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LATEST LETTERS

An individual's right to life

Sunday, October 21 at 2:00 PM

Fr Jeremy Paulin OMV Holy Ghost Church writes:

Deroy Murdock ("Hilary, unmasked,” Oct. 9) brings to light the most important issue of our times – the issue of an individual’s right to life.
He didn’t touch on it directly, but nonetheless what he wrote points dramatically to it. He quotes Hilary Clinton as having said “We must stop thinking of the individual and start thinking about what is best for society.”
History has shown, (e.g. the terror of communism,) that when society or a culture sacrifices the individual, the person, for the sake of the whole, the individual and society both suffer horribly. Hilary is not alone in this attitude; politicians and people of every stripe have espoused this outlook.
This past Sunday afternoon I stood for an hour at the intersection of !4thand Broadway here in Denver with 75 people holding signs that read “Abortion is Murder.” A husband and father of a young family, also witnessing to the right to life, and seeing and hearing the violent reactions of many passers-by to this message, shared with me his wonder at how our society could have such a big blind spot; that is, how is it so many of us cannot see that what lives in a mother’s womb is a person, an individual?
If we hope to survive as a nation and as a world, we must begin respecting and upholding the right to life, especially for the most innocent and defenseless among us – i.e. for the unborn individual person. Life and death, by definition, always have individual and personal impact.

This letter has not been edited.

READER COMMENTS

Women have known how to abort since Biblical times. Funny there isn`t a specific commandment that says "thou shall not murder thy unborn baby in the womb".

But then men didn`t care about abortion back then, what a strange coincidence that the 11th commandment got left out.

Posted by Sharon B. on October 21, 2007 03:36 PM

See thats your problem. For many the belief that life begins at birth not at conception. This is a fundamental differance in opinion.

For some the idea that a soul is there in the womb at conception does not hold water. For others the soul is present at the time of hot to trott before the conceptual act.

I for one just do not believe life exists before the first breath. Untill someone can convince me other wise I will support choice.

Posted by on October 21, 2007 03:40 PM

Since Rowe-Wade there have been nearly 40 million abortions in America...about the same number of unidentified illegals we have roaming the streets and "doing jobs that Americans don't want."

Labor shortage?

Posted by Hank on October 21, 2007 04:06 PM

Someone with enough sack and few enough brain cells to call himself "father" said:

"History has shown...that when society or a culture sacrifices the individual, the person, for the sake of the whole, the individual and society both suffer horribly."

Yeah, like when the world banded together to defeat fascism, sacrificing life, limb, and in many cases, personal wealth. Boy that was terrible...

Posted by Charles B. on October 21, 2007 04:30 PM

Sharon,
Why do we need an 11th commandment? What part of thou shalt not kill do you not understand?

Anon at 3:40,
A fetus isn't "living," according to you because it's not breathing through it's nose. It is pumping blood and consuming oxygen through the umbilical cord. People are breathing through equipment in the hospital when their bodies aren't fully functioning. Are they not living too?

Posted by Gail K on October 21, 2007 04:55 PM

Fr J. - I get frustrated with smart, intellectual folks like yourself making dishonest arguments about abortion. How about this: pregnancies should follow the example Mary, the Mother of God. God, All-Powerful Ruler of the Universe, ASKS Mary if she will carry the baby. I also think God fully informed Mary of the consequences of His birth. God then recruits Joseph to join Mary in making a family. Both Mary and Joseph follow thru with the commitments they voluntarily made, with lots of help from their families and God.

We can only speculate on how many women God had asked before Mary, but declined becasue they felt they couldn't handle the task. There might have been some women that agreed, but 4 months into the pregnancy could not bear the burden and God terminates the pregnancy.

Pregnancy should be an intentional choice, no rapes, no accidents, no surprises, and NO GUILT. If a women changes her mind, for any reason, she should terminate the pregnancy. Women should NOT be breeders or baby making machines.

