm a "racist" because I think people should earn success based upon their skills, education and willingness to do hard work -- rather than on the place they were lucky enough to be born, or the color of their skin or what language they speak?
Yup, I'm horrible. Your logic is so flawed it's almost funny... if it weren't so scary.
Good Econ 101,JB,although I'd like to make a point about guest worker programs.We have one already,although the guests are of the uninvited variety,and are likely to stay for awhile.In nuts-and-bolts terms,evicting the dozens of millions of illegals all at once would require martial law,military occupation of most of the country and a most aggressive suspension of ALL civil liberties,to the point where the firing squad is the law enforcement/Immigration Service tool of choice.A more sensible solution is to lock the border down tight and incrementally remove illegals whenever they come to official attention.Such a program would probably take several years to start to get control of the problem,and in the interim there'd be a large pool of people to do the work JB speaks of.When we've got the illegal count down to where it's manageable,we can maybe think about guest workers.
Thanks JB Thanks for the answer. I too work in the Tech field and love working with Indian Developers. Great people and to be selfish, their wives and sometimes the husbands are always trying out new and old Indian Dishes on me. Getting fatter every day and loving it. Love the diversity thing, but throughout my history here in Denver have seen a great clash of the old neighborhoods. In fact the one I am moving to, I am not sure if it is a house next door or a used car lot. Trying very hard to be civil and a good neighbor, try to work together to make the neighborhood a better place. Especially for those that are trying to sell and move. Mostly productive conversations with the renters of used car lot and multiple neighbors to help beautify the neigborhood for the betterment of the community, it usually relegates into Spanish in mixed company and without knowing that a few of us others know a word or 2 of Spanish......oops OK more than 2...hehehe
They usually laugh at the fact and do their best or worst to make things worse. Usually prefer to handle neighborhood problems in person and work together to make a better place, but no effort is being done. I have visited more than 150 - 175 foreclosed homes in last 3 weeks and been in a lot. Newest is to not only leave with all of belongings but to take the plumbing with them......lol In fact my new old home had to get new plumbing itself.
Oh well, but I guarantee that my new neigborhood will get better. Much better
Hey have your neighbors bring some of that great Indian food....hehehhe
Enjoy your evening JB
Posted by bwr on August 20, 2007 09:16 PMI usually enjoy a good discussion regarding the illegal immigration situation. However, I think this one has deteriorated beyond the point of rational discussion and debate. The only exchange that seems to be going on is that of barbs and ad hominen attacks.
Think I'll pass. Good night, folks.
Posted by Trinity on August 20, 2007 09:25 PMSure JB make me think that I am now talking to myself...... Understand completely and it happens all the time to people. I did it myself today. No Problems at all and no need for apology but truly Thank you
Posted by bwr on August 20, 2007 09:26 PMBWR-
You too! And yes, I LOVE the Indian food. Although I'm afraid the Saag Paneer is going to make me fat ;-)
And yes, i know what you're talking about... I too looked at a lot of foreclosures before buying this place... many didn't even have the staircases! Although, I think "eviction ettiquette" could be a topic in and of itself!
Have a good night.
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 09:29 PMJimminy is the only one who actually touched on the true solution. Lock down the border so that the issue disappears over time. All the other fanatics can talk about is how horrible the undocumented workers are and how easy it will be to deport ALL of them. How much is it going to cost to deport 12-20 million people when we have spent close to a half a trillion dollars to locate and apprehend 20,000 heavily armed men in Iraq with meager results? Two trillion? Ten? Deportation is never ever going to happen fanatics. It is as much a fantasy as universal health care.
Isn't it ironic that the fanatics who talk about how important it is to follow the law are the very ones who applauded when Bush gave Scooter Libby a get out of a jail pass. It seems like only poor people need to follow the law. Rich white Republicans can break the law with impunity and the fanatics celebrate. Saying that you only want to see the laws of the land enforced is cynical at best and blatant lying at worst.
As far as condoning the exploitation of undocumented workers for profit, I was merely pointing out the other side of the equation when we talk about how much undocumented workers cost our country. Linda spoke about the cost but never bothered to point out the contributions. How much food will rot in the fields when there is no one around to harvest it? The fanatics are going to have a hard time eating hate.
Posted by Wes on August 20, 2007 09:32 PMTrinity-
Probably the most intellegent decision I've seen all night ;-) You see how hard it is to have a rational conversation? Have a good evening.
