Columbus Day parade embarrassment
This letter has not been edited.
Richard Ellian,
It is another example of the liberals forgetting about one of the freedoms granted in the Constitution. You remember that one, freedom to assembly. It is kind of like the 'freedom of speech" issue the liberals believe that only covers them and not any one who speaks out against them.
Posted by jgd777 on October 30, 2007 02:33 PMUh oh, R. Ellian your gonna get it now!! The (Anti Everything but what we dictate crowd) will make try and make toast out of you. Watch out! Here they come!
Posted by A on October 30, 2007 02:37 PMYou know Richard one of the reasons Italian-Americans were the second most lynched ethnic group in the early 20th Century was the stereotype of organized crime.
That is one of the reasons Italians wanted a day to celebrate.
So why don't you take your prejudice and go join Means and the rest of the bigots?
Posted by Italian on October 30, 2007 03:11 PMBravo, Italian, Bravo!
And while you're at it Ellian, why not go to church on St. Patrick's Day instead of gettin' stinkin' drunk?
Posted by Irish on October 30, 2007 03:47 PMI have a dream, that one day people like Richard will be an extinct breed!
Posted by MLK on October 30, 2007 04:02 PMWhy to go MLK. I guess you want to join Richard and Means over in bigotland.
An extinct breed? Wow, you really are over the top.
Posted by Italian on October 30, 2007 05:01 PMI have a dream too, that one day these so called minority groups stop being so bigoted and racists. Past wrongs from long ago on any group don’t give that group the right to carry on with the same hatred they accuse other groups of. Let the Italians celebrate in peace.
Posted by Uno on October 30, 2007 06:40 PMGet used to it ..it's every year.
Posted by on October 30, 2007 07:27 PMMy ancestry is German. May I should have a nazi parade to salute all my German relatives who died in Germany.
Posted by rick on October 30, 2007 08:34 PMI would be embarrassed to admit I had watched Fux News
Posted by GEO on October 30, 2007 08:37 PMAnd another thing. Wasn't he a criminal?
Posted by rick on October 30, 2007 08:45 PMGEO I would be embarrassed to be so closed minded not to look at all angles. Keep the binders on dude. Oblivious looks good on you
Posted by on October 30, 2007 08:45 PMHey rick thankyou for proving Godwin's Law: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one." There is a tradition in many groups that, once this occurs, that thread is over, and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically lost whatever argument was in progress. Godwin's Law thus practically guarantees the existence of an upper bound on thread length in those groups.
- The Jargon File (http://www.ccil.org/jargon/)
Sorry rick Game Over!
Posted by D on October 30, 2007 08:56 PMPast wrongs from long ago? Perhaps the genocide of American Indians is long over with, but the government to this day continues to violate every single treaty ever signed with native peoples.
Not to mention that there must be a better person in Italian history than a mass murderer who discovered an already discovered land for a nation not named Italy.
Posted by Kyle on October 30, 2007 08:58 PMD,
But I'm proud of my ancestry. Just like the murderer Columbus fanatics.
How many march in his parade? A few hundred?
You people are so funny.
Don't you realize that Means, Morris and AIM have succeeded in preserving Columbus Day?
Ten years ago Columbus Day was on its last legs. I'm not even sure if it was a bank holiday. The parades were small no one even got the day off work. No one cared.
Then Means and Morris started publicizing and promoting Columbus Day forgetting the primary rule of Public Relations "There is no such thing as bad publicity just spell my name right."
What Russell Means, Glenn Morris and AIM did was save Columbus Day from oblivion.
As Nelson Muntz might say: "Ha Ha."
Posted by Italian on October 30, 2007 09:08 PMThe following from Wikipedia's entry on lynching might help to explain why Italians latched onto Columbus Day.
"While the vast majority of lynchings were of blacks, during the 1800s and early 20th century, Italian-Americans were the second most common target of lynchings. On March 14, 1891, eleven Italian-Americans were lynched in New Orleans after a jury found them not guilty in the case of the murder of a New Orleans police chief David Hennessy. The eleven were falsely accused of being associated with the Mafia. This incident was the largest mass lynching in U.S. history. Lynchings of Italian-Americans occurred mostly in the South but also occurred in New York, Pennsylvania, and Colorado.
From the turn of the century until WWII Italian-Americans were vilified by many anti-immigration advocates. Columbus was simply a famous Italian who mainstream Americans could respect. Celebrating Columbus Day was an attempt to both show pride but also to stave off the hatred of the anti-immigration zealots of the early 20th Century. People like Richard Ellian show that many Americans still harbor animosity towards Italians even today.
Myself and my Italian family never cared much for Columbus Day. Colorado Italians seem to be more focused on the holiday than Italians in Chicago, New York or San Francisco. Perhaps because it is a much smaller community.
Personally, I don't care one way or another. Columbus was a Mercenary from Genoa who sailed for Spain 400 years before there was an Italy.
