Priest, church serve all, no matter status
Patrick Cipolla’s letter of Oct. 16, “Catholic hierarchy embraces illegality,” claims that Denver Catholic Archbishop Charles Chaput and I, pastor of Our Lady of the Mountains parish in Estes Park, support illegal immigration. This is entirely untrue.
Neither Archbishop Chaput nor I condone breaking the law. However, we have both sought to teach and live out respect for the dignity of every human person, which includes respect for Cipolla and respect for the many immigrants who come to the Catholic Church for their spiritual and sometimes physical needs.
I have met with Cipolla and discussed the church’s teachings with him. I’ve explained to him and to others that, as a Catholic priest, I seek to serve the spiritual and physical well-being of the members of our community, without questioning their status — be that rich or poor, progressive or traditional, documented or undocumented.
I’ve also expressed, in agreement with Archbishop Chaput, that the current immigration system in our country is broken. It should be dynamically reformed in order to respond to the many legitimate reasons for migration and also to ensure stability and safety in our country.
The heated and inflammatory rhetoric that characterized Cipolla’s letter, and the blogs that followed it, do nothing to change our current immigration situation. They only incite prejudice and contention. Cipolla is always welcome in the church, as is the immigrant. Church teachings and our parish’s efforts to respect the dignity of the human person won’t change.
The Rev. Grzegorz Cioch
Pastor, Our Lady of the Mountains Catholic Church
Estes Park
he rev maybe in your teaching and caring for the illigals you could explain something about the thing in the bible that talks about not stealing.
so you know the immigration system works very well but its when millions come here and ignore it that it doesnt work.
so would you be just as kind and passionate to a murder who came in asking for help and not turn them in?
ok please explain how all of the illigals are coming here for any legitmate reason when they refuse to adapt to our culture, and with your help they dont need to, learn our language and care for their own?
The contrast between Father Cioch's letter and those of Cipolla and his supporters is the contrast between people who love and people who hate.
Posted by Truth on October 30, 2007 06:37 AMI love all the illigals and wish them well on their trip back across the boarder. show your love too truth and drive a few of them down to mexico and show your love.
Posted by on October 30, 2007 07:17 AMWhat a crock. Criminal illegal Mexicans are a sorely needed revenue stream for the Vatican, Mexican gov't, Rev. Al Sharpton (paid Wal-Mart illegals lobbyist), ag industry, GOP, US Sen. Shamnesty Salazar, ect. They are used to offset the Vatican's financial losses due to their perverted priests (sulfur).
Where was the Catholic Church during the struggles of black slaves and the civil rights movement? The Jews completely financed the cvil rights movement and they didn't resort to tooting their horns about it.
Criminal illegal Mexicans are emotionally and financially raping black folks. Also in N.E. Denver, Owens/Shamnesty arranged it where these boogers could vote, thusly, nullifying black votes in N. E. Denver. They are worst than the KKK. Illegals are running blacks out of the Montbello neighborhood. Illegals will occupy a single family dwelling with more than 20 people. It routine to see them in Monbello with shopping carts selling who knows what.
Meanwhile, Congressional Black Caucus, NAACP, Groff, T. Carroll, Marshall, Jones, and Hancock, are all hiding under their desks. They fear LA RAZA, Richardson, Shamnesty, etc.
Posted by 40acresandmymuleandNAMvetbennies on October 30, 2007 07:44 AMI wonder if the Catholics are going to let Guiliani take communion? Big issue when Kerry was running because of his Pro-choice position. Same thing for Mr G but he is a Republican so it will be interesting to see how honest the Catholic Church is going to be.
Posted by on October 30, 2007 08:14 AMWhat a crock. I am a Catholic but what this priest is saying is " We do support illegals." Catholic Church is so hypocritical we are considering dropping out as well due to this sham.
Posted by on October 30, 2007 08:43 AMPadre, it does NOT sound as if your are following Jesus's example in his ministry where he advises his followers to obey the laws of the government (the render unto Ceasar bit). You make Christians and Catholics in particular look very bad. I'm not asking you to betray the confidence on the confessional, but I do expect your, the Archbishop and all of Clergy to obey the law.
