Immigration
Mike Rosen, Finally, some real math on the idea of Mexico acquisition.
Mexicans Remember the Alamo differently than the American John Wayne version. Texicans lost the first go at the Alamo, if my public education was honest. Eventually Southern Manifest Destiny was accomplished by the American Army.
I am not sure why our army invasion stopped at the Rio Grande back then. Possibly for the same reason Bush I stopped short of Baghdad in Gulf War I.
At what point does slogging become a quagmire? I know the Alamo is in America now because I attended Air Force basic training in San Antonio in 1969.
As a veteran, it bothers me that the United States provides security for illegal immigrants. As for California, their electoral numbers and congressional clout equal Pelosi for VP. Gottcha.
Anyway, thanks for your thoughtful analysis. Can you find your counterpart in Mexico to tell us what benefits Mexico might derive from “reconquista” of California, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona and Colorado? Some say these territories belonged to Spain before an unjustified war.
If we returned Mexico their water ("color-red-o” River flow) then perhaps harvest crops could be grown where harvesters are. Your political realities are frightening to think about, but the political reality of any path to citizenship (amnesty) for illegals is much the same if only the Democrats seem to know it.
Conservatives should champion “citizenship at time of conception” rather than time of birth. That way Mexicans violating our borders to take advantage of birth rights (anchor babies) would have Mexican-citizenship babies to take back home with them, and Americans who conceived during Cancun honeymoons would deliver Mexican babies, to then do the work Americans won’t.
Why do I have to do all the complicated math? Thanks for your report which should have been titled: Remembering Congressman David Crockett.
This letter has not been edited.
see www.numbersusa.com
Posted by on August 28, 2007 02:14 PMMike Rosen argues against the idea of conquering Mexico. It's a notion that comes up quite often and he addresses it. Face it, no right winger like Rosen is going to advocate anything that increases welfare or social service expenses.
Besides, what an absurd idea some people come up with.
Posted by on August 28, 2007 02:22 PMI want to know what colorado does with all the taxes the illegal immigrants do not get back at tax refund time?they do not do their income taxes due to lack of social security number.
Posted by martha on August 28, 2007 03:37 PMmartha:---
Many illegals do file taxes with Taxpayer Identification Numbers and with SS numbers legally received when they entered the country on a work or student visa that has since expired (the SS number never expires). The TIN is a legal loophole that has been very well exploited. I am an accountant and do around 100 returns for illegals per year so I see it first hand.They not only get a refund for Fed & State withholdings, they get Earned Income Credit, Child Tax Credits, etc.
I understand Spanish although I refuse to use it when doing taxes (personal quirk). Each year I hear these guys telling their wifes or girlfriends not to mention income that was paid under the table. Each year I send a list of people that I suspect out and out cheated on full declaration of income to the IRS and State. I am not aware of any one being followed up on.
So many of the illegals do get not only their refunds (can't get FICA), but also milk the welfare side of our tax system as well.
For obvious reasons I write this anonymously.
Posted by on August 28, 2007 03:49 PMMany illegals only forfeit the Social Security (FICA) withholdings from their checks. I have acquaintances in the construction industry who unashamedly use illegals on their jobs. Usually, the illegal will claim so many dependents there is no required Federal or State Income Tax withholding -- only the unavoidable FICA.
It is reputed that some unscrupulous employers know that since an illegal immigrant won't be around to collect Social Security they can write paychecks deducting FICA and other small necessities, paying the illegal by check. They then cash the check on the spot for the illegal and destroy the paper trail (the check). In this way they've bilked both the illegal employee out of the withholdings, and the the governments out of the employer's share. There's money to be made paying "under the table."
Posted by darfor on August 28, 2007 03:59 PMAnother way for the illegals to avoid taxes is to not be hired but instead go to work for some one as a contractor. Taxes aren't with held for contractors, only employees. A perfect example if the Denver Newspaper Agency. They hire all of the delivery people for all of the papers delivered in Denver and suburbs. The delivery people are contracted with not hired. They have to present a drivers license, car insurance and a social security card. The newspaper copies the cards and puts them in a file. they pay the delivery people by check without and with holding taken.
