Gen. Petraeus and MoveOn.org
The day before General David Petraeus gave his report updating Congress on the Iraq status, MoveOn.Org, the Democratic activist group, produced an advertisement in the N.Y. Times accusing the General “cooking the books”
In this environment the formulation of policy is no longer a contest between different views competing freely in the marketplace of ideas. Now the opposition must not be merely wrong; it must be reduced to the status of liar. Responsible Democrats, and there must still be a few somewhere, must disavow this tactic of mocking a man who has devoted his life to service of his country and clearly would not endanger the lives of his troops for some imagined political gain. If Democrats remain silent even during this time of war, then the political rhetoric becomes cut-throat game of winner-take-all. That fact will be noticed by our enemies around the world.
This letter has not been edited.
Republicans have already set precedent on disgraceful and dangerous tones for political debate in America. Attacking anyone's loyalty who opposes them, calling anyone against the President and the War a traitor, these are Republican tactics that they have been using for years. Thats why most of the Republican posters here use the same tactics, accusing anyone against the war of being un-American or hating America.
BTW MoveOn.Org is not affiliated with any political group. They oppose the War. Period.
How ironic. The "disgraceful dangerous tone of political rhetoric"
is the stock in trade of Karl Rove and all Republicans. Witness the countless smears against anyone who dares publicly disagree with the policies of the Bush administration.
Anyone remember the political ads in 02 comparing decorated vietnam war vetran Senator Max Clelland with Osama Bin Laden ?
Fact is there is ample evidence Petraus has cherry picked intelligence and changed statistics to favor the escalation in troop levels. Plenty of other sources without ties to the Bush White house report a different picture. Its General Petraus' choice to carry water for the White House. Bravo to move on. Matter of fact I think I'll send them a donation right now.
GOP so are you but what am I? Keep up the school yard partisan BS and lets see where we end up. "They did it so can we"
Define your term of affiliation. Sure the Dem party is not affiliated with MO.org but they sure affilate themselves with the Democratic party. Money talks BS walks
Posted by on September 19, 2007 02:18 PMDems are traitors.
Posted by on September 19, 2007 02:19 PMThe Republicans did the same crap in the 90's for Somalia and Bosnia. They used political ploys to discredit the actions there. People died and the Democrats screamed at the top of their lungs about doing what was right and supporting the troops. Guess what? The dems were correct to say that then just as the Republicans are correct to say it now. Both were and are wrong, but you lap up everything they feed you. Why the hell has the current Dem Congress not pulled the troops yet? To keep this political game up a bit longer to secure the 08 election. Why? Power and Money. Send your donations to your love. See what you get in return. As they say on here. Drink the KoolAid
Posted by on September 19, 2007 02:31 PMDon't worry though, the Reps will use this tactic during the '12 election. And the world goes round n round
Posted by on September 19, 2007 02:32 PMQuick look at the birdy. Over there. Yeah Yeah. That is the issue. Over there. No no don't look at the real issue (Iraq). Make sure to huff and puff about that "terrible" ad over there.
The war lovers are so desperate to distract the American public that they have to make an ad their distraction issue or maybe Sally Fields swear word. Yeah that's the ticket. Be all outraged about Sally Fields.
Yo boys the public isn't buying this secondary issue crap. The American people know full well that the occupation in Iraq is way past it's "sell by" date. George "AWOL/coward" Bush as usual chose to hide instead of trying to sell his baloney to the American people. It isn't about Petraeus or MoveOn folks. It is about George Bush and his vanity war. The public understands that even if the uber-patriotic war lovers don't. Scream! Cry foul. Cry big tears. Wet your pants over this ad. The public doesn't care because the majority know that Petraeus was carrying George Bush's water and it was a foul stinking bucket.
Posted by Wes on September 19, 2007 02:47 PMI suppose James was just as upset about the Swift Boaters during the last election. Maybe not
Posted by Just Sayin' on September 19, 2007 02:49 PMGawd this is strange. Yes, the headline of the MoveOn ad was of questionable taste (funny to think that it wouldn't be an issue if he had a different last name), but why on earth should Democratic politicians or candidates answer for something to which they are not connected? MoveOn is an independent organization, and not directly affiliated with the Democratic party.
The funny thing is, I'm amazed the Republicans have the balls to "go there," as the kids say. The examples of Republican candidates pointedly NOT distancing themselves from Swift Boat ads and Swift-Boat-type 527s are long, egregious, and only a year or two old. If Democratic candidates are expected to answer for everything MoveOn does, then it's only fair that Romney, Guiliani, McCain and Thompson have to answer for everytime Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Coulter, et. al. say something offensive and stupid, and y'all know damned well we wouldn't have to wait long for that to happen.
Posted by Jeff on September 19, 2007 02:53 PM2:19PM,
Cons are pu**ies.
Posted by J-Mac on September 19, 2007 02:54 PMNot sure what James thinks nor care, but was upset with the Swift boat ads. Not cool. Even hated Kerry but did not think it was right. What is your opinion on the current MoveOn ad Just Sayin'?
Wes what is your explanation or justification or excuse for the Dem party in control in Congress? Do you really see them beating down the doors to get our troops home?
Posted by on September 19, 2007 02:54 PMMoveon has said themselves that they have bought and paid for the Democrat party so it belongs to them. Have you been sleeping or what. Check the back issues of the far left New York Times and they will tell you also that the Democrats running for president have phone conversations every morning to get their talking points from moveon.
The people that attacked John Kerry were fellow military and were there and know what they are talking about a far cry from the fat cats behind desks and the know it all lefties that are just believing the left web sites. How many of you people cutting down Petreaus have even been to Iraq or any place to protect this country from harm? It's so easy to let other people die for your right to spout your hatred isn't it?
Posted by on September 19, 2007 03:07 PM3:07 I dont believe Kerry was a fat cat behind a desk, that honor goes to George Bush, tho cocaine snorting drunk cat might be a better word.