Our immigration systen is NOT broken, it is not being fairly enforced by the government. The prejudice and contention you are disturbed about comes from the corruption of law enforcement that you are ignoring.
The US is a decent country becasue most Americans VOLUNTARILY obey the law, even the ones we do not like. You and your co-conspirators in the clergy are giving reasons for the the rest of Americans to pick and choose the laws we wish to obey and see enforced. Can't the see the donwward spiral that your conduct is setting as an example? Would you condone and excuse the clergy of another Christian sect (ie-Christian Identity) in ignoring the trangressions of thier flocks?
Your excuses seem flimsy and transparent to me. You concern for Mr Cipolla rings hollow. I would advise you that the BEST way to serve the needs of your flock is to insist they obey the law. You and your parishoners should report suspected undocmumented immigrants to ICE and you should assist the undocumented to leave the US.
Posted by Dave on October 30, 2007 08:50 AMThis priest is a bald-faced liar. He fully knows that he told me "how would it look if we took you back into the church and I gave you communion." Also, "if you think we support illegals, just wait until we really get started."
I sent this info to Archbishop Chaput who emailed me back - I still have a copy of the email- in which he says,"I agree with the priest and that we must pay consequences for publicly writing articles in the papers against the Church."
They would rather drive away their own long time Catholics and replace them (so they think) with the illegals. Illegals take from our Country and taxpayers, never contributing or volunteering, unless it benefits them.
Everyone cops out of their responsibilities by saying" We don't question their status." It is about time that we do. If we have military people dying to protect this country, they are being undermined by this kind of thinking.
The Catholic Churches hypocrisy is never ending.
As a former Catholic myself I finally left after the child abuse scandals which was the last straw.
My view on this "The Church Serve All" compassion is that if these illegal aliens were Protestants it then would be horse of a different color. What it comes down to is more illegal alien Catholics, more money in the collection plate and more political power.
What else is new for a Church that is still waiting for thr Holy Roman Empire to be resurrected.
Posted by Money Talks on October 30, 2007 09:10 AMAs I've said before: FOLLOW THE MONEY. The illegals are supporting a declining church, so of course the church will break the law and help them. But, as with the child abuse scandal, the church thinks it's above the law.
Posted by CWW on October 30, 2007 09:31 AMTruth,
You sure got that one right. "Cipolla and his followers" are filled with hate.
Posted by James Jones on October 30, 2007 09:41 AMI presume that narrow-minded people such as Dave would have the clerk at the corner drugstore require each customer to prove he is legal before filling his prescription. Or does that apply only to people who are trying to help those in need?
I wonder, if Dave and other narrow-minded people saw a Hispanic child fall and hurt himself if they would first want to know his immigration status before offering to help.
These people are full of passion, and empty of compassion.
Posted by Truth on October 30, 2007 09:52 AMTruth
I hear the drugstores in Mexico are cheaper.
Don't be so melodramatic bringing in kids for your defense of lawbreaking illegal aliens. We should treat them like human beings but we cannot defend them breaking the law. Only the Catholic Church and the liberal more moocher votes for the Democrats do that and the cheap labor Republicans.
Fr. Cioch explains the reality of the situation truthfully. Mr Cipolla you charge that based on your personal conversations this Priest is a liar. That charge is not credible.
Posted by James Jones on October 30, 2007 10:36 AMJames Jones,
You have got to be a complete idiot ( or a Mexican). How do you know who is truthful? At least Mr. Cipolla has in his possession an email from the Archbishop acknowledging his conversations, etc.
You castigate people -filled with hate- just because they speak the truth which you apparently don't like. Just label people- what a moron.
Everyone knows the Catholic stance on accepting illegals. It is a fact not fiction.
To the poster at 11:51 AM and 10:12 AM, it's going to be okay. Just try to get a hold on yourself. Call 911 if it gets any worse.