Its interesting that you can arrange to buy the necessary documents, or even a full set of false ID, from other delivery people right in the pick up warehouse. The newspapers get cheap delivery people and the illegals get no questions asked and no taxes with held.
Who said the local newspapers aren't responsive to the city folks.
Posted by on August 28, 2007 04:06 PMThe thing is if you are going to get all anti-undocumented have a plan besides shoot every brown skin person or make ever brown skin person prove beyond a shadow of a doubt in a racists mind that they a "real" american. Why should Pablo, Jose, or Tito have to pass as white to get by in this culture?
The corparations are making a killing with the undocumented (sometimes literally) and all I hear is free market it's up to the guberment to stop them from coming into the country.
The most cost effective way of stopping the undocumented from entering into the country is not some massive fubar from the start national ID with fences and checkpoints at every streat corner and stopping them from livng in the nice neighborhoods (you dumb jerks really need to look how slums start) but by looking why they come here and dealing with that problem. They come for work.
American industry used to be driven by American workers that were better educated and more verstile workers than the third world. Guess what chumps, we aren't any better than India now. The American worker worked for a delayed reward system that, while not perfect, worked okay. I'll admit that liberals with their job jumping behaviour dmaged that system alot, but the conservatives didn't help much wiht that attitude of total disrespect of the lower class. After all if the person is lower class they must like being there and are uneducated and probably violent to start with. Get real.
Liberals are airhead in that most of the time they have no clue what the reaction to their action will be, conservatives are straight up jackasses in that they don't care how their actions effect others.
If a buisness uses unfair buisness practices (that means paying the undocumented below par wages because they can) don't shop there. Once buisness have to start treating their employies as people most of the problems will resolve themselves and then you can move onto the next set of issues. As long as the conservative have this limited my way or the highway attitude (which seems to invole headbans and guys in jackboots and paramilitary garb) we will be at loggerheads and this country will continue to sink into the cesspool that looks to be the futrue.
Don't like the undocumented? Get behind the Homeland security ruling and start picking out what rules they need to enforce and HOW they need to enforce them. Don't let it slip into some pidgon hole. But that isn't wha the corprate groups that are paying your sponsership costs want now is it? They want slave labor and by god you are going to get it for them.
Dont take no education to figur this out.
It's a start --
CINCINNATI (Reuters) - More than 300 U.S. immigration agents raided the Koch Foods Inc. chicken plant in Fairfield, Ohio, and arrested more than 160 employees as part of a criminal operation against illegal immigrants, Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) said on Tuesday.
Catch em, deport em...the more the better.
Posted by on August 28, 2007 07:30 PMSince the 80's, homelessness has tripled in direct correlation to 3 million illegals entering the United States every year.
There isn't an affordable housing shortage, illegals are living in cheap apartments and houses meant for the poor and homeless U.S. citizen. Most poor U.S. citizens work in low-skilled jobs such as fast food, housekeeping and manual labor such as gardening,car wash establishments and restaurants. These jobs are now solely taken by illegals, thus taking away jobs and therefore housing from U.S. citizens.
I have great sympathy for people who want a better life for their family. But this can't be done at the expense of U.S. citizens, nor is it a morally right to do when so many others are still waiting in line for their citizenship because American laws meant something to them.
Illegal immigration is destroying this country.
Posted by Kandi on August 28, 2007 07:36 PMLet's imitate Oklahoma and pass state laws that will "encourage" illegals and those who would hire them to rethink their decisions. Their laws aren't even in effect yet and they appear to be working.
Simple plan, no jobs, no welfare, no second chances and no allowing them to remain after being caught. Deport them as you catch them...just like any other criminals. If you want to help illegals then you can give them a ride to New Mexico or Arizona or some place where the citizens want to pay for illegals.
Amend ..Amendment 14..clarify it..not meant for anchor babies.
Enforce the law..deport. Now has it ONLY if there's a DUI or crime...Sanctuary policy.
Do away with Sanctuary cities..and heavy fines for employers who hire illegals.
Posted by Americans First! on August 28, 2007 08:34 PM4:06
1-866-DHS-2-ICE
denver_minuteman @yahoo.com
Martha asked “I want to know what colorado does with all the taxes the illegal immigrants do not get back at tax refund time?” – they pay them back to illegals and their children in the form of government aid and schooling,…several times over.