Kerry fought in nam and then was attacked by the swiftboat scum because he got more honors than them and he had the guts to speak out against the war. BTW, I fought in Nam, I think Kerry was a great American, I endorse his criticism of the war, and think george bush was a coward who hid here in the states. AND I love America!
Wes what is your explanation or justification or excuse for the Dem party in control in Congress? Do you really see them beating down the doors to get our troops home?
Posted by on September 19, 2007 02:54 PM
Obstructionist Republicans who filibuster and bluster on the issue. They don't even want our troops to get adequate rest and retraining.
Ultimately the AWOL/Coward is C&C and we know that his kids will never serve in combat so the reality is Mr. Veto will run out the clock on this stale win no hearts or minds strategy. We're arming both the Sunni and the Shiite for the ultimate ethnic cleansing and pretending that it is a winning plan.
Thanks anonymous. At least your willing to focus on the real issue not this phony charade. Does anyone really think that Petraeus is a "victim"? Oh gee our top military commander is hurt not by sticks or stones but an ad questioning whether he can give an unbiased review of his plans.
Posted by Wes on September 19, 2007 03:42 PMI never said that Kerry was a fat cat but all the people cutting Petraeus are and you my friend have not fought in the Iraq war. I know you people don't choose to think there is a difference. Were you on the swift boats to know for sure what Kerry was doing? Those men were, so whether you are a Viet Nam vet or not, if you weren't right there with him you can't know. I can't believe a real vet would call other vets who were there in Nam scum just because you don't agree with them. Like you are better then they are. I think not!
You are just a hate Bush person and have no personal first hand knowledge about any thing you say about George Bush. I could say the same about you. maybe you are the cocaine snorting drunk cat that you accuse Bush of being. I don't know that about you anymore then you do about him. I have no love lost for George Bush but he was elected by the majority of the people last time and I respect the office of the president so I refuse to bash it. You haters are really good Americans! I don't believe for a second you love America.
Posted by on September 19, 2007 03:43 PMJJ said with a straight face:
"This sets a disgraceful and dangerous tone for political debate in America."
hehehehehahahahaheheheh
Posted by Charles B on September 19, 2007 04:08 PMYou can thank two Berkeleyitie communists for the moveon.org name..."move on from the Clinton scandals" is its foundation. Hillary and moveon.org are joined at the hip.
Why did the liberal NY Times charge the Soros crowd a cut-rate for the "Betray Us" ad space? They held a fire sale and gave it away with a $100,000 discount. How liberal of them.
Posted by Hank on September 19, 2007 05:00 PMHank:
Have you ever said anything original?
I'll be waiting for it and give you a big happy-face sticker on your forehead when it finally happens...
Posted by Charles B on September 19, 2007 05:08 PMThe NYT most certainly did not sell the ad to MoveOn for a discounted price. In fact, they sold Giulianni a full page ad for the exact same price the VERY NEXT DAY. For the record, that was the day BEFORE Giulianni went public attacking the NYT for giving MoveOn a discount.
Posted by Hank's wrong on September 19, 2007 05:20 PMThe day this story broke, 9 American soldiers were killed in Iraq. This story received roughly 500 mentions on the big 4 news organizations (CNN, CNN Headline News, Fox News, and MSNBC). The death of the soldiers? 2 mentions. Is this story 250 times more important than our soldiers being killed?
The American Media says yes. What do you think?
Check out http://mediamatters.org/columns/200709180005 for the complete story.
Posted by Grog on September 19, 2007 05:27 PMGrog - You really oughtta get some new material. mediamatters??? Do you ever reference a sight that isn't lockstep with moveon? Soros must be your god.
Hanks wrong doesn't have the full story on the NYT ad either.
Rudy took out the ad to denounce moveon. He requested the same rate to see if this courtesy would be extended to the reps as well.
Another interesting twist is the possible campaign contribution violation. Although NYT claims the discount is standard for ads not guarunteed to run a certain day, it's interesting that the ad was extremely critical timewise to appear when it did. If it hadn't appeared on cue the effect would have been lost. If moveon wasn't guarunteed a time slot it would've been like flying standby to your wedding. You just wouldn't do it.
This was another reason Rudy took out the ad when he did. We'll have to wait and see if this becomes a contributions violation or not.
Posted by KW on September 19, 2007 06:15 PMI can't believe a real vet would call other vets who were there in Nam scum just because you don't agree with them. Like you are better then they are. I think not!
Posted by on September 19, 2007 03:43 PM
Yeah and those never served Republicans were so mature wearing purple heart band aids at the 2004 National Convention. Nice try 3:43 but you can't impugn the integrity of Democrats without also condemning the integrity of the Republican scum. Since we know you won't ever criticize the mothership all your other hooey about how vets don't criticize vets is just more hog wash.
Petraeus crossed the line by engaging in a scripted political dog and pony show and he got called on it. If you read the news at all you know that the majority of the country didn't buy into this PR propaganda campaign. Let's face it. The Bushies have crossed the line and politicized every government department they have had control over so why should the DOD be any different. Where is your condemnation of this blatant use of government for partisan manipulation.
As far as Bush haters well gee it is so funny to see the Clinton haters get all indignant about their leader being universally hated and it isn't just Democrats doofus. It is the whole world. January 20th, 2009 is going to be a worldwide celebration. Guaranteed.
Posted by on September 19, 2007 06:57 PM6:57
Would you mind getting your facts straight before you post? I'm giving the advice so that you don't look like an ignorant fool in the future.
Petraeus was confirmed by a DEMOCRATIC senate 89 to 0. He was mandated by a DEMOCRATIC senate to come back and testify before the committee in September. The last time I checked, the military must comply with directions from a senate committee whether it is run by republicans or DEMOCRATS.
