Impact of Swift plant raids
I appreciated Fernando Quintero’s reporting on the impact of the ICE Raids on immigrant and citizen children whose parents were detained at the Swift Plant in Greeley. I was struck by the connections between these families experiences and the stories that I hear routinely as volunteer for an agency that provides legal information to non-citizens held in ICE detention.
Whether non-citizens are detained in workplace raids or pulled over for routine traffic violations, their experience sends a clear message to the immigrant community: their hard work is desired and in demand, but they are also expected to live here invisibly and to accept all the blame for a situation they have not created. (It’s ludicrous to explain the global distribution of resources and jobs on individual families!). While Mr. Quintero’s article offered a view into the heart wrenching experience of these families it also confirmed the ever present blaming and posturing of the anti-immigrant crowd, including enforcement agencies.
Undocumented immigrant workers are to blame for their children’s suffering when they are detained and deported? What a double whammy when the very reason they endure brutal border journeys, dangerous and grueling work conditions, and hostility from the society around them is for well-being of those children. Immigrant families fight like hell to get here and to work here for the love of their kids. I imagine the rest of us would do the very same in their shoes, but I guess it’s easier to blame the families themselves than to accept responsibility for policies that tear families apart.
This letter has not been edited.
They should try to make their home country more to their liking then.....
Posted by on November 9, 2007 02:04 PMoh, how my heart bleeds.......
Posted by RickyLee on November 9, 2007 02:04 PMI wish my mommy and daddy were illegals too. we could get morons like lisa to feel sorry for us they we are here breaking the law and all she wants to do is give us more free stuff.
Posted by on November 9, 2007 02:12 PMLisa when they crossed the border is when the blame begins for them. Sorry, but I don't buy your sob story.
Posted by on November 9, 2007 02:17 PMLisa,
How about you ..take them in ?
It's too bad that illegal immigrants can't find jobs in Mexico but there is nothing I can do about that. My concern is that jobs in American are available for U.S. Citizens.
As far as tearing families apart, I don't see any reason these families can't take their kids back to Mexico with them.
Posted by Ed on November 9, 2007 02:26 PMOh Please! Get the shovel out because its getting deep in here!
Its the individual who is responsible for actions and his family welfare if he chooses to enter this country illegally.
The compassion ran out a long time ago lady!
Dont like how your being treated?
LEAVE!
Posted by Feed-Up with Govt on November 9, 2007 02:26 PMLisa and her bleeding heart types seem to have so much misguided compassion for lawbreakers and criminals than they do for the law abiding citizens of this country. Notice how they always use the poor little children to try and excuse what the parents are doing in breaking the law.
The parents are to blame for putting these innocent kids in that predicament in the first place. I'd like to deport Lisa also. Where do idiots like her come from anyway?
But...What about the children?
Posted by Cracks me up every time... on November 9, 2007 02:53 PMHELP WANTED
SWIFT MEET PACKING, GREELEY CO
illegal aliens need not apply
The majority of Americans are not "anti-immigrant" or against "non-citizens". They are opposed to "illegal aliens". Nice spin, though.
Posted by Stan B on November 9, 2007 02:59 PMtoo bad anonymous at 258 can't spell.....
but thats ok
Another fine example from our Mexican friends:
http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/14553915/detail.html
OK 3:08, nice story but nowhere did it state what country he was from or whether or not he is in the U.S. illegally. Me thinks your bigotry is showing.
Posted by Stan B on November 9, 2007 03:19 PMthe lettwer writer states:
"they are also expected to live here invisibly and to accept all the blame for a situation they have not created"
ARE f'n kidding me ????????
first of all they are NOT EXPECTED to live here at all, and second , this "situation" they are in is 100% all on them and self inflicted!
YOU ARE AN IDIOT!
Posted by Fresh on November 9, 2007 03:31 PMhey white trash please go back to your cotton field and begin singing swing low
Posted by on November 9, 2007 03:59 PMChildish poster at 3:52,
It's NEVER too late! Watch.
Posted by truthy on November 9, 2007 04:06 PMDitto, truthy! 3:52 doesn't have a chance, once all of us get mobilized, and he knows it! It's happening, just look at the recently announced SAVE Act, and at what Oklahoma has done. The tide is turning!