Posted by Uno on August 28, 2007 08:57 PMI used to be a carrier for the DNA. Some of us called the ICE and complained about all of the illegals taking over and the fact that the newspapers actually recruit them though other illegals. We even explained how you could buy documents and id from people in the DC. In some of the DCs (distribution centers where carriers pick up the papers for their routes every morning) 70%+ are illegals who don't speak English. It's like going to work in Mexico. ICE said that they would take the report but nothing ever came of it. Probably because there are only 40 to 60 in each DC and there are about 12 DCs. So the newspaper get to skate and use cheap labor rather than contract with legal workers. Plus the ICE probably doesn't want to piss off the media.
Posted by on August 28, 2007 09:09 PMdarfor:-
If the employers destroy the checks how can they deduct wages paid to workers. It doesn't make sense for them to pay taxes on money they spent.
CA
Posted by on August 28, 2007 09:24 PMUno
From my experience in studying the economy (I'm an economist for a large multinational) most illegals who do draw a salary claim sufficient exemptions to offset any withholding from the level of salary they earn. Many studies down by various financial institutions (i.e., Bear Sterns, Bank of America, Wells Fargo) have repeatedly verified this analysis and conclusion.
So your assertion that excess tax revenues collected from withholding of illegal's income goes to support of infrastructure is wishful thinking -- it's almost minuscule. Support for our schools and infrastructure has minimal contribution from the shadow economy of illegal workers.
Their tax contribution is limited more to taxes paid by landlords, FICA, Med., sales tax and excise tax. There are, of course, some exceptions to this (i.e., an illegal operating a business as legitimately as possible, etc.).
Posted by carl on August 28, 2007 09:45 PMCA
Without holding a tax evasion class I can tell you from my experience as an accountant how a dishonest employer like the type darfor talked about can deduct wages paid from their tax liability.
There is a section on tax forms to enter the amount spent for Contracted Labor. While it would help to have actual checks written for the purpose of audits, the main documentation for substantiating expenditures in this category are completed I-9s identifying who was paid.
If I were to use illegal workers and play games like paying under the table I would only use subcontractors and not put any of them on an official payroll. I would have each complete an I-9 and subcontractor contract with the name they wanted to be paid under. Then I would pay them based on work completed per the contract. If I used checks as darfor described I would cash the checks for them and destroy any record of bogus withholdings that I scammed the illegals for. Or, I would pay by cash and have them sign a receipt of payment.
All of this is of course theoretical and if actually done would be illegal in the eyes of the IRS, SSA and State Department of Revenue, so I strongly recommend NOT doing it.
The example given about the newspapers contracting with illegals to do delivery makes paying illegals much easier. Have the subcontractor present the documentation requested and issue straight checks for work done without any pretense of withholdings. If the newspaper is ever challenged over the issue of using illegals they can show copies of the documentation given them and claim that they did their due diligence.
Again, for obvious reasons I post this anonymously.
Posted by on August 28, 2007 10:44 PM10:44
It is so nice to post anonymously is it not; especially when giving amunition on how Contractors can beat the system and take more American Hardworking Citizens jobs from them.
Posted by Pam on August 29, 2007 10:06 AMMexico has successfully invaded America. We have raised our hands and the white flag. Welcome to Americo!
Posted by Tom on August 29, 2007 10:11 AMPam
Now that someone has explained how some rather nefarious individuals can scam both the system and the illegals, be on the lookout for anything that looks suspicious. I brought the subject up in my earlier post. I personally wouldn't have provided a detailed blueprint on how it works, but the practice is prevalent in the construction and service industries.
If you have a valid belief someone is playing games, do the same thing that I do and that's report them to ICE. One of the ways that Americans can help get those jobs back for fellow Americans and legal residents is to become active as a part of the solution.
Although I am very supportive of forcing the illegals out of the work place and back to their countries of origin (where they can then legally apply for readmission and be welcomed back), I don't believe in defrauding, or otherwise demeaning them as human beings. On a humane basis it's bad enough that they are exploited as almost slave labor to enrich elements of our society; defrauding or abusing them further is adding to our societal guilt.
