Abu Ghraib prison
Steve Olson
This letter has not been edited.
So? Just because you write that Bush authorized the "torture" does not make it true. If you have any proof, please trot it out. Funny thing is, the ones who did it, were caught and put on trial. How does that make it Bush's fault? Oh yeah, everything is his fault. If you can make a case, do it. If you just want to slam some innuendo, the daily kos is a great place to hang. 1 billion conspiracy theories, no waiting.
Posted by Dravur on September 5, 2007 02:36 PMUh...a few pictures...get over it. It sure beats beheading the bastards...like they do to our captured soldiers. I say tourture away.
Posted by on September 5, 2007 03:17 PMI think what the letter writer is trying to say is that why weren't the people in charge of the policy reprimanded at all? The grunts were just doing their orders. It is the policy-makers that should be held responsible.
Note, Dravur, that he did NOT say that bush did it. He DID say the officer was reprimanded for whistle-blowing, a bone-chlling thought in its own right.
Basically, the army said, "no, we're not charging you for torturing someone....we're charging you for telling someone about how we told you to toture". And that is f'ed up.
I won't even get started with 3:17.
Posted by Tbone on September 5, 2007 03:31 PMummm, Actually, he was charged with several charges, most dismissed, some due to procedural errors, but the one presented here is not quite what the OP says it is... Surprise?
He was charged with discussing this while it was under investigation. In no way was he a whistle blower as intimated. He was ordered to keep quiet while the investigation is ongoing, a very common practice in and out of the army. Ever heard of a gag order?
So, your statement is patently false, tbone. He was reprimanded, the lowest form of punishment for this "crime". Im glad he came through it.
So, again, this wasn't George W bush's attempt to silence anyone. The process went through it's course. The people who did it have had their punishment meted out and still the left is not happy. but they sure are good at insinuations.
Posted by Dravur on September 5, 2007 03:49 PMI think we ought to just start carving the heads off the captured terrorists. That's their preferred method -- why disappoint them. Send them to Allah with head under arm.
Posted by on September 5, 2007 04:04 PMOnce again Dravur....no one said W was trying to silence anyone. Otherwise my bad on what he was charged with.
Posted by Tbone on September 5, 2007 04:39 PMLots of input here from the mental ward.
Here's a big surprise. Rumsfeld had the Department of Defense investigate the Department of Defense and the Department of Defense found that the Department of Defense was in the clear.
Since we were trying to show the Iraqis we were civilized, and since all prisons suffer the risk of uncivilized behavior taking place, any rational person would realize that it was vital that Abu Ghraib be free of uncivilized behavior.
There was a time when commanders were responsible for what went on in their command.
Posted by Truth on September 5, 2007 04:44 PMAh come on T-Bone, I really want some of your words of wisdom. I'm sure you got real educated about war while watching television. Enlist, fight, then talk about what you know or don't know. You think we gained intelligence in any war by talking nicely with the enemy? God this country has gone soft. War is not nice, nor pretty...we need to do what we need to do to get the job done. And in every war, intelligence was key. I think we just had a more patriotic media and society that knew what to report, and what not to report. Atrocities are a inherent evil in war, because war is not civilized...it's a fact for those who have been there...not sitting on their couch playing arm chair quarterback.
Sincerely,
3:17
Posted by on September 5, 2007 05:52 PMAgain liberals protecting terrorist who want to kill us,And again not pretecting our troops or American people.I just saw Phil Specter on Tv,god hes is ugly,he looks like nancy pelosi!
Posted by Keith on September 5, 2007 05:54 PMAgain liberals protecting terrorist who want to kill us,And again not pretecting our troops or American people.I just saw Phil Specter on Tv,god hes is ugly,he looks like nancy pelosi!
Posted by Keith on September 5, 2007 05:58 PMCLOSE IT DOWN AS WE ARE SO MEAN TO THEM. LETS JUST ASK A QUESTION AND IF WE DONT LIKE THE ANSWER WE WILL SEND THEM TO THE 41 VIRGIN PLACE AFTER WE WACK OFF THERE HEADS REAL SLOW AND ON VIDEO. NOW THAT THEY UNDERSTAND.
Posted by on September 5, 2007 06:29 PMHow about a little perspective here-
We currently have U.S. soldiers SERVING TEN YEARS for putting underwear on captured terrorists heads.
Compared to ...?
Posted by Get Real on September 5, 2007 08:21 PMAttention all left wing extremists: Putting underwear on someone's head and piling them into a naked pyramid is childish, degrading, and stupid. It is extremely embarrassing to the US and the army for this to have occcured. It is not however, torture.
