How Coloradans worship
Apparently on
But unless either side has ripped certain pages from the Bible, all we have to do is go back to the story of Noah and the ark and the flood to determine which viewpoint is, in fact, truthful.
In the days of Noah, what was the prevalent world-view? It apparently was a world wherein mankind and the culture of mankind, even God-believers, thought that they could define sin. There was probably thieves, adulterers, liars, homosexuals, pro-choicers, and political and religious leaders — all of whom thought that they, individually or collectively, could define what is and is not sin, and live their lives and teach others accordingly. In fact, I’ll even acknowledge the probable existence of gay priests and pro-gay political candidates living in the days of Noah, who paid hommage to God on one hand while defining what was not sin on the other hand.
But what happened to them? Where did they go?
As everyone who knows and understands story knows, God defines what sin is, not the culture.
And that leads to an interesting question. Since both sides use the same Bible, and Jesus stated that the End Times would be just as the days of Noah, should we — and today’s gay priests and today’s pro-gay political candidates — not expect the same outcome in the future?
This letter has not been edited.
What a bunch of BS. You couldn't put all the animals in the world on an Air Craft Carrier let alone an ark. Writer is free to believe in fairy tales but they aren't to be used in an argument. Most of the world does not believe in the buy-bull.
Posted by Sectarian Sam on September 17, 2007 02:02 PMDear Robert,
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's law. I have learned a great deal from your posts, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend homosexuality, for example, I will simply remind him or her that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other laws in Leviticus and Exodus and how to best follow them. To wit:
When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Leviticus 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. How should I deal with this?
I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as stated in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Leviticus 15:19-24). The problem is, how can I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
Leviticus 25:44 states that I may buy slaves from the nations that are around us. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Canadians, but not Mexicans. Can you clarify?
I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
A friend of mine says that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Leviticus 10:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Leviticus 20:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.
Posted by All religion is a mental illness on September 17, 2007 03:13 PMBeam me up Scotty! Now I KNOW there's no intelligent life on THIS planet!
Posted by Old Grouch on September 17, 2007 04:09 PMPro-choice in Noah's day? This wasn`t even an issue then.
He asks what happened to all the people, I ask, what happened to all the birds.?
Anyone know of a robin that can fly for 40days, or the 150 days altogether that the World was flooded?
Posted by Sharon B. on September 17, 2007 04:35 PMPlease excuse the extensive quoting but "All religion is a mental illness's questions need to be read with my answers.
a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Depends on what seasonings and woods you used. Now mesquite is always allowed in Colorado, but hickory and apple have seasonal limitations. If you live in an apartment or other attached community, smiting is unnecessary as other neighbors are probably upset by their constant whining. In a suburban setting remind them of the Make My Day Law..
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
Actually the price depends on the market. If you do it on E-BAY allow for the shipping charges although you can negotiate the packaging. Local markets are chancey as most won't buy today's kids. Girls today are problematical because few of them are willing to be docile and meek. Even fewer are capable of commanding any price worth the trouble. Best solution is to cut her allowance.
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
This requires a bit of stealth. Arrange to visit her home or apartment. If tampons or pads are in the front of the bathroom closet, suspect uncleanliness. Count the number of items in each package and keep track. As long as the number stays the same you're OK. Unless you are trying to score on a first date you should be able to tell. Another clue is if they wear darker skirts or pants or look at the chair seats when they stand up. If they get really upset when you ask they are probably off-limits.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
Your friend has it backwards. You may own Canadians not Mexicans. The scripture clearly states a NEIGHBORING nation. Canada is a neighbor who trades with us and obeys our immigration laws. Mexico sends its people to invade and disrupt our country. You might be able to get around this by declaring Mexicans captured enemy soldiers but use caution. Don't leave any ID where they might see it.
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
You need not actually smite him. Just work on your landscaping and the outside appeaarance of your home. Buy an expensive car and park it in the driveway. Have pricey people attend frequent parties. In order to match you he will work even harder and give himself a coronary.
