A few statistics went unnoted by Bush
Here are a few statistics President Bush omitted from his recently televised speech (source: www.icasualties.org/oif):
From January 2007 through Sept. 10, there were 773 American fighters killed in Iraq (verified by the Department of Defense). From Jan. 11 through August 2007 there were 2,640 American fighters wounded and returned to duty. There were 2,225 American fighters wounded so seriously that they could not return to duty. The total wounded was 4,865.
These numbers are much larger than the “1,500 enemy fighters in Iraq that have been killed or captured since January” and that, according to the Rocky, so pleased local Bush supporters Mike and Deana Mobley (“Bush’s speech finds loyal listeners/Couple’s twin sons both serve in Iraq,” Sept. 14).
In addition, 16,622 Iraqi Security Forces and civilians have died since January 2007 as a result of the war. I urge anyone who is interested in what this war is costing Americans to visit the site mentioned above. Further information can be found at www.iraqbodycount.org and www.centcom.mil. Don’t just look at the picture painted by an administration that has lied to us since before the war.
Dolores Lopushansky, Littleton
Yes , do not forget to also visit 9/11 an inside job.com Or the daily Kos for more anti war rhetoric and lies.
Posted by want2hate america on September 25, 2007 04:46 AMwant2hate america clearly doesn't get it - most of us who oppose the war in Iraq had no problem with going after Osama bin Laden - you remember him - mastermind of 9/11 who is still free & thumbing his nose at the US. Most of the world (including moderate members of Islam - and yes they do exist) was willing to work with us on capturing him. But NO - the administration in general, and Bush in particular, CHOSE to go after Saddam Hussein which has resulted in the following:
1) destabilization is a country which could only be controlled by the despot in power there (or did you forget why Bush the first refused to take him out in 1991)
2) censure if not downright enmity from former allies who understood that preemptive wars have unforseen consequences - perhaps because many of them were victims of Hitler's preemptive attacks on their countries
3) making the US the poster child for AlQaeda (and other jihadist sect) recruitment
If Bush were telling the truth about the progress in Iraq, he would do as their freely elected government has asked & get the US out of there - wait - we don't LIKE their freely elected government, despite the fact that one of the MANY lies told about the war in Iraq was that it was to bring democracy to Iraq (leading to democracy in the middle east in general).
I can understand the parents wanting to support their sons - and perhaps suffering from denial about the state of affairs in Iraq (meanwhile, Afghanistan is deteriorating daily back to the point it was at when wen we "freed" it from the Taliban - and bin Laden was hiding there). What I don't get - if somewhere between 20-30% of the US actually believes we belong in Iraq is why recruitment is do low - if 20-30 of the families in this country sent at least one immediate family member (husband, wife, son or daughter), would we still be so short-handed that we have folks over there on their 3rd, 4th & 5th tours of duty in the middle east? Would the US have to resort to hiring mercenaries who have been caught commiting murder of civilians ON TAPE - but who cannot be prosecuted because the administration has given them a free pass? Wait - the phrase chicken hawk comes to mind here - we want a military to protect us, but we want someone else to make the sacrifices. Did I get it want2hate america?
Posted by Mary on September 25, 2007 05:54 AMok mary and doleores how many kids were killed on the roads during this same time? why are you not up in arms that it is safer for them to be in iraq that on our roads here at home? maybe you should also remember that everyone in the military today enlisted on their own and was not drafted. when they signed up they were told what their job would be.
also providing actual numbers is not statistics. but once again the true hate Bush hate America crowd is out. may you all have a miserable life refusing to look for any good but always whinning
Mary,
1) Bush 1 didn't go after Saddam because Europe wouldn't cooperate unless he promised not to.
2) France seems to have changed their mind about Iraq. Their new president supports Bush.
3) The Jihadists claim to have been at war with us since 1980. Just read what they write.
We should still be in Vietnam
Posted by Typical GOP Stooge on September 25, 2007 07:21 AMand since January of this year, on an average 4000 abortions daily have occured
Posted by on September 25, 2007 07:27 AMWhat the left tends to forget or refuses to acknowledg is that here in America it took from 1776 to 1787.Eleven thats 11 years to form our known democracy. They seem to think that at a snap of the fingures or turn of a switch everything is hunky dory.
Eleven years that included 6 years of revelution. Hmmm now we are 6 years into Iraq and magically democracy isnt blossoming. Maybe it will take another 5 years to come into play and work. Then again with the help (cut and run0 that these leftist want to pass on it may never take hold in an oppressive islamic state.
