A higher law
In response to the Oct. 16 letter regarding the Catholic hierarchy by Patrick F.
Cipolla ("Catholic hierarchy embraces illegality"), I would like to say to him
that the church does indeed ask us to obey the law, but there are some laws that are higher than civil laws.
The law of God asks us to treat the stranger as our own. I cite Leviticus
19:33-34 and Matthew 25:40. There are many exhortations in Scripture to which
the archbishop and the good pastor at the Polish parish are following. Unless
Cipolla is a Native American, his ancestors were immigrants as well.
Alicia Ramirez, Denver
Alicia, when is the Vatican City going to take down the 60 foot wall that protects it from intruders and trespassers, in Italy? Also, does the Catholic hierarchy expect Catholic dictates and mandates to be followed and respected?
Posted by Ben on October 26, 2007 05:54 AMWhen will the Catholic church wake up the fact that American Christianity has demoted God to a mere henchman and Scripture as a menu. When it comes to illegal immigration, America demonstrates how the Word of God is much weaker than talk radio, pundits, campaign commercials, etc.
Posted by on October 26, 2007 06:33 AMAlicia,
Cipolla was wrong to write a letter castigating his pastor for offering Catholic ministry to illegal immigrants. You are wrong to castigate Cipolla as being unwelcoming to strangers.
Cipolla said nothing that can reasonably lead you to conclude that he is anti-immigrant. His complaint is about the fact that law breaking is being ignored - not that America attracts immigrants.
Your remark about his ancestors is unfounded, unnecessary and uncharitable.
For all we know Cipolla heeds the scripture and does in fact treat the stranger as his own. It may be that he also expects the stanger, and his own, to obey the law.
Many of us do.
Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God which is God's. Go to any other country in the wold, including Mexico, and tell the government about your higher law and how it allows you to break that country's laws then, pray to God you are not thrown in some feid jail or worse. Then, if you survive, come back here to the U.S. and tell us how you succeeded.
No people have the right to come into any country illegally and then demand that country change it's laws to suit their personal preferences and expect the taxpaying public to pay for everything you and your kids demand.
If your country treats you so bad don't come here bringing your problems with you, stay in your own country and fight for the changes that will make your life better. Or is it that you broke so many of your own country's laws that you can't live there anymore?
In any case don't expect a free ride from the people who had to fight and die to make this Country free and have fought and died to protect and defend that freedom, justice and liberty you covet. If you don't have the courage to fight and die for your own country's freedom.
We did not make these sacifices for you, we did it for ourselves. How dare you dishoner and insult this country and everyone who fought to keep it free in the process. Go home and fight , we don't want to hear your cowardly whining and bitching about what's wrong with us when you are the cause of the problems you bitch about.
Posted by Allen Campbell on October 26, 2007 07:33 AMShame on Jones for falsely accusing Alicia of castigating Cipolla.
The only statement Alicia directed at Cipolla is to say this:
"Unless Cipolla is a Native American, his ancestors were immigrants as well."
That is a simple statement of truth that applies to 99+% of us. Does Jones think there is something wrong with a person having ancestors who were immigrants? The statement applies to 99+% of us and I think most of us are proud of it.
Jones claims that saying that a person's ancestors were immigrants is unfounded, unnecessay, uncharitable.
What kind of nonsense is that? Is Jones somehow bigoted against people, such as himself, whose ancestors were immigrants?
Shame on Jones for falsely accusing Alicia of castigating Cipolla. Shame on Jones for claiming that there is something wrong with having ancestors who were immigrants.
Posted by Truth on October 26, 2007 07:51 AMShame? Who are you, my grandmother? Actually, you would have to be mesopotamien to be a true native.
Posted by on October 26, 2007 07:56 AMActually, "Native Americans" are immigrants as well.
So, I can be friendly to a stranger, at my choice. I choose to not be friendly to illegals.
Posted by Dravur on October 26, 2007 08:05 AMActully there are no Native Americans. Who was first to occupy North America is an impossiblity to determine. Who was first here?, who cares. Ancient History is not a judge of that because that history is a hotly unending argued about among antropologists, while many different peoples hotly argue they can claim that title.
Go back further and you may well find everyone on the planet immagrated from one place to another until they found an area that suited their purposes. Where does all this arguing lead us? Absolutely no where of any importance.
Posted by Allen Campbell on October 26, 2007 08:33 AMHigher laws? Thou shalt not covet...Thou shalt not Steal..Thou shalt not murder... Americans are being robbed and murdered by illegals. The law of the sojourner is to protect someone who is passing through. Illegal aliens are stealing resources and staying.
Separate your theology from your racism sister. It is Christian to willingly give out of charity and love. It is not Christian to steal from one and give to another, thats socialism.
Saint Paul encourages Christians in a foreign lands to adopt their customs to win them to the faith.
As a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values, we have been kind to our guests and they have robbed us. Time for the sojourners to go home.