Jimminy-
I've seen some of your other posts, and generally haven't necessarily agreed with them, but do appreciate your respectful reply, and openess to intellegent debate. I totally agree with your border assesment though, as evidenced in the last paragraph of my 6:50 post.
Intellegent, rational and logical solutions are the only way to solve this problem. And, Jimminy, you are on to a good place to start (although I have to admit i disagree with systematic deportation... mainly because if all the illegals go in to hidiing, I think they become more of an economic drain)... but clearly there is room for discussion and a benificial solution.
Posted by JB on August 20, 2007 09:40 PMWhich people are in here have talked Libby and said he should not have gone to jail? You and I have had this conversation before Wes and you only want the rich Republicans to go to jail, but save the Rich Democrats. I want both. That is where we deviated answers. You are accusing people of crap that has not been talked about in this thread. But calling us cynical at best and blatant lying at worst......What the hell is that? Not sure why I keep asking as you never engage in dialogue. Talk about eating hate.
You used the exploitation of Illegal Immigrants as an example of good here Wes. You did while on other threads hammer the benefits of Govt and the evil of Private Enterprise.
bwr - I repeat regarding Wes (save your breath - he doesn't care if your Rep or Dem, he vilifies everybody equally):
Wes is just a left wing bigoted ranter akin to Limbaugh being a right wing bigoted ranter. You'll never get anything from either except disdain for anything but pure reverence to their respective positions.
They'd both rather attack and decimate than discuss anything beneath their righteous opinions.
Posted by on August 20, 2007 10:49 PMIllegals are like that family member that overstays there welcome. The most polite suffer and bear it while the people who understand the imposition show them the door.
America would be much better off without the hand out -job stealing illegal ailens. bye bye.
Posted by the one on August 21, 2007 01:00 AMLinda Kennedy's letter smacks of bigotry and racism. This world is made far better for the presence of our southern friends who are only here to do the jobs we won't. Does she even know any immigrants? Does she even care that this country was founded by immigrants?
Rather than finding differences, she should celebrate the cultural richness that different cultures bring to us.
Posted by on August 21, 2007 08:21 AMI agree with 8:21
Cultural richness like:
Cockfighting
Bribery
Racism
Having more children than you can care for
Being more loyal to the country you came from rather than your new home The United States!
Yep it sure has made things a LOT better!
Posted by truthy on August 21, 2007 09:21 AMThe senete select committee stated that each Illegal alien will cost this country $400,000 during their lifetime. And they were in favor of amnesty. Do the math.
Posted by T on August 21, 2007 09:45 AMLets say that all the jobs in the USA are a sort of Union. Lets say that all citizens and legal residents are the Union members. Lets say that all Illegal Aliens are SCABS taking jobs. None of the Union members are on strike, but their jobs keep being taken by SCABS. Who should be giving up the jobs, the Union Members or the SCABS?
Posted by Jay on August 21, 2007 10:27 AMDon't be bigoted. These "illegals" to whom you refer are human beings. There is no such thing as an "illegal" human being. Try a little respect and dignity sometimes, as I am sure you expect that in others toward you.
And truthy, I am sure you have parts of your culture that you hold close. Why deny the same thing to others?
Posted by on August 21, 2007 10:40 AM10:40 Those people that are here without proper papers are here illegally. Illegal Immigrants This term is not bigoted.
Posted by bwr on August 21, 2007 10:51 AM8:21,
What immigrants? We talking "illegals"
who steal jobbs, SS#, etc. Take your place in line..come in legally..then you're an "immigrant". Other than that you're a criminal illegal! Yea..cultural richness like
roosters ,clothes hanging on fences, goats in the front yard.
Yesterday my daughter was at Burlington
Coat factory a family from Mexico speaking spanish told the 10 yr.old daughter to wipe the nose of the 2 yr.old with a sleeve of a $100.00 suit. My daughter heard that and said "you're really going to do thay'?
She waited a moment and yes, cleaned the snot nose kids nose with the sleeve of the suit..My daughter in dis gust said ..You did it anyway..didn't you?!!! See..stuff like this they have no respect for our stores..our laws..!
Cultural richness..you say???
Hey 10:40,
I am very happy to deny anyone's culture if that culture ignores OUR laws. Your arguements are hollow.
Posted by truthy on August 21, 2007 11:00 AMWhy are all of you "compassionate" people denying the right to a better live for millions of immigrates? I am talking about the ones who are waiting to enter this country legally. The ones who are complying with our immigration laws. The ones who have gone through a criminal check and have done or are willing to a medical exam.
