Atheism
Re: Article in the 9/16/07 News - Page 1 - re. atheists I had to laugh (a bit condescendingly) at the logic expressed in your article Sunday, to paraphrase, “We don’t like what people do with religion, therefore there is no God.” If you’re going to be an atheist, you should at least ground your decision with something a bit more scientific, and a lot more logical. I’ve been hearing variations of this argument my whole life, and it just doesn’t hold water. It can be used to turn away from a Church or from Religion in general, but it fails to address the existence of God.
This letter has not been edited.
When I read Kocsis's letter I had to laugh (a little condescendingly) - I always laugh when I see a God-botherer invoking "logic."
Here's an explanation of how "belief" works (from Sam Harris). See how this grabs you for "logic":
How to Believe in God (a perpetual motion, wishful thinking machine)
Six Easy Steps
1. First, you must want to believe in God.
2. Next, understand that believing in God in the absence of evidence is especially noble.
3. Then, realize that the human ability to believe in God in the absence of evidence might itself constitute evidence for the existence of God.
4. Now consider any need for further evidence (both in yourself and in others) to be a form of temptation, spiritually unhealthy, or a corruption of the intellect.
5. Refer to steps 2-4 as acts of “faith.”
6. Return to 2.
post above is mine
Posted by drew on September 27, 2007 02:02 PMSorry Kocsis, you've got it backward. Athiests don't have to prove that your God doesn't exist, you have to prove that your God does exist.
Good luck proving a God that sanctions intolerance and has his children killed in his name.
Posted by JohnPaulX on September 27, 2007 02:04 PMNot taking either side, but would this artical been on the front page if it were about growing numbers of Christians?
Posted by Orionv on September 27, 2007 02:04 PMOrionv,
That's a moot point since, mercifully, the number of Christians is shrinking.
Posted by drew on September 27, 2007 02:12 PMIn the beginning, man created god in his own image.
Posted by JC on September 27, 2007 02:42 PMFairy tale boy laughs condescendingly? Dream on, Kocksis.
Posted by on September 27, 2007 03:21 PMdrew
I wouldn't fess up to the fact that I wrote the 6 steps to ingnorance and or as you put it a "Coruption of Intellect.
Just because you can't see the wind doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Your own existance and pondering such questions should give you some clue of a greater and far more intellegent being than yourself set everything around you in motion.
The mind blowing vastness of the universe should humble you and make thankful that he took time out to create you and gave you a meaningful purpose other than to just be here and be angry and bitter your entire life just to only look foward to the darkness and hopelessness of the grave.
What ever your beef with God is, it is only hurting your quality of life. You can't win that feud. Others have tried unsuccessfully .
I have never seen someone rise from the dead, walk on water, turn water into wine, or any other of the purported "miracles" in the bible. So why would I believe in such things unless there were convincing evidence for them? Not only is there no convincing evidence, there is no credible evidence whatsoever. Just because a lot of people believe in something doesn't make it true. Atheists are behaving rationally, religious believers are not.
Posted by Romulus on September 27, 2007 03:49 PMAnd no amount of prayer ever re-grew a lost limb.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 27, 2007 04:10 PMAnonymous,
You're the one desperately clinging to your idea of God because you're scared of what happens when you die. Sounds to me like YOU"RE the one with "quality of life" issues, doesn't it? I don't have a "beef with God" - only with those, like you, who wallow in ignorance & try to pull others in with them.
Posted by drew on September 27, 2007 04:13 PMGod is all there is – God is in All life everywhere.
Each person is a unique expression of God.
Each person has in them the power to co-create with God.
Mind is a creative force and we can use this force, this power, to create good for ourselves and all life.
Heaven is within us and we experience it to the degree we are conscious of it.
We believe in the eternal Goodness and Unity of all life.
That the God of all life is everywhere and our innermost God are One and the same God.
Jesus and his life experiences serve as the great example of the expression of God through man.
Interested, read Ernest Holmes
Posted by I am one with Spirit on September 27, 2007 04:41 PMPart of the insecurity in America regarding religion generally and Christianity specifically is how the current administration and how so many in the recently-dominant GOP Congress used their flavor of 'Christianity' as a mere cudgel rather than a devotional path to worship and respect the diety they profess to believe in. The immoral acts of this president and the enablement of those acts by the prior Congress naturally raise doubts as to the nature of the diety being worshiped (in the minds of believers) or set a new low standard for crass manipulation of the susceptible (in the minds of non-believers).