Posted by fogetfull left on September 25, 2007 07:36 AMAnd the right forgets we had no business attacking Iraq in the 1st ( thats FIRST place). Iraq never attacked the US, we had NO business mingling in their affairs or country. We were supposed to be after the terrorists responsibe for 9/11, remember? Yet we abandoned Bin Laden and pulled out of Afghanistan to launch an attack on a sovereign country. Bush 'cut and ran' from pursuing Bin Laden to attack a country because we didnt like that countrys politics ( tho we do like their oil)
Posted by fogetful right on September 25, 2007 08:26 AM@ "forgetful left" : Apparently you need a little bit of a history lesson--or at least a refresher before go misrepresenting history.
The American colonies declared their independence from Great Britain in 1776. The following "six years of revolution" were America and France fighting to wrest control of the colonies away from Great Britain. That was not--as we see in Iraq--six years of internal strife, division, and warfare upon ourselves. Nor was it six years marked by the occupation of foreign military forces and intransigence at our own self-determination.
The ensuing six years between the surrender of Cornwallis (in 1781) and the ratification of the Articles of Confederation (in 1787) were not spent sitting around twiddling thumbs. In fact, Franklin and Jefferson were in France negotiating a treaty to define the boundaries of the new nation while the Revolutionary War was still ongoing.
In an ideal world, regardless of the form of state the Iraqis want, it is their decision to make, not ours. Bowing to the realities of the region with a primitivistic and fundamentalist Islamic rule, we have some obligation to help guide the Iraqis in the right direction--but that need not entail us being an occupying force.
Suggesting we "just wait another 5 years" to find out if they can get their act together is sheer lunacy. What do we do then, if they haven't gotten their act together? Stay another 5 years? "Stop! Or I'll say 'Stop!' again!"
Posted by Becca on September 25, 2007 08:35 AMmary,Would you like to welcome dolores to your village idiot club?
Posted by Keith on September 25, 2007 08:42 AMforgetful left,
What you are leaving out - or have forgotten yourself - is an additional several centuries of completely different cultural development, from the Magna Charta on. There is no comparable historical precedent anywhere in the Middle East for anything even remotely resembling Western Parliamentary forms of government. And, one can see that today in the great problems the Turks are having with a form of secular Parliamentary government - since the end of World War 1 - and the surge of religious fanaticism in their country.
Democracy is not even close to resembling some kind of "instant coffee". Nor is it exportable - especially not at the end of a gun, in the hands of an invasionary military force.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 25, 2007 08:43 AMMary, one of the unspoken reasons we are in Iraq is to deplete our national army and national guard. That way it will be that much easier to bring in UN troops to be peacekeepers when we reach that stage of the agenda.
want2hate America is probably a high ranking member of the Republican party.
And, maybe if the powers that be actually told us the strategic reason we are in Iraq, public opinion of our occupation of Iraq might change, but then again, maybe not.
Lets see Keith's most popular inputs:
1. Village Idiots.
2. America haters.
3. Facts.
4. Democrats love terroists.
5. Democrats want us to loose the war.
6. Democrats love Osama Bin Laden.
6. Democrats are liars.
7. Bush tells the truth.(and facts)
Keith recess is over turn off your computer and go back to class.
Posted by larry on September 25, 2007 09:31 AMDarnit..... we had a country that took about 6 years to form a constitution.... It was a monarchy before with war-like overtones and a strong military background. They were not ready for democracy and the freedoms that can be gotten from that. We should abandon them as they have no way to ever work within a democratic structure. It simply cannot be done..
Whoopsie.... They did it. Japan was conquered and turned into a functioning republic. Oh, and they were in the same boat as Iraq. Perhaps they didn't know they could not handle democracy.
Posted by Dravur on September 25, 2007 09:43 AMIran's President lies; America's President lies; who is the biggest liar?
I read Bush attacks Iraq because Saddam tried to kill his dad; I read he attacks for oil; I read, in his words, that the Jesus Christ sent him on a mission; however, by omitting facts in his speech, Bush is a liar.
Who is the biggest liar?
Posted by Richard Grimes r22037@yahoo Deicide, Free: Freethought ffrg.org on September 25, 2007 10:15 AMI don't think comparing Iraq and Japan as being in the same boat is valid. Japan already had a cohesive population. Iraq's has been fractured for centuries under several ruling elements who weren't, in the long run, any more successful than we'll be. Maybe they can agree on a partition plan and solve many of their own problems. Let's just steal their oil and let them figure it out.