How about the Roman Catholic Church, instead of enslaving women and putting guilt burdens on everyone, getting back to the Mission of the Church: the offer of believing in Christ and receiving eternal life.

Posted by Dave on October 21, 2007 05:29 PM

Amen Dave! Believing Christ and living for Jesus is what it is about

Posted by on October 21, 2007 05:47 PM

As usual, pasionate argument concerning the "right to life" of a number of cells - in a petri dish, or passing down the fallopian tube on the way to - maybe(!) - attaching to the womb, or any other time before birth. Terrible! Just terrible! if lost.

BUT, the loss of men, women, and children in a "just war" . . . . ? Uh . . . well . . . er . . . That's just a part of the suffering that "god" - whichever one currently sitting on top in the Pantheon of Rome - wills for us anyway.

And what really constitutes a "just war"? Would you be referring to something such as Adolf Hitler's "solution to the vexing Jewish Problem", perhaps? After all, Hitler was placed in office through the efforts of Eugenio (later Pius XII) Pacelli, who as the Papal Ambassador to Germany engineered the Concordat that ordered the dissolution of the German Christian Democratic Party, in favor of Adolf's Nazis. And the Cardinal Archbishop of Cologne Celebrated the special Mass, with the Papal Blessing for the Nazi thugs who then went out and perpetrated Krystalnacht, the beginning of the Holocaust.

And, somehow, I don't see much "justice" in planned genocide; or in the wanton slaughter of what Pope Pacelli refered to as "undesirables" - i.e., Gypsies, Orthodox Christians and Clergy in the Balkans, and nearly 6 million others who were added to the number murdered in the death camps besides the Jews.

Oh! But of course! I forgot. So sorry, Father. Abortion is a "sin". Ethnic cleansing on the other hand wins Papal approval, by way of Cardinals' red hats, for Stepinac and Mindzenty; and that Papal approval, of course, is the sign that it is "just", and proper to Roman Religious faith.

And, whatever else we do, we mustn't commit "sin".

Posted by Old Grouch on October 21, 2007 05:57 PM

Gail, since we kill in war and capital punishment, which I think Jesus suffered from , and in self defense, killing is okay to situational ethics, sometimes.

The 11th commandment, meant only for the baby in the womb, would have undone all that stuff in Isaiah about how Gods people get to hack up pregnant women. And the one Psalms that you can look up in Landoverbaptist.com about bashing the heads of the little infidels on rocks.

I want a specific to the moment commandment that thou shall not kill baby in womb, for mother, invading Israelite etc. For everyone.

Don`t stretch kill (sometimes written as murder) to cover this. If God is so clear and covers everything, even how to wear your hair, and what garments to wear to temple, then surely this little oversight must be corrected.

I figure there were three things the tribal leaders did not cover when they were making up their God stories: Lesbians having sex for fun, women aborting babies, and birth control. Women lived in the women's quarters and men were ignorant of much of women's lives.

We had birth control, way back then, and the men never knew, but God did.

Yet no commandment.

Also so commandment against pre-marital sex and wife beating.

God needed at least three more to finish the job.

Now a female lead society would have commandments against beating, raping and cutting up of pregnant women even if they were infidels.

Shows you who wrote the Bible, if you only look.

Posted by Sharon B. on October 21, 2007 06:33 PM

"History has shown, (e.g. the terror of communism,) that when society or a culture sacrifices the individual, the person, for the sake of the whole, the individual and society both suffer horribly."

Clearly you've never seen "The Wrath of Khan".

Posted by The needs of the many... on October 22, 2007 06:24 AM

I wish I could get a bumper sticker that says: I am PRO ABORTION, a child should not be born to be raised in ignorance and want.

Sorry Dickens, I stold your words.