Posted by Bumpskier on November 9, 2007 04:29 PMWhere were the tears when they took jobs and benefits from Americans? Since it was not shown on TV, I guess it did not happen. Let me assure you that American people lost their homes, health insurance, and job to these illegal aliens. American familys were and are torn apart by the invaders.
Posted by Tom on November 9, 2007 04:29 PMLa Raza means "the race". I wonder what race they mean? Sounds a bit racist to me.
American CITIZENS are quite fed up with ILLEGAL ALIENS, and the government better wake up before there's another revolution.
Posted by RickyLee on November 9, 2007 04:41 PMStan B
Are you a betting man? Would you like to wager wether the hispanic mail is illegal or not?
Posted by on November 9, 2007 04:48 PMRick
Watch you mouth....I bet you wouldn't say that to my face.
Now, I wish TPTB would stop saying that illegals do jobs that Americans won't do. We are saying it so much that folks are starting to believe it. I can assure you that millions of American citizen have been displaced by illegal immigrants taking jobs that Americans would do it they had and needed to.
Posted by Angie on November 9, 2007 04:50 PMRick
Watch you mouth....I bet you wouldn't say that to my face.
Now, I wish TPTB would stop saying that illegals do jobs that Americans won't do. We are saying it so much that folks are starting to believe it. I can assure you that millions of American citizen have been displaced by illegal immigrants taking jobs that Americans would do it they had and needed to.
Posted by Angie on November 9, 2007 04:52 PMI wish the pro-illegal crowd and our politians would get a clue what is happening. The average American is getting squeezed. We are suffering reduced wages, losing jobs, health care, livelyhoods, homes, opportunities, and citizens to illegal immigration. The senate select committee stated the the average illegal alien will cost us over $400,000 during their lifetime. We are the most generous people in the history of the world. But enough is enough. Are we compassionate, yes! However, we do not want to be enslaved for the benefit of others.
Posted by Breeze on November 9, 2007 05:50 PMAnyone who doesn't feel compassion for illegal immigrants has a real heart problem, one that a transplant wouldn't correct.
There is no chance at all that those illegal immigrants who have been here some time, have learned English and have no criminal record will be deported in large numbers. The people who want to deprive them of all government help won't get their way, thankfully. So I don't think that there hope to create an underclass such as there is in India will succeed very well. Let's hope not.
Posted by Truth on November 9, 2007 06:14 PMlisa,you are a stupid c--t,rick is another racist liberal.
Posted by Keith on November 9, 2007 06:49 PMLet's keep it simple. Enforce the law. Illegal aliens have support systems in their home countries. Who do you think recieves the billions sent back to their home countries each and every year? It;s all all a scam perpetuated by the likes of the gullible Lisa Kunkels in the USA. Misplaced sympathies got the USA into the mess we must extract ourselves from, from this point forward. Thank you ICE! Bring the heat.
Posted by Ben's Border Street on November 9, 2007 07:19 PMLisa asked; "Undocumented immigrant workers are to blame for their children’s suffering when they are detained and deported?" YES!
The parents put their children in peril. Enablers like Lisa, Truth and the corrupt employers who exploit them only add to the problem.
Posted by on November 9, 2007 07:52 PMTruth,
The people around the state of Oklahoma might disagree. Seems that illegals have decided to get out of the state. As the song states, "Oklahoma is OK."
Now we need a dozen more states to enact such laws and the politicians will see the writing on the wall, and won't need a translator to read it.
Or do you have an alternate explanation for the flood of illegals :LEAVING Oklahoma even before the law kicked in?
Posted by momma y on November 9, 2007 08:12 PMNon-citizen ?? ROFL, the real truth is..illegal alien. Please use the proper wording. If you want to pay for their medical care and feeding YOU pay for them. In the meantime....where's my hip boots?
Posted by Royal Payne on November 9, 2007 08:22 PMMore fine prose from our champion sewermouth Keith. Dude, your momma' would disown you for that mouth.
Posted by Keith and Hank sittin' in a tree, K-I-S-S-I-N-G on November 9, 2007 11:28 PMShame on you Lisa, using "the children" as political footballs and human shields to advance your ill-conceived agenda. You must be following the Democratic party approved code words.