Posted by Stan Broyles on September 25, 2007 10:19 AMDravur,
Japan was also an extremely homogeneous country - culturally, religiously & ethnically - with no internally warring factions. Whoops, you forgot to mention that, didn't you? So they "weren't in the same boat as Iraq," but nice try.
Posted by drew on September 25, 2007 10:41 AMDolores is right to point out the statistics that went "unnoticed" by Bush. Good ctitique.
But interestingly someone came out yesterday & said that W Bush is the worst president in our history and that if the Repubs. want to salvage anything in next year's elections, Bush had better go "hide in a ditch." Who do you think it was? Al Gore? Hillary? Wrong - Donald Trump. Even your icons are turning on this idiot now - Trump said that it's Bush & his useless administration's fault that the US is losing its place as the world's leader.
Guess the writing's on the wall for the Republics going forward. Shame!
Posted by drew on September 25, 2007 10:49 AMPosted by larry on September 25, 2007 09:31 AM
You forgot
Democrats are traitors.
That is Keith at his most elegant. Three word sentences are taxing for this 4th grade dropout. Posting a coherent and rational perspective on an actual issue would be akin to teaching a goldfish how to drive a semi. It ain't ever going to happen with this limited mental skills character.
If he wants to monotonously engage in personal attacks I say let's return the favor ala MoveOn.org. Who needs to discuss "facts" when we can anonymously insult each other. What do you think Keith? Should we follow your example? Be warned though we know big words and can assemble wickedly crafty sentences. You might be at a disadvantage if we Lefties decide to follow you into the gutter.
Posted by Wes on September 25, 2007 11:18 AMThat 11 year democracy delay is big stuff on right wing radio. Sure beats reading history and thinking.
Couple of Anon men on here today? What are you afraid of? Pick a name.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 25, 2007 11:27 AMdam it i forgot to go to the bathroom again, so went in my pants instead. thid is kinda embarrassing like most of my posts, but could sumbody help change me? this one is kinda poopy...maybe an american could do it?
Posted by Keith on September 25, 2007 11:37 AMThe letter writer left out a couple more statistics of interest (from the same source): In every month of 2007, the death toll for American soldiers has been higher than the corresponding month of 2006. I guess that makes sense, though. That's just basic math. More troops in the country = more troops killed.
In every month of 2007 except August, there have been more Iraqi civilian casualties than in the corresponding month in 2006.
Niether of these statistics are challenged by anybody, and yet we still never hear about them. You would think SOMEBODY would care that since the "surge" death tolls have risen accross the board.
Posted by Grog on September 25, 2007 11:47 AMKeith
I get it man. I like the self-humor. I'm just asking for a comment on the issue not us. I don't think this forum is a "fight" over who is more right (pun intended). It is chance to share views and find out what other people think.
I think Dolores is wrong about her numbers. Bush was using 1,500 per month not in total. This whole emphasis on statistics if so reminiscent of the body counts in Vietnam. We don't win this ideological struggle with statistics.
Posted by Wes on September 25, 2007 11:53 AMWes you will not get comments on issues from Keith. A person has to understand the issues to be able to respond to them. I have several times tried to get Keith to tell us what war he has fought in but he is like his hero "W" he never fought in one. He can can only use those three word sentences like "BRING EM ON" and run down people like myself and John Kerry that did fight in one. Just like "W" he can only run his mouth.
Posted by larry on September 25, 2007 12:18 PMKeith is just trying to keep it pithy.
Posted by on September 25, 2007 12:43 PMWes, larry,
On another line, on another topic, one writer made the observation that the greatest deception the devil ever accomplishes is to convince people he does not exist.
In point of fact, I think that this website proves to have those who have out done even the devil.
"AnAmerican" and his confreres and claque, have manged to deceive everyone into thinking that they ARE NOT the best, and most outstanding, spokes-persons that the whole of the "conservative", and Republican, followers have representing them. And in perpetrating this deception, they have also managed to convince people that there actually is something to "conservative" and Republican "positions" other than merely often repeated meaningless, senseless, and pointless personal remarks, accompanied by insults and ridiculous aspersions.
And, in so accomplishing this mis-direction, they have also managed to fool the people who actually view the forum as a place for the exchange of ideas into thinking that, somewhere, somehow, someone will actually speak to the point, answer questions, stick to the topic, and truly represent "conservative" and Repuliccan thought, while also providing sensible and intelligent discussion.