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
Your friend is right. Eating shellfish is a food provision which limits it to the kitchen and dining room. Homosexuality is in the bedroom. Since the shellfish is subject to a location division it will be a lessor abhomination. Don't even think of eating shellfish in the bedroom with a homosexual. The level of abhomination would be too high to calculate. Besides, homosexuals are known to be students of food and other arts and you might be embarrased by your ignorance.
g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
Now here we have a problem. The text clearly states sight so the best solution would be to close your eyes and be careful..altar fires ya know. But, since wearing the reading glasses corrects the defect, you could wear them. You might try contact lenses too. Most congregations would not be upset if you merely backed up to the altar as approach assumes forward motion. Again watch out for those flames.
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
Find pictues of them as teenagers. Have them printed as 8x10's and paste them up all around their children's high schools. Be sure to put the names on them and attribute the posting to the parents. The kids will complain so much those men will wish they were dead or, at least, deaf. Make sure pictures are also posted in the lawbreaker's office.
i) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
You can play football with or without gloves but tell the coach you aren't going to pick up any fumbles. The NFL will probably not permit you to wear the gloves so coat your entire body with olive oil and lanolin. Don't try out for wide receiver or quarterback.
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
These violations need to be addressed but why put the whole burden on you? Open up the irrigation canals and flood his fields. When he tries to clean it up, call the EPA and tell them he is destroying a wetland. Take pictures of your aunt and send them to the local ladies' society. Tell them you plan on using the pictures in a national magazine article about local women. The women will go straight to cutting her apart with their scorn and embarrassment. No stones needed. Don't burn the house, just replace the fornicators' sunscreen with tanning oil and let Global Warming do the job.
Hope these suggestions help.
(no way to spell check this I apologize for any errors.)
Posted by momma y on September 17, 2007 05:19 PMFaith is a gift.
A believer who has accepted this gift has a tremendous obligation. You must live your faith. For Christians, as I read it, it means to treat all with respect. To live your life in a manner that matches your beliefs. Disagreements with others are to be resolved by the knowledge that each of us is bound to walk the path beneath our feet. None of us is fit to judge another in this matter. Some are fit to instruct, but must confine their teaching to only those who accept their authority as the teacher. The best way to express this is the phrase my non-Christian husband and I have: many paths, same mountain. Some may not believe they are on a mountain but if they follow the path they were given they are faithful whether they profess a faith or not.
Most important of all is to live with real love. NO anger, no threats, no hatred and compassion and caring for all. Most of us are not up to this so we must first perfect our lives before we dare offer correction to others.
Fairy tale time in Lakewood...
Posted by on September 17, 2007 06:21 PMOur heaven has a Stripper Factory and a Beer Volcano. Plus, every Friday is a religous holiday, praise the Flying Spaghetti Monster!
RAmen.
Posted by Pastafarian on September 17, 2007 07:59 PMAll hail Flying Spaghetti Monster
Ramen!
venganza.org
"Some may not believe they are on a mountain but if they follow the path they were given they are faithful whether they profess a faith or not."
Sorry Momma, but that's a bunch of bull.
Posted by All religion is a mental illness (except pasatafarianism) on September 17, 2007 08:48 PMWell, Mr. Forman, by the looks of all the mockers here, I'd say you might be onto something!
All religion is a mental illness (except pasatafarianism)
You too are a believer. You hold to your faith far more strongly than many who claim to have one. It is not my business to tell you how to believe or even TO believe. Mine is to follow my own faith and respect those with other opinions. You do not have to believe in gravity to fall down. If you jump off of a cliff to prove your doubt you fall. If you test the theory and then learn how to fly a plane you do not fall. Those who believe in gravity are not harmed by you nor you by them unless they manage to convince themselves that their fanaticism requires them to destroy your plane. The faith you profess is a denial of faith and you must be free to do so. You are following your own path. Is it clearer now?
