Boulder students “walk-out demonstration”
I felt compelled to write regarding the “walk-out demonstration” of a handful of students who left classes during school hours, to protest the recitation of the pledge of allegiance, especially in regard to Principal Jenkins not punishing these children for willfully and blatantly committing truancy. Maybe instead of letting these kids off the hook with no punishment, Principal Jenkins could instead hold a special class for these students to teach them a history and constitutional lesson.
First of all, the naivete of the students, especially young Miss Martens, who evidently should have been attending civics and history classes, instead of so incorrectly stating the inclusion of “under God” is in violation of “separation of church and state.” One needs only review the Supreme Court cases Abington v. Schempp 1963, Marsh v. Chambers 1983, Lynch v. Donnelly 1984, Wallace v. Jaffree 1985, Allegheny County v. ACLU 1989, and Lee v. Weisman 1992 to understand the precedent the Court has recognized in the use of the words “under God” not being in violation of the establishment clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution.
Secondly, I would ask the question of Miss Martens, and her fellow protesters to describe exactly, in their opinion, what religion the phrase “under God” is attempting to establish? Would it be Christianity? If the answer is yes, than what sect? Catholicism? Or maybe Baptist? No? Must be Lutheran, or Episcopal, or maybe it’s not even a sect of Christianity, but Judaism. See the problem here Miss Martens? Finally, Colorado law does indeed require that the Pledge of Allegiance be recited to begin the school day. However, the Supreme Court ruled in 1943 in West Virginia State Board of Education v. Barnette that no one could be compelled to recite the pledge. Seems to me at least, these “kids” should use the school day to learn about the topic they obviously do not understand, instead of protesting.
This letter has not been edited.
So the kids should be punished for truancy during a pledge that mentions the Judaeo-Christian God Jehovah? The rest of the day, maybe, but not the class with the pledge.
That is the essence of the argument in the letter.
And while the cute use of Christian religions sects is clever, we all know this is Jehova and not the Moon Goddess, in the pledge.
Colorado law should not require the pledge. It should be a God free zone in school.
Bully for these kids.
Posted by Sharon B. on October 6, 2007 02:20 PMHi Sharon,
I've always recited the Pledge of Allegiance as it was taught to me - a pledge to the flag and to my country. That's my CIVIL allegiance. It's very simple, just don't bother with the inserted words. Use the original.
Get God OUT of Civil Government!
Keep God OUT of Civil Government|!
Posted by Old Grouch on October 6, 2007 02:30 PMUno,
What week does your welfare check arrive? I guess the only people who work, fight for this country or are allowed to speak out are Republics right Uno? After all if we had no Dem's what a beautiful place this would be right? Shouldn't we just round up these Boulder people and fence them in and re-educate them to think and feel the (right ) way!!!
Posted by Karl Cheney on October 6, 2007 03:56 PMKarl, try to be funny? Ha, ha. Dems have the welfare check (and associated fraud) business cornered long time ago. And, yes it would be a lot more desirable place to live in without you Dem left wing trash (elected by trash like you) leaders. The Boulder people are already fenced in and re-educated thanks to the schools there. Being brainwashed by Boulder schools have nothing to do with free thinking, it’s just plain stupid.
Posted by Uno on October 6, 2007 04:11 PMAttack of the Longmont redneck Retardlicans!! When is RickyLee going to join you, Uno? And hurry it up and go to hell already, 'kay sweetums?
Posted by Dos on October 6, 2007 04:27 PMUno,
You've said it all, and divided we fall, no longer is this the USA of a united people but more division than I've seen in my lifetime.. With a straight face you can talk about Dem's and fraud with the fiasco in Iraq. There is more fraud going on under this administraton than at any other time in US history, and of course to speak up against it and the reigious right is treason and anti American. I believe the opposite. Speaking up about what you believe in is what this country is about. I find it interesting how often I see people like you and An American, Keith etc calling Americans names constantly if they disagree with you. You are pretty brave on these blogs but would love to see one of you call me these names to my face.. I know education is scary to people like you because educated healthy people are harder to fool and don't buy into the fear mongering and propoganda.