Instead you choose to support the illegal immigrates who have completely ignored our immigration laws and continue to break our laws (working with fraudulent documents) Why not deport the illegal ones and bring in the ones willing to follow our laws? They definitely sound more like the people we want to call "citizens of the US"
Posted by jgd777 on August 21, 2007 11:10 AMPosted by jgd777 on August 21, 2007 11:10 AM
Contrary to your perceptions no one supports illegal immigration. What we support is an end to illegal immigration by the only means that can ever be successful: SECURING OUR BORDERS. Get it? You end illegal immigration when no one can cross our borders without going through the legal process. We have the satellite technologies and the manpower resources to know when a rabbit crosses the line. There was over four "billion" dollars in the Bush immigration reform bill to help secure our borders but the do-nothing Republicans preferred to keep the borders open so that they could use it as a political issue. This is all going to help push the Republican Party into irrelevance. They completely lost the Black vote at the Superdome. They are in the process of completely losing the Hispanic vote by pandering to their Aryan Nation sympathizers. It is going to get difficult to win elections with only Bubba and the evangelicals.
The bottom line is I don't hear the fanatics talk about border security or finding ways to assist Mexico so that their people don't have to become economic refugees living in the shadows of our society. Solutions like strong borders and a vibrant Mexican economy are never discussed. It is always about how bad the undocumented workers are all the while ignoring their contributions. I look at this narrow hysterical emphasis on how frightened we are supposed to be regarding this "alien invasion" and my primary reaction is these fanatics are racists to the core.
I want our borders secure and I want this racist hysteria regarding this class of poor people to be transformed into workable solutions.
Posted by Wes on August 21, 2007 11:47 AMWes,
Just a little heads up! The Republican are the ones that stopped this amnesty bill. The Republicans were not in charge at the Superdome, it was a Democrat governor and Democrat mayor. And the only Hispanic votes that the Republicans are losing are the ones of the illegal immigrates, and yes they are voting, because all of the open border, sanctuary people are showing them how to do it.
You can never secure the border as long as the open border people are protecting all of the illegals that manage to sneak across the border. We have immigration laws and not one administration since Eisenhower has done a damn thing about enforcing them. Republican or Democrat.
Mexico has all of the same natural resources that we have here in the US, in addition they have the ability to develop their tourist economy into one of the riches in the world. The only thing they don't have is a government that cares about their people. We can't make a country successful, they have to choose to do so on their own. We can however stop this country from becoming some third rate country, by bringing an end to illegal immigration and the first thing that needs to be done is to get rid of the illegals currently in the this country.
They are not an asset, they are a liability, the immigrates waiting to enter legally are the assets.
By supporting the illegal's right to be in the US you are supporting illegal immigration.
As far as being a racist, I am not, however if you choose to call me a bigot, then you may be closer to the truth. I have a deep seeded bigotry toward another one who enters this country illegally, whether they are Hispanic, Caucasian, Middle Eastern, African, or Asian. Race has nothing to do with my disdain for illegal immigrates.
Posted by jgd777 on August 21, 2007 12:19 PMmg - your entire story points out the bigotry that apparently runs in your family. What, your daughter couldn't have handed the little girl a tissue?
Posted by on August 21, 2007 12:23 PM12:23
And how can you expect anyone to respect another person's property! Hell, this is the 21st century, we can do what ever we want with no regards of how it affects other people.
Posted by on August 21, 2007 12:37 PMYou stupid gringos. We are here and more are coming. Viva La Reconquista!!!!
Ain't nuthing you can do about it Bro.
You dont like it go back to wherever it is you came from. We dint cross the border it crossed us
Chulo,
Your thinking and statements are exactly why there is such an uprising in this country. Stupidity running amok in the US because of people shooting off their mouths with no intelligent contributions, no viable solutions to growing problem facing our country. Stupidity of people citing the 14th amendment, or stating how us gringos stole land from you, or other useless remarks in justifying why 20 million illegal aliens who have broken so many of the US laws deserve to be here and feed off the American Taxpayers. We have 9 guest worker programs in place, we have immigration laws governing the do's and don'ts for immigrants coming into this country or wanting to come into this country. Why the surprise when finally the US Citizens have spoke loud and clear to the government , that this government is going to start enforcing the immigration laws????
This country does not need a 10th guest worker program, this country does not need to grant Amensty to 20 million illegal lawbreaking aliens.