Posted by on October 22, 2007 06:54 AM

If Fr. Paulin, Deroy Murdock, and the "husband and father" mentioned in the letter sincerely want to reduce abortions, they might for once, instead of demonizing women as monsters who "murder their unborn children" (incidentally, calling fetuses "unborn children" makes as much sense as calling humans "undead corpses") for the sheer hell of it, address the "guy" culture, specifically the "notches on the bedpost" mentality that rewards and encourages the gender that doesn't get pregnant for their own sexual promiscuity. Instead of picketing Planned Parenthood, try visiting college campuses and discouraging the boys from bragging about all the "chicks" they're going to "nail." Work to change an age-old society that says that boys who "do it" are studs and girls who "do it" are bad.

Or else encourage the boys to do it with each other until they're ready for the responsibilities of fatherhood.

Posted by Hans Christian Brando on October 22, 2007 07:46 AM

Fr. Paulin, When your church quits coddling and hiding illegal aliens intruding upon American society, I might take a strong look at your views. Until your church quits breaking American law---- you and your brethren have no credibility a far as I'm concerned!!!!

Posted by on October 22, 2007 07:55 AM

Father Paulin does Hillary Clinton a disservice by failing to recognize the context in which she made that statement. She was not talking about abortion but rather about responsibility, not just to oneself but to society. Father Paulin's Catholic Church has often spoken of the evils of individualism.

From Pope John Paul:

"Individualism presupposes a use of freedom in which the subject does what he wants, in which he himself is the one to 'establish the truth' of whatever he finds pleasing or useful. He does not want to 'give' to another on the basis of truth; he does not want to become a 'sincere gift.' Individualism thus remains egocentric and selfish...the foundation of ethical utilitarianism is the continual quest for 'maximum' happiness. But this is a 'utilitarian happiness,' seen only as pleasure, as immediate gratification for the exclusive benefit of the individual, apart from or opposed to the objective demands of the true good. This program of utilitarianism, based on an individualistic understanding of freedom–a freedom without responsibilities–is the opposite of love"

And:

"Without a renewed education in solidarity, an overemphasis of equality can give rise to an individualism in which each one claims his own rights without wishing to be answerable for the common good."

Posted by Truth on October 22, 2007 08:14 AM

Sharon,

Every comandment you want is summarized by Christ in Mark 12,

"The Great Commandment"
(English Standard Version)
28 And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the most important of all?" 29Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' 31 The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." 32And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. 33And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And after that no one dared to ask him any more questions.

Posted by Gail K on October 22, 2007 08:51 AM

I chatted with those mf (wretches: despicable, evil) Catholic Christians who only they are going to heaven telling several that the fetus is a parasite: a life form living off the life form, all life forms are intended to eat or be eaten and all life forms share one equality.

They carry a sign that says abortion causes breast cancer because lactation is interrupted and I asked what of those women who deliver and choose not to breast feed. I went on line and found only one site affirming what they said and the site came from prolifers like themselves.

A pedophile priest enjoyed my allegation that Adam married his daughter Eve as she came from his flesh and blood and even bone with Jesus Christ coming to earth in the form of Jehovah to be assisted in his suicide. These cherry picker mf (wretches)(dictionary.com) are America's Taliban convinced life is sacred. A human life form no greater worth than a cockroach. The deadly virus called god exists only in the human brain bringing forth atrocities.

Deicide Corner: If you run on family values, your values and your family will be subject to scrutiny. ~~ Anna Quindlen

Posted by Richard Grimes Deicide r22037@yahoo.com on October 22, 2007 10:31 AM

Abortion Statistics for the United States:

1,287,000 abortions per year. 3,526 abortions per day. 147 abortions per hour.

1 abortion every 24 seconds.

Abortions from 1973-2006 (using the 2003 estimate for 2004-2006): 47,187,000.
Source: Guttmacher Institute.

Posted by Gail K on October 22, 2007 10:47 AM

Imagine if this ignorant lugnut and his 75 cretinous followers had spent that hour actually helping some of the thousands of real abused & neglected kids in Denver - instead of standing there with a piece of cardboard.. But, wait, it's the Catholic church we're talking about - so never mind.