Posted by Karl Cheney on October 6, 2007 04:39 PMDivided we are!! Whose plan is it to divide us and why? What person, party, or organiztion would benefit??
I mean"United We Stand Divided We Fall"
Is someone organizing the demise of the U.S. as we know it? If anyone has the answer fill me in I wanna know!!
Posted by A on October 6, 2007 05:03 PMKarl,
I will call any left wing liberal trash no matter what country they live in, I don’t discriminate, you should know that by now. And, like I said a gazillion times, if you guys believe that this administration is so fraudulent and broke so many laws, then it’s time to clean house, go do something about it, not just flapping off your mouth for nothing in a newpaper post.
So, leftie, go hug your criminals, druggies, and terrorists, and beat up some rightwingers who just don’t like trash, have fun. And just for your info, education does not automatically equal being right. There are countless examples of that, your hero Ward Churchill is one of them.
Corporate America and Politicians win with division,
Power is gained and obtained through division, if we are too busy fighting amongst ourselves to recognize that our entire US treasury is being given away to support the supposed war on terror no one will put an end to it. Calling half of America traitors and US haters for wanting to end the occupation of Iraq mantains the status quo. If the entire US population came together and said "enough" we could make change and get rid of the poweful handing out the checks, however if you use scare tactics associate with patriotism and propoganda that we should be afraid of another attack many will but into it. Just like Fox news stating that a certain % of Americans want the terrorists to win. Now that is propoganda, no American wants the terrorists to win but the phrasing of the questions can be mis interpretated. We aren't really fighting a war on terrorism in Iraq, we are gaining control over the oil fields there for future strategic reasons, We are building embassy's and bases there so we will never leave. But if the American people thought there was no threat they would want to get out. So big oil would lose. Socialized medicine is the same thing, if we were really healthy and cared for at a reasonable cost to all citizens pharmacuetical companies would lose billions, so we have to have that socialized medicine is bad and you would never get care, we have to be divided on these issues or change would happen. Division keeps those in power powerful. Without it the people who are united have the power and that is scary to the corporations and politicians. Divided people have no power! It's all about the money , follow the money and you get the answers. More money, more power, more power more money. More division means less resistance.
Posted by Karl Cheney on October 6, 2007 05:32 PMUno,
You are a great example of my recent post, you brush with a broad stroke so there is no room for anything but that what you believe to be right. I have many friends that are conservative and we agree on many issues as well as disagree, but I would never dismiss them. I vote for and believe in those things that are best for the US as a nation, not just for a tax break or what is best for me. I believe that is what seperates us...
Posted by Karl Cheney on October 6, 2007 05:40 PM"fence them in and re-educate them to think and feel the (right ) way!!!"
Have we really already reached this level of socialism in this country? I guess what they say about those who cannot learn from history is true. Is it a bad sign that this sort of tolerance training is the first thing(at least postwise) that comes to Karl's head?
Posted by on October 6, 2007 05:45 PM5:45,
I think you missed the sarcasm in the post.
Posted by Karl Cheney on October 6, 2007 05:50 PMKids walking out because of the pledge of allegiance to the United States of America. How typical of Boulder students. That whole town is so anti-america and anti-military it's unbelievable they can even function. Nice way to raise your kids. Our troops are over seas fighting to protect our country and these dumbass kids have no clue what's going on.
Posted by on October 6, 2007 07:02 PMWhen the days get shorter in October, people get real snippy, yes they do.
Posted by Sharon B. on October 6, 2007 07:22 PMGrowing from a teen into a well adjusted adult means testing limits and questioning authority. Bravo to the school for allowing students to find their voice. While some (most?) will disagree with their message, the important thing is that they are being given room to learn to think for themselves.
Considering that no one was injured, no property damaged and hopefully no one was emotionally scarred by the demonstration, I'd say it was more positive than negative.
Posted by Michael R on October 6, 2007 08:01 PMAw heck,guys.They're just kids.It's just Boulder.