In otherwords, if Bush is being guided by 'God/Jesus' as he purports to be, then there is something profoundly defective with that particular version of Christianity. It is legitimate to ask, within the pantheon of that religion, whether he has been under the influence of the Father of Lies/Satan, rather than Jesus, given the deception, division, and discord that he has sowed. Makes even a fellow 'Christian' want to second guess any commonalities in their belief with such a man.
For non-believers, this has only reinforced the -worst- of mixing politics and religion.
Posted by on September 27, 2007 04:57 PMWMD
Religion is the biggest WMD ever created by mankind!!
Posted by Karl Cheney on September 27, 2007 05:50 PMI'm still waiting for somebody to explain to me how the existence of a supreme being makes life worthwhile. According to many religions, Western and Eastern, this life is a trial to determine what happens to you in your next life, judged by an all-knowing superbeing who--presumably--already knows the outcome of all our lives before we've lived them, which renders the process pointless right there. (Being God must be terribly dull when you think about it. No surprises, nothing to look forward to.) In other words, we humans are merely something for God to kill time with, like a child playing Barbies. And somehow creationists find shame in the very idea of evolution--as they so quaintly put it, "from the goo to the zoo to you," which at least represents accomplishment and growth on our part.
The God written of in the Bible also isn't very nice. Selfish, jealous, vindictive, childish, insecure, capricious, neurotic, petty, egocentric, unfair, and at times downright cruel. Bible stories like the story of Job make God sound like a damn fool. (Talk about playing devil's advocate!)
So if Mr. Kocsis (that's my new favorite last name) is looking for science and logic, the nonbelievers still have the advantage. Believers are more inclined to take a sentimentalist approach: just look around at the big wide wonderful world. Or as they used to say in Sunday school, "[the unexplainable] is all part of God's great and glorious Plan!" Plan for what, alleviating boredom?
Posted by Hans Christian Brando on September 27, 2007 05:54 PMYou won't be an atheist for long once JHVH-1 unleashes the wrath of his Stark Fist upon you all! Only the children of the Yeti will be saved, taken aboard the saucers on X-Day!
GIVE ME SLACK OR KILL ME!
Posted by OverMan on September 27, 2007 06:29 PMOverman (over the top!) states:
"You won't be an atheist for long once JHVH-1 unleashes the wrath of his Stark Fist upon you all! Only the children of the Yeti will be saved, taken aboard the saucers on X-Day!
The true looney tunes are bubbling to the surface!
Posted by on September 27, 2007 06:42 PMThere is always one who does not get the joke. 6:42 your it.
Do you also think people really believe in the flying spaghetti monster?
Posted by Embarrassed to be you on September 27, 2007 07:07 PMEmbarrassed to be you: --
"There is always one who does not get the joke. 6:42 your it."
What part of over the top! did your infantile mind miss?
Posted by on September 27, 2007 07:14 PMBelievers should stay out in nature long enough to witness the "Nature red in tooth and claw" part. You know the old "Food Chain Cafe", where every night man is the special.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 27, 2007 09:37 PMAtheism requires a great deal of respect. Those who are true atheists, and only an individual determines this for himself, have freely chosen to hold a belief in contradiction to the majority of those around them. Atheists hold to a belief that there is no creator, no savior and no afterlife. Despite what many would find an overwhelming burden, atheists live lives in equal contentment to their believing neighbors. Their "faith" in the non-existence of God is not threatened because their co-workers and friends do believe in God. The majority live and let live. As with believers, a minority with bullhorns, either real or institutional, give all a bad image. Let those of us who do believe learn to live our faith in quiet humility. Let us accept each person and celebrate their existence rather than argue their belief. We could learn much from atheists if we could get rid of the loud ones on both sides. In the meantime repeat these words and follow the instruction within them, "Live and let live." For the fundamentalist viewpoint that instruction is in scripture. Refer to "shake the dust from your feet." Not one word instructing throwing threats or tantrums.