Posted by momma y on September 18, 2007 12:39 AMDuring the first Millennium of our current period of history, a Middle Eastern camel driver named Mohammed set about to force the world to follow the precepts of a mythology book he claimed had been dictated to him by Deity. For Mohammed, as well as for his followers today, all the answers, to every possible question, were to be found in this book. And those who consider themselves to be the only true and righteous adherents to Mohammed’s teachings today, the Taliban, are determined to destroy, by any and all means necessary, every bit of human knowledge and achievement that does not find its roots in Mohammed’s writings. All art, science, politics, and every other area of human thought, in any field of endeavor, are to be forced into absolute conformity with the Mohammedan mythology book’s teachings. And, the Hierarchs of this religion do not hesitate to issue death warrants – called fatwa – against those who dare to suggest that a mythology book is not the absolute and final source of all human knowledge.
The Western world also possesses an antique mythology book. In its oldest form, it represents a rather eclectic plagiarism of the creation stories then current among such settled civilizations as existed in the area we know as Asia Minor. From time to time, the tribes of wandering nomads roaming the area would appropriate these legends, modify them, or amplify upon them as their own tribal experiences moved them so to do. Along with stories of what supposedly happened untold and uncounted ages before mankind even appeared on the planet, this book contains a ragged and uneven compilation of laws, rules, and regulations by which these primitive peoples sought to placate the forces of Nature, or entreat the favor and protection of those elements of power dimly perceived to be a form of Deity..
Neither of these works is even remotely a scientific textbook, or a genuine historical record of those events pre-dating human kind. But in today’s Western world, those true believers who make up the Western world’s Taliban insist that this Western mythology book contains all the answers to every question. And they too, seek to force all art, science, politics, and every other area of human thought, in any field of endeavor, into absolute conformity with this mythology book’s teachings. And while the Hierarchs of this form of religion have so far refrained from issuing death warrants against those who dare to disagree with them, nevertheless they continue to distort truth, spew forth endless diatribes of superstitious hatred against dissenters, and otherwise demand the immediate cessation of all human efforts to make progress in understanding the real truths of this world.
Some years back, the late Robert Heinlein wrote: “Beware of hairy eared prophets in a dirty shirt”. Today, in the Western world, these “prophets” go to the most expensive custom hair stylists, and wear the productions of Armani and Gucci when stirring up the populace. But the warning still holds true.
Mr. Foreman said:
"...all we have to do is go back to the story of Noah and the ark and the flood to determine which viewpoint is, in fact, truthful."
Funny stuff.
Gail K:
Well, Mr. Forman, by the looks of all the mockers here, I'd say you might be onto something!
Mockery would suggest that he's on something, rather than onto something.
Posted by Charles B on September 18, 2007 07:45 AMI heard a great line by a comedian yesterday.
He said alot of people going around talking about how the bible says this and the bible says that and how everyone needs to heed what at the bible says.
But ask them if they've ever read the whole thing, cover to cover, and REALLY understood what every word meant in the context that it was written.
Then he said, the bible is kind of like an ancient version of those long disclaimer agreements on the interent ...nobody really reads the whole thing, they just scroll through them and click on "I Agree".
So, let's get real people. This book was written over the course of several centurie and two millenia ago.
It had dozens of authors, many with agendas, and has been translated through only God knows how many different languages.
It's been fairly well documented that the story of Mary Magdelene being a prostitute was effectively planted in the bible to discredit her because some religious leaders didn't want it to be known that a woman had had as much influence on the creation and spread of Christianity as she did.
I'm not saying the bible should be disregarded. Far be it. It is valuable and tangible measure of mankind's spiritual evolution.
We need to recognize that this book is not the word of God. It is the words of men who said that God was speaking through them.
Alot of the people that make this claim today have megachurches and their own TV shows and earn millions of dollars a year.
Then there are those who make this claim and don't have anything and most people think they're crazy.
What's that song lyric? "Two men say they're Jesus..one of them must be wrong".
I have a problem with all the criticisms of what people believe. The purpose of the criticism is not to get believers to change but simply to vent one's feelings about the harm that religion has done in various ways.
