Greater Anglican Church
The first request was dodged with a statement, “Oh, we don’t ‘authorize’ them.” But they occur openly with newspaper announcements, etc. Bill Clinton sadly hid behind the definition of “is”. Bishops should not. To the second, they promised to “exercise restraint” in this regard. Gene Robinson, the homosexual bishop from New Hampshire has already declared that this language in no way prevents the election of a lesbian who is currently a candidate in Chicago. Lastly, they declined the alternative oversight scheme and dredged up and dressed up a already rejected plan. The bishops also did not speak to a side request of stopping the lawsuits which continue unabated and only serves to transfer moneys given by our fathers to our churches into the pockets of lawyers. In summary, on this three question exam, the students got half of one question correct. 16% is a failing grade.
People on both sides of this issue are now saying let your ‘Yes“ be not “Maybe” and your “No” be not “Maybe”. It is sad when the president hides behind the definition of “is.” It is despair, outrage, confusion, angst, tragedy, etc., when the leaders of our churches do the same.
This letter has not been edited.
I'd rather have bishops or priests sleeping with each other in consensual, same-sex relationships than raping altar boys. And who the hell are you to judge anyone else? How un-christ-like. But totally in line with the hypocrisy that is modern religion! Take your small, closed little mind elsewhere!
Posted by shaupeen on October 8, 2007 02:47 PMReligion is not bad. God is not a dirty word.
ORGANIZED religion is bad and greedy.
Follow the money train.
Posted by on October 8, 2007 02:55 PMThe solution to this dilema is simple. Join a church that believes the way you believe. Don't ask the church to behave the way you want.
Organized religions are there to make a buck. If you don't like it, leave.
At the middle of this sorry, confused rant I guess we just have another gay-bashing religious nut job. I'd guess that people like McLean make Jesus sick - and that's not a "maybe."
Posted by drew on October 8, 2007 05:09 PMSend all gay people to Iran,he such a nice guy. They will be welcomed with open nooses.
Posted by on October 8, 2007 05:16 PMStan B: Exactly! These are businesses, after all, so they are trying to appeal to a certain type of consumer. You don't like it, take your business elsewhere.
Posted by Roger on October 8, 2007 05:17 PMSeems to me that some are using their bibles as weapons and their voices as annoyances to negate the words inside that book. Better leave it to God. If you really believe he is so weak that he needs you to attack others to get his message across, perhaps you need to re-read a few areas. If you don't believe in God then why on earth would you attack people who are adults and quite capable of making private and intimate decisions for themselves.
A church that is not teaching as you believe can be left behind. Again, as Judge Judy says, "Does it look like I need your help?" God probably agrees with her. Find those who share your belief and worship together and do good together and show kindness together. That is one of the instructions we find in scripture. Does the phrase "shake the dust from your feet, or their dust, (depends on whether the translator used the Vulgate or the King James version) strike a bell? No instructions to shout, threaten, attack or otherwise bother those who don't want to listen to your beliefs. He really doesn't require your help. Otherwise, we would have hundreds of gravity and oxygen and rain and wind machines to maintain. Haven't seen any of them either. Live and Let Live.
Posted by momma y on October 8, 2007 10:31 PMDrew, frankly I dont give a damn with whom you have sex as long as they are not children. But do not pretend to speak for Christ. You lable and dismiss....sound familiar?
Posted by TW on October 9, 2007 07:40 AMShaupeen- Thanks you for the classic example of a false dilemma- we either have to allow consensual homosexual relationships for clergy or the raping of altar boys. Brilliant argument. And yes, Christ judged the morality of behavior *all the time*. You would know that if you actually read the Bible. Joe
Posted by joe on October 9, 2007 08:31 AMDon't be fooled by the stained glass windows, incense and collars, the American Episcopal Church abandoned religon and jetisoned the bible (it cherry-picks what is their truth du jour) long ago. They have lost their moral copmpass and has become a political club that supports and promotes hyper-liberal political causes that are very often anti-family, anti-Christian and anti-American.
Posted by Hank on October 9, 2007 08:40 AMThe line from "Gone With the Wind" comes to mind here as, perhaps, the best answer to any and all the weeping and wailing going on about how this or that Je$u$ Bu$ine$$ franchise is, or is not, pleasing its customers:
"Frankly my dears, I don't give a damn."
Posted by Old Grouch on October 9, 2007 09:31 AMHank was an alter-boy he misses the position and the job!