The US thrives on diversity, hence legal immigrants; they want to be here they want to assilimate into this country, but it cannot thrive with illegals that sneak into our country in the dead of night, who buy forged documents and/or stolen identities and who want to piggy back on the Citizens backs for fringe benefits, to demand that the US Citizens cater to their whims
.
Bigot, Racist, yeah good words to throw out when someone does not agree with you. Name bashing and so forth is easy when you can not come up with an argument that holds water. Instead of having 20 billion guest worker programs, fix the ones we have, instead of amensty, the illegals go home and come here the right way. WHAT, the legal way...that would be the adult thing to do wouldn't it, the humane thing to do.
Chulo, go home and by the way on the way home, please pick up the billions of tons of garbage that your countrymen are leaving on US soil.
Posted by Pam on August 21, 2007 01:57 PMLook at the history of SLAVERY in this country.
In the middle of the 19th century this nation was in turmoil. The biggest issue in the national conscience was that of slavery. There was debate whether Negros had souls. Were they human or a sub-specie? Do they have rights? The propaganda proliferated.
Every American had an opinion. The fundamental dividing line was between the industrial North and the agricultural South.
Many felt that the economy couldn’t survive without slave labor. The North had underground railroads. The South had bloodhounds, whips and “slave chasers.”
The slave labor advocates fretted and whined. If slavery were abolished, cotton and tobacco would be so expensive only the very rich could afford it. Agricultural interests threw huge amounts of money and time toward keeping and securing slave labor.
The South tried to secede and there was a war. In the end, Abraham Lincoln made the Emancipation Proclamation. The South lost its slave labor.
Share cropping became common. The cotton gin was invented. Cotton remained a profitable crop and so did tobacco. Soon the cotton industry became mechanized. The economy adjusted. The Southern agricultural industry flourished. There was no massive economic catastrophe as predicted by what we in the 21st century know as the “cheap labor pimps.” But many people died and property was destroyed in that process.
Today, America is in an even greater turmoil. The very existence of the USA as we know it is at stake. The government is apologetically threatening a crackdown on illegal aliens. The agricultural, construction, meat packing, hospitality and service industries are crying that there will be an economic disaster if they lose their modern day slaves and they are throwing fortunes at retaining their slave labor.
Attracted by offers of minimum wage jobs with no benefits, these modern slaves are dying trying to cross deserts, trapped in back of trucks, and as victims of the modern day slave traders—The “Coyotes.”
The modern day plantation owners gladly accept and exploit the cheap laborers, knowing fully well where they came from and how they got there. They smugly claim they are not responsible and have no way of knowing.
The cheap labor pimps see nothing wrong with overlooking legal employees in favor of those who will work for less, know nothing about OSHA, never go on strike, and are not a burden to employers in the form of paying benefits. These pimps feel no responsibility for the deaths and misery caused by their violating our labor and immigration laws. After all, it is a free market, you know? Americans are not willing to do the jobs, (at half the wage).
The Bush Administration is putting on a big show with its purported “crackdown,” hoping to create a big outcry over enforcing existing laws. Bush is hoping that the public will be sympathetic with the “baby wavers” and stories of the heartbreak of “splitting families.” So there will be a few enforcement operations while making sure that the cameras are rolling.
If Bush were sincere about his “crackdown,” the fence would be fully funded. The “matricula consular,” (the illegal alien I.D. card), would no longer be recognized. Illegal aliens would no longer be free to fly across the country with merely a “matricula consular” and a ticket in their pockets. ICE would be infused with funds and other resources. The National Guard would still be at the border with orders to interdict.
Behind the scenes efforts are being made to further cripple the Border Patrol and open the doors wider to the influx of cheap labor. TPS (Temporary Protective Status, a euphemism for amnesty for Central Americans) is routinely extended.
Recently, the Chief Patrol Agent of the Laredo Sector, Carlos Carrillo, announced that the mission of the Border Patrol is to interdict terrorists at the expense of disregarding narcotics smugglers and illegal aliens.
What is the Bush Administration really doing? Publicly, in view of the American people is the “crackdown” we have been begging for. Overtly, the gates are being opened wider by redefining the mission of the Border Patrol. ICE is overwhelmed, undermanned and under funded. Are the “strategists” seeking to so flood the USA that we just throw up our hands and passively succumb to massive amnesty for the world?
Americans are being killed in our streets and in our homes by illegal aliens. Poisonous and defective products from abroad are imported on a massive scale. (E. G. tires, food, meat, toys, clothing and who really knows what else?)