The fact of the matter is, the DEMOCRATIC senate did not want to hear the testimony of Petraeus because they disagreed with it. A orchestrated campaign, highlighted by MoveOn.org set out to discredit him BEFORE HIS TESTIMONY because they wanted to throw chaff into the air and garble his words.
Next time you post, get your facts straight.
Posted by Nostra Damus on September 19, 2007 07:10 PMI know you people don't choose to think there is a difference. Were you on the swift boats to know for sure what Kerry was doing? Those men were, so whether you are a Viet Nam vet or not, if you weren't right there with him you can't know.
Posted by on September 19, 2007 03:43 PM
What makes this BS so odious is that when Kerry did release his military records it showed that the same men who Swiftboated him because of his anti-war stance were recommending his commendations.
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=John_Forbes_Kerry's_military_service
The Republican Party has become a bunch of garbage collectors who eat so much of their own BS that they should rename themselves the Mushroom Party.
"Quick go back to Nam. For God's sake talk about anything except Iraq. That Sally Field used a swear word. Oh the shame of it. Iraq? Never heard of it.
Look over there. Its a birdy."
I regarded myself a Democrat as a young man because I was a liberal. I still regard myself as a liberal but no longer as a Democrat.
The party of Truman, Kennedy and Scoop Jackson has become the party of Reid, Pelosi and Hillary.
JFK’s
“Let every nation know, whether it wishes us well or ill, that we shall pay any price, bear any burden, meet any hardship, support any friend, oppose any foe, in order to assure the survival and the success of liberty.
Has become Harry Reid’s statement
“I believe … that this war is lost, and this surge is not accomplishing anything, as is shown by the extreme violence in Iraq this week,”
which came months before the Petraeus (who had been approved by Congress a short time before) strategy was in even place.
The Democratic party of liberals has been hijacked by leftist and has become nothing more than the party of big government. What began as “we the people” for Democrats has devolved into rule by the elites.
A line office in the US Army who has dedicated his life to his country and risks his life every day in its service has been insulted with a full page add taken out in the nation’s leading newspaper by the nation's pre-eminent polictical action committee.
The response on this page here is –So what? The Republicans do the same thing.
This is what passes for a principled response from today’s Democrats.
I have called out for responsible Democrats and so far there has been no response.
Kennedy's
So, let us not be blind to our differences - but let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which those differences can be resolved.
Has become
hehehehehahahahaheheheh
Posted by: Charles B | September 19, 2007 04
My hope is that you’re still out there but just ignore this page.
Here's a final quote from JFK for the modern Democrat to conptemplate
"Our task now is not to fix the blame for the past, but to fix the course for the future."
It is time to stop palying partisan games and just get on with it.
James Jones I couldn't agree more right down to the "I regarded myself as a Democrat" but certainly no more. I don't even regard myself "Liberal" anymore because I believe no longer in left or right just right or wrong. I honestly think the aging hippies are the problem and I am that generation also but I was never a hippie, maybe that's the difference. I do not want a socialist country and that is what the left is aspiring for.
Posted by on September 19, 2007 09:36 PMThe letter writer is truly partisan. Seems to forget that the Repugs speared many Dems during the three previous elections and bet he didn't object to that.
However, the Pentagon issued a quarterly report shortly after the General gave his cherry picked report to Congress and their report contridicts his report. Amazing isn't it?
Now who are we to believe. Certainly not Bush and his minions.
Posted by A True American on September 19, 2007 09:57 PMI loved the "I once was a liberal" post by Jim Jones like that makes him an authority on being liberal. Too bad he turned in a war loving idiot who hates freedom of speech and the exercise of dissent. He is as big a whiner as Brian Stuckey. Boo hoo. "How can those people who have been right all along about this fiasco question little David's graphs? We can't let people who have been right on every issue from WMD to civil war question our man of the hour. What if they are right and things are less violent because there are no more mixed neighborhoods in Iraq?"
Posted by Wes on September 19, 2007 10:16 PMWes,
If you read my post with a little more care you will discover that I did not say "I once was a liberal." Actually, I told you that I still regard myself a liberal.
I did say "I was once a Democrat." Do you see the difference?
Since you didn't read the post carefully, you missed the point entirely.
Posted by James Jones on September 20, 2007 06:40 AMA True American
Your point is not clear.
Is it your point that the Repugs unfairly speared the Dems and that justifies unfairly spearing Petraeus?
Or is you point that Petraeus is a Bush minion who lied about the conditions in Iraq?
Perhaps you think both are true. If so, then the first point has no relevance to the second. So why make it?
Posted by James Jones on September 20, 2007 06:48 AMI once was a Republican, but then I sobbered up, saw the light, gave up my thirst for pedophilia, quit hanging out in airport men's roms and quit going to DC hookers and now I feel so much better.
Posted by Once on September 20, 2007 06:57 AMJames,
You are wasting your time wih Wes - he always has his party blinders on and is a lap dog to the Democratic party and their drivers (Moveon.ord, Daily KOS, Media matters, George Sorros, etc.)
He was only reading what he wanted to in your posting - not understanding or comprehending what it said.
If he could ever step back and see that it is partisan views such as his and those of the aformentioned organizations that are slowly destoying this, he may stop blabbering talking points from the far left.
Both parties are destroying this country with their "I know you are but what am I" childish rhetoric. It is up us as citizens to take it back using our power at the polls. Don't elect a republican or democrat - elect an american that will stand up to those radical fringe groups and move forward for change and not more of the same tired politics.
Posted by Jack Bauer on September 20, 2007 08:25 AM"Dems are traitors."
REALLY ?
Guess what I did on Labor Day? I flew an entire plane full (250) of our troops over to the middle east. I spent some time with them. Almost all were stop-lossed and on their way to a second or third deployment. many were against the occupation, but patriotic, and loyal to the job. Plenty of fellow Democrats in the bunch.