Nonetheless I understand the origins of the holiday. Decades before Americans could celebrate immigrants or anything that was different, Americans were able to celebrate Columbus and by extension Italians.
And for those who want to end Columbus Day your best tactic would be to ignore it. It had almost disappeared when you resurected it.
Posted by Italian on October 30, 2007 09:25 PMWell, lucky for the Italians we still live (for the time being) in a free country. If liberals had their way government would dictate what limited PC occasions people could celebrate.
Posted by Uno on October 30, 2007 10:26 PMHey Uno, I know you conservatives all walk in lock step, we liberals however, do not.
I am so far left I feel that FDR saved capitalism.
Conservatives can be overly PC in there own way just as liberals can–I think the Dixie Chicks can attest to that.
This really is not a liberal-conservative issue. But thanks for trying to make it one. I knew somebody would.
Posted by Italian on October 30, 2007 10:51 PMFake Indians and clueless white college kids throwing a fit about a man that has been dead for 500 years. Classic stupidity. Classic.
How do you like our yearly freak show America?
Posted by truthy on October 31, 2007 06:16 AMChange it from Columbus Day to Da Vinci Day, or Michaleangelo Day, or Roman Day ( since much of what we have today is based on Roman Law and culture) and let the Italians celebrate their heritage. Afterall any broken laws or atrocities Columbus 'may have' committed were done in the name of the Spanish Empire not Italy.
Hmmmmm considering the enslavement and annilihation of the Aztecs, Incas and Mayans maybe the native Americans should start protesting all of the Hispanic holidays?
snort, slobber duh its the libyurals. grggle.
Posted by on October 31, 2007 07:17 AMThe leason of history is that we forget the leasons of history but, that does not mean we have to dwell on that history to the detriment of todays issues. Those that do dwell on history would be wise to get their facts straight, then forget not forget that the people in those times did not and could not even begin to think as we do today. Trying to apply todays understanding to history is comparing apples and oranges, There are no similarities between people's thinking today and the thinking of people in histrirical times. The reasons should be obvious.
Posted by Allen Campbell on October 31, 2007 08:29 AMHistorical I meant, though maybe hysterical would be more accurate.
Posted by Allen Campbell on October 31, 2007 08:34 AMItalian 9:08 p.m. - excellent point. Thanks for a post with a common-sense approach.
Uno 10:26 p.m. - Yes, it's pretty stupid that a group of professional troublemakers are trying to interrupt a holiday parade that doesn't really mean much to people otherwise. But, as Italian 10:51 p.m. pointed out, it's not really a liberal/conservative issue.
HOWEVER, since you 'went there,' as the kids say, I find it pretty ironic that the day I read your sentence about liberals dictating what we can celebrate is today, Halloween. There is a movement afoot (documented by this paper recently) to ban Halloween celebrations in schools. Who's behind that? Hint: not the liberal boogeyman. More like religious conservatives. Yes, them folk have NO thoughts on what we should and shouldn't celebrate, do they?
Why do the Italians isist on celebrating Columbus Day in the United States. He landed in San Salvador in the Carribean, not on these shores. He did that with Spanish money, Ships and The best Spanish Captains and crews in all of Spain and of Europe at that time. All he did was take credit for a blunder. All of the places that were discovered are named by Spanish or Indian names. Amerigo Vespucci was an Italian merchant , explorer that explored the east coast of South America in 1499 and 1502 In 1507 Martin Waldseemuller produced aworld map and named the new continent America after Vespucci's first name. So big deal. The guy was in love with Vespucci's name.
The Paisans need to start just celebrating San Roccos Day or Italian Pride Day. I guess celebrating Columbus day makes them feel more entitled to be here than the rest of the immigrants.
On the other side of the coin Russel Means and his renegade band of trouble makers and the Indian wannabes like Ward Churchill need to quit whinning about the past and get a life.
Italian,
"I'm so far left I feel that FDR saved capitalism"
That was hilarious! Keep up the good work... You just made my day.
My wife is Italian and Irish. From New Jersey. Both sides of her family are connected.
Stereotypes they may be, but as the old saying goes... If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it must be a duck! As shows, books, and movies continue to not only promote the stereotype of the east coast mafia, (Irish or Italian), but capitalize on the reality of La Cosa Nostra, it's historical significance in American culture, and our continued fascination of organized crime, I can't in good conscience agree with you that a reference to the Mafia is racist. Ignorant maybe, but the reality of it really is Americans love the Mob, and almost automatically associate Italians with that life style. That is what they know, from TV (The Sopranos), movies (Godfather, Goodfellas, etc), and even our Presidential candidates (Giuliani became famous for his prosecution of the NY Mafia when he was US Attorney for the southern district of New York). You really can't call someone a racist, or even a bigot if the only reference to those of Italian heritage is the Mafia.
Posted by Dan2 on October 31, 2007 01:45 PMBased on right to assemble and speech, the Columbus day parades should be allowed.