Posted by Jimminy on October 6, 2007 08:03 PMwhy wuld you ever think that this is truancy. These are people expressiong their opnion. I personally do not like the phrase "and to the republic for which it stands" because it makes me feel as if, when i say it that the goverment has all rights over me. To me it says that i agree with everything that the goverment does, which i sure don't.
Posted by JoeBob on October 6, 2007 08:58 PMI see post by idiot karl ,then og ,drew ,sharon b.,where do these idiots come from.This is scary,How much dope did there parents do,these village idiots are allowed to vote and screw up this country,look what they did by voting the fu--ing idiot clinton.
Posted by Keith on October 6, 2007 08:58 PMI see post by idiot karl ,then og ,drew ,sharon b.,where do these idiots come from.This is scary,How much dope did there parents do,these village idiots are allowed to vote and screw up this country,look what they did by voting the fu--ing idiot clinton.
Posted by Keith on October 6, 2007 08:58 PMI see post by idiot karl ,then og ,drew ,sharon b.,where do these idiots come from.This is scary,How much dope did there parents do,these village idiots are allowed to vote and screw up this country,look what they did by voting the fu--ing idiot clinton.
Posted by Keith on October 6, 2007 08:58 PMI see post by idiot karl ,then og ,drew ,sharon b.,where do these idiots come from.This is scary,How much dope did there parents do,these village idiots are allowed to vote and screw up this country,look what they did by voting the fu--ing idiot clinton.
Posted by Keith on October 6, 2007 08:58 PMI see post by idiot karl ,then og ,drew ,sharon b.,where do these idiots come from.This is scary,How much dope did there parents do,these village idiots are allowed to vote and screw up this country,look what they did by voting the fu--ing idiot clinton.
Posted by Keith on October 6, 2007 08:58 PMwhy wuld you ever think that this is truancy. These are people expressiong their opnion. I personally do not like the phrase "and to the republic for which it stands" because it makes me feel as if, when i say it that the goverment has all rights over me. To me it says that i agree with everything that the goverment does, which i sure don't.
Posted by JoeBob on October 6, 2007 09:00 PMDan Dane asked in a long winded and ill-lettered fashion (seriously, I hate it when people say they would ask why not just ask?):
"I would ask the question of Miss Martens, and her fellow protesters to describe exactly, in their opinion, what religion the phrase “under God” is attempting to establish? Would it be Christianity?"
"Irrationalism?
Posted by Charles B. on October 6, 2007 09:30 PMUno:
You're a good little fascist: Comfortable in packs and willing to believe convenient lies, you're easily lured into psychopathic tendencies by people much more intelligent than you. You make a great mark for those without conscience.
You're also very afraid and you feel quite powerless, which is why you lash out so irrationally when you know there will be no consequences.
I imagine that in real life your bravado is as muted as your emotional development.
Posted by Charles B. on October 6, 2007 09:46 PMThese smarmy little libs to be should not be encouraged but properly disciplined for their little walkout.
Why would you want to send the message that breaking the rules is acceptable?
What happens when these kids take this attitude in their adult lives?
They become America hating Democrats,thats what.
Charles B,
It is a very small percentage of people, across all demographic stratas,including religious people of trust, that sexually abuse innocents while they were young.Most of these victims are intelligent enough to not generalize and set their life mission to discredit a whole segment of the population.
It is obvious you were violated as a youngster but you must stop with your stereotypical all religions are bad blabber.
Grow up already and deal with your own personal demons privately.
It is apparent professional help should have been sought years ago.
THE TRUTH HURTS BUT IS THERAPUTIC
Uno, you idiot!
Posted by Rick on October 6, 2007 10:33 PM"Divided we are!! Whose plan is it to divide us and why? What person, party, or organiztion would benefit??
I mean"United We Stand Divided We Fall"
Is someone organizing the demise of the U.S. as we know it? If anyone has the answer fill me in I wanna know!!
Posted by A on October 6, 2007 05:03 PM"
Liberals, the ACLU, Ward Churchill, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Bill and Hillary Clinton, Algore, ...
Want more???
Posted by clyde on October 6, 2007 11:31 PMSharon, days don’t get any shorter or longer, still 24 hrs.