Guess we were all traitors who didn't support each other.
I . . . gasp! . . . don't know . . . ha ha ha . . . whether . . . to . . . gasp! . . . just die here . . . gasp! . . . laughing . . . hahahahahah . . . gasp! . . . or . . . O! God! . . . gasp! . . . James Jones . . . hahahahaha . . . tells us he . . . gasp! . . . regards himself . . . gasp! . . . as a LIBERAL. . . . . . .hahahahahahahahahah . . .CHOKE! . . . GASP! . . . .What next!?!?
Oh! What a Whiz of a Whiz he is!
Jimmy-boy! You'll be the death of us yet!
James Jones a LIBERAL! That's priceless!
Posted by Old Grouch on September 20, 2007 08:40 AMJack,
We can but try.
Posted by James Jones on September 20, 2007 09:01 AMTraitor Dem
You didn't tell us what you thought of the ad.
Posted by James Jones on September 20, 2007 09:03 AMGrouch,
I am a liberal. You are a leftist.
I seek the freedom of the individual and respect the opinions of others.
You seek security offered by big government and are intolerant of opposing views.
I think this page is valuable for free discouse on the topics of the day.
You think this page is valuable because it gives you the opportunity to mock and jeer from the shadows.
I think writing audio-aids into a post is silly.
You think ... never mind, your posts don't require thought.
We're not much alike are we? So obviously only one of us can be a liberal.
The evidence is pretty clear don't you think?
Posted by James Jones on September 20, 2007 09:12 AMJim
I doubt you've had a progressive thought in your entire life. Pharisees like you are always blood thirsty reactionaries. Death and destruction are not liberal objectives. Franklin Roosevelt said that conservatives are animals on two legs who never learned to walk forward.
It is funny you are so filled with Fox outrage about this ad and assume that it was an attack on Petraeus when all they did was ask the question: "Are you going to be straight with the American people about the situation in Iraq." The fact that Petraeus proclaimed that violence was down due entirely to The Surge without recognizing the number of people who had to become refugees and the extent of ethnic cleansing that has taken place is a pretty good indication what his answer was. Two million people displaced either internally or externally. No more mixed neighborhoods. We're arming both sides for the next blood bath but hey other than that things are going swimmingly.
Aren't faux-liberals all pro-business? "Businesses can do whatever they want without government interference". If that is the faux-liberal credo then what is the problem with the Times selling ad space to whoever they want? Is it a free market or not?
James and Brian crying about that meanie corporation the New York Times
http://linnealenkus.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/twins-photography-linnea-lenkus-com.jpg
I just love it when the liberal lefts gets so uptight about the truth that doesnt fit their dream of what it should be.
please bring up more of Fox news and Rush as I am sure both of those raise your blood pressure.
the best joke of the day is moveon and the dums arent connected. what is the next one, that hillary and bill really do spend a lot of time together and she trusts him?
Wes,
So progressive thought is opposed to bloodthirst reactionaries bent on death and destruction. Actually that sort of thing has a much smaller constituency then you imagine.
Progressives must also think that Petraeus was lying about the condtions in Iraq. He put the men and women who serve under him at risk to curry favor with the boss. That about it?
Now as to the NY Times: Selling an ad to MoveOn.org to slime a line officer in the middle of a battle is a disgusting thing to do. It is also their right to be disgusting.
I don't approve and say so. That is my right.
I would not and have not called for hindering their ability to be disgusting in any way. Neither has anyone else.
You hope to see that because it would confirm your bigotry. Since you haven't, you falsley atribute it to me and others. But then that's what makes it bogotry.
I believe in and practice tolerance. Tolerance, Wes, is when you put up with something you disapprove of. That is a concept with which you are obvioulsy unfamiliar. But then that's what makes it leftism.
Posted by James Jones on September 20, 2007 10:35 AMOh! Yes! Indeed! Jimmy-boy
The evidence of your postings for months is clear as a bell.
You're just about as much a "liberal" as your posting confreres, "AnAmerican", "John2", and the like.
But, do keep on keeping on, Jimmy-boy. Who knows? Maybe, someday - if you work real hard at it - you might even re-invent yourself as being someone slightly believable. But that's a stretch, at best.
James Jones a "LIBERAL". That's the best belly laugh yet!
Posted by Old Grouch on September 20, 2007 10:39 AMHere we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush;
Here we go round the mulberry bush, all the rest of this posting.
James Jones says this; but he doesn’t say that. Or was it that, not this?
He doesn’t remember. But you must be wrong.
He meant it was neither. You must go along,
Or, “You can't understand me”, he says with a hiss.
Oh! Left is right; and upwards is down. Or is it turn-about?
And all of them do go round and round;
Spinning and twirling all over the ground;
And through the air too, you may have no doubt.
Don’t bother with logic in answer to him. He knows none from the start.
Context means nothing when he doth pronounce
Judgments on meaning, and then doth denounce
Any, and all, who would from HIS words depart.
He's always right. He's never wrong. No matter what YOU say.
He always make sense, and takes great offense
At any suggestion He's the slightest bit dense,
HIS writings trump yours, and all the rest, in every possible way.
Here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush;
Here we go round the mulberry bush; JAMES JONES is doing the posting.
And, TODAY, he is proclaiming himself to be a LIBERAL, yet. Stay tuned for the next episode in the continuous saga of "The Re-invention of Our Jimmy-boy Jones".
Yes! Yes! On behalf of all those who want anyone but a Republican to control the White House and Congress in Nov. 2008, PLEASE keep talking about this non-story story...
MoveOn.org is getting far more mileage on this than even they likely expected, thanks to the heavy lifting done by the now-hyper-sensitive 'conservatives'.
If GOP wants to stand a chance in November 2008, do and say anything you can to switch the discussion *away* from Iraq, ASAP.