Attention all right wing extremists. Torture does routinely occur in the cells and tent city of your favorite cable tv news sherrif, Joe Arpaio of Maricopa Co (Phoenix) AZ. One of the victims of Joe's brownshirts was shot in the testicles with a tazer 22 times. Not 22 seconds, 22 times at a minimum of 5 seconds each. That is torture (that the taxpayer's of Maricopa Co paid millions to the tortured victims survivors for).
Posted by Geo on September 6, 2007 12:41 PMAwe poor pitiful criminals don't get treated like Cinderella. It's about time someone starts treating them like criminals and not like they are at a 5 star resort.
We need more Sherrifs like Joe Arpaio.
He has been sherrif a long time is that an elected position?
If it is , the people have spoken.
Stop all the politically correct crap and start treating criminals with the same disrespect they showed their victims.
No tears here.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 6, 2007 01:16 PMAmen, what would you say the main objectives of incarceration are?
Posted by Bango Skank on September 7, 2007 06:37 PMThere are companies that would pay millions of dollars for that kind of advertising. But we gave it to the Jihadists for free. Apparently there are ways to support the Jihadists that are legal, provided you support Bush.
Posted by Truth on September 8, 2007 08:06 AMI think the main objectives of incareration is to make their lives so miserable they will never want to step foot in a prison again.
No TV's.No visits,No Mail,They must work around the prison or stay in their cells 24 hrs a day.
No personal items,No pictures,no nothing.
They may read books or hopefully the prison will have classes of some sort.
Education if they want it will be available.
The reason I say ,no visits.No mail,no packages ,is to cut down on contraband. Their cells should not have anything but their books and clothes that are provided by the prison.
If they want out of their cells and can be trusted they can get some time in an exercise yard or help clean ,mop floor etc...
If you have any gang affilliation you do not get out of your cell at all.
Let's stop making prison comfortable and start making it a place to learn your way out of prison,with no outside influences.
Of course the dangerous ones have to be treated totally different,like the lifers.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 8, 2007 08:53 AMAmen says ”I think the main objectives of incareration is to make their lives so miserable they will never want to step foot in a prison again”
Says it all really, although I wonder if you are serious or just pulling my chain.
From this “make their lives miserable” attitude blossoms abuse, this is why guards will ignore signs of mental or medical distress in the prisoners, and how violence and gangs thrive inside prison.
The guards see it as part of their role to inflict humiliation, degradation, and retribution on the prisoners.
Hence Abu Ghraib – the natural result of the attitude that imprisonment itself is insufficient punishment, that a bit of misery needs to be added.
Here’s my suggestion: pick five criminals at random and dredge through their life history.
My prediction is that you will tend to find a life of misery and degradation leading to an attitude that life is hard, unfair, and full of violence and victimization.
Your plan is to drop them into prison where exactly those conditions are made to flourish, and thus the prisoner’s outlook is confirmed at every turn not only from their fellow inmates, but by your lights, from the entire institution itself.
They serve out their sentences, learning mostly how to prey on others and avoid being preyed on.
Then they return to civilian life where their options are narrowed because they are marked, and because they are now even less integrated to society than before.
Little wonder the recidivism rate is so high, when revenge is the primary consideration all round.
Posted by Bango Skank on September 8, 2007 07:00 PMOf course, Amen's post is, as usual, that of a wild woman. She probably thinks that since Mexico is said to treat prisoners the way she likes it is a safe place to walk the streets at night. Over two million in prison, and good old Amen, without knowing more than perhaps a few, takes it upon herself to pass judgment on all of them.
Unfortunately, there will always be people like that.
What is wrong with educating themselves out of prison.Evidently they didn't get an education when they should of.
No outside influences and make them get an education or sit in their cells so they can't harm another person.
Intensive education is they way to help prisoners come out ready to work and get a decent paying job.
I just don't have an sympathy for the really bad ones ,like people who kill someone or harm a child.
There are plenty of prisoners that if educated could be productive.
I just think they should be cut off from outside influences because outside influences is probably what derailed alot of them from getting an education.
If a prisoner doesn't want an education,then he or she sits in a cell or cleans the prison or whatever.
What a bunch of whiney jerks,bleeding heart liberals for criminals, unbelievable.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 10, 2007 10:36 AMMs.Amen said ” What a bunch of whiney jerks,bleeding heart liberals for criminals, unbelievable”
So now I am “whiney” because you overreached on your “make their lives miserable” blurt?
Other than shades of “re-education camps”, your training ideas are fine.
Your “make their lives miserable” idea however, is just plain stupid, for the reasons I have already given you.