Posted by momma y on September 27, 2007 10:27 PMThank you Momma Y , i could have not said it better myself,
just because i choose not to believe in a higher power does not mean i am a bad guy, i have many friends on both sides of the fence and we all get along just fine, that is until some loudmouthed freak fundMENTAList gets their feelers hurt cause someone chooses not to believe in their faith or vice versa it is a two way street
and as i am an Atheist, i am not some freak funy either, i feel that prayer or the absence of should be kept to ones personal faith not beat upon others , this causes wars , look at the U.S.A. (fundamental Christian ) and the middle east ( fundamental Muslim) fighting cause one extrema meets the other. we have GW and the fighting jesuses against Alla and the fighting camel riders , there will never be a winner in this war because there will always be believers, people will fight tooth and nail over a belief system , but if you just have an idea , ideas can be changed and pondered upon and added to as well as philosophized and then ideas can be exchanged , it keeps it on a level playing field.
well i just wanted to put in my 2 cents for the day
your local friendly atheist
Hoimaha C.
whydoesgodhateamputees.com
Posted by on September 27, 2007 10:53 PMThank you Momma Y , i could have not said it better myself,
just because i choose not to believe in a higher power does not mean i am a bad guy, i have many friends on both sides of the fence and we all get along just fine, that is until some loudmouthed freak fundMENTAList gets their feelers hurt cause someone chooses not to believe in their faith or vice versa it is a two way street
and as i am an Atheist, i am not some freak funy either, i feel that prayer or the absence of should be kept to ones personal faith not beat upon others , this causes wars , look at the U.S.A. (fundamental Christian ) and the middle east ( fundamental Muslim) fighting cause one extrema meets the other. we have GW and the fighting jesuses against Alla and the fighting camel riders , there will never be a winner in this war because there will always be believers, people will fight tooth and nail over a belief system , but if you just have an idea , ideas can be changed and pondered upon and added to as well as philosophized and then ideas can be exchanged , it keeps it on a level playing field.
well i just wanted to put in my 2 cents for the day
your local friendly atheist
Hoimaha C.
Thank you Momma Y , i could have not said it better myself,
just because i choose not to believe in a higher power does not mean i am a bad guy, i have many friends on both sides of the fence and we all get along just fine, that is until some loudmouthed freak fundMENTAList gets their feelers hurt cause someone chooses not to believe in their faith or vice versa it is a two way street
and as i am an Atheist, i am not some freak funy either, i feel that prayer or the absence of should be kept to ones personal faith not beat upon others , this causes wars , look at the U.S.A. (fundamental Christian ) and the middle east ( fundamental Muslim) fighting cause one extrema meets the other. we have GW and the fighting jesuses against Alla and the fighting camel riders , there will never be a winner in this war because there will always be believers, people will fight tooth and nail over a belief system , but if you just have an idea , ideas can be changed and pondered upon and added to as well as philosophized and then ideas can be exchanged , it keeps it on a level playing field.
well i just wanted to put in my 2 cents for the day
your local friendly atheist
Hoimaha C.
Sharon B.
Let's make a list of nominees for the first course.
Ah yes, that one and this one but especially that very public one who never signs the postings. OK Bring on the chef.!
sorry for the mulitple post , dell computers suck
Posted by Hoimaha C. on September 27, 2007 11:32 PMHoimaha—that’s okay, the first time I joined the dialogue a few weeks ago, I posted the same comment three times. I have a Dell and I love it. My problem was the nut behind the wheel.
I find it curious that those of us who don’t believe in the typical Christian image of God express our beliefs from a calm place as if we’re comfortable with ourselves and the world around us. Those who believe in a very specific God get very emotional and turn the dialogue into a personal attack against all who don’t share their beliefs.
I don’t believe we could possibly know “all the ways things are” to borrow a quote from Dean Koontz. A character named Barty said it in a book called “From the Corner of His Eye.”
I find it a little too convenient and pat that God created man in his image. People believed in many different versions of God(s) before Jesus walked onto the scene. It sounds to me like some power-hungry clever men capitalized on a friendly charismatic man who knew a few things about winning friends and influencing people. They didn’t have the media coverage back then to verify claims. All they had was word of mouth. We all know how a story changes with each telling.