Posted by darfor on August 29, 2007 10:29 AMI enjoy reading; however, when I come across numerous bad spelling I scroll to the next comment immediately. Suggestion: copy and paste unto Word, correct your spelling, copy and paste unto Post. Richard
Grimes: I don't have to obviously leave my name off my post and I can see why the accountant must leave his name off. Me, RG, your friendly cowardly atheist claiming to be an agnostic.
Deicide Corner: “The Ethiopians say that their gods are snub-nosed and black, the Thracians that theirs have light blue eyes and red hair.” -- Xenophanes ~~~ and holy war, holy war, holy war, never stopping: rg.
I enjoy reading; however, when I come across numerous bad spelling I scroll to the next comment immediately. Suggestion: copy and paste unto Word, correct your spelling, copy and paste unto Post. Richard
Grimes: I don't have to obviously leave my name off my post and I can see why the accountant must leave his name off. Me, RG, your friendly cowardly atheist claiming to be an agnostic.
Deicide Corner: “The Ethiopians say that their gods are snub-nosed and black, the Thracians that theirs have light blue eyes and red hair.” -- Xenophanes ~~~ and holy war, holy war, holy war, never stopping: rg.
When i come across a multiple post, I just wander by....... Suggestion... only hit the post button...once.
Pam, aren't you posting anonymously? as we have no idea who you really are.
Contractors already know how to beat the system. I see them everyday. They are not trolling around the RMN looking for ideas.
Posted by Dravur on August 29, 2007 02:12 PMThere was a raid at a meat packing plant in Raleigh, NC this week.
Twenty nine illegal workers were arrested and it was found that all but 2 of them had stolen identity. Two of their victims lost more than $10,000 because of these thefts.
It makes me FURIOUS when I hear people say "They only come here to work for a better life". At WHO'S expense? They are criminals the minute they sneak over the border, and only add to their crime as they steal from American citizens IN SO MANY WAYS.
Why isn't the Rocky Mountain News being more closely watched? How many of their carriers have stolen identity? Where is ICE?
Posted by c on August 29, 2007 03:52 PMDravur,
I have never posted anonymously, my first name is Pam, is your first name Dravur? You don't need to know me, for me to post my opinions on this page, just as your are afforded to post your opinions.
Posted by Pam on August 30, 2007 06:45 AMc... report the RMN to ICE and watch what doesn't happen.
Posted by A on August 30, 2007 08:07 AMIf I were to immigrate to mexico (legally or illegaly) what programs or resources would be in place to help me make the transition from being a U.S. citizen to becoming a citizen of mexico? Would there be bilingual schools for my children? Would there be governmental forms in english to help me understand the ways & customs in the new country I now reside in ? And would it be fair for me to protest in the streets demanding that the bar be lowered because of my laziness or refusal to learn the language of the country that I now live in ?And to demand amnesty (especially if I were illegal)?I'm not picking on mexico or it's people, it could just as easily be germany, poland, or turkey, it just happens that mexico is the country to the south,and it just happens that of the estimated 12 million (or more)illegals in the U.S. are from hispanic countries. A good example is the late 1800's early 1900's when thousands of immigrants came to America from all over the world, they quickly learned to assimilate to the ways & customs of this country learned english etc;And when there's 2nd 3rd generations that haven't learned english or refuse to assimilate it really pisses me off. REGARDLESS OF THERE COUNTRY OF ORIGIN,it is just unacceptable. There are immigrants from other countries & cultures that are far more foreign to the U.S. than the differences that separate America from Mexico & these other groups seem to get it together within a generation. It's just too bad that the people of mexico don't or won't take control of their own country and make it what they want it to be. Be mexicans, not mexican'ts, but most importantly if you want to be here then do it legally & if you can't do that ,stay where you are, we don't want you,or need you & I don't want to hear that crap about taking jobs that "americans" won't do. I'm blue collar, a laborer in construction & I grow my own veggies & mow my own lawn.
Posted by on August 30, 2007 11:31 PM11:31,
Well said! You're right , there's kids and teen-agers interpreting for parent and grandparents and some of these people still
can't speak English..or don't desire to. They still have to have family members do everything for them because they're illiterate.