However, I question the intelligence of those who actually agree with and support doing so. Despite the disparaging remarks about mentioning Hitler, the comparison here is entirely apt. While Hitler had greater scope, Columbus managed to accomplish something he couldn't- the complete extinction of another race (the Tainos). Columbus was so brutal, even for the time, that a monk (Bartolome) condemned him. Further, his mission and crews weren't Italian, but Spanish. Lastly, he didn't even land in the "real" Americas. So, if I were an Italian American, I'd be pretty ashamed if the best I could come up with was a bumbling, credit-stealing genocidal maniac.
That said, even though I obviously don't agree with Columbus day, AIM and Morris aren't helping the issue. Not only are they wrong in trying to supress a constitutional right, but they keep the issue inflamed. They'd be better off lobbying to have it removed as a federal holiday, since the justification can be made for that.
Posted by fiesty on October 31, 2007 02:55 PMWhat's next...a parade to celebrate the genocide in Darfur?
Posted by jay on October 31, 2007 04:35 PMHey Italian, “Hey Uno, I know you conservatives all walk in lock step, we liberals however, do not. “ – do you have an example of that, what issue do you agree on with conservatives? Also, a liberal city (also sanctuary) like Denver will not enforce the laws against the group who unlawfully disrupted the parade. This is going on year after year. Why? I think it’s political, and that’s what makes it a liberal-conservative issue. Also it is usually liberals who revise history and compare it to today’s’ standards. Mass murderer, how bout that. And the founding fathers had slaves, so you gonna get rid of 4th of July?
Jeff, “I find it pretty ironic that the day I read your sentence about liberals dictating what we can celebrate is today, Halloween. There is a movement afoot (documented by this paper recently) to ban Halloween celebrations in schools. Who's behind that? Hint: not the liberal boogeyman.” – You mean Kohl elementary school, principal and liberal Cindy Kaier? Because poor kids can’t afford costumes? What is that have to do with conservatives? Jeff, are you really that dumb, or just pretending for laughs? Cindy banned Halloween, not “religious conservatives.”.
Rick, “May I should have a nazi parade to salute all my German relatives who died in Germany.” – polish up on your grammar son, and yes in this country you can.
Okay Uno,
I will try to use words with only one syllable.
We liberals do not walk in lock step with each other.
Haven't you ever heard of the Democratic Circular Firing Squad?
Obviously, I disagree with those who oppose Columbus Day. I do not feel it is an issue worth getting worked up about.
Actually I think Columbus Day and issues like it are diversions away from more important issues.
I know conservative rhetoric is devoted to painting all liberals as the same as the most outrageous amongst us.
Well two can play at that game.
Would you like to compare all liberals to Wade Churchill? (As an aside I think he is a joke who deserved to be fired.)
Well if you want to liken all liberals to Wade Churchill then I am free to liken all conservatives to Fred Phelps.
You probably want to liken me with Hugo Chavez. Okay that is fine so long as I can liken you to Larry Craig.
As for rewriting history? If you studied history you would understand that it is always being looked at with fresh eyes.
Now, before you get into some long screed about cultural relativism I say conservatives are the most guilty of cultural relativism.
I think holding slaves is wrong and I think it has always been wrong. If something is morally wrong today then it is was morally wrong yesterday.
Saying that Washington and Jefferson (and I am afraid Franklin too) should be forgiven because they were products of their time is akin to saying that Caligula was just misunderstood. Being slave holders was a part of their character. It was not all of their character but it was a part. Let us not forget that anti-slavery tracts had been published in England as early as 1769. Not including this aspect to these very complex men is the real rewriting of history.
Murder is wrong. In Al Capone's Chicago murder was acceptable. Even knowing that murder was considered acceptable to his peers I still think he was scum. By your logic he should be forgiven his sins and hailed as a community leader.
So you tell me, who is guilty of Cultural Relativism?
Jay, if they you want a Nazi parade you can as long as you do it lawfully; I can recall the KKK having rallies in Denver (lawfully) Means and his followers should protest without disrupting the event.
Whether they should call it Columbus Day parade or something else is up to whoever is presenting the event.
Sorry, it was Rick not Jay; whoops
Posted by brain on October 31, 2007 10:29 PMTake out "they"; must be getting late!
Posted by brain on October 31, 2007 10:32 PMItalian, “By your logic he should be forgiven his sins and hailed as a community leader.” – no, by my logic people has a constitutional right to have a parade to celebrate without intimidation and physical threat. You believe that Columbus was a mass murderer. I believe that first and foremost Columbus was a discoverer of a new world. I also believe that if it weren’t for Europeans, the US would be just an other third world country and not an advanced superpower with today’s wealth and technology. Ward Churchill was (and now back in the classroom) a professor who claims that genocide is going on today, and some of you liberals agree with him.
“You probably want to liken me with Hugo Chavez.” – I didn’t, but I have no doubt that you agree with Hugo on many things.
"yes in this country you can"
Doesn't mean you SHOULD
Posted by fiesty on November 1, 2007 02:51 PM