Posted by TJ on October 9, 2007 02:02 PMThe problem with the Dr. McLeans of the Episcopal Church is that they want both Yeses and Nos to mean No. They not only don't want out gay people in positions of authority for themselves, they don't want gay people in positions of authority over anyone else either, even when those people (such as the diocese of NH) say Yes. They thump the Bible and the Windsor Report over the heads of the Episcopal Church, but conveniently ignore the fact that the Windsor Report told the African bishops to stop diocese-poaching. Their Gospel reads "Come to me all who are weary and heavy-laden*, and I will give you rest. (*Gay and lesbian people need not apply.)"
Posted by peterpi on October 9, 2007 02:04 PMThe order was thus issued:
"...do not pretend to speak for Christ."
...like the blokes who wrote the Bible at least a century after the events supposedly occurred? Or the blokes who've translated it through the years? Or the blow-hards who interpret it for you on Sundays since you have no interest in reading it yourself?
Somebody better speak for "Christ" since he/she/it is a work of fiction...
Posted by Charles B. on October 9, 2007 08:10 PMCharles B,
Are you identifying yourself as a bloke? They didn't exist before the word was invented. Well, no. Just like Jesus, Mohammad, Sri Kishna, Mohammed et. al. But The Believers? They are with us. Unfortunately.
Posted by Stan B on October 9, 2007 08:27 PMJesus said, “Simply let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No’; anything beyond this comes from the evil one.” Matt 5:38
I thought of this verse when I heard Bush tell us last week (once again) that "America doesn't torture" while the disclosed memos secretly authorizing Americans to conduct torture say the opposite.
When will the conservative 'Christians' -- at least those who purport to believe verses like the one quoted by the letter writer --acknowledge the president they overwhelming voted for appears to be guided more by the hand of the "evil one" than the Prince of Peace.
Posted by on October 10, 2007 10:18 AM10:18 AM anonymous,
The wonderful thing about the Je$u$ Bu$ine$$ and its franchi$e$ is, simply, they have a whole mythology book to pick and choose from when they want to state what it is they want - expect, and demand - YOU to believe. It's called, "Proof-texting".
Never mind if it makes sense - or even comes from the same sub-title, or the same group (Old/New Testament). In the mouth of the local franchi$ee, - preacher or priest - it is "god's law". And YOU better believe it.
As to themselves . . . well, now . . . that's another story . . . perhaps best told in Sinclair Lewis's wonderful book, "Elmer Gantry". (Or, you can go to the library and read some of the back editions of the newspaper; but Lewis's book is really a sort of suthentic text-book for those who have the "Call".)
You pays your money, and you takes your choice of your Sunday morning entertainment. (Some of the locals even schedule their services so everyone can get to the Broncos games, either on TV at home or at the stadium. About as logical a "devotion" as any to be found among them; and far less obnoxious than devotions to Dubya the Dimwit, in my opinion.)
Posted by Old Grouch on October 10, 2007 12:37 PMTo the anti religious zealots above: Please either address the letter above or pursue an argument that you possess at least a rudimentary knowledge of the position you have taken. Let’s look at the letter first. The Greater Anglican Church requested three items. Two of the items address Biblical issues directly and the third addresses an alternative oversight for the Episcopal Church due to the fact they are dysfunctional addressing items one and two. After all a “Church” that professes to be Christian cannot embrace homosexuality. A “church” that does not profess to be Christian, but some other faith such as “the church of the compromised word and human goodness” could.
Organized Christian religion is not bad. People are bad. Religion does not mismanage funds people do. There are great Christian Churches and there are Christian Churches that are not. The mission of the Christian Church is the message of the sovereign majesty of God the Father, the Gospel of Christ and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit. The best source for this wonderful message is the Holy Bible. My suggestion for the uninformed is to simply report to your local Church around 9AM this Sunday morning and go to Sunday School and Worship Service. Dive into a serious study of the historicity of Christ, investigate the history of Holy Scripture, read the Bible. After two years or so of rigorous study you’ll be better versed to dissect what you have so little knowledge of.
Kobetabber,
Aside from arrogating the title "Christian" to a single point of view - yours - your opinion is noted, and your sermon is on record.
There are Christians in the world who know that the Bible is NOT the sole foundation of the Faith, nor is it the last word concerning human behavior. Your assertion that, " . . . a Church that professes to be Christian cannot embrace homosexuality", is false.