Karl, “so there is no room for anything but that what you believe to be right.” – I don’t get your point. Why should I agree to anything I believe it to be wrong?
Charles B, you remind me of that furry little animal which puffs up when feel threatened. You lash out at people with your pathetic analysis, which fits more your self than anyone else in this post. And as usual, you had very little to contribute to the conversation of the original letter’s content. Are you that terrified deep down that may be there is a higher power in the universe, and you are wrong, and you try to camouflage that fear by lashing out at everybody else? Sure looks that way.
Rick, straight to the point, I like that. Why bother explaining your self. Fits the “Blood for oil” left wing trash crowd mentality.
The pledge of allegiance simply can not be construed by anyone to be an attempt to establish a religion.
However, kicking g-d out of schools in general is an attempt to prohibit the free exercise of religion by students and is unconstitutional by the 1st Amendment..
Growing up does include testing authority and finding limits. It also involves taking responsibility for one's actions, learning to disagree constructively and not destructively, letting those you disagree with win on unimportant issues, choosing battles wisely, and joining with the rest of the world to create a better one.
Complaining, name-calling, and objecting is easy. Finding solutions, meeting others halfway, and eliminating useless strife should be what our schools try to inculcate.
A religious Christian or Moslem who is forbidden to engage in what THEY consider crucial religious behavior in public schools will choose other educational alternatives and support them at the expense of public schools. If they believe the other students hostile to believers, they will leave sooner.
Posted by Yaakov Watkins on October 7, 2007 01:07 AMthey all walked out to have sharon b show them how to masturbate while using drugs. its their civic duty to learn these things, after all it is the republic of boulder.
Posted by on October 7, 2007 06:14 AMIs it any wonder that Boulder is the state's home of racial beatings, football/sex scandals, and plagiarist fake Indians who continue to teach at CU even after being fired? After all, these incidents are just kids "testing limits and questioning authority.", so why not turn a blind eye?
Posted by on October 7, 2007 08:57 AMHere is an example of kids “learning” in the class room liberal style.
And you wonder why I call the left “trash”.
http://www.click2houston.com/news/14284329/detail.html
Posted by Uno on October 7, 2007 09:04 AMDoes uno describe the number of brain cells possessed by that poster? If so then apparently that's all one needs to absorb and regurgitate every wingnut blathering point ever devised.And you'd think Keith with its self-proclaimed vise-like grasp of "facts" would have grasped the fact that the commenting mechanism here is slow, but generally only really needs one press of the post button combined with some patience.
You'd think that with the oft- expressed fear of "socialism" or "communism" seen here that those readers would be pleased that these students would not seem to be likely candidates for the Komsomal or the HJ.
Of course the Democrats want to take God out of everything.All communists know they need to do this to bring in the system they want.Just like the Democrats want to disarm the citizens.The communists did the same thing.This is why Patrick,Charles B.,Carl Cheney,Sharon B., and Old Grouch are in the 20% of Democrats that think it would be better if the terrorists win the war in Iraq,according to a new Fox News poll.These Democrats [communists] believe that anything that weakens the US is good because it will help them usher in their new system [Communism].
Posted by An American on October 7, 2007 10:53 AMKarl Cheney sounds real tough in his posting when he says he would dare us to call him a name to his face.First of all I am not calling you names I am using words to describe what you guys are like cowards,US haters etc.We need tough guys like Karl in the pro-gun movement.I have been fighting for the right of "every citizen" to own a gun for 20 years.I bet I can count on a tough ,brave guy like Karl Cheney to join the NRA. or is he one of those Democrats that are afraid to have citizens armed because he is fearful of being shot.Come on Karl step up to the plate.
Posted by An American on October 7, 2007 11:19 AMUnder God was not in the original pledge. It was under the Eisenhower administration that it was added and by no means was it meant to establish any religion, rather it was taken from the words, in god we trust , on the money you use every day. If you don't like that then send me your money, after all you wouldn't want to keep money around you with a phrase on it that you hate, or does that change things a bit in your idiot minds.