Reincarnation makes sense to me. There’s so much to be learned that we can’t possibly learn in one body in one lifetime.
We have physical evidence of evolution. To ignore this evidence only hurts one’s cause.
Why can’t we all be God? I believe the power of prayer works because as soon as we start to think about something the process of that thing coming to pass begins. When we think really hard about it and visualize it over and over we are creating it. I believe this is why the power of prayer works. When people take responsibility for their desires and put effort into watching them manifest is when prayer works. It’s much more effective than dropping a card into a suggestion box and hoping for the best. Attitude is everything.
These are just a few thoughts. I don’t have all the answers. Nobody does. I do know what feels right in my heart and gut. And I don’t feel the need to convince anybody else of anything. I only need to treat myself well and treat those around me well. I need to be aware at all times that there are consequences to my actions and if I can live with myself that’s what’s most important.
Diana,
I refuse to limit God to my ability to understand. I am a very conservative Catholic and my study of my faith indicates that you have a great truth in your post. Many men have hijacked faithful teachings for their own benefit. Some of their teachings, usually the ones with the most twisting, have outlived them, unfortunately. Keep on being true to yourself. That is the best advice I ever had.
Posted by momma y on September 28, 2007 04:42 AMThat's amusing... I can't find a September 16th edition of the News. Someone want to point out where this article is at or do we have to take it on faith.
Posted by Roger on September 28, 2007 08:52 AM"Nothing fails like prayer," along with faith, wish, hope, luck, and sin. These dudes just don't exist in nature. I am so elated prayer is as much a by-product, as with deity, from food intake: Got it?
If prayer worked: Just think of all the imprecatory prayers that go to god which invoke god's brimstone and fire as when Joshua's petition stopped the sun so he could slaughter all his enemies. Pat Robertson's imprecatory prayer to Jesus Christ to strike down Supreme Court Justices he does not like and to turn hurricanes from his neighborhood into somebody else's backyard: Ah, what a WMD (Weapon of Mass Destruction) prayer makes. Ah! "F" prayer, "F" God, "F" Bush whose god told him to attack Iraq. "F" the "jew" morphed into superstitious nonsense.
Deicide Corner: “I maintain that thoughtful Atheism affords greater possibility for human happiness than any system yet based on, or possible to be founded on, Theism, and that the lives of true Atheists must be more virtuous--because more human--than those of the believers in Deity, . . .
Atheism, properly understood, is no mere disbelief; is in no wise a cold, barren negative; it is, on the contrary, a hearty, fruitful affirmation of all truth, and involves the positive assertion of action of highest humanity.” -- Charles Bradlaugh
Note: "F" stands for "Fact" as in evolution is a fact, thus the "F" word.
Posted by Richard Grimes, Deicide r22037@yahoo (Free: FreeThought today ~~ ffrf.org on September 28, 2007 09:58 AMDeicide Corner (augmenting mommay's sentiment whose intellect is great yet embraces the greatest purveyor of atrocities ever created: Catholicism except for Big and Little J): “I maintain that thoughtful Atheism affords greater possibility for human happiness than any system yet based on, or possible to be founded on, Theism, and that the lives of true Atheists must be more virtuous--because more human--than those of the believers in Deity, . . .Atheism, properly understood, is no mere disbelief; is in no wise a cold, barren negative; it is, on the contrary, a hearty, fruitful affirmation of all truth, and involves the positive assertion of action of highest humanity.” -- Charles Bradlaugh
Posted by Richard Grimes, Deicide r22037@yahoo (Free: FreeThought Today ~~ ffrf.org on September 28, 2007 10:10 AMMomma y - Well Put. There are many things in this life we will never even begin to understand. I believe man has a limited grasp of all things possible in this universe. To claim otherwise is rather inane.
Diana - I do take exception to your statement that most nonbelievers are calmer than believers. You have extremes on both sides. And if you use this forum as a guide you find people like drew, Charles B, Sharon B, Old Grouch, etc... who are never content to hold their (non) beliefs to themselves. They always feel the need to lash out at any believer whether that person has pushed their belief or not.
