Rise in atheism
I read was great distress that there is a rise in athiesthism (Sunday’s article ‘Religious extremism boosts ranks of atheists’, September 16, 2007).
I’m not going to quote scripture or get preachy here, because I too am turned off by that. But why do others feel they must base their faith on the actions of others, good or bad? Where’s everyone’s sense of individuality? I consider myself a devout Catholic but I seldom go to church because my faith is in my heart and not a building and that I find most attending to be hypocrites. I know that the Catholic church has had a bloody history (i.e., the Crusades) and that pedophile priests leave little to be desired. But I’m not going to quit my faith because of the Ted Haggards and Jihadist terrorists.
They are the ones with issues, not the Catholic church or any faith for that matter.
Furthermore, how can anyone look at a sunrise or children playing and not see God’s hand in their creation somehow? Take a walk in the mountains this autumn and prove that God is not around us. Surely, there has been a time in an atheist’s life where they were confronted with a terrible crisis and they were rescued, even without prayer. God and his son is there, saving us even without beckoning or acknowledging their presence.
The Devil’s greatest accomplishment is making people believe he doesn’t exist.
This letter has not been edited.
"...prove that God is not around us," expounds Todd Ponton so I offer proof: The biblical god, both of them, and the Muslim god along with the Mormon's god from Kolob cannot exist because no god(s) can be that cruel.
These gods bring Holy Genocide; they bring a lake of fire to assign billions of humans; they take sadistic pleasure. Babies two and under are slaughtered "coast to coast" to kill a "jew" god from the "loins of David." Religion's greatest success is Rule by Fear as opposed to Rule by Love. Ends:
Normally, I simply shake my head at the irrational ramblings of evangelical Christians, feeling somewhat sympathetic to the narrow-minded, braces-on-the-brain perspective into which they have been totally exploited. “Fundamentalism stops a thinking mind,” submits Tom a letter writer worth repeating beatsing what I say: "Religion stops a thinking mind."
Deicide Corner: “I'm an atheist. . . . how unfortunate it is to assign responsibility to the higher up for justice amongst people.” -- Ani DiFranco
And to achieve justice, the believer submits and imprecatory prayer which in Joshua's case stopped the sun so he could slaughter his enemies. Pat Robertson, et al, loves to petition god to kill his enemies.
Posted by Richard Grimes: Deicide [Free copy: FreeThought Today: ffrf.org on September 23, 2007 02:25 PMOn the contrary sir. The Devil's greatest achievement is in making people believe he is a great leader and friend of humanity when he turns his collar round backwards and puts "Reverend", in one form or other, in front of his name
Posted by Old Grouch on September 23, 2007 02:25 PMHow is it that hardly any major religion has looked at science and concluded, ‘This is better then we thought! The universe is much bigger then our prophets said, grander, more subtle, more elegant?’ Instead they say, ‘No, no, no! My god is a little god, and I want him to stay that way.’ A religion, old or new, that stressed the magnificence of the Universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.n
Posted by Carl Sagan on September 23, 2007 02:55 PMSome people have views of God that are so broad and flexible that it is inevitable that they will find God wherever they look for him. One hears it said that ‘God is the ultimate’ or ‘God is our better nature’ or ‘God is the universe.’ Of course, like any other word, the word ‘God’ can be given any meaning we like. If you want to say that ‘God is energy’ then you can find God in a lump of coal.
Borrowing from Carl, ' If by "God" one means the set of physical laws that govern the universe, then clearly there is such a God. This God is emotionally unsatisfying... it does not make much sense to pray to the law of gravity.'
Posted by Steven Weinberg on September 23, 2007 03:07 PMAthiesthism?
Posted by on September 23, 2007 03:22 PM"God and his son is there, " says Todd. Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same fiction. You'll find a dozen sites that say Jesus came from the "loins of David." Ask .com
I will create a god even if he/she doesn't like it.
Posted by Richard Grimes: Deicide r22037@yahoo [Free copy: FreeThought Today: ffrf.org on September 23, 2007 03:25 PMSo, Old Grouch believes in the devil (with capital D) but not in God. Interesting.
Posted by Uno on September 23, 2007 03:40 PMBelieving in God and the Devil, in today's America, requires one to confront the fact that our president is possessed by Lucifer or one of his lessor, but still harmful, demons. See conservative Catholic priest (and former exorcist) Malachi Martin's 'Hostage to the Devil' to see the parallels with the otherwise inexplicable quirks of this president and demonic possession.
Or you could not believe in God or the Devil, and regard Bush as merely grossly incompetent and secularly amoral.
Posted by on September 23, 2007 03:51 PMHow about you worry about your own faith, Todd, and stay out of everyone else's beliefs.
Posted by Dan on September 23, 2007 05:24 PMWhen I look at a sunrise it makes me believe...
...that the sun rises!
(and even that is wrong).
What an utterly stupid letter written by a profoundly ignorant prick.
Posted by The Devil (whoo-ooo-oo) on September 23, 2007 06:02 PMSo, sen Ernie Chambers, what else? a democrat sued God. That’s how far the left’s lunacy got. I guess everything in Nebraska is peachy, and democrats have nothing else to do. May be he should do something about inner city crime, but hell, who’s got the time for that?
Posted by Uno on September 23, 2007 07:02 PMWhy is it that people think that faith is like the clothes we wear, something we can change at will?
People's faith indeed changes over the years. But the changes are most often a surprise to the person. And the person can only speculate as to what caused the change.
Telling a person to believe in God, or not to believe in God, is as useless as telling a person to be happy or sad or mad. Faith is as beyond our control as our taste for different foods. We can make efforts to change our faith, but we never know if the change will be the one we wanted or something quite different, perhaps even the opposite of what we had in mind.
About the best we can do is to try to live a good, loving and compassionate life and then just see what kind of faith that produces. That is the same recipe for hoping for happiness.
Posted by Truth on September 23, 2007 07:34 PMUno,
Apparently, you have forgotten the tag line in the old song, that goes: "You can't have one without the other."
Or perhaps you haven't read the introductory part of the Book of Job, where there is a bit of friendly by-play, as two characters, "walk to and fro upon the earth".
One of the late Carl Jung's most important contributions to the whole area is to be found in his work, "Antwert auf Job" - in English, "The Answer to Job".
I just don't happen to subscribe to the idea that any trite cliche is a final absolute; and offer the expansion of the thought to include some of its inherent opposites.
No, Old G, the only “Book of Job” I’ve read lately was our company employee handbook.
I just call them good and evil, sometimes right and wrong.
Sheila, I am going to make an awful but true pun here. Maybe the kids you talked about were "Children of a lesser God".
One who just wrings his hands and can`t interfere for the little ones.
I would like to think the real Bill Maher reads and posts here, but I don`t. However that was beautiful Bill.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 23, 2007 10:45 PMUno,
Perhaps you should broaden your horizons, before attempting to discern what others might be thinking, or believing.