Posted by Allen Campbell on October 7, 2007 11:27 AMUno, funny, that`s twice you got me.
Anon male at 6:14. What`s with all the whimpy men who can`t remember their names?
Uno, those kids having sex are not part of what "liberals teach" any more then the boy who brought a gun to the after hours bible study was "conservative teaching." Remember that boy? How do you explain a bible carrying, gun toting boy as a liberal? But I bet you will try.
I would like to see all kids say "one nation under the Goddess, and watch how long that would be allowed. I suspect the pledge would be cancelled quickly.
If teachers hear other Gods names, say Allah or Ra, they would stop this nonsense and use the kids new pledge.
That one makes sense. And it means something more then the old one.
Anon male 8:57. Now you are confusing college and high school kids in Boulder.
Posted by Sharon B. on October 7, 2007 11:31 AMMy sweet Uno,
The Constiturion is a sacred document that you obviously have never read, or don't understand. Ms Martens and her fellow protesters, on the other hand understand it perfectly. Your calling American citizens "trash" isn't going to help your case.
Ms. Martens understands that the "under God' was inserted into our pledge in 1955 by radical right-wingnuts that wanted to instill fear into Americans because the "Godless Commies" were on our doorstep, and those same types are at it again, only this time using Islam as the boogieman.
Uno, you and your and fellow fascists like AA, Keeeeeth, et al, havent a clue that you've been used.
To use Keeeths favorate phrase... "idiots" like you have made it possible for the beginning of the end for the U.S.A.
An example is Colorado Springs, that has grown exponentially since WW II due to the paranoia of right-wingers, and the "welfare" given to war profiteers that have called C.S. home since they hollowed out Cheyenne mountain to be "safe" from those "Godless " commies ( And to hell with the rest of us?)
Well, it turns out they were wrong, and we've wasted trillions of dollars that could have made our counrty even greater, but instead our country is literally falling apart and our children , like Uno, have sub-standard educations and can only parrot what Herr Bush and his corporare ilk have spoon-fed them.
Thanks a lot , you sorry "little piggies".
You've gone and destroyed our country by allowing the Wal-Mart of the war/fearmongers to run it. ( the neo-cons)
You always get what you pay for, and you've paid for endless war.
Posted by dmz on October 7, 2007 12:11 PM
Yaakov,
Mandatory recitation of the pledge by the teacher (as the agent of the government) at the front of the class uses the coercive power of the state to establish:
1) God exists
2) Our nation is under him
These are religious assertions that are not removed by allowing the students to decline participation, and have nothing to do with anyone's "free practice."
As for divisiveness, isn't that the point of religion?
My god's (gods) bigger than yours?
Posted by Science Guy on October 7, 2007 12:13 PM"As for divisiveness, isn't that the point of religion?"
No...redemption before our Creator and salvation is...
Posted by on October 7, 2007 01:26 PMNo principle fought for -- just typical modern day attention whores.
Posted by on October 7, 2007 01:44 PMI Pledge allegiance to my flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stand one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Rev. Belamy
Okay! How would you feel if someone stole your brain baby? Congress, at the goading of Christians, changed "my" to "the" and added "under God" ~~~ I would be miffed. Therefore "under God" means the "jew" sired from the "loins of David" when he raped the 13-year-old virgin betrothed to Joseph. What a king wants a king gets.
Deicide Corner: “. . . so far from entrenching human conduct within the gentle barriers of peace and love, religion has ever been, and now is, the deepest source of contentions, wars, persecutions for conscience sake, angry words, angry feelings, backbitings, slanders, suspicions, false judgments, evil interpretations, unwise, unjust, injurious, inconsistent actions. . . .” -- Frances Wright, freethinker
Posted by Richard Grimes, deicide. Free cassette of blasphemous songs: Me on Piano on October 7, 2007 01:47 PMDmz, you big smooch, you may be stunned to find out that I did glance at the Constitution a couple of times. And in there, there is something about Congress shall make no law. Now, knowing that there is only one Congress on federal level, one could assume that it means no nationwide established religion is allowed, unlike places like the UK and Sweden. Add free exercise thereof, and the picture becomes clearer. Believe whatever religion you want, where you want, as long as it doesn’t violate other laws. And that’s why we have “In God We Trust” on every coin and paper money, and crosses in Arlington.