Posted by drew on October 22, 2007 10:48 AM

Gail K.

You must understand that when dealing with immoral Godless people like Sharon B., drew, Richard Grimes and the the rest of these bloodthirsty monsters and the rest refuse to acknowlege absoule right and wrong so it frees them up to do dabble in the grey areas.

Just as the communists and and the Nazi's did. The Jews lost 6 million in the holocaust and as your figures show that was nothing compared to the new holocaust against the most innocent of all humanity. The unborn.

These two groups have killed 150 million people in the just the first 50 years of the 20th century than they claim pseudo Christians have in than a thousands years.
Most of these people are homosexuals, and Sharon has to be a feminist man hating lesbian. They are also God hating atheists for one self serving reason or another.
Trying to convince or convert these evil people is a waste of time since they do know God"s Word but choose to ignore and mock it, they are already condemed.

The are all fools and don't waste your time.
Just shake the dust off of your sandals and don't cast anymore Pearls before these Swine. I know I will not argue the truth with these lost souls. Whats the point?

Posted by on October 22, 2007 11:34 AM

RG and Sharon B -

No more "pearls" are going to be cast at us "bloodthirsty monsters." The righteous have spoken! We'll have to break the bleak news at our "feminist man hating lesbian/homosexual support group" - woe is me! Woe is us! Dabblers in grey areas!

Posted by drew on October 22, 2007 11:50 AM

Drew, FMHLH is not pronounceable. And it will look lousy on the front of a t-shirt.

Gail, that question they asked Jesus, he answered not with a commandment, but with the much older Golden Rule.

Missed that huh?

Too bad your God, who covered all the minutia of daily living, even down to not mixing meat and milk in the same dish, did not think enough of women to say specifically: Thou shall not rape little girls or women.

Think about it Gail, really think. Rape is the only sex specific harm a person can do to another. Women can not rape.

Only men can weaponize their genitals.

Now back to abortion. Work for education and massive birth control programs. Put some time and money into preventing unwanted pregnancies and stop doing just what makes you feel good about yourselves.

Oh how self righteous are the constant complainers who do nothing to help the problem.

Mentor a young person, talk to them about sexual responsibility. Get involved in some way.

Posted by Sharon B. on October 22, 2007 12:20 PM

One who uses the word "fool" is hell-bound, says Jesus' fan club, the gospels, Paul and 24 others along with those dudes* not included in the NT. Take note: God himself says in Isaiah 45:7 he created evil, according to his fan club: mf /wretches: despicable evil humans. dictionary.com

Deicide Corner: *Fathers of the Christian church founded cultural sexism by insisting that Eve’s disobedience brought death and all other evils into the world. Men could have lived forever, they said, if Eve had not tempted Adam. Now all Eve’s female descendants should suffer to pay for this primordial crime. Tertullian said to woman, “The sentence of God on this sex of your lives in this age; the guilt must of necessity live too. You are the devil’s gateway,”

Posted by Richard Grimes, Deicide r22037@yahoo.com on October 22, 2007 12:42 PM

Whoooooeeee!

Ain't heerd no sermons sich as thet thar one since ol Billy Sunday done quit tha sawdust trail, an tha grand ol Revival Show last pitched a tent down by tha stockyards. Shore nuff done reminded me o' them thar good ol days when awhoopin', ahollerin', an abellerin' war tha tha way tha preacher got figgered fer tha size o tha kerleksun basket. Tha more noise, tha bigger tha take.

Yep! Them war tha days. An tha stockyards done had thar place in em, too. Special when thet thar wind war ablowin' tha right way.on a preachin evenin', Sorta hard ta figger which war tha stronger, tha wind offen tha pulpit er offen tha cattle pens. Thet thar a-nony-moose feller thar, offen 11:34 AM, woulda had a right fair place in tha competition, pears ta me.