Posted by Truth on October 30, 2007 12:00 PMSo-called "Truth": Expecting others to obey the law has nothing to do with hate. Get over yourself.
Posted by on October 30, 2007 12:45 PMTruth, you should change your handle. It is an oxymoron.
You obviously don't know how to handle the truth!
Illegal immigrants should be turned in to the authorities. Some within in the Church may believe they are not required to obey the law but I'll wager Pope Benedict will soon disabuse the present hierarchy of this error in judgment. Church services and compassionate care may be granted to anyone. Any attempt to protect them from the legal penalties resultant from their illegal status is usually trumpeted as the requirement to give sanctuary. NO! The Church may NOT hide them nor help them break the laws of the land, including those governing employment. The laws of sanctuary require obedience to the law and limit the amount of time one may be granted this privilege. Those protected by the banner of sanctuary must present themselves to the law and be subject to the authorities. The purpose of sanctuary is not to hide from the authorities but to place the authorities and the accused before the public. The result was to be that all would see the trial and thus it would be fair. Call sanctuary a floodlight on the situation not a shadowed hiding place.
I'm sure someone will use the, "But they hid the Jews in WWII against the law." Yes, many, not all, did. The important part of this is the exception granted for "imminent danger of death."
Illegals are not in that danger. They are in danger of being returned to their country of origin. They are in danger of being denied government benefits they are not entitled to receive. They are in danger of unemployment. They are in danger of poverty. They are in danger of being made to obey the laws.
Those dangers apply to many, not just illegals. I am in danger of death if I cannot buy my heart medications, but I am not entitled to go into the drug store and just take them. We obey the laws in order to maintain our society as a viable entity. No one is above the law. No institution may violate the laws merely to further their views without making themselves subject to penalties.
Church law requires compassion and assistance. It specifically prohibits those actions to necessary hide illegals and defy the authorities. Any aid given to an illegal outside of the sacraments and simple assistance in food or shelter is breaking the law. As a strong Catholic, I suggest that the authorities enforce the laws that already permit the suspension of tax benefits to any entity or organization that aids illegals in hiding from the authorities.
If our priest and bishops are steadfast in their attitude towards illegals, it will only strengthen them to do so with less money.
I even wonder if that priest is an illegal. I bet he never had it this good or even made the money he is making as a priest in his native Europe.
I agree that the tax exempt status should be taken away from not only this Catholic church but all churches who pander and give sanctuary to illegal immigrants.
Excellent post Momma Y!!! Suspending the Catholic Church's tax exemption status for supporting illegals, would certainly be an eye-opener wouldn't it?? Get em where it hurts. In the pocketbook. If they have any money left!
The Church is just trying to re-coup the millions they had to pay out to the children(now adults) sexually abused by their priests.
Catholic Churches have went from hiding and supporting pedophile priests to hiding and supporting illegals!
99% of illegals are Catholic and illiterate. They will gladly hand over money to the Church, it is part of their culture.
It will be interesting to see just how much lower the Church will go?
Posted by A on October 30, 2007 02:22 PMExcellent post Momma Y!!! Suspending the Catholic Church's tax exemption status for supporting illegals, would certainly be an eye-opener wouldn't it?? Get em where it hurts. In the pocketbook. If they have any money left!
The Church is just trying to re-coup the millions they had to pay out to the children(now adults) sexually abused by their priests.
Catholic Churches have went from hiding and supporting pedophile priests to hiding and supporting illegals!
99% of illegals are Catholic and illiterate. They will gladly hand over money to the Church, it is part of their culture.
It will be interesting to see just how much lower the Church will go?
Posted by A on October 30, 2007 02:22 PMSORRY for double posting!!
Posted by A on October 30, 2007 02:24 PMThank you Father Cioch for defending the defenseless and for speaking out for those who can not for themselves. This is exactly what Jesus did and this is exactly how he was treated.
Your reward is great in heaven, until then have courage and persistence. Love those who hate you and maybe there is hope for them, so many converted on their deathbed!
God bless you!