Not everyone deems it necessary to spend life cringing with fear at even the hint of an idea that there is more to life than just being all alone and sore afraid in a world he never made.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 24, 2007 06:53 AMTodd
You were correct when you said that devils greatest accomplisment was making people believe he doesn't exist.
Look at this comment site and you can see proof of that very comment.
What is sad is most are unwitting naive accomplices of his.
Others are in denial because of a tragic event in their lives that turn them against God because they felt he let them down.
Others deny his existence because it frees them up to live out their sexual immoralies and to justify the their other evil desires since there is no God or absolute right and wrong then they do not have anyone to answer to.
That is how the communists and Nazis were able to carry out the heinous crimes they committed. At the cost of around 150 million people in just part the 20th century.
They have the audacity to bring up the crimes the pseudo Christians committed during the "Centuries" of the Crusades and the Reformation which are dwafed in scale by these atheist and evolutionists. Survival of the fittest and the rest of their Metaphisical "Religion" called evolution and Darwinism.
What is ironic and laughable is that these fools are still worshiping a God of their own making as all pagens have since the beginning of human history.
Thank God for atheists. They at least have a lick of common sense. Mankind is finally starting to realize what a sham religion is - that's why it's on its way out. All the mayhem in the Middle East & elsewhere (yes even on our shores - atheists didn't fly jets into New York office towers) is caused by religious nut-jobs who KNOW that they're the only ones with the truth.
As the great philosopher George Carlin says (and I'm paraphrasing here): The mayhem we see in the world today - war, death, starvation, misery, suffering - isn't the work of a supreme being, it's the work of a clerk with a bad attitude.
Posted by drew on September 24, 2007 10:10 AMHIM
The "pseudo" christians of the crusades were just as certain of the truth of their beliefs as you are sure yours are correct, and as sure Osama is of his.
You're all a bunch of nut bags.
Posted by on September 24, 2007 10:18 AMQuotes from the great Richard Dawkins - I love his reference to religion as "organized ignorance.":
"We are all atheists about most of the gods that humanity has ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further."
"The enlightenment is under threat. So is reason. So is truth. So is science, especially in the schools of America. I am one of those scientists who feels that it is no longer enough just to get on and do science. We have to devote a significant proportion of our time and resources to defending it from deliberate attack from organized ignorance. We even have to go out on the attack ourselves, for the sake of reason and sanity. Of course, excellent organizations already exist for raising funds and deploying them in service of reason, science and enlightenment values…But the money that these organizations can raise is dwarfed by the huge resources of religious foundations such as the Templeton Foundation, not to mention the tithe-bloated, tax-exempt churches."
-- Richard Dawkins, quoted from the press release, “The Cydonia Group Declares War On Religion” (December 15, 2006)
Drew
All your heroes you quoted from are Johnny come lately fools. Atheism is a fairly recent minor blip in the history of mankind. Starting in the 1840's with Darwin, then Karl, Marx Freud and the rest of these pseudo intellectuals and scientists unleashing The Age of Atheism. The Bible has endure for milleniums. This aboration known as Atheism and evolution is starting to crumble at it's false foundations decade after decade with the advance of micro biology and new scientific discoveries of the complexity of the atom and its sud-atomic particles withe the fingerprint of a designer.
Evolutiion and Atheism will soon be a footnote in all the encyclopediaa of the future.
Posted by History in the Making on September 24, 2007 11:03 AMSheila, WOW, who crapped in your oatmeal? I am guessing that you have been hurt in life by some dude. Sorry to hear that. But not all men are pedophiles, just like not all female teachers are having sex with their students. So, tone down the rhetoric.
As to the OP, here is a novel concept... Let people believe what they want... If they want to be atheists, so be it. If they want to hang with Xenu and his dancing thetins, so be it. The trick is to let people live the way they want as long as it makes no inroads on my life.
When you die, you can find out first hand. If you do get to hang out with God and the Atheists aren't there, great, you get more face time with the big guy. If the Atheists are correct, well, you will be taking a dirt nap and won't care one bit.
Evolution as a science exists, but anyone who believes in the bible can explain it away. And vice versa. So, let people decide for themselves what is right for them and let's go grab a soda.
Posted by Dravur on September 24, 2007 11:27 AMAtheism & Science aren't religions. Science is a rational method of finding out facts and Atheism is simply a conclusion.
And to paraphrase some of the atheists already mentioned, the presence of God actually belittles the scope and grandeur of the universe and the accomplishments of human beings. Just as it belittles a child in saying it is not really his accomplishment, but that of it's parent, so it is with humans as a species.
At the beginning of the universe, be it a solitary Big Bang or energy flowing in from another universe (the multiverse theory), the early stars formed from the simplest matter, hydrogen. Inside those reactors, elements were formed, the elements of our universe, which were then scattered across the universe when those early stars died. This was repeated over and over again, until those elements started to condense in the gravitational pull of new stars, forming planets, life, and eventually, us. The elements in the human body: Oxygen, Carbon, Hydrogen, Nitrogen, Calcium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sodium, Magnesium, Copper, Zinc, Selenium, Molybdenum, Fluorine, Chlorine, Iodine, Manganese, Cobalt, Iron, Lithium, Strontium, Aluminum, Silicon, Lead, Vanadium, Arsenic, and Bromine were forged in the atomsmashers of early stars. We are made of Star Stuff.
Now, see how small Jehovah becomes in a scale that large? How Yaweh picking one little tribe on one little planet on the edge of a universe seems so ridiculous? How the idea of being only 6000 years old seems so small compared the operatic scale of a universe forming over billions of years, forged of violent upheavals and settling into rhythms that take millions of years to complete? And how instead of a universe formed for us, we instead have the privilege of being born in a universe that we can survive in a small section of and have the intelligence to adapt ourselves into exploring it even more fully.
There is a reason that atheists call religious people small minded.
Posted by Roger on September 24, 2007 11:32 AMOh, and stop calling yourself Catholic. Call yourself Reformed Catholic or Neo-Catholic or something like that. As long as you associate with the Church and the Papal state, the Pope and his organization have sway in the world. If every person who considers themselves Catholic, but doesn't believe in all the Pope's "words from God" and doesn't go to Mass every Sunday were to disassociate themselves from the Church and stop calling themselves Catholic, the power of the Pope as a religious leader would be seriously damaged.
Posted by Roger on September 24, 2007 11:45 AMRoger: Where did the universe and all of it's magnificent elements and chemicals come from?
Just askin'...
Posted by on September 24, 2007 11:55 AMOne at a time now, Sheila, where is your donation? Put in $5.00 for every time some lame man has insulted you in these forums. (joke).
Sheila doesn`t need to change, she if perfect as she is.
None of you men discussed the raped and murdered children. Raped and murdered by men, so pretend it equals adult women teachers having sex with boys.