Posted by American Citizen on November 10, 2007 06:07 AMUseing the same logic put forth by Lisa and Quintero's reporting. Any one who has a family and commits a crime should not be charged. This would put undo stress on thier family. It would harm the children. Say What? Thats the logic being put forth.
What part of breaking the law do the open boarder crowd not understand? It is not as simple as saying ILLEGAL immigration is compareable to jay walking. Its apple to oranges. I mena if one person jay walks not much of a problem except to the drivers that had to slam on thier brakes and the one lady who was rear ended because of it.
The problem includes economic and social issues that are complicated. Health care issues. Look at how many recent cases of TB have surfaced in this country do to no screening of these "migrant" (illegal) workers.
TB was once eliminated in this country but now no one can say for sure how many people have been exposed do to infected ILLEGALS working in meat/poultry plants.
Economically American citizens are having to pay thier own way as well as paying for ILLEGALS to boot. Prime examples are the public hospitols that are now bankrupt or fileing bankruptcy because of non payment for services from ILLEGALS, (Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, SanDiego, and in L.A.).
These are hard facts not make believe. Here in Denver we suffer the Cinco de Mayo celebration each year while having to put up with protests on traditional American holidays, ( Columbus, St.Patricks which Denver calls it a multi cultural parade).
How many have had thier car insurance rates go up do to an accident not thier fault. While the Illegal was not ticketed for lack of insurance ( A violation of Colorado law).
The number of deaths do to drunk driving is in a direct relation to the rise in Illegals who drink and drive, not just once but multiple times. These figures are from M.A.D.D. and state and federal statistics. Not made up.
Then there is the sexual preditors who come here knowing full well that a quick trip across the boarder, $50 bucks and a new identity and they can continue thier perverted ways.
I am not saying that this is all Mexican , as there are documented illegals from Europe as well.
Illegal Immigration has to be stopped and the laws have to be enforced.
Posted by The Shadow on November 10, 2007 07:54 AMThe Shadow: "Useing the same logic put forth by Lisa and Quintero's reporting. Any one who has a family and commits a crime should not be charged. This would put undo stress on thier family. It would harm the children. Say What? Thats the logic being put forth."
Of course, neither of them said that illegal immigrants with children should never be charged. But for people like the Shadow, who seem to regard integrity and truth as unimportant, what is important is the rant and rave, not the facts.
Posted by Truth on November 10, 2007 08:13 AM
The Shadow: "What part of breaking the law do the open boarder crowd not understand? "
Of course, no one is advocating open "boarders", or open borders. But for people like the Shadow, who seem to regard integrity and truth as unimportant, what is important is the rant and rave, not the facts.
Posted by Truth on November 10, 2007 08:16 AMThe Shadow: "It is not as simple as saying ILLEGAL immigration is compareable to jay walking. "
Of course, no one is comparing illegal immigrastion to jay walking. But for people like the Shadow, who seem to regard integrity and truth as unimportant, what is important is the rant and rave, not the facts.
Posted by Truth on November 10, 2007 08:19 AMI agree with Shadow that illegal immigration needs to be stopped and that because illegal immigrants are not screened when they cross the border, they bring diseases with them.
Of course, no one is advocating that illegal immigration be allowed to continue But for people like the Shadow, who seem to regard integrity and truth as unimportant, what is important is the rant and rave, not the facts.
With respect to most of the illegal immigrants already here, they need to be screened. Others need to be deported.
Posted by Truth on November 10, 2007 08:27 AMShadow: "Economically American citizens are having to pay thier own way as well as paying for ILLEGALS to boot."
There is considerable debate about the cost of illegal immigration. But to say that the illegal immigrants do not pay any of their own way is, of course, a bald face lie. But for people like the Shadow, who seem to regard integrity and truth as unimportant, what is important is the rant and rave, not the facts.
Posted by Truth on November 10, 2007 08:34 AMInteresting. Shadow doesn't state any figures. But he says "These figures [the ones Shadow never states] are from M.A.D.D. and state and federal statistics. Not made up."
It's obvious that Shadow's "thinking" process is highly corrupted.
Posted by Truth on November 10, 2007 08:38 AMShadow: "Here in Denver we suffer the Cinco de Mayo celebration each year".
It's obvious that Shadow is a very dishonest person who will say just about anything, regardless of how fictional it is, to support his bias.