Preachers and cow pies! Shore nuff! Them war the good ol days fer real.

Posted by Old Grouch on October 22, 2007 12:42 PM

Fr. Paulin

I am not a Catholic and given the un-Christian like behaviour and history of the Catholic Church on up to the present with the cover up of the sex abuse of countless children by the clergy that probably goes on up to the hierarchy and probably including some of the popes, you have lost your credibitlty as Christians even when you are stating the truth about Hillary Clinton and her evil stances on human life.

She is no different than the communists she emulates in who shall live and who should die. Her view is "Quality"of life and opposed to the Sanctity of life. She is in lock step with some of the vile ilk posting here their lies and sick rationalizions for commiting murder.

Hillary may not perform the actual act of abortion as do the fiends that pose as doctors, but her hands are just a blood stained and as are those who support this evil act.

These fools who vote for the Hillary Clintons of the world will one day find themselves old or sick and she will tell them your "Quality" of life is not up to my standards and as another of her ilk Govenor Richard Lamm said it's your duty to die. Of course that could never happen in America.

Thats what the Jews said about the land that produced Bach, Mozart and Beethoven.

Posted by on October 22, 2007 01:08 PM

Anon male at 1:08 it is true that abortion is a unique situation, in no other case is the existence of one person, totally dependant upon another's will.

Only in this one instance can we discuss the life of one person completely at the discretion of another.

That means we should discuss any possible way to cut down on unwanted pregnancies, not focus on what happens after implantation.

Education, birth control, morning after pills, all these can cut the amount of abortions but I see nothing in the pro-birthers posts about prevention except control of the women.

What would you all do to help women prevent unwanted pregnancies. I really would like a list of things from you.

What are your thoughts on prevention.

I will be pro-choice, and help any woman or gilrl to get an abortion, I also will help any women or girl to keep her baby, so I show compassion both ways.

Can you match that.?

Posted by Sharon B. on October 22, 2007 01:24 PM

The Catholic Church causes more abortions than any oher institution on earth with its medieval stance against birth control. When you read a lecture on morality from the like of Paulin, remember the blood on their evil hypocritical hands.

Posted by on October 22, 2007 01:55 PM

October 22, 2007 01:08 PM is James Jones

Posted by on October 22, 2007 02:14 PM

I cannot believe the some of the luducrious excuses and expanations people are using to defend Hillary Clinton and justify killing a child in the womb. Talk about diabolical how nonchalant their comments roll off of their fingertips. You'd think sparks were flying off of them also.
It's amazing how far down that slippery slope some people have fallen. Of course nothing surprises or shocks me concerning the right to life anymore since the Democratic party was hijacked by these immoral groups of people passing themselves as human beings almost 40 tears ago.

Their twisted posts are like looking into the mind of a sociopath. No moral responsibility or social conscience. To see evil manifest itself in the minds of these people in this manner is truly frightening and is reminiscent of the rise of Stalin and Hitler.

The sad thing is they are so far gone they think it is some sort of a joke and that their responses somehow are hurting or infuriating people who know the truth.
In reality we know them better than they know themselves and can't help but to feel pity for them.

Posted by on October 22, 2007 02:38 PM

Yep! Them thar preachers and cow pies shore nuff do go tagither! Starts with thet thar 11:34 AM a-nony-moose, an keeps on agoin all tha way thru 02:38 PM a-nony-moose; an most likely still ain't come ta airy end. Long-winded ol cuss, ain't he?

Shore is fun ta read them thar self- made holy phoney blaoneys atellin everone else bout how bad, evil, an sinful tother folks air. Funny thang bout thet thar way o lookin, tho. Seems as ifn they done fergot tha good book asayin sumpin bout judgin an abein judged. Waal, guess thet thar wind's still ablowin offen the pulpit an tha cattle pens, same as usual. Only them as air in tha pulpit jest don't seem ta notice there's nary difference in what goes out ta them as air abein preached at.

