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LATEST LETTERS

I want my freedom of religion restored

Monday, November 5 at 2:02 PM

Norma Link of Lakewood writes:

Comments by our Founding Fathers concerning our government and religion:
“It cannot by emphasized too strongly or too often that this great Nation was founded not by religionists, but by Christians; not on religions, but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ. For that reason alone people of other faiths have been afforded freedom of worship here.” — Patrick Henry.
“The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: “It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.” — President John Adams.
James Madison, the primary author of the Constitution of the United States, said this: “We have staked the whole future of all our political constitutions upon the capacity of each of ourselves to govern ourselves according to the moral principles of the Ten Commandments.”
As a Christian I want my freedom of religion restored. I want to be free to mention God and Jesus Christ without being CENSORED!!!!!

This letter has not been edited.

READER COMMENTS

Norma is another one of those Christians looking for little puffs of persecution. Since she did not mention even one instance where she has been censored, I anxiously await her follow up letter with details.

I want to know where, when and how she was denied her freedom of religion.

I`m not going to get into this founding fathers dog fight about this not being a Christian nation founded on the Gospel and the Ten Commandments because we have pretty much beat that subject to death.

We should all focus on where this poor Christian has been shut down and rush to her aid.

Posted by Sharon B. on November 5, 2007 02:22 PM

Really? We are to be governed by the priniciples of the ten commandments? No more covetting my neighbors wife?

Posted by LOL on November 5, 2007 02:27 PM

I think that the replies so far to this letter serve to prove Norma's point. The only people it has become ok to bash and discriminate against are Christians. And no I am not one, but I think that the discrimination should stop.

Posted by Mickey on November 5, 2007 02:41 PM

And I want my kids to be able to attend public school without being indoctrinated by the religious right.

Posted by jay on November 5, 2007 02:44 PM

Point's already been made, but it bears repeating - Yes, Ms. Link, how have you been censored or prevented from practicing your religion? (which, you go to great lengths to make clear, is Christian).

It's been my experience that whenever someone complains about their freedom of religion being infringed upon, it's usually them not being able to push their religion on others in a way prescribed by that religion.

Christians have been doing this 'we're oppressed' pose for a long time. I'm not buying it.

Posted by Jeff on November 5, 2007 02:49 PM

Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion. Without using your holy scriptures, can anyone prove that there is in fact a deity?

Posted by on November 5, 2007 03:06 PM

Thankfully, Norma "Weakest" Link's religion is dying. It will be a grand day in the world when the diatribes of witless and superstitious rubes like Norma are met with the laughter and scorn they deserve.

And don't bother waiting for her or any other Christian to come up with an example of their rights being trampled, and no, the "War on Christmas" doesn't count...

Posted by Charles B on November 5, 2007 03:11 PM

So Jeff, you mean everyone not having to bow down to your superstitions and elevate them to a special status isn't oppression? Don't tell that to the whining fundies.

The only problem with the War on Christmas is the low casualty rate.

Posted by on November 5, 2007 03:17 PM

I've studied quite a bit on James Madison and never once read the statement about the Ten Commandments. In fact, I have read that this is a fabrication written by an evangelical author who has since recanted this assertion. As for Patrick Henry; when Madison wrote to Jefferson about Henry's opposition to his religious separation clause concerning non-Christians Jefferson replied that "We should devoutly pray for Mr. Henry's (early death)". And John Adams used his position as President to promote the "Alien and Sedition Act", one of the most unconstitutional pieces of legislation ever written.

Norma, who is questioning one's right to worship, as they see fit and who is trying to impose their religious beliefs' on others?

Posted by Stan B on November 5, 2007 03:40 PM

Norma,

Why don't you put these quotes in your self-righteous christian pipe & smoke them:

I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of... Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."- Thomas Paine (The Age of Reason, 1794-1795.)

"Is uniformity attainable? Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error
all over the earth." - Thomas Jefferson (Notes on Virginia, 1782; from George Seldes, ed., The Great Quotations, Secaucus, New Jersey: Citadel Press, 1983, p. 363.)