But I'd prefer to focus on actions rather than beliefs. There are many people who are the subject of the criticisms who are wonderful and loving people, many of them doing a great deal of good for others. If their religion helps them to live this kind of life, who am I to criticize that?
The thing I dislike about so many strongly religious people is their arrogance, their claim that only they have discovered the true path. But that arrogance is not limited to believers. There are people in almost any belief, or non-belief, system who think they have it right and that others should follow their lead. For me, there are many paths to a good life. Many of those paths don't make sense to me, but I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that I am not all-knowing, though there are people like John II who would argue otherwise.
Criticizing religion is not going to make people less religious. Criticizing conduct might have a chance to be helpful, as long as it is not done arrogantly, and as long as a blanket is not used, as long as the conduct of some is not attributed to the conduct of all.
These words, my dear friends, are taken. Amen.
Posted by Truth on September 18, 2007 09:35 AMThe Reliability of the Bible
Obviously, a vast amount of time has passed since the Bible was first penned. So, how do we know that the Bible is reliable?
The Bible is a historical document. Interestingly enough, if you subject it to the same tests that you subject other historical documents to, youll discover that the Bible proves itself to be far superior to any other ancient writing.
First, lets look at the New Testament which, incidentally, was originally written in the Greek language between 50 and 100 A.D. Although we dont have the original autographs, there are presently some 5,000 Greek manuscripts in existence, with as many as 25,000 more copies. Just as amazing is the fact that the earliest manuscripts can be dated back as far as 120 A.D. This is tremendous when you consider that only seven of Platos manuscripts are in existence today and there's a 1,300-year gap which separates the earliest copy from the original writing! Equally amazing is another fact; and that is, that the New Testament has been virtually unaltered. This has been demonstrated by scholars who have compared the earliest written manuscripts with manuscripts written centuries later. And remember, the accounts in the New Testament were recorded directly by eyewitnesses, (or by those who were associated with them) and in fact had close contact with the events themselves.
But what about the Old Testament? Lets take a quick look at one of the most incredible finds of the century - the Dead Sea Scrolls. With the discovery of these manuscripts at Qumran in 1946, texts were found that were about 1,000 years older than any previously-known Old Testament manuscript. And when compared with the later texts, these writings proved to be virtually identical.
With every turn of the archaeologists spade, we see further evidence of Scriptures trustworthiness. Such renowned and historical scholars as William Albright and Sir Frederick Kenyon have clearly testified that the findings of archaeology have served to underscore the authenticity of the Bible. Well, is the Bible reliable? I believe the evidence speaks for itself. And with that, I rest my case.
by Hank Hanegraaff, www.equip.org
Posted by Gail K on September 18, 2007 09:37 AMYo Robert E. Forman: I don't have a problem with your credulously-held-belief as long as you don't force feed me crap (product from which god is made) held within your psyche. God loves to fart in the public arena. Being made out of crap, the stench is godly, which is to say overpowering. He does not fart in private, in church, or in your psyche. I have a Right to be free of the odor of godly flatulence; therefore, keep him out of the public arena mentioned in the New Testament and in our Constitution: Article 6 Paragraph 3. God Allah’s fart was odious enough to bring down the twin towers in a faith initiative; God Jesus’ fart brings Holy Crusades, Inquisition, Eleven Volumes of Holy Horror, and Holy Genocide on his Second Coming. A Book with talking animals is a fable. Yo.
Deicide Corner: “We would be 1,500 years ahead if it hadn't been for the church dragging science back by its coattails and burning our best minds at the stake.” -- Catherine Fahringer
I think The Rocky Montain News should do away with the Jean Torkelson religious gossip column.
Posted by Can I get an AMEN! on September 18, 2007 10:02 AMAMEN! and RAMEN!
You are following your own path. Is it clearer now?
Posted by momma y on September 18, 2007 12:39 AM
Yeah, statements of faith or lack of faith are all statements of faith, therefore faith is meaningless.