Posted by on October 30, 2007 05:32 PMThank you Jose.
If this priest didn't condone illegal Mexicans and does not pander, then why did he start having a Mass in Spanish every Saturday night??
ICE should raid these churches regularly.
Posted by Uno on October 30, 2007 06:55 PMI am sooo conflicted about this issue as I fear most of us are. We are afraid of speaking out against the Church that gives us the Body of Christ. So I must reflect on the image in my mind i.e. that of all of us making up that body. The scripture passage of how a sick body is affected when part of it is hurt, comes to mind. The Church- the Body of Christ is sick. It is broken in many pieces. Although the ecumenical councils began for this healing process, it was for 30 years, corrupted by liberalism. It seems to me that those of us in Holy Love with the Church should be calling everyone to prayer and a lot of it. My frustration with the priests is their continuing ignorance and ignoring of our Blessed Mother to pray the Rosary every day for peace and for the guidance we all need to solve these problems, to heal this brokenness and to be guided by Jesus. She gave us her Son’s plan for peace- why is it being so ignored-don’t people have faith enough to believe prayer will work? Is the Archbishop afraid to encourage his parishioners to pray the Rosary?
Jesus himself had no problem calling the priests of his day who were hypocrites’ a brood of vipers. What is a viper- a snake- a representation of satin and his work. So some are doing Christ’s work and some are on the side of Satin. My problem is what defines hypocrisy in this situation and a dialog about that is needed. What should we do in the mean time until these so called reforms are passed? All I can think of is pray. I cannot help but remember that there are two border guards in prison for doing their job and they were put their by our own sick government and being held in isolation-worse than any thing at Guantanamo. I keep thinking I should write to these prisoners, but I haven’t done it yet! The influence of Satin is everywhere. I call on all of you to join the praying of the Rosary everyday to bring about peace. To go to www.Holylove.org with your prayer requests and to do a good examination of conscience asking what good have I done for life today? Jesus also forgave the woman who was being stoned and challenged those who were throwing stones of their own sins and we also know that as long as this country allows abortion we will have all kinds of problems.
So one the one hand I totally agree to helping the poor as Jesus did and in obeying the laws which he also did. One the other hand we have a corrupt government that wants the trade doors open and conspires with the Mexican government to give Mexico everything it wants and our hands are tied. Wake up people. We are in the end times and one world government is looming and times are changing. Our country is no longer sovereign-in the end we are going to have to help each other and our neighbor, be he Mexican or not, illegal or not. He might be the person we have to depend on for help. In this regard I agree with the priest’s careful wording. But I think it’s a shame that our Bishops do not stand up to the legal makers and call them down for not upholding the laws and allowing us to create the kind of society that allows the pursuit of happiness- Our constitution has been changed beyond recognition. And soon our voices will not be allowed to be herd at all unless we pray the rosary. The Problem is so much bigger than the Church, the priests and the illegal’s isn’t it-
It's all about the money folks. The church is failing to bring in more converts these days so go after the ones who will come to you for protection. They bring their money with them.
Posted by c on October 30, 2007 08:58 PMWe are membersof that Church- Our Lady of the Mountains, and I can tell you many of us are very dissatisfied with this priest for not only his stance on illegals but other things as well- expansion of our Church, building, etc. He caters to tourists and illegals not us. We have been members here for over 35 years and will be glad to see him go elsewhere!
Posted by J. on October 31, 2007 06:22 AMFr. Cioch,
There will always be those among us for whom freedom is just a toy. Please know that there are many more who are grateful for your service and who pray for you, and all the clergy, daily.
Posted by James Jones on October 31, 2007 06:30 AMTruth Oct. 30 12:00
You must be a priest "Pardre". One of times I will call 911 is when I see a Catholic Priest molesting a child. Even an illegal immigrant little boy.
Posted by on October 31, 2007 09:48 AMHey, at least they're busy harboring illegal aliens instead of molesting little kids.
"truth"
Is Mr. Garcia, the author of the letter below, hateful?
