Protest another way
I absolutely hate watching the evening news and learning of the ongoing deaths of American soldiers in Iraq. It breaks my heart to see their loved ones suffer.
Maybe I do not agree with the administration that sent us to war in Iraq, but never have I even considered hanging the American flag upside-down (“Woman fights for right to protest war,” July 10). The American flag does not stand for a specific period in time. It stands for many, many years of bloodshed and determination by those who cared enough to fight for our freedom.
I feel very offended that someone would want to treat our flag in this manner — I cannot imagine how all the veterans and their families must feel. There cannot be anything more disrespectful to those who have fought and those who have lost their lives defending our freedom.
People that feel they need to make a political statement about their discontent with the war need to find a more respectful way to do so.
Marie Goedert, Fort Morgan
Marie Goedert says........It stands for many, many years of bloodshed and determination by those who cared enough to fight for our freedom
A bit of history for Marie Goedert of Fort Morgan, Colorado.
The 'Stars and Stripes' as we know it today, with its blue field of 50 white stars and 13 red and white stripes representing the original 13 colonies, underwent several transformations.
The first flag raised in the United States was hoisted by John Cabot in 1497; it flew the banners of England and St. Mark. As settlers populated the colonies, each territory adopted its own flag. By 1707, each colony had its own flag, the forerunners of the individual state flags today. The first colonial flag representing all the colonies, however, was believed to have been raised on Prospect Hill in Boston at the Battle of Bunker Hill. The 'Contintental Colors' bore the cross of the British flag in the upper left corner with 13 alternating red and white stripes extending horizontally. In 1777 the first Continental Congress 'Resolved, that the Flag of the United States be thirteen stripes alternate red and white, that the Union be thirteen stars white on a blue field, representing a constellation. '
As the Union grew, Congress voted in 1794 to add two stripes and two stars to represent the two new states of Vermont and Kentucky. this flag is believed to be the one nicknamed the 'Star Spangled Banner'. By 1818 five more states had joined, and on April 4, Congress voted to keep the number of stripes at 13 and to add a stara to the field for every new state, the stars for the new states being added the July 4th after each states admission to the Union.
-The New York Public Library Desk Reference
If that was too much for you to comprehend, here you go......
The upside down U.S. flag is an official signal of distress. It is not meant to be, and is not officially recognized as any type of disrespect when so displayed for the right reasons. To the contrary, here is the relevant part of the US Code of Laws regarding how to fly the flag when in distress:
THE FLAG CODE
Title 36, U.S.C., Chapter 10
As amended by P.L. 344, 94th Congress
Approved July 7, 1976
§ 176. Respect for flag: No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America; the flag should not be dipped to any person or thing. Regimental colors, State flags, and organization or institutional flags are to be dipped as a mark of honor.
(a) The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property.
Most individuals who have served in the military service of our nation will (or should) recognize this signal.
Posted by Michelle on August 1, 2007 01:01 AMFunny how the folks who are having heartburn over this seem never to complain when a business flies a flag in the dark without proper lighting (Sec 2 (a)when a patriotic effect is desired, the flag may be displayed twenty-four hours a day if properly illuminated during the hours of darkness, or in the rain (Sec. 2, (c) The flag should not be displayed on days when the weather is inclement, except when an all weather flag is displayed.) or is in such a state of disrepair that it ought to be destroyed (I have seen the "monster sized" flags flying over car dealerships that are so beat up that the stripes are flying independently of one another for a noticeable length - not to mention the ones on car antennae which are also filthy & beaten up by the weather). Or does Ms. Goedert believe that not taking care of a flag is OK, as long as it it flown right side up?
Posted by Mary on August 1, 2007 03:08 AMok Michelle, now I applaud your response, but now using the articles you have researched and I know there will be more pertaining to what I will say, how would you respond to the hispanic students of Montbello High School when they flew the mexican flag above the American flag and the American flag was upside down? They proudly took a picture of it and laughed at it, would you hold the faculty and students accountable for violation of these articles? If you burn the mexican flag, mind you it is considered hate speech, but when they burn the American flag they call it free speech. Explain that
Posted by Nick on August 1, 2007 03:09 AMas a vet I look at the childish protest of flying the flag upside down just plain stupid. think of it this way.. this moron flies the flag upside down and their home is stormed by the military to correct the situation that made them fly the distress signal. are they going to cry because the military came in with all their guns at the ready, and willing to die to protect them?
the hate crime of buring the mexican flag is really just a waste of gas and a match.