Alicia,
I notice you and TRUTH never make a distinction between law breakers and legal immigrants. You people make me sick. No doubt you and your Mexican friends like being subsidized by the American taxpayer instead of staying and fixing your own country like we Americans did. Go back to your corrupt country. Seems like you people come here to commit crimes against us. Look at the news night after night. They ought to just shoot illegals! That would slow them down.
Alicia,
I notice you and TRUTH never make a distinction between law breakers and legal immigrants. You people make me sick. No doubt you and your Mexican friends like being subsidized by the American taxpayer instead of staying and fixing your own country like we Americans did. Go back to your corrupt country. Seems like you people come here to commit crimes against us. Look at the news night after night. You people respect no laws- never mind a higher law! They ought to just shoot illegals! That would slow them down.
Alicia,
I notice you and TRUTH never make a distinction between law breakers and legal immigrants. You people make me sick. No doubt you and your Mexican friends like being subsidized by the American taxpayer instead of staying and fixing your own country like we Americans did. Go back to your corrupt country. Seems like you people come here to commit crimes against us. Look at the news night after night. You people respect no laws- never mind a higher law! They ought to just shoot illegals! That would slow them down.
A higher law? You people respect no laws apparently. Alicia and Truth seem to forget the difference between illegal (lawbreakers) and legal immigrants. You don't mention you and your people taking advantage of the American taxpayer and our laws. You ought to go back to Mexico and straighten out your country like we did ours. No, it is easier to take advantage of Americans!
Posted by Joe America on October 26, 2007 11:57 AMA higher law? You people respect no laws apparently. Alicia and Truth seem to forget the difference between illegal (lawbreakers) and legal immigrants. You don't mention you and your people taking advantage of the American taxpayer and our laws. You ought to go back to Mexico and straighten out your country like we did ours. No, it is easier to take advantage of Americans!
Posted by Joe America on October 26, 2007 11:59 AMA higher law? You people respect no laws apparently. Alicia and Truth seem to forget the difference between illegal (lawbreakers) and legal immigrants. You don't mention you and your people taking advantage of the American taxpayer and our laws. You ought to go back to Mexico and straighten out your country like we did ours. No, it is easier to take advantage of Americans!
Posted by Joe America on October 26, 2007 12:00 PMAlicia,
Keep it up. Don't tell them you are an illegal. Just send your money back to Mexico. Keep committing crimes against Amercans and take their money. We don't obey any laws, we are Mexicans
Alicia,
Your letter makes me ashame to be A LEGAL immigrant. You are an embarrassment. These illegals are committing all kinds of crime here same as they did in Mexico.
I was born here, so I consider myself pretty native.
Posted by Dan on October 26, 2007 12:14 PMAlicia,
I not only heed my scripture but the last 11 years I have volunteered to help low-income and Seniors. I take no money from anyone. I served 36 years in the U.S. Air Force protecting this country that you people seem to ignore our laws and have shown no respect for any American except the ones that gives you things. It is all take and no giving when it comes to illegal Mexicans.
You seem to conveniently forget the difference between legal and illegal immigrants. My family were legal immigrants.
Quite a contrast.
Alicia is wrongly accused of castigating Cipolla by correctly stating that his ancestors were immigrants.
Let's look at a genuinely false, vitriolic and vicious castigation. It is in the above post by the a wild poster name Cipolla.
Wild man Cipolla says of Alicia that she has "no respect for any American except the ones that gives you things".
How big a dumb ass does Cipolla have to be to make such a slanderous claim? It is complete bullshit.
Cipolla freely recognizes, as he should, that all Alicia did was to make a true statement about him which in no way demeans or castigates him.
We don't get a whole lot of posts that are as civil as the one by Alicia. We do get a whole lot of posts that are malignant, such as the one from Cipolla. Cipolla's ability to think clearly leaves much to be desired.
Posted by Truth on October 26, 2007 01:15 PMIt would be great if there were more posts in the forum which were a civil as the one by Alicia?
And it would be even greater if there were fewer posts by the mentally ill people who have reached into the gutter in their attacks, not just on her post but upon her person, all by people who don't know who she is or what her life is about.
These people clearly have no integrity at all. They totally lack any sense of fairness or honesty. They are sick.
Jones accuuses Alicia of castigating when she says that Cipolla's ancestors were immigrants, something which he also says. How sick it that?
You want to see some real mindless castigation from some real scum:
Pedro: "Alicia, your letter makes me ashame to be A LEGAL immigrant. You are an embarrassment."
Vincente: "Alicia, Don't tell them you are an illegal."
Vincente: "Alicia, Keep it up. Don't tell them you are an illegal. Just send your money back to Mexico."
Vincente: "Keep committing crimes against Amercans and take their money. We don't obey any laws, we are Mexicans."
Joe America: "A higher law? You people respect no laws apparently."
Joe America: "You ought to go back to Mexico and straighten out your country like we did ours."
Joe America: "You don't mention you and your people taking advantage of the American taxpayer and our laws."
Joe America: "They ought to just shoot illegals!"
Joe America: "No doubt you and your Mexican friends like being subsidized by the American taxpayer instead of staying and fixing your own country like we Americans did."