History, back in the times of the English Catholic/Protestant wars, many of the ruling class were not believers, their letters to each other talked of keeping the poor and peasants faith going for the control over them it gave the ruling class.
Atheism is as old as organized religion. There have always been people who looked at the natural world and saw it as God free.
Evolutionists have not killed a single person. Dictators who used the science of evolution to kill, and I can`t think of one who actually did, would be no different then rulers who used Jesus to kill others.
Evolution rules. You are here because of it and it will go on long after the last human is gone from the Earth. No species, except roaches, goes on forever.
Dravur, sounds like you believe out of fear, not love for your God.
Death is a condition, not a place.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 24, 2007 12:00 PMSharon & Sheila the stuff that goes on in this world is sickening at best I agree with you, but the reason why it does is this: God created us with the ability to make our own choices, so that we wouldn't all be robots and have the opportunity to choose good and not evil.
The men and women that do wicked things do them because they CHOSE to, not because God let them, what do you suppose God should do then? Because really all sin is evil there isn't one more evil than the other, and if God came down to "smite" all evil, he'd have to wipe every last one of us out.
Posted by Heather on September 24, 2007 12:07 PMHIM:
You would have a lot more credibility (not hard) if you could spell worth a damn.
Posted by on September 24, 2007 12:12 PMJust Askin"
"...Where did the universe and all of it's magnificent elements and chemicals come from?"
You'll never get that answer. Humanist (those who feel superior as an entity over any need of "false deity") can only say that it's "always been."
But, that's where they collide with the position of those bowing to a deity and their beliefs -- where did God (of Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc) come from? They can only say that He/She has "always been."
Pray to man, or pray to God -- both are a religion. Both exult one form or the other above the beliefs held by adherents of the other.
The only true travesty in this entire "conflict" is when one side decides to push their belief system on others as being the sole Absolute answer.
Posted by mongoose on September 24, 2007 12:23 PMSounds as if this "History in the Making" guy is trying to become the new William Jennings Bryan, about 80 years or so too late.
More like "History's Long Passed Him By", and left him behind.
Somewhere in the farthest depths of the back-woods of backwards old Mississippi, maybe?
Posted by Old Grouch on September 24, 2007 12:26 PMHeather's version of God must be quite proud of what he has wrought: "if God came down to "smite" all evil, he'd have to wipe every last one of us out." Or perhaps He doesn't consider Himself responsible for what he has created. Here we have this supposedly all-knowing and all-loving God, who must know what is going to happen, using His powers to create people who Heather says are all evil. Great job!!
Posted by on September 24, 2007 12:27 PMAnon 12:27PM: A very simplistic, and foolish extrapolation without even considering the concept of free will. Great job!!
Posted by on September 24, 2007 12:36 PMI have to agree with Sharon on her assertion that religion is a means of (unearned) power and control over people.
It's OK by me that you believe something different from myself as long as you don't try and impose your beliefs and way of living on me.
One can live a moral life as long as we do no harm to others and don't act in a coercive manner towards others.
Self defense is OK.
If you want to indulge your own beliefs, have at it. If you want to live a life of unearned guilt that comes with religion, that is your business. Live and let live, to each his/her own, or whatever cliche you want to use. To me, religion is just one of many ways that some in society have created to gain power over people to control them and create a living without creating anything of value.
Politicians are another example but don't get me started down that road....
Posted by RU Serious on September 24, 2007 12:42 PMRU Serious: "Politicians are another example but don't get me started down that road..."
What's the matter, afraid of tackling a million or so page treatise...
Posted by on September 24, 2007 12:52 PM11:55 AM:
I can't say for sure where the universe came from. There are several theories about it, based on certain evidence and mathematical formulas, but it may be another 1000 years before mankind as the proper tools to clearly look back through time and find out. Even the new evidence in the past 10 years has changed things so who knows how much our abilities will increase in time
However, I'll pit the evolving knowledge of scientists against your holy book of choice. Just realize that just because theory "A" doesn't immediately answer the question, doesn't mean it's idea "G": God did it. There is still theory "B", "C", "D", "E" and "F" to go through, or it may be something entirely different.
Posted by Roger on September 24, 2007 12:58 PMHistory in the Making
Please carry on broadcasting your ignorance.
"That is how the communists and Nazis were able to carry out the heinous crimes they committed. At the cost of around 150 million people in just part the 20th century."
Last i checked Hitler was raised a good Catholic - and of all the tyrants in the world - Stalin, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, whoever - please name one who killed in the name of "atheism." They were all megalomaniacs who slaughtered people because they were delusional - their religion, or lack thereof had nothing to do with it. Unlike the millions who have been slaughtered over the last 2,000 years - and carry on being murdered - in the name of God, Jesus, Allah or any other "messiah."
"Metaphisical "Religion" called evolution and Darwinism." No - evolution is a scientific theory-not a religion- that has been posited over many years after carefully studying empirical scientific evidence. Faith or religion, on the other hand is the big cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. I believe that the world was created by the tooth fairy - and you can't prove that I'm wrong so it must be true - that's your version of "science."
And you're one of those who carps on about "absolute right and wrong." Well - the bible says quite clearly that disobedient children should be killed. Do you have kids? Did you killed them when they were disobedient? If not ,why not, Mr Morality?
And as one who calls others "fools" while desperately clinging to his bronze age superstitions - I suggest you go do a bit of reading on some sources other than the bible.
Posted by drew on September 24, 2007 12:59 PMPost 12:12
Are a few type-O's your only your rebuttal?
Why do you use the word "Damn" in your comment?
Obviously it had enough credibility to get your dander up.
Did I hit the nail on the head and in your mind I helped chip away at your false "Non-Belief" system. Is that why you didn't post your name along with your ineffectual comment.
I don't blame you for being ashamed and to seek cover in your self denial.
At least these other shameless fools and liars that are in denial also aren't afraid to post their names along with their long winded inane arguments that they use to mainly convince themselves.
Poor fools and they want so much to "Believe"!
Posted by History in the Making on September 24, 2007 01:07 PMHIM: "Poor fools and they want so much to "Believe"!
That's funny! - aren't you know-nothings the ones who desperately need to "believe?"
Is it because you're so scared of death that you have to be a God-botherer your entire life? Or do you just have too much time on your hands?
Try actually living your life - and spend less time worrying about Satan, Jesus & other people's morals - or lack thereof. You'll find yourself calmer & you'll probably be able to cut back on the meds.
Posted by drew on September 24, 2007 01:18 PMWhy is it I can post on letter X but the blog owner needs to censor my same post on letter Y? This post appears in Ramblings of Evangelical Christians but was twice detained for censorship in this letter. Perhaps the 3rd time is a charm: Go comment:
Sometimes the majority only means that all the fools are on the same side. Hey! I'm miffed over your namecalling of Sheila in the Atheist blog. She does not deserve such Keith-like diatribe. Heather should speak for herself; as for me, I am not evil; I'm a happy camper and I'd be happier 70-year-old if I could get laid once in a while.