The mexican flag isn't worth whipping my bum with!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by on August 1, 2007 06:22 AMWow, Michelle is smarter than the rest of us. Whats your point?
Posted by Down with ENTITLEMENTS on August 1, 2007 06:50 AM6:22 is in to S&M?
Posted by on August 1, 2007 07:26 AMMichelle,
You have missed Maire's point entirely. She is not arguing that flying the flag upside-down is ipso facto disresptecful.
She is arguing the
"when so displayed for the right reasons"
criterea is not met by the circumstances.
Marie is not arguing that we should remain silent when we disagree with government policy. She is arguing that we should hold our dissent within a larger context of common civility that respects the nation and those who have fought and died for our principles even when things aren't going our way in Washington.
The anmiating principle of pluralism is that the majority respects the rights of the minority to their opinion and the minority respects the right of the majority to rule.
The political leaders failure to implement your particluar view does not create a "dire" condition unless you think you have some divine right to rule.
You offer of a "history" lesson and your assumption that you are smarter than Marie makes you appear foolish when it is obvious that her grasp of the central issue is superior to your own.
The value of dissent is that it puts a brake on the reflexive sanctimony of those who are so convinced they are right they refuse to respect the opinion of others. Instead they cast aspersions on the intelligence of those with a differnt view when they should be considering what they have to say.
Like you did with Marie.
Posted by James Jones on August 1, 2007 07:50 AMWhat's really pathetic about this whole issue that we've been in Iraq for more than 4 years now.
More than 3,600 of our troops have given their lives in this war. Almost 27,000 have been wounded, many of them losing arms and legs.
Since the invasion, between 68,000-75,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed. We can't even begin to know how many of them have been left permanently disabled.
And if none of those numbers have any impact on you, how about this one...the cost of the war to date: $448 BILLION and rising.
And what are people griping about?
A woman flying the flag upside down as a symbol of her opposition to all of the above.
Thousands of lives lost, thousands of people maimed and wounded, one nation is in turmoil and another has lost it's credibility on the world stage, hundreds of billions of dollars that could have been better spent...
Sounds like distress to me. Hell, sounds like sheer stupidity.
Seems to me like everyone including the White House should be flying their flags upside down.
Posted by Thomas on August 1, 2007 08:39 AMA typical letter from the patriotically ignorant.
Every country on Earth has a flag ... but only one nation has a Constitution of the United States of America.
If flying Old Glory upside-down starts the process of getting Americans to save our Constitution from the subversion and degradation it is going through from Bush and Cheney (enabled by the Dimocrats, by the way) -- then I hope that soon everyone in the Republic would be displaying this potent symbol of distress.
If we lose our system of liberty, justice and democracy as articulated in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, to the fearmongering and warmongering of the power-hungry George W. Bush administration, then all the sacrifice in the past for what the flag STANDS FOR ... will have come to nothing in the end.
With all the lying, deception, corruption, secrecy and subversion we are witnessing now in the central government, flying the flag upside-down is the least good, patriotic Americans can do to send the message that we want our country back.
Posted by Dave Chandler on August 1, 2007 08:50 AMYou have to admit it. Flying the flag upside down got your attention, didn't it?
That's exactly why it works.
Posted by Tree Hugger on August 1, 2007 09:40 AMThomas,
Just to counter point you a little. The cost total cost of the Iraq war, as you stated is indeed $448 Billion, or about half what the Federal Government collects in Business Gains taxes ($215.3 Billion), each year. As the national defense budget pretty much directly reflects the corporate income taxes collected, this should be a non-issue, which is why personal income tax cuts can be made during this time of war. We I believe is more of a travesty, is not cutting the social welfare programs to reflect the slight correction in personal income taxes, and I lay that blame solely on the Republican Congress.
I don't have an opinion one way or another on this flag issue.
I agree with Dave Chandler's premise that it is an absolute that we must adhere to the Constitution, although his silly partisan rant leaves much to be desired. PS Dave, we live in a republic, not a democracy. Just a little FYI.
Posted by Dan3 on August 1, 2007 10:02 AMNon! Now! Children!
Mustn't disagree with authority. And, you certainly MUST take heed when James Jones tells you:
The animating principle of pluralism is . . . the minority respects the right of the majority to rule.