Immigration is the winner for you...with the spectre of brown-skinned people taking all that is good away from America (and suburbia, etc), you just need to conjure some trivial (or complete false) connection between the leading Democratic candidate and illegal (and legal) Mexican/S.American immigrants, and stick with that message through Election day. That's the only chance you have left.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 11:22 AMI have heard many of the military say that if a Dem gets elected they are getting out of the service. I sure do hope the first people they won't protect from the terrorists are Wes and Old Grouch because they certainly do not deserve to be protected from our military as much as they hate them.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 11:52 AMOh, Jimmy-boy: If you're still around, that is.
Is 11:52 AM anonymous's posting what you hold to be "liberal"?
It certainly echoes your own hyperbolic imagination about what others "feel". And you're the one who has told us all - several times in your postings - that one doesn't need to rely on anything as trivial as reality; insisting that using one's (especially YOUR own) IMAGINATION is more important than trivia such as dictionary definitions, and evidence or facts when presenting an argument.
Sure appears to be YOUR kind of "liberal" to me.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 20, 2007 12:33 PMI have heard many of the military say that if a Dem gets elected they are getting out of the service.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 11:52 AM
With the stop-loss provisions that the Bush Administration has slapped on our military they won't have a chance to get out of the service so I'm in good shape regardless of who wins.
Too bad 11:52 doesn't want to talk about the ethnic cleansing that has occurred in Iraq over the last two years and how it will affect any attempts at reconciliation between these sects. Better to play the anti-military card and pretend that if those damn lefties just quit questioning what we're doing over there, all the Iraqi people will come together in one big kumbaya dance. Yeah right and everyone is going to get a pony at Christmas. I seriously doubt that those who used electric drills to torture and kill their victims are suddenly going to have a change of heart because of "The Surge" and want to be in a national multi-ethnic society. Are you people really that stupid that you think the last two years can be suddenly forgotten? This is a winner take all situation and each side is even more entrenched in their hatreds than conservatives are towards liberals. Conservatives are first class haters but they are pikers compared to Sunni and Shia.
Posted by Wes on September 20, 2007 01:14 PMOh My Gawd (Paris speak), someone transmuted a name? Someone implied he was a traitor, but did not SAY IT. Wow, that is disgusting.
JJ, where was your fake outrage at "Hidalbeast"? How about "Piglosi?
11:52, folks can`t just "get out of the military".
The good General isn`t the only one who knows what is going on in Iraq.
That question you asked, did he lie and put the troops in danger? Substitute the name Powell, and ask the same thing.
Of course Powell spoke before the war, but the end result is the same.
Did the Pentagon agree with his assessment?
Posted by Sharon B. on September 20, 2007 01:27 PMMoveon.org was created by billionaire George Soros to try and stop the impeachment hearings and support the then President Clinton.We all remember him?
The organization has morphed into a anti-Bush,anti-war,pro-illegal alien,pro- free speech except if you disagree with them,pro-terrorists,anti-American smear and blackmail website devoted to filling the troughs to feed the Democratic Party their bullshit.
Once you feed from the Moveon.org troughs,you are bought and paid for,just like a whore,except you can't get paid and walk away,you are their slave and better do what you are told.
I thought it was illegal to traffic in human slavery but Moveon.org has it down to a fine art.
Anyone who doesn't denounce this disgusting ad against a true American is an idiot.
The Democrats are whores working for Moveon.org and website organizations like Thedailykos.Expensive whores ,but whores none the less.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 20, 2007 01:57 PMCigaAmen,
Thank you so much for those kind compliments concerning Democrats. I do not feel it necessary to reply with characterizations of those who follow such as Fox News, Limbaugh, O'Reilly, et.al.; since they certainly speak for themselves - as you do.
Your words concerning criticism of the General echo those of Mr. James Jones, who - today anyway, at least up to a few postings ago - is depicting himself as a "liberal". The designation of "liberal" is one that is usually used by Mr. Jones, and others with his views, as an epithet, or pejoritave, directed at those same Democrats you have called by another name.
Have you, then, adopted the position of being a "liberal" who is neither a Democrat nor a "whore"? From all previous postings, this would seem to create a dichotomy, not to mention a massive credibility gap relative to your whole position and argument.
Perhaps you would be so kind as to resolve this apparent inherent self-contradiciton in terms, since Mr. Jones appears either unwilling - or much more likely, totally unable - to so do himeslf.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 20, 2007 02:33 PMNot a liberal,not a Democrat,not a whore,not a Republican,not an Indepentent,not a Libertarian,not left-wing,not right-wing, I am an American who loves her country and all it can be if the political establishment can stop working for themselves and start working for the "Citizens " of the United States of America.
That may be naive,but for my children's sake I have to keep hope that this country will right the wrongs and create a better future for my children.
P.S. I've never listened to Rush Limbaugh so I have no idea what he is about,besides,Vicoden.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 20, 2007 02:45 PMOld Grouch is a dick.
Posted by on September 20, 2007 03:14 PMOld Grouch,
You are a glass house living, rock throwing idiot.
Is it not ironic that a few days ago you described yourself as a "strict constitutionalist"?
Now THAT was funny.
z
Posted by on September 20, 2007 03:52 PMOld Grouch,
You are a glass house living, rock throwing idiot.
Is it not ironic that a few days ago you described yourself as a "strict constitutionalist"?
Now THAT was funny.
z
Posted by on September 20, 2007 03:52 PMShout out to Old Crotch, Sharon and Charles B, Wes, A True American and all you other left wingers.