"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." - James Madison (Memorial and Remonstrance against Religious Assessments, 1785.)

"Where do we find a precept in the Bible for Creeds, Confessions, Doctrines and Oaths, and whole carloads of other trumpery that we find religion encumbered with in these days?" - John Adams

"The civil rights of none shall be abridged on account of religious belief or worship, nor shall any national religion be established, nor shall the full and equal rights of conscience be in any manner, or on any pretence, infringed.'' - James Madison (Original wording of the First Amendment; Annals of Congress 434 (June 8, 1789).)

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Musselmen; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation..." - (Treaty of Tripoli, 1797 - signed by President John Adams.)

Posted by drew on November 5, 2007 04:10 PM

"As a XXXXXXXXX I want my freedom of religion restored. I want to be free to mention XXX and XXXXX XXXXXX without being CENSORED!!!!!"

Hmmm.. guess she's right :-)

Posted by on November 5, 2007 04:26 PM

Norma,
keep on worshiping any dead (and risen) Liberal you please.
Jesus would like that.
So would his Dad.
And our Founding Fathers.
And Al Franken.
God bless America, while you still can.

Posted by dmz on November 5, 2007 05:33 PM

WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT??????? WHAT MORE CAN WE DO TO CODDLE THE RELIGIOUS IN THIS COUNTRY? EACH AND EVERY PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE WILL TELL YOU HOW THEY WANT TO LURE THE CHRISTIAN VOTE.

I'm an atheist, and I'd wonder what they'll offer me?

God bless America
In God we trust
God Bless the USA
No Taxes
Wealthy preachers at our expense
Wealthy congregations at taxpayer expense
Wasted money on creationism debates
Wasted money on 10 commandments in public

WASTE! WASTE! WASTE!

Norma, feel free to shout out loud about God and Jesus Christ from your rooftop. No one will ever stop you from doing that. Build your house in the shape of a church. Burn a crucifix into your lawn. Put your child in religious school.

Posted by on November 5, 2007 06:10 PM

"Readers of this blog know that he notoriously passed phony quotations from our Founding Fathers trying to “prove” they were evangelical like him who intended to “found” the nation in public sense on fundamentalist Christianity. For instance, this phony quotation by Patrick Henry: ["quoted" in the above letter by Norma Link]
Barton acknowledged this and other quotations have no basis in the historical record, but that doesn’t stop plenty of believers in the “Christian Nation” myth to continue citing them."
"He is not a trained historian but rather has a BA from Oral Roberts University in “Christian Education.”

Note: If the quote is a phony, as the above and a number of other website statements claim, it is not the fault of Norma Link that she used that quote because it is repeated numerous times as valid in a number of websites, most Christian evangelical websites.

Posted by Truth on November 5, 2007 07:28 PM

It also appears that the "quote" by John Adams comes from David Barton and its authenticity has been questioned in the website below and a number of others.

http://www.sullivan-county.com/bush/myth5.htm

Posted by Truth on November 5, 2007 07:33 PM

It also appears that the James Madison "quote" comes from David Barton.

http://jonrowe.blogspot.com/2004/05/false-quotes-from-our-founders-on.html

NOTE: I have not done enough research to be able to say that these quotes are all phonies, but I just want to point out that their authenticity has been questioned.

Posted by Truth on November 5, 2007 07:38 PM

This forum could really use a mental health provider. Here again we have examples of sick people taking their shots. Norma Link posted a perfectly civil letter stating her viewpoint and is needlessly and egregiously persecuted for doing so. The forum slogan should be "some of America's sickest people come here to vent".

Posted by Truth on November 5, 2007 07:45 PM

Truth, in "her perfectly civil letter" she claims to be the victim of censorship and I would like to know where and when.

Civil maybe, but accusatory and hysterical.

Posted by Sharon B. on November 5, 2007 07:54 PM

Let's get the radical left wing wackos out of our schools

Posted by Ben- Once a year churchgoer on November 5, 2007 08:09 PM

Charles B, one day when the devil sinks her claws into your shoulders and drag you down into the dark caves of hell to roast there for eternity, you’ll wish that you listened more to the truthtellers, but it’s gonna be too late. Oh, the never ending pain of burning as your eyeballs dry up and shrivel, your skin turns to crisp and your tong a piece of wood, damn, you better apologize to Christians now, and pay the Mormon church.