Posted by All religion is a mental illness (except pasatafarianism) on September 18, 2007 11:53 AMGail, don`t mean to be mean, but those 1000 year old Dead Sea Scrolls, talked about what.?
What stories were in them?
The Flood?, Sodom and Gomorrah , Garden of Eden?
Posted by Sharon B. on September 18, 2007 12:18 PMSharon,
The Dead Sea Scrolls aren't 1,000 years old, they're about 1,000 years OLDER than any earlier known biblical manuscripts.
I'm not sure if I paste some information from Wikipedia it will translate well here. Here's something about what was found:
Books (from the Dead Sea Scrolls) Ranked According to Number of Manuscripts found (top 16)[5]
Books No. found
Psalms 39
Deuteronomy 33
1 Enoch 25
Genesis 24
Isaiah 22
Jubilees 21
Exodus 18
Leviticus 17
Numbers 11
Minor Prophets 10
Daniel 8
Jeremiah 6
Ezekiel 6
Job 6
1 & 2 Samuel 4
You can find lots of information about the DSS at Wikipedia.
Posted by Gail K on September 18, 2007 12:48 PMI am not Gail; however, the Dead Sea Scrolls will never be interpreted: To wit: Scholar Y gives his interpretation; he dies. Scholar Z trashes A's interpretation and commences his interpretation. Sharon and I know that no, i.e. no historical reference to any god exists. The guy Muhammad had been dead 21 years before his fan club interpreted what he said, like with Jesus: Common sense (bias and prejudice) in action. Religious common sense is created out of that stinky stuff.
Posted by RG r22037yahoo on September 18, 2007 01:36 PMAs you rightly contend, it is God who defines sin, not the culture. Alas, the Church seems to have it the other way around.
Thank you for your letter.
Posted by Brian Stuckey on September 18, 2007 02:05 PMAnd God says: Let the twin towers collapse as Americans have violated the sin I defined: Not only did the Allah terrorists say this; the Christian Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell said it. How in the hell can god define sin?
Posted by RG on September 18, 2007 02:44 PMBoth sides in this argument have been successful. Those on the one side have convinced themselves that they are right, and those on other other side have done the same. Congratulations to all!!!
Posted by Truth on September 18, 2007 04:36 PMWell, Truth, as the children say, Duh! If anyone who participates in these forums thinks he or she is doing anything but preaching to the choir or just plain venting, he or she is in desperate need of medical attention. And that includes me!
Posted by Hans Christian Brando on September 18, 2007 06:04 PMFor me, Hans, there is a third purpose. It sort of keeps the cylinders in my brain pumping, thus hopefully staving off Alzheimer's, although I'm quick to add that a number of posters think it's too late for that. Plus, I think I've about convinced John II to join forces with me although I notice that he's very reluctant to admit it. Now, let's see, where did I put my eyeglasses so I can read whatever it is that I wrote. Oh, there they are, right there on my nose.
Posted by Truth on September 18, 2007 06:29 PMIf facts aren't trumping faith in your decision making process, then your religion and your beliefs are garbage.
Posted by Charles B on September 18, 2007 08:14 PMI post to make people laugh. Sometimes I do, sometimes I fail., Charles B. is my inspiration.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 18, 2007 09:54 PMGail K,
Very nice dissertation. Now, for something on the other side:
Do read - and perhaps add to your list of those commenting on the Bible:
Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman,
"The Bible Unearthed", The Free Press, New York, 2001.
These are Israeli scholars. And the burden of their excellent work shows that there is a great deal of the "Old Testament" that is far from being accurate history. They've turned a few shovelsful of earth as well; and they are finding more and more evidence of the basic fantasy, built upon folklore and myth, that today's bibliolaters would pass off as "science", including the rather egregious myth of the "great" building known as the "Temple of Solomon" - which very probably never existed. Or, if a building with that name did exist, wasn't at all what the books claim it to be.