Oh, just by the way, you can dissent - and the majority rulers should respect that. BUT, as a mere dissenter, it is YOU who must respect their RIGHT TO RULE.
Mixed up in it all, there is some wordy blather about, " . . . reflexive sanctimony of those who are so convinced they are right they refuse to respect the opinions of others." One may gather that this is directed to those who don't feel that Jonesy's ideas of "ruling" - by majority or otherwise - are always the last word to be had on the subject. And, more especially, to those who even dare to let that "lack of respect" be known. I guess.
On the other hand, one might also come to the conclusion that the remark is a rather obvious Freudian slip, on the part of someone who is rather famous - or infamous, if you prefer - for postings full of "reflexive sanctimony", while being rather short on anything resembling substance; and who has yet to present a logical argument when questioned about fallacious premises.
But, of course, that's up to you. Do remember, however, HE ALWAYS represents the "majority" - even when it is a self-conceived and solitary "majority of one"; so, of course, HE should "rule", as well.
Dave Chandler,
An excellent presentation, sir. The Flagworshipers - as with other symbol idolators, such as the "christian" Bookworshipers - will neither understand nor accept the reasoning. But, then of course, THEY are - in their own minds anyway - that "majority" that the "minority" must "respect" in their "right to rule". That good old "Wrap it in the flag, boys" claque, for whom even honest dissent is seen to be the ultimate in "disrespect", if not viewed as - and often called in letters here - "treason".
Posted by Old Grouch on August 1, 2007 10:06 AMDown with ENTITLEMENTS,
I don't claim to be smarter than anyone here. My point of giving the history of the flag and the U.S. Flag Code was to give the original poster a reference guide as to how the flag came about and to show that an upside down flag is a way of showing distress.
What do you have to offer here??
James Jones,
I will have to respectfully disagree with what you said about Marie.
Her last two sentences "There cannot be anything more disrespectful to those who have fought and those who have lost their lives defending our freedom.
People that feel they need to make a political statement about their discontent with the war need to find a more respectful way to do so."
To me say that she thinks the flag is being disrepected (being hung upside down) when in truth this is a perfectly justifiable way of showing how you feel about the state of this country.
I'm sure everyone has their own view of what a 'dire' situation is. To me the homeowner who started this was showing their patriotism by letting others know they feel their country is in 'dire' need of help and something needs to be done.
Well within the law.
Nick,
As this original topic was only concerning the flying of the flag upside down I'm not certain why you are bringing up the Mexican flag issue. And you want me to explain their actions??? But here you go.
My opinion was that it was stupid (but hey, high school kids kinda do that kind of stuff, you know rebellion and all) since this happened a while ago (if I recall correctly) I don't remember them burning the flag, just having the Mexican flag flown higher than the U.S. flag...If you read the U.S. flag code, this is incorrect. Is this hate speech?? I don't think so, I think it was done out of ignorance and plain old teen rebellion.
What do I think should be the punishment as you asked "holding the faculty and students accountable for violation of these articles? " I think a reprimand of the faculty at most. It would be stupid otherwise as that would bring about 'charges' to a hell of a lot of Americans who 'proudly' use the flag for advertising purposes or even for use of paper napkins/plates ect (temporary use and discard)...ever been to a 4th of July party?? are all no-nos according to the U.S flag code.
dave chandler,Bush and Cheney are saving our constitution from the subversion and degradation by the democrats in congress.With all the lying,deception,corruption we are witnessing by the dems. in control of congress,flying the flag upside-down is the least good,patriotic Americans can do to send the message that we want our country back.
Posted by bart on August 1, 2007 10:10 AMsorry, that was me @ 10:06am
Michelle
Posted by Michelle on August 1, 2007 10:11 AMAnother female stifled and by another female: Don't stone me: From my loins come four daughters. I appreciate the flag flap that educates me and thanks to the contributors of "Redneck."
Deicide Corner: The historical content of the Bible must naturally submit to the same criticism as all other historical material, without prejudice to scholarship. No one could be more interested in this than the student of social life. With reference to the divinity of Jesus, he agrees with what Jesus himself has said in the so-called synoptical gospels, and all later theories should go back to them for proof. Concerning redemption, he cannot believe that Jesus has atoned for the world, nor that the theory to the effect that Christ is the world's proxy is correct, and he believes that these gospels can be interpreted in a more liberal fashion.”