Joe America: "Go back to your corrupt country."
Joe America: "Seems like you people come here to commit crimes against us."
Breeze: "Separate your theology from your racism sister."
Cipolla: "you people seem to ignore our laws and have shown no respect for any American except the ones that gives you things."
I'd like to know what sewer these excuses for human beings live in.
Most of the people who want something done to curb illegal immigration are intelligent and decent. Neither term applies to the low lives who posted the above.
Truth,
You never offer any solutions to this problem. i am curious to know what YOU would DO about illegal immigration ?
Truth is a socialist. He doesnt have an idea or arguement, he just calls names.
Posted by T on October 26, 2007 03:44 PMYou first, Fresh.
What other solutions have been offered by people with your view, including you, other than the totally unrealistic one of deporting all the twelve or whatever million illegal immigrants? Do you not think that there should be some feasibility to a solution if it is to be considered worthwhile? According to the various polls, those Americans, inlculding the Tom Tancredos, who do not support such a deportation greatly outnumber those who advocate it.
Incidentally, you are totally and ignorantly wrong to say I have never offered my thoughts as to solutions. You claim things are true when you have no idea whether they are true or not. Not nice. You should have more integrity than to do that sort of thing.
After you tell me what your thoughts are about a solution, I'll give you mine.
You first, Fresh.
What other solutions have been offered by people with your view, including you, other than the totally unrealistic one of deporting all the twelve or whatever million illegal immigrants? Do you not think that there should be some feasibility to a solution if it is to be considered worthwhile? According to the various polls, those Americans, inlculding the Tom Tancredos, who do not support such a deportation greatly outnumber those who advocate it.
Incidentally, you are totally and ignorantly wrong to say I have never offered my thoughts as to solutions. You claim things are true when you have no idea whether they are true or not. Not nice. You should have more integrity than to do that sort of thing.
After you tell me what your thoughts are about a solution, I'll give you mine.
You're funny, T. Stupid, but still funny.
Posted by Truth on October 26, 2007 04:55 PMpatrick cipolla
You and I are probably in general agreement on the immigration issue.
I think the first order of business is to stop the flow of illegal immigrants with the construction of the wall and whatever other measures are necessary. Once we have accomplished that, and when the political class gets on board we will, then the dynamic of the problem changes.
Then we can deal with the 10-20 million illegal immigrants most of whom are from Mexico. Some of these millions are decent people trying to flee the corruption of Mexico for a better life for themselves and their families. Others are riff-raff on the make for a handout. Others are sociopathic criminals.
The question of how we go about sorting out who's in which group becomes easier once the spigot has been turned off.
So we may be in general agreement on the question but, you were wrong to write your letter to the RMN. If you look at the result you will see the fruit.
We have Alicia wrongfully accusing you of being anti-immigrant and the attendant howling of jackals that frequent this page. I imagine there will be more of this same sort of thing. This is not the way to build harmony in the community.
As a conservative, I am frequently at odds with the Bishops over their temporal stands but let's be fair. The Priest does not work for ICE. It is not his reponsibilty to patrol the community and determine immigration status of individuals in the community. And even if he has good cause to be suspicious, he has a higher calling. When anyone shows up at the Church door seeking ministry, he has an obligation to respond irrespective of the secular requirements.
I don't know the details of your case but this much I have learned, there is no salvation is politics. I urge you to heed what I have said here, go speak with the Priest and continue to work to unify the community in Christ Jesus.
Posted by James Jones on October 27, 2007 06:58 AMJones apparently feels as though if he repeats this lie he has previously told it will somehow become less a lie.
"We have Alicia wrongfully accusing you of being anti-immigrant."
The only statement which Alicia made about Cipolla was this one:
"Unless Cipolla is a Native American, his ancestors were immigrants as well."
What I urge you to do, Jones, is to ask God to forgive you for lying about Alicia and then go forth and lie no more. Please heed what I say here for the sake of your eternal soul.
Posted by Truth on October 27, 2007 08:52 AMJones mentions the jackals on this thread. What he failed to mention is that he is the lead jackal.
Posted by Truth on October 27, 2007 09:29 AMBreeze got it wrong:
"As a nation founded on Judeo-Christian values, we have been kind to our guests and they have robbed us."
Your premise is faulty...
Posted by Charles B. on October 28, 2007 08:09 AMA higher law other than that generated by America's legislative bodies and judicial case law comes from a spoke in the wheel of shit creating stink so great, the mandate becomes that it be buried immediately after it is invoked. Mf Jesus the Christ is a spoke.
Deicide Corner: Tom Harpur, a former priest and New Testament professor at the University of Toronto , writes that “there is, in the extant Jewish literature of the first century, not a single authentic reference to the founder of Christianity…no contemporary nonChristian writer even knew of Jesus’ existence.” you will not find one history book
that gives an account of Jesus Christ. Don’t mention Josephus. An mf Christian scrivener inserted one paragraph into Jo's many volumes on Jewish history.