Posted by Truth on November 10, 2007 08:41 AM"But for people like the Shadow, who seem to regard integrity and truth as unimportant, what is important is the rant and rave, not the facts."
It took the great pontificator, the arbiter of who should or should not be deported, four times repeating this mantra to prove his point -- his rant and rave is more important than the underlying argument.
Posted by on November 10, 2007 08:42 AMso all of you wonders who think the illegals are working hard to be here why does the liberal government print forms in spanish and why do we have bilingual make that spanish in public schools? why only spanish and not some other lanugages? oh wait most of them come here legally.
good ole hick and ditter really want the mail in vote so nobody will see how many illegals they have signed up to vote for more freebees.
Truth,
Any attempt to make life easier for the illegals would act as a magnet for other illegals. We need to reverse the polarity and drive them back instead of attaching more.
Take away the jobs and welfare and they will leave. To offset any loss of labor, allow the immigrants who have been waiting patiently to enter legally. We welcome law-biding legal immigrants and there are plenty of them out there.
Posted by jgd777 on November 10, 2007 08:55 AMShadow: "Then there is the sexual preditors who come here knowing full well that a quick trip across the boarder, $50 bucks and a new identity and they can continue thier perverted ways."
I agree that one of the many reasons we should put a stop to illegal immigration is the presence of predators and other criminals among them.
That is likely one of the reasons no one I or Shadow knows of wants open borders or a continuation of illegal immigration. But recognizing that simple fact would interfere with Shadow's desire tor rant and rave, so he just ignores it.
What about the illegal immigrants already here? Those who have committed criminal acts other than crossing the border, whether here or in their home country, should be deported or jailed.
Posted by Truth on November 10, 2007 09:21 AMLike using fake government documents?
Posted by on November 10, 2007 09:45 AMIsn't it wonderful the way that "Truth" not only disagrees with others on these boards, but adds that extra touch of always being dismissive of the other's integrity while throwing a harpoon or two impugning the other's character? By pontificating the "truth as seen by Truth as the Absolute Truth", he effectively diminishes and restricts open discourse in most blogs that he graces with his superior wisdom and insight.
Perhaps a little less harpooning and divisiveness on these boards would promote more actual discourse and true exchange of ideas.
And "Truth" isn't the only guilty party -- look at the likes of "Keith" (and many similar to him from both ends of the spectrum) and his childish name calling; just a less polished "Truth" in reality.
Of course, some individuals can only find self gratification through insulting and ridiculing others; so I would imagine that these boards will continue to "go south" while the children play their insulting games rather than encourage and seek objective discourse and exchange of philosophies.
Posted by on November 10, 2007 09:45 AMThe main reason we can't solve the illegal alien problem is because the Democrats want their vote.As you will see when Hillary becomes president and the Democrats hold the House and Senate they will legalize all the illegals.This will give them a voting base that could keep them in power for decades to come.The Democrats do care about the US and will do whatever it take to destroy it.
Posted by An American on November 10, 2007 09:56 AMAn American,
I think you're right. It's disturbing to see what the future holds. Too bad people like Lisa and all the other bleeding hearts can't think or see that far, but you're right , we need laws changed and fast.
The truth is Lisa IS implying that we should not charge illegals or at least the ones with children! I pay my own way (all of it!) why should I be expected to pay ANY of an illegals way?
jgd777, I completely agree.
Lisa is a good example of the left coddling common criminals. The excuses are the same, it’s America’s fault. A capitalist system whom built it’s wealth on the blood and sweat by exploiting the poor, forcing Mexican and other south-American citizens into unacceptable working conditions, creating a system of modern day slaves in a country already having a checkered past with slaves. I agree, this must stop. So, do the right thing and gather them all up and send them home for their own good, Lisa. Today!
Posted by Uno on November 10, 2007 11:37 AMMost of the time Truth is a pompous (sp?) arse. Ok all the time.
BUT I think he is agreeing with most of you and disagreeing with Liberal Lisa. Isn't that a good thing?
He is right that he doesn't rant and rave he just belittles others opinions. Some need to do that to make themselves feel important.
Posted by on November 10, 2007 11:39 AMAnon 09:45 AM
"Perhaps a little less harpooning and divisiveness on these boards would promote more actual discourse and true exchange of ideas."