I have cited sources before. Most of the time, the response has been a refusal to even read them, since they disagree with assertions such as you have made; and the assertions - however false - are superior to any history that refutes them for those making them. However, since you have rendered us a sermon, I'll reply:
John Boswell, "Same Sex Unions in Pre-Modern Europe", Vintage Books, New York, 1995. Dr. Boswell was the A. Whitney Griswold Professor of History at Yale University.
Now, of course, if yours be one of the book-burning cults of the Je$u$ Bu$ine$$ (Prote$tanti$m), and/or Romanism, you will ignore the matter; or offer an excoriation of the author - without any consideration of the topic itself, or of its actual historical facts.
However, for those who really want to learn something about the matter, the text is recommended, as well as Dr. Boswell's other writings on the subject.
Someone once remarked to me, "Christianity is a thinking man's religion". I will spare you his comments on those who arrogate the title to THEIR cultus only. Or, as I have said before: Those who don't want to learn, won't.
Posted by Old Grouch on October 11, 2007 12:11 PMGrumpy- I do not have the time to write a sermon. Christianity does not condone homosexuality. If past or current people engaged in homosexuality and passed it of as a practice acceptable when weighed against Scripture they are “victims of incorrect thinking”. Many cults claim to be Christian and are not. Seriously though, what are you doing spending time reading about homosexuality in pre-modern Europe?
Posted by kobetabber on October 12, 2007 09:15 AMkobetabber,
Just the kind of answer I expected from a bibliolator masquerading as a "Christian". Those who know it all already always lack the basic ability to learn to begin with.
I doubt you are even able to give me a dictionary definition of "serious". But, I'll answer anyway. I do not find Christianity to be bound up solely in a mythology book. Nor do some 30 million others of Christian Faith. We read, and learn, from all available sources, since history - which I used to teach - did not come to a screeching halt when the Protestant Revolutionaries descovered how to get their share of the shearing by holding out to be the oracles for interpreting the book they set up for their sheep to worship,
Posted by Old Grouch on October 12, 2007 03:04 PMMany cults claim to be Christian and are not.
Q.E.D.
Posted by on October 12, 2007 07:22 PMIndeed: Mormon Mitt Romney claims to be Christian as a result of Zombie Moroni, erroneously called "angel" when Joe Smith calls him a "glorified ressurected personage,"* son of warrior Mormon.
*See first page of Intro in Book of Mormon.
Deicide Corner: “. . . if anyone in this audience believes that God made his body, and your body is dirty, the fault lies with the manufacturer.” Comedian Lenny Bruce
Posted by RG, Deicide r22037@yahoo.com Free: blasphemous songs on cassette, me on piano on October 13, 2007 10:59 AMkobetabber,
Since you are the currently self-declared expert on what Christianity will or won't allow, as well as what are and what are not Christian beliefs, practices, and Churches, perhaps you will give us the benefit of you expertise by responding to the following list of questions, often asked by those who find need of expert guidance in the area.
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your posts; and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific Bible laws and how to follow them.
a) When I burn a bull as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev. 1:9. The problem is my neighbors complain to the zoning people. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite then?
b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. What do you think would be a fair price for her? Will the slave buyer be required to continue to pay for her education by law?
c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking; but most women take offense and threaten to call Human Resources.
d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians? Is there something wrong with them due to the weather?
e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 36:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obliged to kill him myself, or should this be a neighborhood improvement project? What is a good day to start? Should we begin with small stones? Kind of lead up to it?
f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10) it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. I mean a shrimp just isn’t the same thing as a you-know-what. Can you settle this?
g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here? Would contact lenses fall within some exception?
h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die? The Mafia once took out Albert Anastasia in a barbershop; but I’m not Catholic. Is this ecumenical thing a sign that it’s ok?
i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean; but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field; as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev. 24:10-16) Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding me that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Brain transplants contains two conclusions:
1) Always ask for a Christian brain because it had low mileage, i.e. seldom used.
2) It costs $50,000 as opposed to other brains that cost $1,000 because it takes a lot of Christian brains to equal one ounce.
This could be said of the Muslim, the Jew, the Mormon brain and other brains steeped in religious dogma on stilts. Republicans walk on stilts: (Do I convey the sentiment of equality since I despise all religions equally?)
Deicide Corner: “The question is, will the rest of America get fed up with fundamentalists before the fundamentalists and the Republican party get fed up with each other? And how much damage will they do before that happy day arrives?” -- Katha Pollitt
Deicide Corner:
Posted by RG, Deicide on October 14, 2007 03:32 PM