Posted by Old Grouch on October 22, 2007 03:34 PM

Hey it's OG alias Gabby Hayes in a haze and a daze. Poor old fool. What's an atheist gonna do when confronted with the truth.? Ramble on like the Tumbling Tumbleweed.

Posted by Howdy Partner on October 22, 2007 03:45 PM

Anon male at 2:38 what is your suggestion to lower the amount of unwanted pregnancies?

What would you change to help these women?

What ideas do you have?

Posted by Sharon B. on October 22, 2007 03:57 PM

I suspect that many pro-birth people are incapable of discussing this issue with any real suggestions or ideas.

This is because they suffer from the neurotic idea that they are responsible for the millions of aborted humans they call babies or little children.

This unhealthy state of mind reduces their arguments to invective and insults.

Not one on this forum has presented an idea of how to deal with unwanted pregnancies.

More community support would help these women and girls, but it is not coming from the pro-birthers.

Those are not your embryos and you have little or nothing to day with or to do with them.

Most of you are into control of women, especially if you think those women are not Christians.

Your day ended years ago, but the battle to fight your attempts goes on for each generation of women.

Posted by Sharon B. on October 22, 2007 07:04 PM

Hey OG, SB, CB, and the rest of this unified force of truth bearers.

You should get together in a meaningful protest that would speak volumes to the hypocritical psuedo-Christian masses.

How about sewing your lips shut and going on an extended hunger strike/silence vow until the Lord returns and decides the whole thing for us.

Posted by skeptical on October 22, 2007 07:27 PM

Skeptical, you first.

After posting reasoned questions, this is all we get from you and all the anon males. Not one viable suggestion from the neurotic members of the Church of the Holy Embryo.

After being called names and insulted it is my profound pleasure to tell you all one thing: Speculum for do-it-yourself abortions.

This is one of the few times I have allowed myself to sink to your level of insult posting and by Goddess, it feels good.

Skeptical, sew all four of your lips shut. Let Jesus open them for you some century.

Posted by Sharon B. on October 22, 2007 07:41 PM

yuk.

Posted by skeptical on October 22, 2007 08:02 PM

skeppy the clown asked:

"How about sewing your lips shut and going on an extended hunger strike/silence vow until the Lord returns and decides the whole thing for us."

I'm not a superstitious idiot who believes in ghosts and magic, so how about I don't?

The kind of behavior you suggest is reserved for people who actually believe the garbage you preach and believe.

Posted by Charles B. on October 23, 2007 08:02 AM

Charles B. this is my first post where someone suggested I commit suicide. Now they want us dead, wow!

Posted by Sharon B. on October 23, 2007 12:11 PM

mf Jesus Christ was assisted in his suicide; if it is good enough for him, why should I not mimic him; if Sharon goes, I go with her.

Deicide Corner: St. Jerome insisted that it was a sin for a man to love his wife passionately. As late as 1976, Pope Paul VI ruled that masturbation is a sin so heinous that god will never again love such a sinner.

Posted by RG r22037@yahoo.com on October 23, 2007 12:38 PM

Sharon B,
>>>>>>>>Oh how self righteous are the constant complainers who do nothing to help the problem.

Mentor a young person, talk to them about sexual responsibility. Get involved in some way.

Posted by Sharon B. on October 22, 2007 12:20 PM

_______________________

How presumptuous you are! You have no idea what people do to lend a hand and help, to prevent pregnancies, etc. Please step back from the lecturn. I will not be informed or instructed by YOU what to do! And don't come back with some excuse that you aren't only addressing ME in this!

Posted by Gail K on October 23, 2007 02:09 PM

OK, what do you do to help, lend a hand & prevent pregnancies, Gail K? Judging by your self-righteous response you must do something?...well?