Mexican-American resents footing the bill
Monday, October 22 at 12:01 AM
I am a person of Hispanic descent and I have to tell you that it makes me angry that the other persons of Hispanic descent are expecting us as taxpayers to foot the bill for the education of their children in a bilingual school.
That doubles the expense of educating children. Why is it up to us to interpret the English language for these folks? If the parents of the children would educate themselves prior to coming to our country, perhaps it wouldn’t be as expensive for the schools and maybe then more schools could remain open.
It’s wrong for immigrants who come to this country to expect us to foot the bill for their every need! So let’s not blame the school district for the problems; how about we look in the mirror!
We can’t allow this abuse of our good graces and our programs that were designed for the American people to continue.
I am Mexican myself, however my family came here legally and assimilated to the American way of life including speaking the language of the land — English. If immigrants really want to contribute to America, that would be a good place to start!
Anthony Garcia, Castle Rock
Posted by RickyLee on October 31, 2007 09:59 AMTwo/Three... months ago there was this fellow, Anderson, who morphs into James Jones. The pedophile priest Cioch, his church's recent payout amounting to 680 million dollars and denying any wrongdoing blaming evil and despicable men when in fact the hierarchy is also pedophiles, I believe is a liar. I'll tell you what the church believes:
Yo: I looked up "Incarnation" in dictionary.com: Assumption of human form: Whereas "transmogrification" is morphing from human form into deity or spirit. The credulous believed and now Cioch and Church believe:
Most of the savior-gods were identified with the edible flesh and blood of the earth, meaning the bread and wine harvested, consumed, and resurrected with the next planting. Osiris, Adonis and Mithra were all eaten in the form of communion bread, declared to be god’s flesh, which the worshipper thus made a part of his own flesh in order to share the god’s resurrection.
Adonis was miraculously born of a temple maiden in Bethlehem , which means “the House of Bread.” He was called the Bread of god, which became the worshiper’s body also, as in John 6:56: “He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me and I in him.”
Therefore: Rev. liar, pedophile Cioch and his church are so credulous they believe like the Mormons who morph from human to god and god to human. How can intelligence not recognize superstition on stilts with its "Begotten" To be glad about nonsense?
Deicide Corner: “Until this awful blasphemy [the Incarnation] is got rid of, there never will be any liberal science in the world.” -- John Adams
Posted by Richard Grimes, Deicide r22037@yahoo Free blasphemous songs on cassette with me on piano. on October 31, 2007 10:49 AM"The priest is a bald-faced liar," says Cip which leads me to believe he is beardless and quite credulous to believe in his beardless leader's "eat my flesh; drink my blood" and live forever.
This means Jesus the Christ was not a bald-faced liar but a bearded liar whereas Pope Rat (Ratzinger) is also a bald-faced liar.
These bald-faced liars should have their tax exemption revoked because the bearded-liar said (his fanclub said) "Render unto Caesar what is Caesars... and in America the people are Caesar. Pay taxes you bald-faced liars.
Posted by JVB on October 31, 2007 11:16 AMSonnet Written in Disgust of Vulgar Superstition
The church bells toll a melancholy round,
Calling the people to some other prayers,
Some other gloominess, more dreadful cares,
More hearkening to the sermon's horrid sound.
Surely the mind of man is closely bound
In some black spell; seeing that each one tears
Himself from fireside joys, and Lydian airs,
And converse high of these with glory crown'd.
Still, still they toll, and I should feel a damp,--
A chill as from a tomb, did I not know
That they are dying like an outburnt lamp;
That 'tis their sighing, wailing ere they go
Into oblivion;--that fresh flowers will grow,
And many glories of immortal stamp.
-- John Keats
Man O Man: All of Mary's letters I've enjoyed: Aw Jesus Christ! Here she comes with her 13-year-old Jewish virgin raped by either David or the Holy Spook to deliver a "jew" baby destined for the House of Israel where the windows and doors are immediately barred to keep out the vermin, a malignant virus in the brains of humans, only.