There is a great deal of scholarship that doesn't contribute to blind acceptance of folkloric tales set up as "God's word". Keeps everything in proper perspective, I think.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 19, 2007 08:48 AMTruth, Sharon B.,
Those are good reasons to post, but I sort of had those mentally logged under the general category of "venting." It's the wannabe OpEd columnists who actually think they're going to sway public opinion and/or win a Pulitzer Prize who I find scary. (Need I name names?)
Hey Hans: I'll name a name: Keith. Man o man: that encyclopedia of facts will win a Pulitzer prize first time offered. Have you ever read elsewhere so much sagacity in his grammarless ten-word sentence? Yo
Posted by JVB on September 19, 2007 01:38 PMThanks Old Grouch. I'm aware that there will always be those who have arguments and "evidence," which, to non-scientists like myself, appear to favor either view. We can't all be archeological experts, and have to ultimately choose sides based on other factors. How much does one need to have science in order to prove something which reaches beyond science, such as a Creator? If we weigh the material evidence will it prove one position stronger? I guess, when it comes down to it, we make our decisions about what to believe by other influences and sensory input. For instance, I've had many answered prayers, which I cannot wave off as mere coincidence. I've had circumstances and events come together which make a strong case for convincing me. I've found too many answers to some of life's hard questions in the Bible for me to shrug it off as irrelevant.
Gail K,
I look at most of it this way: Man has been talking to God - or to whatever be the cultural concept of "deity", or "power" - ever since the dawn of human intelligence. Today, it's formally called, "prayer"; and, for the most part anyway, it seems to be a beneficial part of human experience.
However, when "God" starts talking back, that's the time to call for the men in the white coats.
Myth and folklore serve a valid and rightful purpose in the culture for which they are the basic oral texts for history, customs, laws, etc. And, they can - and in some ways do - carry more or less universal human themes that serve to "civilize" the culture as a whole and improve behavior, both in general and in particular.
But, demanding that ALL cultures adopt every detail of the singular myths and folklore of another culture, is just plain idiotic damn fool nonsense.
The civilizing themes may become useful and universal. And when they do, they are usually called "religion". As to the rest, a study of myth and folklore in general will show the parallels that exist in all cultures; and also underscore the value of some of the experiences in advancing the culture beyond the stage of caves, clubs, and animal skins.
But, on the other hand, that same study will show that there are a whole lot of ideas and details that are nothing but foolish puffery, or the best that could be done within the cultural level at the time to "explain" the otherwise inexplicable. When people begin to make these a part of religion too, that's when the whole thing deteriorates into nothing more than tomfoolery - or Protestantism in America.
To those interested, I heartily recommend the works of Professor Mercia Eliade, whose lifetime study, and writings, are well worth reading, and adding to anyone's library.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 19, 2007 08:16 PMGail, only one book, that of Isaiah is 1000 years older then any known version.
These scrolls were actually written during the time of Jesus and make no mention of him or his disciples.
The Essenes wrote most of these and their leader was killed by the Jewish authorities.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 19, 2007 08:34 PMGail K says: For instance, I've had many answered prayers, which I cannot wave off as mere coincidence.
This is scary stuff. I shall never utter anything derogatory about Gail: She could utter an imprecatory prayer and I am history, burned on the pyre, without ever having accomplished anything in life except for siring five; however, "Go forth and multiply," I did.
Posted by RG Deicide r22037yahoo FREE: FreeThought today ffrf.org on September 20, 2007 10:21 AMRG,
Want a good belly laugh?
Go up to James Jones's letter on the General and MoveOn.org.
He now calls himself a "liberal". And expects others to believe it.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 20, 2007 10:56 AMI'll just say that long before Harry Reid said the war was lost, John McCain said it was lost in 2003. I heard him say it last Sunday on Meet the Press. I'm off to the chess table to kick ass.
As Old Grouch says: Fill in the Web address and you come out in blue.
Posted by Richard Grimes r22037yahoo Get a free copy of FreeThought from ffrf.org on September 20, 2007 01:53 PM