Deicide Corner: "A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not,” James Madison alluding to religions, who along with Thomas Jefferson despised Christianity and all the Founders opted to keep it out of the Constitution.
Posted by Richard Grimes r22037@yahoo on September 24, 2007 01:04 PM
Posted by Richard Grimes r22037@yahoo on September 24, 2007 01:19 PMRoger:
"...just because theory "A" doesn't immediately answer the question, doesn't mean it's idea "G": God did it. There is still theory "B", "C", "D", "E" and "F" to go through, or it may be something entirely different." [ed. note: not to mention theories H through Z}
So, bottom line we're still in a holding pattern while the humanists try to disprove deity and the deity based religions are massaging the scientific assertions to see if and how they mesh in with their holy books.
Interesting, you cleared that mud up real good.
Your assertions have no more actual validity than those of the religious groups. I mean you're dealing with theories that are models and "scientific assumptions", but not hard cold empirical facts.
I submit that until you can claim Absolutism by way of empirical proof, you should live and let live.
To ridicule and scoff at those who hold to a belief in deity that can't be proved or disapproved is almost as disingenuous as claiming that humans evolved from a prehistoric mix of slime containing essential amino acids without being able to either replicate it or empirically demonstrate it's origin.
Have you found that elusive missing link between man and ape yet? In actuality there are many missing links that would substantiate cross species evolution. Darwin only found evolution within a species.
Both sides have their respective strengths and weaknesses. Quit attacking one another and work toward substantiation of your own position.
In the meantime, live and let live without trying to force your own belief constructs on others.
Posted by mongoose on September 24, 2007 01:36 PMAh, Todd, your not a "good Catholic". To be one you MUST attend Mass EVERY Sunday. To miss Mass is a mortal sin. So, guess what, your going to hell according to church standars. You cannot call yourself a "good Catholic" and ignore its basic teachings.
Posted by Mikey on September 24, 2007 01:45 PM"I suggest you go do a bit of reading on some sources other than the bible."
Posted by drew on September 24, 2007 12:59 PM
Start with BF Skinner...he'll explain to you why, on the evolutionary scale, negroid humans can never achieve the intellectual ability of Caucasian humans.
Of course, with drew, you could just study the MoveOn.org web site as though it were a holy book and be at the same level of intelligence he's at with his histrionics's and emotionally based arguments -- if you can stoop that low.
If you want to explore evolution vs. creationism, follow the guide of Roger, above. Whether or not you agree with him, he does present his case with some semblance of logic.
Posted by on September 24, 2007 01:52 PMAnonymous @ 1:52
Do you have a point?
I have "histrionics's and emotionally based arguments " - I notice you don't cite which ones are "emotionally-based" - or try to refute them .
And as for ..." Start with BF Skinner...he'll explain to you why, on the evolutionary scale, negroid humans can never achieve the intellectual ability of Caucasian humans." So I assume that you're saying that because one of BF Skinner's arguments are fallacious, that makes the bible true? And did BF Skinner just pop into your head? Interesting. Seems that you're a little adrift here - have your black & white, faith-based premises divorced you from any sense of coherent thought?
And you're discussing "logic?" I assume that you were never on the debate team.
Posted by drew on September 24, 2007 02:15 PMmongoose:
I would be fine to live and let live if these people would let me live in peace. But they don't. Somehow their morals are better, so they are constantly trying to force those morals on me, because "to allow sin is a sin". And the only way to get them to shut up is to remove the pillar that holds them up: the existence of God (Yahweh, Buddha, Jehovah, Vishnu, etc). Because with that gone, then they must actually come up with good reasons why something is good or bad and not just "Because God said so".
Amazing, isn't it? That people so want an immediate, easy-to-follow set of rules that they will throw away their critical thinking facilities so that things will be "easy". All the answers right here, right now. Life doesn't owe us that. We, instead, owe it to ourselves and our future generations to try and figure these things out. It's going to take some time. You may die before we figure it out. Sorry.
It is said when a scientist comes up with a fossil to fill a gap in the fossil record, the creationist immediately says there are now 2 gaps. We should be happy to have the record we do have, because only a handful of dead creatures become fossils, the rest become oil or coal or some other 'fossil fuel' that powers the SUVs covered in "Know Jesus, Know Peace" stickers.
Posted by Roger on September 24, 2007 02:16 PMRoger
I was speaking to both sides of the argument, not just your's.
I'm tired of the Christian Evangelical Right attempting to force their concept of a moral code on everyone through political strong arming. I'm tired of the humanist deriding and literally punishing those of a religious orientation for their beliefs.
The religious proselytize and attempt to discredit the "heathens" of society by countering assertions contrary to their own beliefs. Meanwhile, your side has it's own set of zealots: "...And the only way to get them to shut up is to remove the pillar that holds them up: the existence of God (Yahweh, Buddha, Jehovah, Vishnu, etc). Because with that gone..."
I think it's gone beyond amusing watching the two sides try to tear down, "remove the pillars" of the other.
Both sides of the argument have made crusades out of condemning and/or discrediting the other. Both sides have zealots who will not be satisfied until the other philosophy no longer has adherents -- both sides act with religious zeal to establish themselves as the ABSOLUTE while banishing the philosophy of the other.
Both sides claim to have found "true enlightenment" -- yet both walk in the dark in dealing with people of other views. Religious zeal and fervor runs rampant on both sides - you just swear your allegiance to a different concept of deity.
Posted by mongoose on September 24, 2007 02:42 PMThere isn`t any other side to the theory of evolution anymore than there is one for light theory.
A scientific theory is an explanation of an observable phenomenon, not a bunch of wild guesses.
read the newest Discover mag and see how the school kids in Christian schools are being taught. Well, probably none of them will go into biology, zoology, anthropology, geology, medicine, or any of the earth and natural sciences, they will all sell real estate and life insurance.
The other side to religion is atheism, the other side to evolution is not creationism.
Roger, welcome to the forums. Yowee another scientist here. Good.
Heather, love you hon, but that "all are sinners" stuff is bologna.
The trouble in the Garden of Eden wasn`t caused by an apple, it was a green pear.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 24, 2007 03:20 PMMongoose
It is we who are tired of you and your group forcing your blind lies and excuses for your non-belief ,immorality and whinning in "Our" nation. We were here long before you even had a clue and you still do not as to who and why this country was founded.
You of all people cannot honestly speak to both sides this argument. You are totally unqualified and should just stick to yours which is repetitive and predictable.
You need some need stuff because this tripe isn't cutting it and never did.
Posted by Tired of Atheists on September 24, 2007 03:21 PMTodd Ponton "read with great distress" that some folks have decided they're atheists. Why the distress? Isn't it O.K. to have a different perspective? Isn't it wonderful that his God gave everyone the power to think for themselves? Relax, Todd. Everyone is just the way they are.