Why is it that only democrats (and 1 independant) voted against todays Cornyn Amendment 2934, it reads:
To express the sense of the Senate that General David H. Petraeus, Commanding General, Multi-National Force-Iraq, deserves the full support of the Senate and strongly condemn personal attacks on the honor and integrity of General Petraeus and all members of the United States Armed Forces"
Here is the list of nays:
Akaka (D-HI)
Bingaman (D-NM)
Boxer (D-CA)
Brown (D-OH)
Byrd (D-WV)
Clinton (D-NY)
Dodd (D-CT)
Durbin (D-IL)
Feingold (D-WI)
Harkin (D-IA)
Inouye (D-HI)
Kennedy (D-MA)
Kerry (D-MA)
Lautenberg (D-NJ)
Levin (D-MI)
Menendez (D-NJ)
Murray (D-WA)
Reed (D-RI)
Reid (D-NV)
Rockefeller (D-WV)
Sanders (I-VT)
Schumer (D-NY)
Stabenow (D-MI)
Whitehouse (D-RI)
Wyden (D-OR)
Do you think it has anything to do with the funding provided to 7 of whom are running in 2008 from the likes of Moveon.org and the threat to the others in 10, 12?
I suppose you all will be on the phone to senator Salazars' office to deride him for voting for this - thing is he is not up for election next year so he could afford to vote for it this time.
Even the likes of Leahy & Feinstein voted for this - wait -let me check if they are running for re-election in 2008. Just as I thought -NO.
This clearly shows who the whores to special interest are
Posted by on September 20, 2007 04:21 PMZ,
You mis-quote, as usual. But, since deliberate and intentional mis-quotation, and outright and flagrant imputation of your own imaginary feelings and reactions as being those of others, is your basic method of presentation, that is not at all surprising.
I have always regarded my position as being that of a Constitutional Conservative; and have stated that many times. That you are not able to comprehend the meaning of that which is posted is not my problem.
Insofar as the General's report be concerned: It would appear that everyone would either prefer to ignore, or just doesn't want to know, the simple fact that even 4 Star Generals have to follow orders.
One may - on occasion - PRIVATELY, AND WITH ALL DUE RESPTECT, offer the suggestion that the Report he is commanded to give might not be the one that contains all the facts, or even has a basic hint of truth in it. Few, if any, ever do - Colin Powell is just about the only exception that comes to mind - but, in the end, that's beside the point.
When the Commander in Chief says: "Go out and give THIS REPORT", the General has 2 options.
1. He can snap to attention; say, "Yes sir!"; salute properly; do an about face; and go out and GIVE THIS REPORT.
2. He can refuse; and then become - almost immediately - a "General, Retired".
Petraeus is still an Active Duty 4 Star General.
You figure it out.
Why should I be concerned about that?
And, more to the point, why are all you folks so concerned?
Questioning the contents of the report, in any way whatsoever, IS NOT questioning the honor, or the integrity, of the man who followed the orders to present it.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 20, 2007 07:27 PMAnon with link. The amendment was a corny (cornyn) attempt at gotcha.
No one should be forced to agree with this piece of dreck. And adding "All the members of the Armed Forces" on with the General is disgusting.
Don`t you republics ever get tired of using the troops for your own purposes?
The only special interest here, is the interest not to be USED by hack politicians.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 20, 2007 07:54 PMGrouch,
You are not a liberal. Neither is Hillary, Obama, Pelosi, Ted Kennedy, Harry Reid or any others leaders of the Democratic Party. Joe Lieberman is a liberal but he was forced out as an apostate.
You are leftists. You seek to inhibit individual liberty be empowering the authority of the government. You probably like to thing of yourself as a liberal because it sounds more noble then your acutal philososphy but you are actually just bastardizing language to put up a facade over your materialistic agenda.
I have great respect for liberals ideals. I have no respect for leftism. Your charge that I have insulted liberals is completely false.
The problem is that the Democratic Party, once the party of liberals, has been hijacked by leftists.
And in leftism you are, as I have said, pitch-perfect.
Sharon B,
Soldiers are different from politicians. Politicians are advocates. Generals are professionals.
Where the Politician will try to make some case to advance an agenda, the General will tell you what he thinks.
It is important to the national welfare that we keep that distinction bright.
People will say all sorts of things about Bush or Pelosi and that's fair enough. But to slime the honor of man in the serivce of his country, who risks his life every day in its defense and command thousands of young Americans doing exactly the same thing is disgusting.
The Democrats running to be Commander in Chief, with the exception of Joe Biden, have failed to condemn this ad. That's because their fear of MoveOn.org and what it might do to their candidacy is greater than their respect for the soldiers they seek to lead.
That one of our two great parties would be reduced to this level is a sad state of affairs.
Posted by James Jones on September 20, 2007 09:53 PM04:21,Nice list of treasonist.
Posted by Keith on September 20, 2007 09:56 PMMany people don't know that General Patraeus is one of the people that spoke out against Rumsfeld and the way he was handling the troops and the war.
What happened to him for bravely speaking out against Rumsfeld?
He was pulled from Iraq and sent to a military base in Levenworth Kansas.
When the President finally realized,( maybe a little to late ) that Rumsfeld was not doing a very good job,he called on General Patraeus to lead our troops.Why? Because he is no lackey. He is a man of honor and integrity.He spoke out because he knew the path that Rumsfeld had taken our troops was not working.
General Petraeus put his career on the line to right the wrongs in Iraq.Thankfully President Bush chose someone that was honestly standing up against the establishment and he has since made progress in Iraq.
The Democrats don't want to hear anything good coming out of Iraq. They are rooting for the terrorists to win so they can get elected. They don't care about our troops. They care about staying in power and claiming the ultimate prize, The White House.
Watching the left and the Democrats call this honorable man a liar is sickening.
He has more honor and integrity that all of Congress,The Senate and the White House put together.
How much more shame are the Democrats going to bring on our country?
Posted by on September 21, 2007 09:52 AMMoveOn.org didn't do anything different than sean hannity, rush limbaugh, ann coulter, etc do everyday. They attack and spread lies, accuse anyone who isnt a Republican as being a traitor. I'd like to see Congress pass a reslution against their disgusting mouths too. Petraus does not deserve any different treatment than any other American citizen.