The other thing I notice here is even when most (not all) believers state others are wrong, they do so without resorting to mocking, insults and name calling.
But I do agree with you in part. Regardless of your belief, trying to shove it thru someone elses closed window is never a good idea.
Posted by KW on September 28, 2007 10:16 AMAtheists are free thinkers that do not require dogma, holy ghosts, the devil, heaven, hell, magical virgin births, three wise men or faith beliefs in order to live meaningful lives.
"Faith is belief in something you know ain't true" Will Rogers
Posted by WILLIAM on September 28, 2007 10:24 AM3:48 made the comment that just because you can't see the wind doesn't mean it doesn't exist. A blind person can't see the wind but he can feel it. Does that mean god exists? No. Does it mean god doesn't? No.
Posted by Stan Broyles on September 28, 2007 10:31 AMWilliam; "...Atheists are free thinkers that..." "know" they are all knowing and all powerful and are the result of their own intellectual creation...no God was necessary.
Posted by on September 28, 2007 10:35 AM10:35, that is not true. Belief without evidence is unreasonable and a ridiculous waste of time. "I do not believe in God because I do not believe in Mother Goose". Unknown Quote
Posted by William on September 28, 2007 11:19 AMKW, Sharon B. says, lashing out again. I don`t insult except for calling Keith a maroon.
I have never said I was an atheist. You jumped to that conclusion all by yourself.
I dis believe in the Gods/Goddesses in holy books and myth. I have my own idea of God.
I think I have posted my God idea.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 28, 2007 11:36 AMSharon: I wasn't going to get into this letter, well, for reasons I think I explained in another location.
Anyway... I'm giving you my email here and am not worried that I'll be too bothered. It is my junk account. I'll give you my real address from there, okay?
iamwildwoman@hotmail.com
Kisses
Well, since no one was nice enough to point out the actual article, I'll just jump in:
The actions of the religious may not nullify the existence an actual creator, but it does dim the hopes of the existence of THEIR god being that all powerful, all knowing creator. And while many talk about 'a' God, what they really mean is 'their' God. Many a Christian fundamentalist wouldn't dream that the creator of the universe may be Allah or the Goddess. When they argue for creationism, they argue for THEIR god being the creator, not anyone else's.
Unknown to most religious, many atheists, if they are brought up in any faith, tend to look around a bit if they notice they have problems with their particular religion. Many will try out several religions before realizing the truth: they are all the same with slightly different dressings.
To stay on the Christian side of things so I don't screw up terminology, If God exists, why does He allow such things to be done in His name? It's one thing to say "free will", because that might be all well and good, but IN HIS NAME is the key. It is one thing to allow for people to screw up, it's another for Him to let them use HIS name for it. Seems counterproductive to getting the people He claims to love so much into Heaven, doesn't it. Unless He truly is that capricious and cruel, at which point, if He truly exists in such form as the Scriptures give Him, I go from becoming an atheist to an anti-theist and join the ranks of Hitchens in actively condemning Him, not just His followers... if He really exists at all, which I truly doubt.
Posted by Roger on September 28, 2007 12:17 PMWith Drew, Charles B, Sharon B, Mr Grimes and Co. I get more Preaching done to me on here from them than I ever have from any Religous group. Dont accept any BS from the Religous groups, why should I accept it from any of the "preachers" from the athiest groups? Because most of us are a tolerant group and accept the differences. Too bad it cant be approached by all. "TOLERANCE" is only a Fictional perspective from both sides and is not applicable.
Posted by on September 28, 2007 12:19 PMOK 12:19, God says SHE did not force you to read the opinion page and preach to us. ewven though she is fiction, you can still decide to not question, just believe and you will feel better about yourself. Belief is a theaf of reason.
Posted by BS on September 28, 2007 12:33 PMJust because you can't see the wind doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
Your own existance and pondering such questions should give you some clue of a greater and far more intellegent being than yourself set everything around you in motion.