Posted by Stan Broyles on September 24, 2007 03:22 PMSharon B.
Only the serpent like you in the garden would claim to know that it was a green pear.
So what are you Sharon? A skanky slut or a lesbian?
It has to be be one or the other. You obviously are not the intellectual you imagine yourself to be. Just as wise cracking pig and I do mean pig.
I bet you have at least 2 STD's and are ugly as sin!
What a sorry excuse for womanhood.
Looks like Stan Broyles is talking to his imaginary friend again and trying to make some sort of point.
If he can talk to his imaginary friend he should be able to talk to God who is listening.
A mind and a soul is a terrible thing to waste.
Posted by Harvey The Rabbit on September 24, 2007 04:10 PMHave you found that elusive missing link between man and ape yet? In actuality there are many missing links that would substantiate cross species evolution. Darwin only found evolution within a species.
Posted by mongoose on September 24, 2007 01:36 PM
Mongoose, this is pseudo-scientific gibberish. No scientist talks in these terms. Please explains what you mean with specific instances.
Posted by Science Guy on September 24, 2007 04:31 PMTired of Atheists
"You of all people cannot honestly speak to both sides this argument. You are totally unqualified and should just stick to yours which is repetitive and predictable."
Why am I unqualified? What gives you superiority?
"We were here long before you even had a clue and you still do not as to who and why this country was founded."
Who are the "we" in your statement? And, enlighten me please, why was this country founded?
Posted by mongoose on September 24, 2007 04:40 PMHell needs. let me try this again.
The trouble in the Garden of Eden wasn`t from an apple it was from "A GREEN PEAR", or PAIR.
a green(inexperienced) pair (Adam and eve who had no one to talk to)
The trouble was caused be an inexperienced couple A GREEN PAIR. Pair is another spelling for pear.. PAIR, as in couple, two.,
Also pare, as in peel. Pair, pear, pare. it was a joke you diphthong.
But while you are up here on Earth it is nice to know what is needed in Hell., I will tell you mom and sister they are wanted down below.......
Posted by Sharon B. on September 24, 2007 04:43 PMScience Guy
I apologize for being so vague in my statement.
Darwin, and subsequent evolutionary studies have documented the evolution within a species; i.e., the Galapagos Turtle evolving over time to better adapt to it's environment.
However, there is no documented empirical evidence showing a species evolving into a new species. while it is postulated that such evolution has occurred, no evidence of such evolution has been found.
What I so euphemistically referred to as a "missing link" (a truly non-scientific term) is evidence of such evolution in th form of a cross-species showing the various stages (or some stages) of an evolutionary transition.
Posted by mongoose on September 24, 2007 04:56 PMSharon B
My God, woman...what did you do to bring down the fire and brimstone?
Hell Needs Harlots is a great example of what is driving people away from Christianity. Perhaps he should go back and read the parable of Jesus meeting the women at the well...
Posted by mongoose on September 24, 2007 05:03 PMI have an alternate theory of how every living thing got to be here.
God would look down and say, "Hmmm I think this meadow needs something small and furry to eat seeds, I will make a new animal, put it down there and let Adam name it"
Bingo, we have chipmunks.
This is the Plunk Down Theory.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 24, 2007 05:03 PM"So what are you Sharon? A skanky slut or a lesbian?
It has to be be one or the other. You obviously are not the intellectual you imagine yourself to be. Just as wise cracking pig and I do mean pig.
I bet you have at least 2 STD's and are ugly as sin!
What a sorry excuse for womanhood."
Hell here's an idea: SHUT UP and don't you even act like you are speaking on my behalf, or God's......................
You are like a freaking 2 year old that doesn't know how to get their point across without calling someone names or throwing a tantrum.
Start pulling that plank out of your eye, and study words like GRACE & MERCY and start handing it out like God handed it to you, you poor pathetic excuse........
Sharon I didn't expect you to buy what I said, I never expect you too, it's just that I had to come to a point in my life that I needed some way to make sense of not just the world's suffering, but my own.
I lived a long life being mad at God and for what? That's all I was saying :)
Love ya right back!
Where's Sheila at?
Posted by Heather on September 24, 2007 05:14 PMMongoose:
Way go my friend. You make a rant and have the atheists cussing you for being a bible thumper; and the bible thumpers damning you for being an atheist!
If they knew you personally like I do they'd probably string you up amidst a pagan dance on one side and revival on the other, and congratulate each other for ridding the world of a cynical pain in the ass.
Posted by darfor on September 24, 2007 05:29 PMHeather, Sheila is hiding from my web site: http://www.the3day.org/sandiego07/nickdaniel
I told a joke and got Hell. (Hell, that was another joke).
Mongoose tried to be a kind of peace maker and that went well, didn`t it. No good deed will go unpunished on these threads.
Hell, needs Harlots. Sorry friend, I haven`t been a harlot since 1983. I think my harlot days are over.
This site is acting screwy today, slow and glitchy.
Looking for donations here folks. And I will nag.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 24, 2007 06:16 PMSharon B
Don't you just love it when a plan comes together?
Or, when a sensible dialog goes so smoothly with rational positions being espoused from all participating -- a true exchange of intellectual concepts?
I'm totally refreshed and reinvigorated!
Mongoose, yes this intellectual exchange has been so stimulating.
I think I would rather change the cat box than go through another.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 24, 2007 06:57 PMit appears I struck a cord. The powers that be chose to delete my post. I guess the truth hurts.
Posted by Sheila on September 24, 2007 07:05 PMHi Sharon,
It always could have been worse. Just think what it would have been like to have those two great 'theologians", Jones and Noggindog, puting in their oars.
Though I certainly must say, the cat-box metaphor was well chosen to describe this one.
Did you see the one from "Jimminy" on the "Purity" line?
Have a good evening.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 24, 2007 07:11 PMHEATHER: Thank you for at least attempting to communicate without attack. That was refreshing.
Now, my question is going to be a difficult one for you to address. Please realize that I wasn't, in my post that the conservative paper decided to was too close to 'real' to leave up, talking about people who commit atrocities against others. Nor was I questioning freewill.
I WAS trying to address the idea that people when, AT THE END of a crisis, saying
'I prayed and god saved me'.
So, okay, you believe that to be true, too correct? they prayed. god saved, right?
Now, close your eyes. Picture her in her last few moments on this earth.
Posted by Sheila on September 24, 2007 07:21 PMmongoose:
Please don't confuse passion for religious zeal. I have enough experience with religious zeal and know the difference between the two.
The other thing is that I know exactly what will change my mind. If Jesus appears in full glory, in such a way that we can confirm his existence, I will believe. A fanatical Muslim wouldn't believe, and instead claim that it is a trick of the Devil (And I use a Christian example because I am most familiar with it. Substitute other religious variations to your preference).