I am agnostic (skeptic, whatever), so I have no stake in advertising God in one form or another, but if I see a group of people unjustly come under fire, I’ll have something to say about it. Christians, the way I see it, is such a group right now. There are millions of them in this country alone. For the bad things a few do, and quickly highlighted in the media, there are millions who does good daily, from helping the poor, healthcare (why do you think some of the best hospitals are named after saints?), and the rejection of obviously self-destructing life styles. And that’s where large portion of the disagreement is.
And that’s why I said earlier that trying to remove God from public schools is a misplaced priority.
This is where Sharon comes into the picture;
“Uno, those kids having sex are not part of what "liberals teach"”, yes it is, and we talked about his before. When you tell kids in a Boulder high school to feel free to experiment with whatever form of sex and drug use (it’s on tape!) your little heart desires to me is a far higher priority to deal with. I’ve provided links to news reports of what it leads to, just in the last week or so. I don’t have to search back years just to find an example, it’s there all too frequent. And who pays the price? Kids and taxpayers. Funny you mentioned Allah. I’d recommend you watch the movie called “Inside 9/11” by National Geographic.
I, JVB, confess theft. RG has stolen from me and now I steal from him. If Congressional thieves with their spectacular delusion can compel Americans with their diverse delusions of their own deity to pay homage to their god, (what about atheists and agnostics?) I can steal from RG and recycle his post with the original Pledge: (and Keith is saying, "get your facts, you village idiot, dumb ass" as he sits in the tree kissing Hank, says another poster from whom I steal)
I Pledge allegiance to my flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stand one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all. Rev. Belamy
Okay! How would you feel if someone stole your brain baby? Congress, at the goading of Christians, changed "my" to "the" and added "under God" ~~~ I would be miffed. Therefore "under God" means the "jew" sired from the "loins of David" when he raped the 13-year-old virgin betrothed to Joseph. What a king wants a king gets.
Deicide Corner: “. . . so far from entrenching human conduct within the gentle barriers of peace and love, religion has ever been, and now is, the deepest source of contentions, wars, persecutions for conscience sake, angry words, angry feelings, backbitings, slanders, suspicions, false judgments, evil interpretations, unwise, unjust, injurious, inconsistent actions. . . .” -- Frances Wright, freethinker
Posted by JVB on October 7, 2007 02:04 PMUno, who told the kids in Boulder.? Teachers, principals etc.?
That is not liberal teaching. And yes we had this discussion, and you are a stubborn one. But try again. Teachers lead the pledge, teachers are "the school" the school is publicly funded, no God period in the pledge. Not your God, not mine, not any God. Got it this time.?
someone comes to talk to school kids, you call that liberal teaching. A teacher leads the pledge, you don`t acknowledge that this is conservative teaching.
Switch every thing you say around, and you will finally be right.
Kids having sex in public is kids having sex. Period. That is not liberal or conservative teaching any more then kids hitting each other or damaging school property.
Posted by Sharon B. on October 7, 2007 04:28 PMUno's impotent rage must cause his fat weak body to shake while he craps himself again and again.
Posted by on October 7, 2007 05:05 PMBreezing through some of the responses here, I was caught by one idiot (though,I'm sure there are more) who stated that the poor shleps doing Bushies work over in Iraq are 'fighting to protect' american freedom.
Okay... forget the stupid pledge of allegiance argument for a moment (yes, I'm breaking my own rule) and let's talk facts: They are not now, nor have they EVER been there to protect this country. They are there for personal and business reasons that have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING whatsoever to do with 'freedom' for Americans or 'safety'... for ANYONE.
Where did you get your disinformation?
Funny thread...heh
Posted by Charles B. on October 7, 2007 09:51 PMUno said with his usual flair for misrepresentation of facts:
"And as usual, you had very little to contribute to the conversation of the original letter’s content."