You may not see wind per say, but you can quantitatively measure it, and observe winds effect on it’s environment. Our existence may be mind boggling to the masses, but it’s origin can be traced through DNA and the fossil record to the early primordial soup. To say that some god wished us into existence a mere 8000 years ago just shows one’s ignorance. Being ignorant is not a virtue. Science will never say you have to believe in any particular thing, that is strictly your prerogative. But science has been forced to go on the offensive to counter those that wish to indoctrinate the public into stupidity. If you believe a certain way, that’s great, but your beliefs do not belong in the public arenas like schools and are not welcome knocking on my door. There is nothing worse then some religious peddlers waking up our baby that has just fallen asleep.
Like many above, if religious nuts of all flavors would leave the rest of us alone, we would all be a lot happier.
Oh, wow, the original letter refers to an article in the Denver Post. Nice to know he knows which paper he's reading.
Posted by Roger on September 28, 2007 12:34 PMBS or is it Sharon? Not preaching to anyone just stating that those preaching non religion are sounding very much like those of the religious right. I see NO tolerance from either side of the extreme views. To try and twist your comments to say I am not tolerant is total BS and you know it. Live with your beliefs, discuss your beliefs with others, die with your beliefs. I acknowledge and respect that, but attacking others is not tolerance, not even close.
Posted by on September 28, 2007 12:43 PMDo you believe in RA, the sun god? Or how about Thor and Odin? The god of the underworld, or the god of war or beauty? No....? Most have no belief in the gods of old, those that are atheists have just gone one god more. Why is it not a controversy to disbelieve in multiple gods but it is controversial to disbelieve in all gods. And do not give me the argument that some one wrote it down in a book 1700 years ago.
Posted by Just dust in the wind on September 28, 2007 12:46 PM12:43, wrong again. Atheists have NO religions beliefs 12:43. Belief in god has its place, right along side of Santa Claus, The Tooth Fairy, the Easter Bunny, Holy Ghosts and Jesus. Non belief is not an extreme view. Belief in God requires faith and that is an extreme view.
Posted by BS on September 28, 2007 01:08 PMBelief in God is the prevailing consensus.
Posted by on September 28, 2007 01:12 PMBS get your undies out of a bundle. Preaching is not exclusive to (a) or any religion as it seems that you are trying to correlate. You are preaching non religion to a non religious person btw. Your bias and approaching hatred of any and all religions is clouding your vision here. Why is your beliefs more important than another"s? If and only if people of religious beliefs do not force those beliefs onto people such as you and I, why would we not use the same approach and not push our beliefs onto others?
Posted by on September 28, 2007 01:23 PM"drew, Charles B, Sharon B, Old Grouch, etc... who are never content to hold their (non) beliefs to themselves. They always feel the need to lash out at any believer whether that person has pushed their belief or not."
There you go again, KW, distorting the truth and you too, anonymous at 12:43. The only time I or any of my fellow posters "lash-out" is when we have to read the ignorant, self-righteous drivel posted by religious nuts (usually Christians)on this site. I personally only RESPOND to religious nonsense, I don't "preach" anything. Quite frankly, I really don't care what you believe - you can worship the toad that lives under your garden shed for all I care. Just keep it to yourself, for pity sake.
And if Jesus loves you, yippee! Spread the good news to your fellow God-botherers, but the vast majority of us don't want to know.
Posted by drew on September 28, 2007 01:31 PMDrew practice what you preach. They lash out so you do in kind? Nice thought there Drew. Reason you do it? Because they started it. Did that work with your parents in fighting with your siblings?
The excuses I hear on here is that most of the wars are fought in the world based upon 1 religion battling another in some form or way because they are not tolerant of each other. Now you and others are not tolerant of the religious groups(hell I argue with them all the time too) based upon beliefs / non beliefts etc.
Posted by on September 28, 2007 01:48 PMWell - it could be worse - at least my "intolerance" amounts to verbal assaults on ignorance - and I don't even initiate it. Quite mild when you consider that religious intolerance has slaughtered millions of people over the course of 2,000 years and still takes a huge toll today.
Why don't you focus your righteous indignation on that?
Posted by drew on September 28, 2007 02:09 PMDrew,
Your right. My bad. Lets use your method. Provoke those that we do not agree with. (While you and I agree more than not, usually accept and take your thoughts to heart. But not in this case)
Lets stop the killing. Stop the hatred. Stop the intolerance.