Posted by on October 23, 2007 02:30 PM

Anon at 02:30, why are you afraid to provide a name? Not that it matters, most people here make up something.

I wasn't "self-righteous." I was responding to someone who was self-righteous.

My point was that the answer has been available since the beginning of time for anyone who really wants it. Most don't care. The godless, me-first, do-what-I-want, feel-good, everybody-does-it, peer pressure society rules.

Try helping here:
http://www.bridgewayhomes.org/index.html

or pass this on to young people:
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-sum/sum-f001.html

Just a couple of things to help. Donate or get involved.

Posted by Gail K on October 23, 2007 02:52 PM

Gail, married women have abortions, or do they not count? Women get date raped, young girls are impregnated by their fathers, brothers, uncles etc. And girls want love, they are too immature to know sex isn`t love and boys and men use them.

Seems the "do what feels good group" is mostly men, young girls usually don`t even like sex, since young men are so inexperienced.

Since mother nature made us highly sexual creatures, ready to reproduce at 12 or 13, why do you think our early sexual desires come from godless outsiders or peer pressure.

You`r still pissed at me for pointing out that your God, Jehovah, didn`t think enough of women to make a commandment specifically against rape.

do you support birth control for young unmarried or married people if they are going to be intimate.

Yes or no, please don`t equivocate here, just answer the question.

And listing organizations says nothing about you.

Since I would help a young girl have, keep her baby and not give it away, I think I am probably a kinder person than you.

But maybe not.

Posted by Sharon B. on October 23, 2007 06:41 PM

Sharon >>>>>> "Since I would help a young girl have, keep her baby and not give it away, I think I am probably a kinder person than you."

--------------------------

Wow! You are way too presumptuous Sharon! Why do you think I wouldn't do this? Have you not looked at some of the things I support?

I have young daughters, 18 and 21. When they were barely old enough to care (maybe 10 or 11) I told them It's best to wait until marriage for sexual intercourse so they would not suffer the consequences that premarital sex often brings. The Creator made laws for good reasons, not to be a meanie.

Later, when they were teens, I told them they can be blessed with the very best sex (based on my experience, and I don't want to elaborate on my past) by waiting until marriage. I emphasized that if they were to ever become pregnant, however, since I'm very aware of human weakness in the face of sensual impulses, I would be there to help them raise the child. I said that two wrongs (sex followed by abortion) do not make a right.

Now, back to your God problem. He answers your questions, but are you listening? If everybody honored Him there would be no date rape, incest, etc.

It sounds like you want me to offer solutions. When there are so many who resist simply listening to the Creator, the chances of them turning around to follow Him are very slim. People have resisted since Cain.

Posted by Gail K on October 23, 2007 07:06 PM

Gail, see you got off track there calling normal sexual desire a human weakness. Having been raised in a home where we raised show dogs, I pretty much learned how sexuality works and why.

Now God, Mother Nature or Evolution made us highly sexual creatures with puberty determined by your creator, not by the child's sexual impulses.

Since you see normal sexual desire at a very early age, I personally was about 12 when mine kicked in, as a human failing ;or fault, there will never be an area of human sexuality we can discuss.

You are fudging the question of "My God Problem" when I say there should have been one sex specific commandment against rape of young girl infidels, slaves etc, all the young ones that Jehovah's chosen folks were allowed to rape, especially after they had killed the parents, destroyed their homes, and taken them into slavery, for their own use, I believe is the Biblical wording.

Right there in the first book it says, about the little girls not killed in looting the town, you may take them home, those little ones who have not known a man, for your own use.

Now sugar I have no God problem, and I did not make this personal but I really don`t care what fairy tales you told your girls about married sex, but as they grow older they may learn you were giving them your opinions, not facts.

And by the way, there is no commandment against pre-marital sex. None at all. Another God oversight.?

And you failed to answer the questions about birth control and married women who have abortions.