Mary says pray to this virgin who after giving birth requires the death of every infant two years and younger "coast to coast" in an effort to kill this fictional "jew," and is rightaway levitated into heaven to prevent her being debauched by other Jews, KJV et al claims she gives birth to Josas, James, Judas, Simon, and daughters.
The Church convinces Mary that Virgin Mary can answer prayer of which there are three types: Imprecatory, Self-serving, Intercessory and so Mary says: "...unless we pray the rosary."
Virgin Mary is vermin like the "jew" baby who Jews give the birdie and Paul, who never meets Jesus or knows anybody who knows Jesus brings Jesus to the credulous Mary, aforementioned. Mary even believes that Jesus carries his own cross when Mt. 27, Mk. 15, Lk. 23 claim Simon carried it.
Mary has always come off as intelligent; however, herein, she gets a free pass for her ignorance. Sorry Mary, but it is Virgin Mary who picks up the first stone because she is the only one without sin. Must impose the virtue of brevity: Ends.
Posted by RG r22037@yahoo on October 31, 2007 02:05 PMJust for the record, Father Cioch has not said anything in his letter to suggest that he is doing anything illegal.
What he has said is:
"Neither Archbishop Chaput nor I condone breaking the law. However, we have both sought to teach and live out respect for the dignity of every human person, which includes respect for Cipolla and respect for the many immigrants who come to the Catholic Church for their spiritual and sometimes physical needs."
He has also said that he thinks that our immigration system is broken. I'm not aware of anyone who disagrees with that.
But his letter does contain the word "Catholic" in it. That's all the wild people need. That is like a piece of candy next to an ant bed. Worse, his letter contains the word "immigration". Wow, a piece of candy with honey on it.
Posted by Truth on October 31, 2007 07:10 PMRegardless if our immigration system is broken or not, you still have to respect and uphold the law. That is whole point.
All of us from L.A., to D.C. to Boston to Denver, know the Catholics want more illegals- which is condoning the lawbreakers!
Truth, change your anonymous name. You have nothing to do with truth.
The immigration system is not broken, it is just enforced. Those of us who come here have to wait, pay a few thousand $$$, then come here.
It is easy to say something is broken when in fact, it has worked for years and years.
Get a clue Truth
Yo Truth: I heard Tom Trancredo and others voice their allegation that America's immigration system is operative and just needs for the law it creates to be enforced.
Deicide Corner: Those who castigate the left-handed person are mf/wretches. Humans as with other life forms can't help the way they are born if you get my drift. I sired five and all are born right-handed.
Posted by Richard Grimes, Deicide r22037@yahoo Free blasphemous songs on cassette with me on mediocre paino. on November 2, 2007 12:32 PMFr. Greg happens to be my pastor. He would hear my confessions when I was 13 years old, and I can assure you, he is NOT a pedophile.
Fr. Greg's compassion for people would enable him to receive, with open arms, even those who unjustly castigate him in these responses.
Fr. Greg lives his life in the love of God. This love emanates from him through his acts of charity which are bestowed on the souls, equal in the eyes of God, who come seeking his guidance.
Fr. Greg has never once, condoned the breaking of laws. To the contrary, he is the strongest advocate of laws in our parish. Ten laws, written by the hand of God Himself!
Some here say that the Church needs illegal immigrant money. May I remind everyone that the Catholic Church encompasses the globe and has no need for "Mexican Money."
In addition, some have quoted the "render unto caesar" bit. You seem to forget the other part of the verse.
"Caesar" gets our money but, when you "render unto God that which is God's", you render something much more important. Souls. [Will He accept yours?]
Fr. Greg is in the business of saving souls. He devotes his life to saving others. Even if their bodies are illegally located, he must tend to their immortal souls. If he shirked from this duty because of something petty, then that WOULD be hypocrisy.
I must admit that I was completely enraged by the opinions of those who left responses. Then I felt sorry for them. They have never experienced the love that Fr. Greg exudes, as I have; and that's a shame.
Peace to all!
GOD BLESS
Posted by Justin Brown on November 9, 2007 05:24 PM