How do we do that? Lets kill those that are killing in the name of (insert specific GOD Here) and stop them. At all costs because then we can stop them from killing others.
You are justifying your provocation and hatred of others by using degrees of behaviour. While there are scholars out there that use numerical identification in labeling evil as it pertains to killng(1-22 with 22 being the worst). Ask the question of whether this is any consolation to the victim and their families with a numerical value?
Posted by on September 28, 2007 02:22 PMActually I was taught in college, Colorado School of Mines, to look for a valuable resource in an area at war and then look for those who need that resource. Merely wanting it is usually not enough. It must be a definite need. We find oil, diamonds, gold and rare minerals almost at the center of conflicts. In earlier conflicts you find prime farmland or land needed for some other purpose. I looked. I do not doubt that some have used every tool, including religion, to create a confrontation from which they will, or hope to, benefit. It is fairly simple to let those who disagree in religious matters begin a verbal conflict. Extremists on both sides can be easily convinced the only way their view can be treated fairly is to destroy all other opinions by destroying those who hold them. But, have some real grim fun. Look at all conflicts since about 1700 including those here in North America. Always an economic reason either hiding in the background or used as a battle cry. Religion is a very easy tool because too many of us are insecure in our faith and afraid of any challenge to it. Instead of listening we yell. Our neighbors hear the noise and come to see what is happening. They interpret what they hear and repeat it adding another and another and another layer of misunderstanding. A few repeats and someone gets frustrated and answers with a fist or a rock instead of words. My professor suggested that we not apologize for our country needing a resource and seeking it out even in the midst of violence (he referenced the Gulf of Tonkin which had just happened and accurately predicted the outcome) but that we realize what was happening and work to find better ways than war to share those resources because if we don't find that way the wars will continue. Most of them will be too small for us to see from our perspective here in the United States. Many will be confusing to us because we have so many resources that we seldom fall to the temptation to meddle because we do not really NEED that resource.
I suggest we share respect and keep looking for that way.
Richard,
I believe because I was given the gifts of faith and doubt and encouraged to use both to learn and grow. You appear to have both gifts as well and your use of them is spectactcular.
Sharon B - I never said you were an athiest. My labeling (sorry about that) you as a "(non) believer" just meant you were someone other than a believer in Christ.
You have on many occaisions mocked other Christians in this forum and that's why I included your name. But after reading the recent posts I'll be more than happy to take you off my list. With the likes of BS, William, Just dust, (and how did I ever forget RG?) I think my list is long enough to make the point to Diana. You are excused!
drew - You've mocked me and I've never tried to preach to you so you can't say he started it.
But thanks for the visual aids. You made the point of my post burst into life.
PS - Have a good weekend you dweeb! ;~)
Posted by KW on September 28, 2007 02:50 PMOh KW, never knew you were so easily bruised - not all us liberals have taken sensitivity training, you know. Am I the dweeb, or is Sharon? Anyhow, YOU have a good weekend you Jesus-freak (sarcasm).
Posted by drew on September 28, 2007 03:19 PMdrew - Don't worry about the sensitivity training. You get to that after completing the potty training.
As for the dweeb comment... Definitely you drew! I always try to show more respect for the ladies and I think I ruffled Sharons feathers once already today. This was your turn.
Posted by KW on September 28, 2007 03:31 PMKW, I have grown to love you. Goddess help me!!!
I have scales, not feathers. Hiss......
Posted by Sharon B. on September 28, 2007 03:44 PMKW:
By pointing out that you believing in your ghosts and magic is in effect legitimizing radical Islamic fundamentalism, I'm merely doing my part to fight the War on Terror.
Believing in ghosts and magic is the problem, it doesn't matter what ghosts or which magic.
Sorry the truth hurts you poor, persecuted Christian you... (violins).
Posted by Charles B. on September 28, 2007 09:54 PM"Believing in ghosts and magic is the problem, it doesn't matter what ghosts or which magic....Sorry the truth hurts you poor, persecuted Christian you."
Spoken as if from God -- this man obviously knows the one and only ABSOLUTE TRUTH in this world...all other thoughts or beliefs are therefore false.