Posted by Uno on November 5, 2007 09:09 PM

Uno waxed poetic:

"Charles B, one day when the devil sinks her claws into your shoulders and drag you down into the dark caves of hell to roast there for eternity, you’ll wish that you listened more to the truthtellers, but it’s gonna be too late. Oh, the never ending pain of burning as your eyeballs dry up and shrivel, your skin turns to crisp and your tong a piece of wood, damn, you better apologize to Christians now, and pay the Mormon church."

Cool epitaph!

Posted by Charles B on November 5, 2007 09:44 PM

Uno, now you know the Devil is He. Not she. I swear my work never ends with this gender business.

And Angles are neuters, right?

Posted by Sharon B. on November 5, 2007 09:55 PM

Thanks, Charles.

Sharon, I knew it’d gonna tie your thong into a knot, and you gonna say something about it.
I saw a documentary being advertised called “The devil wears Prada”, so I figured it’s a she, and not some cross-dresser.

Posted by Uno on November 5, 2007 10:09 PM

Norma is correct. While Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the world, as well as the largest, it is constantly under attack in the US. Atheism has become a religion in itself, and atheists want government to establish their beliefs as the official US religion. Those who wonder whether our nation was founded by theists or atheists, should check our country's earliest official coinage. The phrase "In God We Trust" was not a 20th Century invention. If atheists think our coinage was an anomaly of its times, check out Colorado's state motto: Nil Sine Numine (Nothing without God). That says it all.

Posted by wrtr83 on November 6, 2007 01:51 AM

Oh wrtr83, and Colorado has been a state how long? Colorado was not part of the original United States of America was it? Maybe not 20th century, but not colonial times either. do you know what that proves? Nothing. What do the other state haves to say.

How can atheistic non-belief be established as a belief by the government?

Man particle physics is easier to understand than no religion being a religion. Lack of belief is a belief. Up is down and cold is hot..

Posted by Sharon B. on November 6, 2007 02:03 AM

There is hope for you heathens..

BAKERSFIELD, Calif. — Trustees of the largest high school district in the country voted 4-1 Monday night to mandate displays bearing the nation's motto — "In God We Trust" — and other historical documents in over 2,300 district classrooms and offices.

The display of the Constitution, Declaration of Independence and Bill of Rights will be included in the posters approved by district trustees in Bakersfield, Calif. Monday night.

Kern County High School District trustee Chad Vegas initially proposed the measure as a way of promoting patriotism. But the idea sparked a contentious debate.

"I'm exteremely pleased the measure passed and was in fact expanded beyond what I had originally proposed," said Vegas.

In addition to placing the displays in over 2,300 classrooms, the posters will also be hung in district boardrooms, libraries, administrative offices and other rooms.

Posted by on November 6, 2007 07:19 AM

Here is the terrible statement made by Norma that elicited the vile and contemptible retorts above:

"As a Christian I want my freedom of religion restored. I want to be free to mention God and Jesus Christ without being CENSORED!!!!!"

Many people, including me, do not want people to preach their religion under government auspices. That can be considered as censorship. Censorship which I think is justified, but censorship nonetheless.

Posted by Truth on November 6, 2007 08:02 AM

I'm sure that Hindu Priest from Nevada would have like to not be shouted down by Christians while delivering his prayer in the Senate.

You have to allow ALL religions to be represented in the United States, not just your Christian faith. You can have your Ten Commandments in the schools as long as they are placed next to the Buddhist Sutras, passages from the Koran and pagan prayers. Until you are willing to do that, then the government is better off just removing religion from government buildings and institutions. Less fighting that way.