The only thing good that will ever come out of Iraq, will be our soldiers when we bring them home. Democrats want them home alive, Republicans want them home in body bags
Posted by Same As it ever was on September 21, 2007 10:41 AM9.52
It's good that you brought that infomations forward. But it is unforunate that you have to make the case by resurrecting the man from the object he has been reduced to.
That is what happens when Generals, or anyone else, is assumed to be a liar until proven innocent.
The leftists here have accused Petraeus of being a lying weasel and it does not occur to then that they ought to offer up some evidence.
They make this disgusting charge and then, as it were, move on.
Posted by James Jones on September 21, 2007 10:50 AMSame as it ever was
So you think the Times ad was a lie but ar untroubeled because of all the other lies that are told -is that it?
You would like to see Congress to control the conversation on talk radio. How exactly would that work?
I mean, let's say Congress banned Limbaugh and he set up his own facilities and kept broadcasting in defiance of the order. Do you think Limbaugh should be imprisoned?
Posted by James Jones on September 21, 2007 11:03 AMJame Jones: Only trading tit for tat. If MoveOn.orgs ad was slanderless, it was no more slander than what Hannity, Limbaigh and Coulter do daily to Democrats. Calling them traitors. In Coulters case usually stooping even lower and mocking a man's dead child. Congress passed a 'resloution' saying they disapprogved of the ad. Bush said it was atrocious treatment. Id like to see a similar resolution stating limbaugh, hannity and coulter are equally atrocious. No jail time, nothing worse than what was done to MoveOn.org . One differencein this event: The democrats JOINED in on the resolution and it passed. Something that the Repukes never do when a Democrat bill is proposed. The wonders of bi-partisanship. (BTW I think that also kills the idea that MoveOn is a Democrat organization).
Posted by Same as it ever was on September 21, 2007 11:48 AMSame as it ever was
Right- your principle is that slandering Petreaus is justified by previous slanders aimed at Democrats. That's fine - I'm just interested in clarity.
I don't know what you mean about "killing the idea that Moveon is a Democrat organization."
You might have noticed that they pretty much seem to come down on the Democrat side of the aisle in their positions.
Or do you think that's not the case?
Posted by James Jones on September 21, 2007 11:58 AMAh! Jones!
Now you're a "liberal" - as you proclaim yourself to be - who is worrying about what MIGHT HAPPEN to Rush Limbaugh, You are a witling and a dolt.
Leopards don't change their spots. And you can't even begin to hide the fact that you are nothing more than a Right-wingnut parrot, who has no more claim to being a liberal than might Karl Rove.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 21, 2007 12:05 PMJamesJones: My point is that slandering Petraeus is no worse a crime than slandering a Presidental candidate or their family, something that Bush & the Republicans are very effective at. They shouldnt scream 'fowl' when the tables are turned and a n organization is using their tactics
MoveOn.org opposes the war and wants it ended. period. that is their only stand and only point of existence. 70% of the US opposes the war and wants it ended. The Democrats opose the war and want it ended. If your logic means that Move.On must be part of the Democrats because they agree on a point, then it would hold that 70% of the US were Democrats ( Id prefer 70% Independents but that woudl be a good start). If that were true we wouldnt have a screwed up Congress that cant pass any legislation because the more than 30% Repubs vote in a block, put 'holds' on bills, and basically 'take up space'.
Grouch,
I am not a liberal. I am a conservative.
You are not a liberal. You are a leftist.
I adhere to some liberal principles. If you have any liberal principles, you have not espoused them here to my knowledge.
Classic liberalism is in fact a large part of what we want to conserve.
For leftists, like you, to identify yourselves as liberals is a bastardization of language.
Same as it ever was
My point is that Generals are different from Politicians. I described this to Sharon B at some length at 9.53.
I wouldn't describe MoveOn as "part of the Democrats." I think they consistently advocate Democratic postions and the Democratic presidential candidates, excepting Biden, are afraid of their influence.
Posted by James Jones on September 21, 2007 02:05 PMThe point was that none of the right wing crazies who are bitching about this had a problem with the false info used to "Swift Boat " Kerry, or the way The right wingers including Saxby Chambliss used false hooods about Max Cleland. Therefore, they should just STFU and figure that what goes aroung comes around.
Posted by A True American on September 21, 2007 05:53 PMAnyone can publish anything they can pay for. Then they get the hits. They are grown ups, I think all these people and Moveon.org can stand the heat.
I actually think Ann Coulter is funny as hell. But I know she is trying to be smart.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 21, 2007 08:15 PMA True American,
So your principle is that lies about Kerry and Cleland justify lies about Petraues, is that true.
Posted by James Jones on September 22, 2007 06:53 AMJimmy Jones,
Redefining yourself again, huh!
More fun than all the Who-in-the-hell-what-in-the-hell-are-we-opalians, with their little-bit-of-this-little-bit-of-that-and-something-of-everything-for-anyone-and-not-much-of-anything-for-everyone approach to religion.
Ah! Maybe that's where YOU have YOUR pulpit!
You do remind me so much of that famous quotation from Erasmus: "What is truth?", said jesting Pilate; but he did not stay for the answer".
Is it, "Pontius" Jones now, eh?
Posted by Old Grouch on September 22, 2007 07:32 AMGrouch,
I have no need to redefine myself. You might however give it some thought.
Your condition is quite clear both in this thread and earlier with Dr. Kennedy.
You did not intend to characterize Petraeus a liar. You did so, unwittingly, because you did not read his testimony before passing judgement. Your reflexive distate for anything Bush is activated and the venom flows.
You did not intend to insult Dr. Kennedy on his deatt. You did so because you did not pause to reflect on the consequences of your post. Your reflexive contempt for religion and the religious is activated and so the insults flow.