-- Letter from Th. N. Mohn to the Rev. Pastor J. Olsen
Wel, Marie, I'm a vet and I don't personally find flying the flag upside down particularly disturbing. This country was founded on dissent, and the day we cease having dissenters among us will be the day we close up shop.
As to having the troops storm a house when seeing a flag flying upside and responding to a signal of "dire distress", I think the writer is exercising a fertile imagination of "what ifs". In a combat zone that may well be a signal of distress which requires attention and/or action. But along the residential streets of Denver or Aurora, etc., I have very serious doubts that "dire distress" is being signaled. What's a civilian going to do: a home invasion/break in is occurring -- "time out Mr. Bad Guy, I have to go out and turn my flag upside down".
Posted by Trinity on August 1, 2007 11:21 AMSomeone suggested that we all fly our flags or wear flag pins upside down on Labor Day to get Bushes attention.
Good luck with that concept. He has God on his side.
JJ, the majority only get to rule if the nine say so.
Democracy is government by big stick, he who has the law ( the big stick) on his side, rules until the nine take the stick away.
Posted by on August 1, 2007 02:23 PMTrinity is right. When we lose all dissension in this country, we lose the country (we're currently being pushed toward the edge of the abyss as it is).
Posted by on August 1, 2007 02:58 PMMichelle,
I think you have mis-read Marie's statements.
Marie's point is that the flag stands for something more than the political views of a particluar person. Marie is offended by the upside down flag because she thinks that this woman is making the statement that there is nothing more important then her own views. In Marie's view, the woman with her upside down flag is renouncing the commonality of our shared principles in favor of her own views which is arrogant and disrespectful.
I am also offended by this upside down flag but in a diffent way. I think this individual likely wanted to attract attention to herself by offending her neighbors. It is not reasonable to think that flying a flag upside down is going to convince anyone of anything. To me this is moral exhibitionism and it is reprehensible.
But there is a more important point.
The reason that dissent is valuable is that is that the debate between differing views often results in a new view that is superior. This can only happen if there is productive discourse. Productive discourse is not possible unless the views are shared in an atmosphere of mutual respect.
Mutual respect requires tolerance. Tolerance requires respect. When you set out to offend someone that you disagree with, you do not foster discourse. In fact you hinder free interchange.
Your original post contained:
"If that was too much for you to comprehend, here you go......"
Even if true (which you have no way of knowing), that remark is not tolerant and is not intended to encourage an exchange of ideas. It is meant to insult, intimidate and silence.
Marie's comment on the other hand
" Maybe I do not agree with the administration that sent us to war in Iraq, but never have I even considered hanging the American flag upside-down..."
Does tend to encourage debate by establishing first common ground and then the point of disagreement.
Here again, Marie's understanding of the issues is superior to yours.
Posted by James Jones on August 1, 2007 04:43 PMJames Jones,
You say Marie is offended by the upside down flag because "the homeowner" is stateing nothing more important then her own views....
So, why is Marie's thoughts more important than others? Why should Marie's thoughts trump others who LEGALLY have a right to do what they do?
You find the actions of this homeowner reprehensible. Ok, good. You are entitled to your thoughts. I wonder tho, if you don't care for the way attention was brought about, then surely you are against bumper stickers, yard signs ect which also bring about attention, it is a way of expressing ones self which is still legal. Maybe the thoughts expressed in bumper stickers don't mesh with your own but hey. It's someones point of view.
As is flying the flag upside down.
This forum, James Jones, is an open one. It is used for debate, to learn and to criticize. If you don't like how I posted a comment then I suggest you grow some skin.
Posted by Michelle on August 1, 2007 07:53 PMMichelle,
Now you have missed my point. I told you that,
"Mutual respect requires tolerance. Tolerance requires respect."
I did not tell you, and it is not true, that tolerance (or thick skin) requires silence. When I tell you why you are wrong, I am not intolerant of you personally: I am only intolerant of being wrong.
The founders wrote the freedom of speech into the Constitution because they understood despots. They did not write anything into the Constitution about the freedom to listen because governments are powerless to abridge that right. We can only lose our ability to listen if we don't exercise it.
In this thread you have missed first, Marie's point and, second, mine. That evidences that while you speak quite freely, you don't appreciate the value of listening.
Posted by James Jones on August 2, 2007 06:03 AM