Posted by Roger on November 6, 2007 09:05 AM

"Christianiyt started out in Palestine as a fellowship
it moved to Greece and became a philosophy
it moved to Italy and became an institution
it moved to Europe and became a culture
it came to America and became an enterprise
- Sam Pascoe, American Author

Why should we pursue the truth? and why should we investigate and reason? and why should we be mentally honest and hospitable? and why should we express our honest thoughts? To this there is but one answer: for the benefit of mankind.
The monarch of the skies will be dethroned - the flames of hell will be extinguished. Pious beggars will become honest and useful men. Hypocrisy will collect no toll from fears, lies will not be regarded as sacred, this life will not be sacrificed for another, human beings will love each other instead of gods, men will do right, not for the sake of some reward in some other world, but for the sake of happiness here. Man will find that Nature is the only revelations, and that he, by his own efforts, must learn to read the stories told by the star and cloud, by the rock and soil, by sea and stream, by rain and fire, by plant and flower, by life in all its curious forms, and all the things and forces of the world.
-Author unknown by poster

Posted by on November 6, 2007 09:49 AM

mf Jesus Christ plans a holy genocide 2nd Coming in which the fictional "jew" morphed (transmogrified) into a Xtian anti-Semitic god will drop-kick my soul into hell (perhaps my body, who knows); therefore, don't mention that mf's name in public where I can hear or read it. Note: mf and wretch what Xtians call themselves means evil and despicable in dictionary.com and the same for Jehovah and Allah and 9 million other spokes in the wheel of excrement.

Deicide Corner: It took the military five weeks to disclose the truth to his family: that Pat Tillman died from fratricide. When his antiwar views--he soon considered the war "illegal"--were documented by his family, they were attacked by right-wingers. Richard Tillman wrote that the best way to honor his brother's birthday was by choices made on "the day After Pat's Birthday" (Nov. 7, 2006, Election Day). Tillman wrote: "Somehow suspension of habeas corpus is supposed to keep this country safe. Somehow torture is tolerated. Somehow lying is tolerated. Somehow reason is being discard for faith, dogma, and nonsense." ~~~~ “Hold your spiritual bromides. . . Pat isn't with God. He's f--ing dead. He wasn't religious. So thank you for your thoughts, but he's f--ing dead.” -- Brother Richard Tillman at his brother's memorial service.

Posted by Richard Grimes, r22037@yahoo Deicide/Misanthrope to god's representative on November 6, 2007 10:15 AM

Norma Link: I will not be reduced to name-calling with which Link rhymes; therefore, my dear misguided ignorant female, Josephus' 21 volumes on Jewish history has a paragraph, very short, about your mf Jesus the Christ inserted centuries later. Your quotes are false. Mormon Utah has a picture of Geo. Washington crossing the delaware kneeling in prayer. Norma, these mf Christians are so ignorant they can't explain how the earth can be about 6000 years old while 30,000 years ago polar bears existed in Antartica and about two hundred millions years ago alligators and turtles existed. mf Christians believe the Grand Canyon was recently created, although in geologic time it was recently created hundreds of millions of years in the making. I could go on and on but for what? Christians are too ignorant and credulous. Hey! I'll send you the false paragraph in Josephus' volumes inserted by a mf Christian, scrivener Origen, perhaps. http://www.geocities.com/r22037/think.html

Posted by RG on November 6, 2007 10:43 AM

Let's get the radical left wing wackos out of our schools

Posted by Ben- Once a year churchgoer

As a youth it was Ben-once a year school attendee

Posted by on November 6, 2007 11:03 AM

See, Norma, there it is under your own letter in glorious italics: "This letter has not been edited."

So what are you yowling about?

But since you brought up these alleged pro-Christian sentiments of some of the Founding Fathers, find out sometime what they thought of women voting (let alone holding positions of authority in government). And ask them how their slaves are.

Posted by Hans Christian Brando on November 6, 2007 12:19 PM

who would have thought:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/06/cbsnews_investigates/main3456977.shtml

Posted by jay on November 6, 2007 12:26 PM

Hurray for Grassley. what is the logic in religious institutions having tax-exempt status in the first place.