I've said it before; and I'll even use the, "I told you so" approach to say it again. Without doubt "AnAmerican" and his confreres and claque are the foremost, outstanding, and principal spokes-persons for anything and everything "conservative" and Republican. And their trick of out deceiving the devil gives us the best possible example of the truth of that assessment.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 25, 2007 12:51 PMTo 6:49am:
Your comment comparing troop fatalities to the numbers of people killed on our roadways every year, and then asking what the big deal is, has to be one of the most psychopathic, sadistic, demented comments I've seen on this forum for a while. And somehow in that sick, twisted pathetic brain of yours you truly believe you support our troops. You are filth.
To Dravur and Forgetful Left,
We're not in Iraq to form a new democracy. We're there to fight terrorists, remember? Or did the reasoning for being over there just change again?
But Dan Iraq was not involved in 9/11. If your argument is to be taken seriously then we should have invaded Saudi Arabia. We didn't invade the country that 15 of the 19 terrorists came from therefore our objective was not to fight terrorists and was openly hostile to religious fanatics. Actually it was originally to find WMD but that is a fairy tale of another kind.
As hard as it is to believe for those who stellar pro-war Christians who pray every night for a mushroom cloud obliterating hundreds of thousands of Iranians, it is possible to fight radical extremists through non-lethal means. Fighting terrorism is as much about helping villages obtain clean water as it is killing people on the streets who happen across sniper bait. I know that doesn't float their boat for the death and destruction crowd but if you are really serious about fighting terrorism then you need to understand that it isn't a nation state that can be conquered. You can't reach out to moderates by killing their kids.
Posted by Wes on September 25, 2007 05:06 PMWMD's
I thought we went there for WMD's, rememer the mushrom cloud scenario? But then it was Iraqi Freedom, Now it is an Iraqi democracy. Whatever it takes to completely rob the US of it's treasury for the remainder of Bush's term. But those fiscal conservatives never care about the cost of this fiasco. Billions upon Billions are missing and wasted daily by this the first privatized war in history!! Keep fighting for our freedoms, the freedom to keep a dime in the US..
Posted by Karl Cheney on September 25, 2007 05:10 PMSorry Dan. I just reread you posts and figured out you were being cynical.
I agree with you that those who equate troop deaths with bee sting deaths and automobile accidents and abortions are some of the lowest form of citizens on this forum. Such scum to say that the sacrifices of these young men and women are not all that significant. What trash to trot out such insignificant statistics.
Posted by Wes on September 25, 2007 05:23 PMOil,
It's always been about oil. Greenspan finally 'fessed up, but as you remember,the Bush league never had American Liberals fooled.
We knew that from the start, and tried to warn you, but the Cons were very good at fooling the public with diversionary tactics. (WMDs etc,)
You really can't blame the public though, as we all wanted revenge for 9/11.
The fact that 19 criminals died with all the innocents didn't help.
We had nobody to punish, but George, Dick, Karl and Al came up with the next best thing....torture.... now THERE'S a punishment for you. too bad it's forbidden by our Constitution.
Unfortunately, they found a way to circumvent that little detail too. They just didn't bring the P.O.Ws of the so-called "war on terror" back to the USA ...problem solved.
Unfortunately again, it's only a matter of time before our troops are captured and tortured because WE did it.
WHEN that happens (and it may already have, we have no way of knowing),
the parents, wives, husbands etc, can thank George, Dick, Karl and Al.
But don't wait for them to tell you they're sorry.
because as they have already demonstrated that they don't give a damn about you and your family members.
To them, it's just business as usual.
The oil business, that is, and business has been very good.
The lives and pain of your son, daughter, wife, husband, etc. is merely the price we must pay for stealing oil from Iraq for Texaco, et al.
Just remember, American Liberals were right. You may want to keep that in mind the next time the Bush league wants to try somthing similar. And they will, and soon.
Greed knows no bounds, and has no scruples.
dmz claims, "...the Bush league never had American Liberals fooled."
He didn't have to (and, most likely was incapable of it) because the Liberals have been fooling themselves with delusional, incoherent thoughts for years.
Posted by on September 25, 2007 10:00 PM10:00 anon facsist,
To quote Dick, " Go f*** yourself".
Karl Cheney,
Did you hear that Operation Iraqi Freedom (O.I.F.) was originally was supposed to be called Operation Iraqi Liberteration (O.I.L.)? No wonder it was changed.
Posted by Stan Broyles on September 26, 2007 09:32 AM