I guess he didn't notice how I quoted the original letter and answered the query found within as best I knew how.
But his feelings were obviously hurt, so I guess I can forgive him his transgression... (guffaw).
Posted by Charles B. on October 7, 2007 09:57 PMI know i'm getting into the discussion late but there were a couple of post's by "An American" that I got a chuckle out of.
One was a poll by Fox News the showed 20% percent of Democrats want the terrorists to win the war in Iraq. Isn't believing a poll by Fox New's a lot like believing in the three headed baby from outer space in the National Enquire?
The second was the 20 year fight he's be engaged in to see that every citizen has the right to own a gun. I don't claim to be an expert on gun laws but don't we already have that right?
Posted by leftside on October 7, 2007 10:10 PMyes leftside you are correct, a Fox news poll will be slanted one way just as a CNN, ABC, NBC or CBS poll will be slanted the other. Who cares what Fox or any of the others say in their "polls" as they all have an agenda when conducting them to derive a predetermined conclusion that fits in nicely with their agendas.
Posted by Jack Bauer on October 8, 2007 07:53 AMWhy don't we encourage Al Qeada to use Boulder as the next target practice.
Then we will see all the wimps in Boulder praying to God.
Posted by on October 8, 2007 08:44 AM08:44 AM, anonymous,
Much simpler solution: Recite the original Pledge of Allegiance. Or, if you happen to be someone who simply does not believe it is necessary to engage in a public recitation of anything, stand mute.
Posted by Old Grouch on October 8, 2007 10:30 AMThe only reason I sited the Fox News poll is to show what we already know.Just read the postings of the Democrats here and you will see there are a lot of them that want the terrorist to win.Leftside is just a stupid Democrat.The only reason we do have the right to own firearms is because of people like me fighting the fight.If the Democrat party had their way guns would be banned.Let me educate Leftside.The Democrats have tried to sue gun manufactures out of busines,banned semi-auto firearms,in big cities that they control like DC you can't own a handgun,in Denver the Democrats banned semi-auto firearms,there is much,much more that I do not have time to explain now.Also Bill Clintons' administration went to court and said the Second Amendment does not protect the right of a citizen to own a firearm.The Democrat controlled government in DC is going to court right now saying the Second Amendment is not a right of the citizen to own a firearm.So Leftside I know you are a little slow but do you understand now if it were not for people like me the Democrats would take away the Right to Keep and Bear Arms.
Common opinion here from the get God out of the schools group is the kids are exercising their rights by protesting. That it's ok to disobey school rules and not be punished if you're standing up for something you believe in.
Isn't that what the girl did in her grad speech when she mentioned Jesus as her inspiration and urged others to get to know Him?
But these anti-God people have repeated many times that she broke school rules and should be punished? If so, then why not punish these boulder kids?
The only difference between the two is one wants God out, the other wants God in.
Posted by KW on October 8, 2007 12:18 PMBTW - In my opinion, neither should be punished for speaking up about something they believe in.
Posted by KW on October 8, 2007 12:22 PMAn American,
First of all let me thank you for calling me a stupid democrat. This seems to be your standard comment those whose opinion differs from yours and thankfully you and I differ.
Secondly, don't try to soft soap your Fox news comment. You as addicted to it as the 'fat washer women is addicted to her National Enquire. That comes through loud a clear in your postings. No substance, just bullying rants.
Third, "the democrats are trying to take our guns" became old a long time ago and was never correct. That garbage is put by the NRA who is heavily endorsed by the gun manufacture's who in turn give lot's-o-money to the Republican party. See the pattern. You are correct however in the sense that the Democrats want to controll the type of guns that citizens may own. You see AA, we just don't think it's necessary or prudent for citizens to be driving around in the SUV's with 50 calibur machine guns bolted to the roof.
Posted by leftside on October 8, 2007 12:52 PM
Everyone should be commanded to take a loyality oath everyday. Start with the pledge then an oath to King George then one to your employer. trust no one suspect everyone. I am in favor of bringing back the 50s and Sen. McCarthy. Abandon all of the Bill of rights as well. If no one is guilty than no one has anything to hide and doesnt need rights.