Posted by on September 29, 2007 07:49 AMYo William: You define faith via Will Rogers while Mother Goose comes from Clarence Darrow and this one comes from me: Faith is belief that feeding your pregnant cat yarn will result in her babies wearing sweaters.
Posted by Richard Grimes, Deicide r22037@yahoo [Freethought Today is free at ffrf.org] on September 29, 2007 09:39 AMThanks to mommay: The check is in the mail.
Deicide Corner: “The idea of the sacred is quite simply one of the most conservative notions in any culture, because it seeks to turn other ideas -- uncertainty, progress, change -- into crimes.” -- Salman Rushdie
Posted by RG on September 29, 2007 09:46 AMPlease don't say pregnant cat. I have 8 cats, all the males are neutered but we ran out of money when it came to spaying the last 3 females. They are inside kitties so no kittens. But I like the concept. Maybe I'll buy a skein of blue and let bitty kitty out for a while. She is three years old and is 8 inches long and weighs 4 pounds. Looks like a kitten. I'll find a way for you to meet them.
Thanks. I'll give you my account number tor direct deposit.
Posted by momma y on September 29, 2007 11:11 AMPosted by on September 29, 2007 07:49 AM said, regarding my previous post:
Spoken as if from God -- this man obviously knows the one and only ABSOLUTE TRUTH in this world...all other thoughts or beliefs are therefore false.
I'm flattered that you think so highly of me, but I disagree. What I do is embrace the reality of my ignorance. I don't need to fill the void of my understanding with highly suspect mythology or supernatural nonsense that has no anchor in truth or emperical evidence to back it up.
I simply admitt that there are some things I don't know. This opens the door to higher understanding rather than blocking the door with utterly unprovable fantasies and religious dogma.
Posted by on September 29, 2007 12:06 PMThat was me.
Posted by Charles B on September 29, 2007 12:07 PMI am a card carrying "Lackacluest".
Please, in the future, do not label me.
I used to be a "Don`tknowist' but I switched faiths.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 29, 2007 04:29 PMI am a Platypussian, which is made up of Humanism, Skepticism, Jocularism, and Post-Modernism.
Posted by Bangalore Skank on September 29, 2007 04:55 PMBanga, have you been pussfied? John II invented the term the 'pussification of the liberal male".
Posted by Sharon B. on September 29, 2007 05:48 PMSharon, I have no doubt that he thinks so ;)
It worries him that "pussified" males will be a vulnerability that will lead to our doom.
I think a bit more pussification would be a good thing on the whole.
Btw Sharon, if you have never seen them before, I recommend you watch Adam Curtis’ “The Power of Nightmares” and “The Century of the Self”.
They are on google video.
Posted by Bangalore Skank on September 29, 2007 08:18 PMFor the Atheist
The FOOL hath said in his heart,
THERE IS NO GOD.
PSALMS 14-1
Do you drink milk Maria?
Posted by Bangalore Skank on September 30, 2007 05:39 AMBangalore Skank,
If you think this one has gone off the rails, you should look in on the one above in the line, dealing with the CSU editorial.
We "liberals" - some of us by name, yet - are now "responsible" for the shootings in the streets that have been in the news lately. Our "teaching(s)", that is; although the implication of personal involvement are strongly present as well.
The spokes-persons for Republicanism/"conservatism"/"god" are certainly running amok.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 30, 2007 09:15 AMOld Grouch, I see you hit the CSU site and saw what Uno wrote to me. What did Dan say, "it is a terrible thing to lose your mind?
Bango, thanks for the info I will look those up.
Interesting that Christians never quote the Psalms about how good it feels to bash the heads of the little ones, (unbelievers) on the rocks.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 30, 2007 01:36 PMMaria, for you dear Psalm 137:9.
Go to Landoverbaptist.com for more good stuff.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 30, 2007 05:39 PMATHEISM IS A NON-PROPHET ORGANIZATION.
IF MAN EVOLVED FROM MONKEYS AND APES, WHY DO WE STILL HAVE MONKEYS AND APES?
Posted by on September 30, 2007 06:31 PMMan did not evolve from monkeys and apes. We all evolved from a common ancestor. With this kind of misunderstanding of science, I can see why we are slipping. Unless it was a joke.?
Posted by Sharon B. on September 30, 2007 07:48 PM