And playing both sides doesn't make you clever. If you want to something like that, stick to when people simply go for the ad homen attacks and don't actually submit anything to the conversation.
Sharon B.
Thank you for the compliment, but I am no scientist. I just have enough braincells to figure out that Dawkins and Sagan are more qualified to talk about the universe than the Pope or Pat Robertson. I am more of a science fanboy, unable to do the work myself, but I can cheer on those who can. Less money for rockets to Tehran and more money for rockets to Mars.
"However, there is no documented empirical evidence showing a species evolving into a new species. while it is postulated that such evolution has occurred, no evidence of such evolution has been found.
What I so euphemistically referred to as a "missing link" (a truly non-scientific term) is evidence of such evolution in th form of a cross-species showing the various stages (or some stages) of an evolutionary transition."
Posted by mongoose on September 24, 2007 04:56 PM
Well, I think you're totally wrong on this one.
First, there is no "missing link" between Humans and Apes, as our common ancestor was neither. Both lines have evolved since the split ~6-8MYA.
Humans and apes share the y-5 molar pattern. Humans are the only apes with the y-5 molar pattern who walk upright. There are numerous fossils of bipedal apes with y-5 molar patterns from East Africa going back almost 4 million years. It is believed that these fossils represent many different species, some of which died out, some of which became Homo Sapiens. There is no Homos Sapiens prior to 1 million years ago. These fossils have smaller brains, larger teeth, and less refined bipedal locomotion than Sapiens does.
For your position to be correct, Homo Erectus and previous Australopithecines must all really just be Homo Sapiens that gradually evolved into modern man; i.e. no new species. This ignores the side branches such as Australopithecus Boisei who evolved in a very different direction, and became LESS human-like before vanishing.
Is your position that evolution must show every transitional step between ancestor and modern form to be valid? Or is it that there must be conclusive proof of change in "kind"?
There is increasingly good fossil evidence of bears returning to the sea and evolving into whales. There are numerous species of more or less human-like bipedal apes with y-5 molar patterns, some of which become more human-like as time goes on. Science offers the most likely explanation for the available data, subject to revision for new data. Religion offers dogma.
You're also wrong when you state "humanists try to disprove deity."
Science is incapable of doing so, as "God did it" explains everything, and therefore nothing. It's not testable, not scientific, and not relevant to science. Scientists understand that science and religion are meant to address different spheres of knowledge. Tru religious belivers do not make sucah a distinction, and think religion has the answer for everything.
Ramen!
Sorry Sharon & Sheila I was freezing my rear off at my sons football practice........
Great joke Sharon lol.........
Sheila at the risk of being annoying this is my take on prayer:
God ALWAYS answers prayer, sometimes He says "yes", sometimes He says "no" and sometimes He says "You've got to be kidding?" I actually have that on a plaque in my hallway lol.
Now in my final moments, depending how I die I hope the last look on my face is me ROLLING MY EYES, no really though I'm just kidding.........
Have a good night I am going to go warm up and dry off.....
Posted by Heather on September 24, 2007 08:21 PMEveryone, before we all lose interest in this one, how do we show that animals are the same species? Or that they are different ones.?
If two animals can mate and have a fertile offspring they are the same species. That is impossible to do with fossils. (joke space for Sheila here ).
Did you hear of the pregnant mules? Russia had one and now we have, or had one. Don`t know what the babies looked like but would like to see their pictures.
Someday DNA will show speciation, as in which animals could have mated or not.
someone finally liked the joke. Old Grouch I saw Jimminy`s post, complemented him on it and he did it AGAIN on another thread.
Never praise Jimminy.
I really love all you guys and gals, and I am sober too.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 24, 2007 08:40 PMHeather: About prayer and other things:
I didn't ask how you want to die, I asked you to imagine that little girl's last moments. Imagine what it was that SHE saw while whe was being raped and in the moments before she was so brutally murdered.
Tell me, do you think she prayed? Do you think your 'god' said 'nah, not comin' ta yer aid today, kid'.?
That's all.
Ramen! mmmmmm....sounds good ,
just because we are Atheist and ya'll are Christian and you choose to start the argument here you are therefore breaking your 10 commandments in casting the first stone towards our direction , i am a human just like you, i have feelings, i am a nice guy i hold the door open for people, i use my turn signal, i listen to the same kinds of music.. i just dont see what the big deal is, i dont push my free thinking on anyone and i expect the same dont push your religions on me , and if we never discussed religion we would be great friends, but unfortunately someone had to go and throw stones,
just my two cents , have a nice night all ,
your local concerned Atheist
Hoimaha C.
Mongoose said ” Darwin, and subsequent evolutionary studies have documented the evolution within a species; i.e., the Galapagos Turtle evolving over time to better adapt to it's environment.”
” there is no documented empirical evidence showing a species evolving into a new species. while it is postulated that such evolution has occurred, no evidence of such evolution has been found”
In that case I think you misunderstood the book “Origin of Species”.
What Darwin showed was that the different species were related and had emerged stepwise both from common ancestral species, and sometimes from the nearest other species.
I think you are confusing biblical “kinds” with the taxonomic classification system.
There are 7 taxons: kingdom, phylum, class, order, family, genus, and species.
As you will note species are the lowest taxon, whereas I think you mean to point at family or genus.
Darwin very much showed speciation occurring.
Genetic studies have gone further up the structure to show both in cladistics and in mapping, not only how phyla and classes are linked, but also that there is substantial transportation across genus and species. Human and ape did not split only once, but had several merges and splits.
Sorry mate, scripture has no answers when it comes to this. It stops at a bronze-age understanding of the planet.
Sharon: hey!! I wasn't hiding from your site, I donated there, girl!!!
(please do not give out my personal information, by the way... seems silly to say as I don't really think you will.)
Kisses.
Oh thank you, I keep checking the total and it doesn`t change. My donation isn`t there either.
That remark about you hiding, was just me being a smart ass.
I don`t think they will give out more then your name. Wish there was a way to e-mail you without all the post bats, who hang on a thread till it is dead, following me to you.
This young man makes up for the John II`s in the World.
Bangalore, Have you noticed that the Creationists now acknowledge evolution in the sense of virus, which is pretty hard to overlook, and bacteria?
Micro evolution, I think they call this. And the dinosaurs are giving them fits because the kids love those creatures and love of dinos leads them over to the dark side. Evolution.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 25, 2007 12:40 AMI retrieve old bread from where they give it away to feed the birds. I cracked open a large loaf well encrusted and out poured tiny fast crawling bugs. I scurried as if I was praying to avoid hell to kill all the critters (though I hate to kill any living creature). Of course, the bread was baked at high temp, right, so the infestation took place inside the bread. God must have created the critters, right, after the bread sat on the shelf for a week or more, right. I'll bet Heather knows.