Posted by conservatives rule on October 8, 2007 12:52 PMKW,
In the first place, it came down to the Valedictorian at least apparently attempting to deliberately deceive the School authorities concerning what she intended to say. She submitted a speech for review, which was approved.
We have never really learned what the contents of that speech were/are; and do have to take that as a given, on the word of the authorities.
But, with that as a given then: She departed - very deliberately and very "far out" - from the speech approved. For this, the Principal acted - or over-reacted, depending on your own view of the seriousness of the matter - and all the foofaraw began.
However much there be a reaction - or even an over-reaction - on the part of those responding to the actions of the Boulder kids, the action was direct, and not something that can be called "devious", or "underhanded". That's the difference between the incidents.
And there is already far too much reaction to both.
Posted by Old Grouch on October 8, 2007 01:04 PM"I Pledge allegiance to my flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stand one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." Rev. Belamy
Posted by RG/OG are a team on this one: Recite the Original Pledge telling the thieves to take a hike. on October 8, 2007 01:32 PMI Agree OG, far too much reaction already.
Although I see both events equal as far as breaking the rules. Overtly or not, rules are rules. We shouldn't have school officials picking and choosing which rules they deem necessary to enforce and on whom they deem enforcement necessary. Equal application, right?
BTW - You had some half way intelligent thoughts on this thread. ;~)
Keep up the good work ol' chum!
Posted by KW on October 9, 2007 09:55 AMLeftside is dumber than even I could imagine.Nobody is pushing for the right of citizens to have 50 caliber machine guns bolted to the roof of their cars.He says that the cry that Democrats are trying to take our guns away was "never correct"There is a mountain of facts that show he is wrong.I have been dealing with this issue for 20 and when I started I was A Democrat.His statement about the NRA borders on insanity.He says that the NRA puts out information that the Democrats are trying to take our guns away because the gun industry gives money to the Republican party.The gun industry backs the Republican party because the Democrats are trying to put the gun industry out of business.Leftside you have proven 2 things by your last posting one you really are stupid and two we can see why the left dose not understand why we are in Iraq.
Posted by An American on October 9, 2007 12:02 PMKW,
I argued strongly that punishing the valedictorian was appropriate and I think you are right about the Boulder kids too. I don’t know what the normal punishment would be for leaving for a few minutes in the middle of class is, but if their actions violated the rules they should have to deal with the consequences. Consequences should be dealt out evenly.
Personally, I agree with Science Guy, that the phrase under god does promote once religion over another, and promotion is a form of establishment. I also think civil disobedience can be a useful tactic in demonstrating. However, often the powerful message that civil disobedience demonstrates (think Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. here) often comes from the public making the connection that a rule is unjust when they see people accepting the consequences for their actions. Often those in civil disobedience demonstrations insist on facing the consequences of their actions because breaking a rule does not on its own highlight a break down in the rule of law well. Accepting the unjust (if they turn out to be so) consequences of a bad rule or law is what makes the point. Accepting the consequence of your actions also grants a better moral foundation from which to highlight the issue.
Wow, people still coming back to this...
I find it comical that of those that addressed the topic, at issue is the lack of understanding of the Constitution, as well as the Court opinions that uphold the Constitution.
Just because you don't like or agree with something (or someone for that matter), doesn't mean it is wrong or incorrect.
Websters first definition of "God" is: the one Supreme Being, the creator and ruler of the universe.
Without ANY Religious meaning, God, can indeed be used, without a Religious reference. It is not the use of a word that is unconstitutional, it is the PROMOTION of one RELIGION BY THE GOVERNMENT, over another, that is unconstitutional. The pledge does no such thing, neither did the inclusion of "the Creator" in the Declaration of Independence, nor is "In God We Trust," a promotion of one religion over another.
I encourage you all to read the Court decisions referenced in the letter. Maybe, just maybe, if you get out of your own way, you just may learn the difference between "separation of Church and State," and "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of Religion..." Based on the responses in this post though, probably not...
Posted by Dan2 on October 9, 2007 03:31 PM