I direct my posts to everyone who wants to discuss, but I will not be the first to say "What Part of (fill in the blank) do you not understand".

Do that and its a catfight.

Posted by Sharon B. on October 23, 2007 08:17 PM

I will do my best Sharon, to communicate without a catfight.

Sharon >>>> "And by the way, there is no commandment against pre-marital sex. None at all. Another God oversight.?

And you failed to answer the questions about birth control and married women who have abortions."

---
God's law against adultery addresses sex outside of marriage. Later, as Christ in the New Testament, He tells us to love one another as He loves us. His "Great Commandment" means to love God and all others. This would mean do not sin against Him or others. I'm sorry, but I can't make it any simpler than that. Why do you insist on another commandment? It's already there!

Why would a married woman have an abortion? I ask this with all sincerity, because I haven't heard of it myself. Unless she's been unfaithful to her husband and wants to avoid a problem with him. In a case like that, I do not see any humane, compassionate reason for an abortion - destroy a human life to save a marriage? I don't get it.

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Sharon >>>>>> "Right there in the first book it says, about the little girls not killed in looting the town, you may take them home, those little ones who have not known a man, for your own use."

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I've been trying for a long time tonight to find what you're referring to without luck. Can you tell me where, "in the first book" this is so I can read the full context?

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Sharon >>>>> 'I really don`t care what fairy tales you told your girls.."

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I will not challenge you to prove that my faith is based on fairy tales. We are two individuals who have made decisions regarding the Creator and faith according to a variety of circumstances and influences throughout our lives. My children have come through many developmental stages already, and will arrive at their own conclusions according to their personal circumstances and influences as well. They are not by any means indentical to me, far from it. I would not expect them to be. As any other adult in my life, they are both just as much an influence on me. You insult me by insinuating that I have not grown past my dogma.

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Sharon > "Having been raised in a home where we raised show dogs, I pretty much learned how sexuality works and why."

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When I was a little girl, my cat had kittens. I also got to go to Grandpa's farm, and boy did I see little babies! I loved caring for the orphaned calf at my Uncle's farm too. As a teenager, I bred my mare and produced a beautiful appaloosa stud colt. I later had the vet come to geld him. Sex is no mystery to Christians. I resent being stereotyped as much as the next guy Sharon.

What breed of show dogs did you raise? I've been involved in the obedience ring, a long time ago. I now have two dogs. One is a miniature dachshund I bought from a recognized breeder as a "pet" because I didn't want to give my business to puppy mills or pet stores. She's a daughter of AKC champions. My other is a GSD mix., who has my favor in other ways.

Posted by Gail K on October 23, 2007 10:39 PM

Gail, you have moxey, I knew it. We raised Cocker spaniels and I lived in Morrison. Windcrest kennels. Too long ago, you were not even born then. I always wanted to have a service dog, but none were smart enough.

After Moses and Aaron finished raiding towns they didn`t know what to do with all the loot. It is in one of the first 4 books, the books attributed to Moses. Where they are told who to kill and who to spare.

I hope your family continues to make you happy, one of my grandsons is in southern California and has had to evacuate some of his friends.

`Nite

Posted by Sharon B. on October 24, 2007 02:05 AM

What's "moxey?"

I hope your grandson's doing okay in all the wildfires.

Posted by Gail K on October 24, 2007 09:45 AM

Sharon, thanks. I looked it up...
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Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1)

mox·ie
–noun Slang.
1. vigor; verve; pep.
2. courage and aggressiveness; nerve.
3. skill; know-how.
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WordNet

noun
fortitude and determination

Posted by Gail K on October 24, 2007 10:55 AM

Gail, I was afraid I misspelled it. My spell check is limited it seems.

Grandson not able to work, getting off days with pay. But his home is okay so far. Thanks.

Posted by Sharon B. on October 24, 2007 11:58 AM

Charles B

Boo!

Posted by skeptical on October 24, 2007 10:23 PM