Posted by Richard Grimes r22037yahoo Deicide Free: FreeThought ffrf.org on September 25, 2007 09:52 AMWell, it seems I've sparked a lot of interest in my letter to the editor. I had no idea.
To those who called me names and attempted to deflect my intentions to your own agenda, you only proved me right that the Devil, or evil or whatever you call it, has saturated your thoughts and enslaved your common sense to what God is. God can be an expression in many ways. It doesn't matter what you believe, as long as you believe.
I believe.
I'll side with believers any day, as they have opened minds to converse an exchange of ideas civily.
-Todd Ponton
Posted by Todd Ponton on September 25, 2007 12:06 PMBelievers have closed minds. That is the problem.
They are openly conversing about religion in Iraq right now. They are exchanging religious ideas in a very civil way in Africa also. And todays Denver Post shows believers falling all over the floor as the holy ghost hits them like ducks in a shooting gallery.
I believe in people, I will hang out with the best of them instead.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 25, 2007 12:14 PMTodd I've said it over and over and over: Common sense is a collection of your bias and prejudice which explains why it is so common. You must never allude to common sense again. This forum is proof enough that common sense exists only in the psyche of the beholder. Believers don't exchange ideas: they simply accept through faith the existence of ideas like walking on water. J.C. actually tried it but he had holes in his feet and sunk.
Posted by RichardGrimes r22037@yahoo Free: Freethought Today ffrf.org on September 25, 2007 02:18 PMPonton said ”I'll side with believers any day, as they have opened minds to converse an exchange of ideas civily. “
Excellent, so you are open to the possibility that Christianity is wrong, that the Wiccans may be right, that Allah may be the one and only god, that Wotan is the true god, that Zeus is the highest power, and that there is a bone-china teapot orbiting the sun and contains a message from the Buddha.
Good on you.
For my part, I see no reason to believe any of those things and nothing I have seen in nature leads me to believe in supernatural powers.
I have however, seen a lot that leads me to think that humans are prone to believe that there are.
Superstition is a natural and easy path to take, but with some effort and discipline one can overcome this bad habit.
" . . . believers . . . they have opened minds . . . ."
You are speaking of "AnAmerican", and his confreres and claque, then, are you? Those who continuously inform us of their beliefs, that is?
Perhaps you meant to say, "empty heads"?
And, if not that, sir, I must say you have an interesting concept of how to, "exchange . . . ideas civily", to say the least.
Posted by Old Grouch on September 26, 2007 08:35 AMTodd, if you are still on this thread, how can you look at a pregnant elk, gutted by wolves for the fetus, which they eat while the mother is still alive, and not feel the love of God.
How can you see some of the birth defects babies have and not be warmed in your heart that these little ones are so cared for by God.
We get the bad with the good because life depends upon death.
People lose faith in this manufactured God of love, and some go on to respect the God of Reality. The God that probably is.
The God they find in the Universe, not in selected little bits of sweet stuff.
And they sure can`t find a rational God in any holy book.
Don`t fear the rise of atheism, you have only one person to worry about, yourself. The rest of us are perfectly content to be as we are.
Posted by Sharon B. on September 26, 2007 11:01 AMSharon, God needs to provide animals with food. Wolves are not built with MRI's to see if their prey is pregnant. They know only that they are hungry. The same is for us when we bite into a hamburger. You've supplied a weak example. If you had it your way, God would make it so all living things don't require eating. God has a bigger picture of things, and the law of physics requires a reaction for every action (i.e. eating to grow or live). I suspect you're a vegitarian. Keep in mind plants are alive too.
As for deformed babies or any like-tragedy, if everything was perfect, we'd be complacent and not appreciate the joy that comes with the sorrow. We would be too reliant if all our needs were met and we would not grow and mature.
I think you need to see life as it really is. Get out and see the world. If you try to avoid trouble, how are you going to be prepared when trouble finds you?
To be honest, I'm not worried about antitheism (correct spelling, not mine). My concern is that people should conclude what faith (or lack of) they should follow by their own merits, not by the merits of other's actions, as I mentioned initially. If someone's going to follow a faith (even if it's antitheism), let it be a legitimate belief, not what the actions of others compelling someone to believe. We were given free will after all. It’s a contradiction to be, ‘content as you are’ when your contentment is influenced by the actions of complete strangers.
-Todd Ponton
Sharon, God needs to provide animals with food. Wolves are not built with MRI's to see if their prey is pregnant. They know only that they are hungry. The same is for us when we bite into a hamburger. You've supplied a weak example. If you had it your way, God would make it so all living things don't require eating. God has a bigger picture of things, and the law of physics requires a reaction for every action (i.e. eating to grow or live). I suspect you're a vegitarian. Keep in mind plants are alive too.
As for deformed babies or any like-tragedy, if everything was perfect, we'd be complacent and not appreciate the joy that comes with the sorrow. We would be too reliant if all our needs were met and we would not grow and mature.
I think you need to see life as it really is. Get out and see the world. If you try to avoid trouble, how are you going to be prepared when trouble finds you?
To be honest, I'm not worried about antitheism (correct spelling, not mine). My concern is that people should conclude what faith (or lack of) they should follow by their own merits, not by the merits of other's actions, as I mentioned initially. If someone's going to follow a faith (even if it's antitheism), let it be a legitimate belief, not what the actions of others compelling someone to believe. We were given free will after all. It’s a contradiction to be, ‘content as you are’ when your contentment is influenced by the actions of complete strangers. Even if it's me.
-Todd Ponton
Sharon, God needs to provide animals with food. Wolves are not built with MRI's to see if their prey is pregnant. They know only that they are hungry. The same is for us when we bite into a hamburger. You've supplied a weak example. If you had it your way, God would make it so all living things don't require eating. God has a bigger picture of things, and the law of physics requires a reaction for every action (i.e. eating to grow or live). I suspect you're a vegitarian. Keep in mind plants are alive too.
As for deformed babies or any like-tragedy, if everything was perfect, we'd be complacent and not appreciate the joy that comes with the sorrow. We would be too reliant if all our needs were met and we would not grow and mature.
I think you need to see life as it really is. Get out and see the world. If you try to avoid trouble, how are you going to be prepared when trouble finds you?
To be honest, I'm not worried about antitheism (correct spelling, not mine). My concern is that people should conclude what faith (or lack of) they should follow by their own merits, not by the merits of other's actions, as I mentioned initially. If someone's going to follow a faith (even if it's antitheism), let it be a legitimate belief, not what the actions of others compelling someone to believe. We were given free will after all. It’s a contradiction to be, ‘content as you are’ when your contentment is influenced by the actions of complete strangers. Even if it's me.
-Todd Ponton
Sharon, God needs to provide animals with food. Wolves are not built with MRI's to see if their prey is pregnant. They know only that they are hungry. The same is for us when we bite into a hamburger. You've supplied a weak example. If you had it your way, God would make it so all living things don't require eating. God has a bigger picture of things, and the law of physics requires a reaction for every action (i.e. eating to grow or live). I suspect you're a vegitarian. Keep in mind plants are alive too.