Posted by mike s on November 6, 2007 02:07 PM

Norma Link: You are sub-human according to Christianity. America's Founders created a godless Constitution and its first two presidents said so in the Treaty of Tripoi. Not only did they leave god out of it but banned him in Article 6 Section 3. Lord can be found in the date of the Constitution but that could be in reference to Julius Caesar. If the Founders had intended a dictator named Jesus Christ they would have said so; instead, they chose a dictator named "We the people. Women are fields for men to come into says Jews, Muslims, Christians and Mormons along with all patriarchal religions. So spread your legs and obey your god.

Posted by JVB on November 6, 2007 02:30 PM

JVB: "So spread your legs and obey your god."

What a nice, thoughtful comment. Doesn't make sense, of course, but the main requirement is to be foul-mouthed.

Posted by Truth on November 6, 2007 03:17 PM

Our founding Fathers were sick and tired of King George III and his (Christian) Church of England .
I learned that in the third grade. It's part of why we started the Revolution. To be free to worship as we see fit, or not.
Norma, you have nothing to fear, with the possible exception of Uno and her sadistic ilk.

Uno's just a regular little miss ray of sunshine, isn't she?

Posted by dmz on November 6, 2007 06:24 PM

Norma, how right you are.

Like, when they changed the Pledge of Allegiance to state "one nation, under NO GOD".

Boy, I was mad about that one too.

Posted by on November 6, 2007 08:22 PM

And Norma, how mad were you when they removed "In God We Trust" from our currency? That one infuriated me too!

I'm sick and tired of Christians being censored too. Next thing you know, they'll try to take GOD out of our constitution!!!!!!!

Posted by on November 6, 2007 09:24 PM

Credulous ignorant Norma contends that the Founders inserted into America In God We Trust, not true; Norma contends the Founders inserted god into the Constitution, not true; Norma contends the Pledge of Allegiance was written with "under God" which is not true. Everything Norma contends is not true. Where are you Keith? Tell Norma to get her facts. Tell Norma the Founders banned god from the Constitution in Article 6 paragraph 3 ~~ They didn't want a dictator named Jesus the Christ; they opted for We The People. Fact her, Keith.

Posted by JVB on November 7, 2007 11:50 AM

For the benefit of those misguided:

The original Pledge of Allegiance made no mention of God. Written by Baptist minister Francis Bellamy in 1892, it read, "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

The pledge was changed in 1923 and 1924 to include "the United States of America," to avoid any confusion about to whose flag and which Republic people were offering their allegiance.

Congress made the Pledge official when it passed the U.S. Flag Code in 1942, and added the "under God" phrase three years later. "By placing the religious words 'under God' into the Pledge, Congress not only interfered with the patriotism and national unity the Pledge was meant to engender, but it actually fostered divisiveness . . . in a manner expressly forbidden by the Constitution."

Congress goaded by Catholics (five are now Supremes) changed the word "my" Flag to "the" Flag.

Posted by CDG on November 7, 2007 01:18 PM

I echo many of the previous comments:
* These quotes were almost certainly gathered from David Barton material. Barton is a proven liar many times over regarding fictitious quotes from our founders.
* None of these three quotes is verifiable.
* The Treaty of Tripoli is verifiable. As mentioned in a previous comment, it specifically states that this nation is not founded on christianity....it gets no more plain than that.
* Also per previous comment: if this nation were truly founded on biblical principles and christianity, why is nothing biblical nor any reference to christ found in any of the founding documents....specifically the Constitution.
* My Dear Norma...you are totally misled and an ignorant lost soul. You are unknowingly (I think) misleading others of our citizens into thinking that what you have to say has some substance. It does not.

Posted by John R on November 8, 2007 12:09 AM

Revisit Belamy's Pledge: "I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

Explain the wisdom of Christianity to adulterate the pledge. Christianity is so (fill in the blank) ignorant. I totally despise its bizarre assisted in suicide of the "jew" to save the Jews from damnation that only Gentiles embrace. It is so stupid. Ends: I have to take my meds.

Posted by Richard Grimes: r22037@yahoo Deicide/Misanthrope Re. credulous/ignorant Christians on November 8, 2007 10:24 AM