The economy is tanking, gasoline is unaffordable, proper health care is unattainable even by some insured Americans, Americans are losing good paying jobs, families are hurting and there is a herd of nitwits striving to be our next President with no real leadership abilities backed by unpatriotic political machines and “special interest” groups. (Perhaps this is an unfair statement. We do have Tom Tancredo and Duncan Hunter running, but the political machines and the media are opposed to them. They are not among the nitwits).
The illegal alien lobby is threatening massive “civil disobedience,” many families are being forced out of their homes, the entire Bush Administration is being run by “dim bulbs” and American foreign policy is incoherent.
And the beat goes on...
Pam
Excellent post. Direct and straight to the point. Those who howl against you and scream racism have run out of logical arguments to use in defense of illegal immigrants. They are now reduced to emotional responses. Usually, those who scream racism the loudest are people who for some reason either can't recognize, or can't confront the truth or reality.
Posted by Trinity on August 21, 2007 05:05 PMDoes anyone see it for what it really is -- ILLEGAL immigration.
Illegal is illegal. We're not talking about immigrants who come over here to work LEGALLY. Some of these posts paint the beautiful picture of people just doing jobs we won't do. Breaking their little backs to serve the needs of the American people. BALONEY.
They're taking advantage of our health care, stealing identity to work here, lying on paper, murdering , raping, driving down wages, stealing jobs (construction and the trades have taken a huge hit). Shall I go on?
Our arms are open to people who get in line and follow the process which was put in place to protect every LEGAL American.
We are bursting with illegals who have no regard for our laws. Ther IS no defense for these people.
Where is the Mexican governement's responsibilty in this mess? Just ;ay back on the beach and watch the money from the good ol' USA roll in. They couldn't care less about the welfare of their people.
Excellent letter, Linda.
Hey Chulo-
Did you make it past the third grade?
Do you what illegal is. Trash like you.
Posted by c on August 21, 2007 10:25 PMHey Chulo-
Did you make it past the third grade?
Do you know what illegals are? Trash like you.
Lawbreakers and thieves, nothing more.
12;23
why did'nt the snot nosed anchor babys
mom clean her own kid's nose? Rather than using new clothes from the store! That's her
responibility..not a strangers or the 10 yr old sibblings.. You all want to steal our SS# ,jobs, drain our system and still want us to hand over a tissuue on a silver platter?
Learn some home training!!!!!
And I'm not WHITE!
MG
I don't know what being or not being white has to do with it; but, you sound like an American with common sense and proper upbringing -- almost a dying breed, unfortunately.
Ken G
Posted by on August 21, 2007 10:54 PMHow many of the white population in America are originally from America…i mean how many are natives. So it smacks of insanity to want to brand migrants. its like it is we against them. these people whose fore fathers migrated here long time ago , come on TV and claim migrants are invaders. we know those who are natives. Some Irish people who migrated here also see America as their own that should be protected from invading Mexicans. Rubbish. No one likes a chaotic immigration policy, but for some white suprremacist to say a fleeing illegal deserves to be shot by border patrol agents at the borders,is pure madness. How many so called citizens are ready to work in farms, cafes, warehouses, factories…
Posted by dionysus on August 22, 2007 09:20 AMdionysus
"How many so called citizens are ready to work in farms, cafes, warehouses, factories…"
Unlike yourself, there are many legal white, brown, black and yellow American workers who would love to have those jobs at a fair (not outrageously high) wage. Unfortunately, they're being held captive by cheap illegal slave labor artificially suppressing wage levels at the lower end of the working class so you can sit in the coffee house musing at the blight of the illegals over a cheap meal.
Quit yelling racism and start facing the hard cold facts and reality that illegal labor has skewed both the workplace and earning potential of lower middle working America. I don't see you screaming racism as they are being denied a fair opportunity to pursue the American dream.
Posted by on August 22, 2007 10:27 AM10:54,
Because if you're anti-illegal everyone thinks
a person is white.. like these posters and that isn't the case. We 're fifth generation Americans from Spanish decent from New Mexico, but here in Co all our lives.. These are stores we patronise and to see people
disrespect our stores and laws is disturbing.
We've never ever seen anything like this before..now we see more than this.
MG
Like I said, MG, you sound like an American with a solid upbringing and common sense. I would imagine you're experiencing your own set of problems by some people mistakenly including your family as being illegal due to your Hispanic heritage. That's another tragedy as a result of the problem.
Thanks for speaking up.
Ken G
Posted by on August 22, 2007 04:59 PMKen G, 4:59pm
Thank..You!