Later you come to understand the reality of the postion you have put yourself in but do not have the integrity to simply say you made a mistake.
So then comes time for the Grouch Default Postion:
Insult and MoveOn.
Posted by James Jones on September 22, 2007 08:41 AMJonesy,
Whether or not I previously read something has nothing to do with what I wrote.
That's YOUR imagination at work. YOUR idea of what "ought to be". YOUR way of setting up endless straw-men, and then knocking them down as if they had meaning other than YOUR fantasy gives them at the time.
YOU took umbrage at what I wrote about the lasting influence of either Pavarotti or Kennedy. I spoke of "Preachers", with no direct reference to Kennedy at all.
YOU call it "insulting Kennedy". That's YOUR opinion. And, as with so much else that YOU imagine as being there; that opinion of YOURS is noted.
YOU yourself, however - constantly, and quite knowingly, intentionally, and deliberately - insult others, when YOU tell them what they "are", or are "supposed to be".
I will take one instance, from a posting in this line.
Direct quote from James Jones: Posted on this line Sept.20, @ 09: 41 PM
"You seek to inhibit individual liberty by empowering the authority of the government."
This is just ONE of the more egregiously assinine assertions YOU state as being something I think, propose, or post. At root it is intended to be insulting, since it is directed personally.
YOU make this kind of assinine assertion about others, and their positions, all the time.
Indeed, on another line of postings, you referred to Buddhists, Taoists, and a good many other religions, and religious people, as "atheists"; together with several references to people who express themselves as being religious in a form YOU don't seem to be able to undrstand as being "atheist" as well.
When it was called to YOUR attention that such a remark was very insulting to anyone of a religious faith other than that YOU were claiming to be acceptable, YOUR response was along the lines of not needing to use dictionary definitions when making YOUR statements, insulting or not.
For my part, I am so familiar with your nonsense that I do not bother to feel insult. Rather, I find it, and YOU, hilarioulsy funny; all wrapped up as YOU are in YOUR own little imagination. Which imagination is always so evident as to be the standard from which anyone on the website can measure - and does measure - the worth of YOUR statements. Especially those statements YOU make concerning what others supposedly "are", "ought to be", "have said", or "ought to respond" in YOUR opinion.
If there be any real "default position", involved here, Jonesy, it is YOURS. And, you are certainly welcome to it.
Grouch,
Time for a reality check
"Whether or not I previously read something has nothing to do with what I wrote."
Well you posted:
I have no opinion, whatsoever, concerning General Petraeus personally. And, I have never expressed one.
I have presented a scenario concerning alternatives in a particular situation. Only YOU imagine that it is a matter of personality.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 21, 2007 01:02 PM
After posting
When the Commander in Chief says: "Go out and give THIS REPORT", the General has 2 options.
1. He can snap to attention; say, "Yes sir!"; salute properly; do an about face; and go out and GIVE THIS REPORT.
2. He can refuse; and then become - almost immediately - a "General, Retired".
Petraeus is still an Active Duty 4 Star General.
You figure it out.
Posted by: Old Grouch | September 20, 2007 07:27 PM
And the world was bright until I showed up with:
General Pretaeus began his testimony with this statement:
"At the outset, I would like to note that this is my testimony. Although I have briefed my assessment and recommendations to my chain of command, I wrote this testimony myself. It has not been cleared by, nor shared with, anyone in the Pentagon, the White House, or the Congress."
Generals do things for a reason. General Petraeus made this statement to make it impossible to charge him with "following orders" without also accusing him of being a liar.
The General went out of his way and made it abundantly clear that his report is an objective assessment of his evaluation.
When you charge with giving a false report to keep his job, you also accuse him of being a liar.
There's just no getting around that one Grouch.
Posted by James Jones on September 21, 2007 01:41 PM
Which you have ignored. But, it's not too late. How did you,after reading that statment, come to conclude that the General was following orders but did not lie?
So spitting on the casket as it is lowered into the grave and impugning the integrity of military officers serving in the defence of the nation is not personally insulting.
But it is personally insulting to assert that you would empower the government at the expense of liberty.
Your concocted world is becoming increasingly bizzare. At some point it becomes unsupportable.
James Jones,
The only "conclusion" contained there is YOUR "conclusion" that something must be there that is not there at all.
When I posted, I presented alternatives to the emotional diatribes concerning what YOU - and others - insist was/is "sliming Petreaus".
YOU find even the alternatives to fall into what YOUR imagination conceives is that same "fault". And, because YOU think that way, I am supposed to, somehow, have to respond to YOUR straw-man about what was read, as YOU set that up as an ex post facto condition for my first posting.
Now Jimmy-boy, the same thing goes for YOUR hyperbolic imagination about "spitting of the casket as it is lowered into the grave." That's YOUR accusation. Which, again, is nothing more than YOUR imagination. And, no matter how many times you repeat it, is NOT what I have done.
As to your remarks about "empower the government at the expense of liberty": Again, that is YOUR imagination at work. Anyone who actually reads what I write, and what I have written, will agree that that is so egregiously assinine an accusation to make, that it is hilariously funny. So why should I be insulted by it? Were you to make such an idiotic accusation of others, it might, perhaps, be insulting to them. i don't know. Nor do I particularly care. They might even take you seriously.
YOU keep on asserting that because YOU say that someone "did", "said", or whatever, that person is necessarily obligated to take YOUR assertion seriously. That is YOUR imagination, and YOUR fantasy.
And, since I don't choose to bother myself all that much with YOUR increasing decompensation, and YOUR continual emphasis on everyone else having to live in YOUR fantasy, all you are doing is showing everyone else just how much it is a matter of YOUR "concocted world" that YOU are making the - otherwise totally non-existent - "issues".
It's called, "Projection", Jonesy.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 22, 2007 03:00 PM