As for deformed babies or any like-tragedy, if everything was perfect, we'd be complacent and not appreciate the joy that comes with the sorrow. We would be too reliant if all our needs were met and we would not grow and mature.
I think you need to see life as it really is. Get out and see the world. If you try to avoid trouble, how are you going to be prepared when trouble finds you?
To be honest, I'm not worried about antitheism (correct spelling, not mine). My concern is that people should conclude what faith (or lack of) they should follow by their own merits, not by the merits of other's actions, as I mentioned initially. If someone's going to follow a faith (even if it's antitheism), let it be a legitimate belief, not what the actions of others compelling someone to believe. We were given free will after all. It’s a contradiction to be, ‘content as you are’ when your contentment is influenced by the actions of complete strangers. Even if it's me.
-Todd Ponton
Sharon, God needs to provide animals with food. Wolves are not built with MRI's to see if their prey is pregnant. They know only that they are hungry. The same is for us when we bite into a hamburger. You've supplied a weak example. If you had it your way, God would make it so all living things don't require eating. God has a bigger picture of things, and the law of physics requires a reaction for every action (i.e. eating to grow or live). I suspect you're a vegitarian. Keep in mind plants are alive too.
As for deformed babies or any like-tragedy, if everything was perfect, we'd be complacent and not appreciate the joy that comes with the sorrow. We would be too reliant if all our needs were met and we would not grow and mature.
I think you need to see life as it really is. Get out and see the world. If you try to avoid trouble, how are you going to be prepared when trouble finds you?
To be honest, I'm not worried about antitheism (correct spelling, not mine). My concern is that people should conclude what faith (or lack of) they should follow by their own merits, not by the merits of other's actions, as I mentioned initially. If someone's going to follow a faith (even if it's antitheism), let it be a legitimate belief, not what the actions of others compelling someone to believe. We were given free will after all. It’s a contradiction to be, ‘content as you are’ when your contentment is influenced by the actions of complete strangers. Even if it's me.
-Todd Ponton
Sharon, God needs to provide animals with food. Wolves are not built with MRI's to see if their prey is pregnant. They know only that they are hungry. The same is for us when we bite into a hamburger. You've supplied a weak example. If you had it your way, God would make it so all living things don't require eating. God has a bigger picture of things, and the law of physics requires a reaction for every action (i.e. eating to grow or live). I suspect you're a vegitarian. Keep in mind plants are alive too.
As for deformed babies or any like-tragedy, if everything was perfect, we'd be complacent and not appreciate the joy that comes with the sorrow. We would be too reliant if all our needs were met and we would not grow and mature.
I think you need to see life as it really is. Get out and see the world. If you try to avoid trouble, how are you going to be prepared when trouble finds you?
To be honest, I'm not worried about antitheism (correct spelling, not mine). My concern is that people should conclude what faith (or lack of) they should follow by their own merits, not by the merits of other's actions, as I mentioned initially. If someone's going to follow a faith (even if it's antitheism), let it be a legitimate belief, not what the actions of others compelling someone to believe. We were given free will after all. It’s a contradiction to be, ‘content as you are’ when your contentment is influenced by the actions of complete strangers. Even if it's me.
-Todd Ponton
Sharon, God needs to provide animals with food. Wolves are not built with MRI's to see if their prey is pregnant. They know only that they are hungry. The same is for us when we bite into a hamburger. You've supplied a weak example. If you had it your way, God would make it so all living things don't require eating. God has a bigger picture of things, and the law of physics requires a reaction for every action (i.e. eating to grow or live). I suspect you're a vegitarian. Keep in mind plants are alive too.
As for deformed babies or any like-tragedy, if everything was perfect, we'd be complacent and not appreciate the joy that comes with the sorrow. We would be too reliant if all our needs were met and we would not grow and mature.
I think you need to see life as it really is. Get out and see the world. If you try to avoid trouble, how are you going to be prepared when trouble finds you?
To be honest, I'm not worried about antitheism (correct spelling, not mine). My concern is that people should conclude what faith (or lack of) they should follow by their own merits, not by the merits of other's actions, as I mentioned initially. If someone's going to follow a faith (even if it's antitheism), let it be a legitimate belief, not what the actions of others compelling someone to believe. We were given free will after all. It’s a contradiction to be, ‘content as you are’ when your contentment is influenced by the actions of complete strangers. Even if it's me.
-Todd Ponton
Sharon, God needs to provide animals with food. Wolves are not built with MRI's to see if their prey is pregnant. They know only that they are hungry. The same is for us when we bite into a hamburger. You've supplied a weak example. If you had it your way, God would make it so all living things don't require eating. God has a bigger picture of things, and the law of physics requires a reaction for every action (i.e. eating to grow or live). I suspect you're a vegitarian. Keep in mind plants are alive too.
As for deformed babies or any like-tragedy, if everything was perfect, we'd be complacent and not appreciate the joy that comes with the sorrow. We would be too reliant if all our needs were met and we would not grow and mature.
I think you need to see life as it really is. Get out and see the world. If you try to avoid trouble, how are you going to be prepared when trouble finds you?
To be honest, I'm not worried about antitheism (correct spelling, not mine). My concern is that people should conclude what faith (or lack of) they should follow by their own merits, not by the merits of other's actions, as I mentioned initially. If someone's going to follow a faith (even if it's antitheism), let it be a legitimate belief, not what the actions of others compelling someone to believe. We were given free will after all. It’s a contradiction to be, ‘content as you are’ when your contentment is influenced by the actions of complete strangers. Even if it's me.
-Todd Ponton
Sharon, God needs to provide animals with food. Wolves are not built with MRI's to see if their prey is pregnant. They know only that they are hungry. The same is for us when we bite into a hamburger. You've supplied a weak example. If you had it your way, God would make it so all living things don't require eating. God has a bigger picture of things, and the law of physics requires a reaction for every action (i.e. eating to grow or live). I suspect you're a vegitarian. Keep in mind plants are alive too.
As for deformed babies or any like-tragedy, if everything was perfect, we'd be complacent and not appreciate the joy that comes with the sorrow. We would be too reliant if all our needs were met and we would not grow and mature.
I think you need to see life as it really is. Get out and see the world. If you try to avoid trouble, how are you going to be prepared when trouble finds you?
To be honest, I'm not worried about antitheism (correct spelling, not mine). My concern is that people should conclude what faith (or lack of) they should follow by their own merits, not by the merits of other's actions, as I mentioned initially. If someone's going to follow a faith (even if it's antitheism), let it be a legitimate belief, not what the actions of others compelling someone to believe. We were given free will after all. It’s a contradiction to be, ‘content as you are’ when your contentment is influenced by the actions of complete strangers. Even if it's me.
-Todd Ponton