"Of course, some individuals can only find self gratification through insulting and ridiculing others; so I would imagine that these boards will continue to "go south" while the children play their insulting games rather than encourage and seek objective discourse and exchange of philosophies."
Two very astute observations. Detractors will reply that you should develop a "thick skin" or stay off the boards. However, even with a thick skin it becomes almost a futile venture to have an honest discourse while dancing around the childish behaviors of those who are either seeking self aggrandizement through impugning others; or, those who only parrot a political/social position they don't have a personal grasp of, and accentuate their submission with infantile name calling and ad hominem attacks.
Still, some very good ideas and reinforced postulations of positions can be found amidst the distractions. I guess that's why I've become more of a reader than poster -- it's more productive to pick and choose the gems from the garbage than it is to be forced into responding to nonsensical pontifications and ad hominem attacks.
Posted by mongoose on November 10, 2007 12:00 PMRe. Keith: Please moderator! Lisa does not deserve the invective from Keith. Give him the boot. The kid is despicable, reprehensible, and repugnant .... Please.
Posted by JVB on November 10, 2007 12:02 PMI didn’t catch this comment from Truth earlier “There is considerable debate about the cost of illegal immigration. But to say that the illegal immigrants do not pay any of their own way is, of course, a bald face lie.” – so, which one is it Truth? Either you know something the rest of us don’t and you won’t tell, or simply (and more likely) you lie when calling others liars.
Posted by Uno on November 10, 2007 12:19 PMUno -- re Truth: he lies. His positions are the only ones that count in his opinion, so like Keith, An American, etc., everyone else is a liar, intentionally distorting the truth or fabricating facts since they disagree with him.
Like Mongoose above, I've come to the point where it's barely worth the effort to post anymore, except I seldom read either. As soon as I run into a thread like this with truth, rick, keith, etc., I get disgusted and move on to more objective websites.
It's too bad...this used to be a fun and informative site.
CA
They can't argue facts because facts are against them. All they have left to argue is compassion and the Catholic Church is behind them on this.
I'm glad to see so many Americans aren't falling for their "poor little me" stance.
We've had more than enough.
Posted by Sharleen Nicholson on November 10, 2007 01:06 PMLisa, the jig is up.
Posted by American Citizens on November 10, 2007 04:55 PMKeith is using his right to free speech. Let's censor him because we don't like his opinions. He scares us.
Posted by Liberal Hypocrites on November 10, 2007 05:01 PMI guess celebrating diversity doesn't include Keith.
Posted by PC is DEAD on November 10, 2007 05:03 PMLisa-back in my 20s, I did not have children for the single reason that I did not have the money to cover food and health care for anyone but myself. Therefore, I did not have children until I was able to support them 100%. I don't buy the sob story that you are selling. If you can't feed em, don't breed em. Simple as that.
Posted by Smacky on November 11, 2007 08:56 AMJVB,Is a Democrat that is why he wants Keith silenced.It is always the Democrats that call for the taking away of our freedoms.They only stand up for illegal alien and terrorist freedoms.I think we get the picture!!!
Posted by An American on November 11, 2007 09:17 AM"Re. Keith: Please moderator! Lisa does not deserve the invective from Keith. Give him the boot. The kid is despicable, reprehensible, and repugnant .... Please."Posted by JVB on November 10, 2007 12:02 PM
Why does it seem to be predominately those of the "left persuasion" who seem to advocate censorship?
As despicable as keith and those like him in vocabulary seem, censorship of anyone is a very undesirable start down the slippery slope...
Posted by on November 11, 2007 10:13 AMAttention "white trashe is worse that illegal criminal aliens... you are ignorant
you are exactally what's wrong with this country - for as long as we are a soverign nation - which by the looks of the invasion going is is about 5 more years.
Anyone for illegals live in an area where they do not have to compete with illegals - for services such as education and health care. For those that do support move to Commerce City and enroll your child in a public school there. HALF the day is spent translating english to spanish. and people wonder why test scores are falling?? "DUH....it's the illegals stupid"
Posted by Pam on November 11, 2007 12:10 PMDear President Bush
I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.
I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.
So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Vicente Fox, that I'm on my way over. Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:
1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flagpole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from
President Fox to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my housetop, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don't enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.
I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that President Fox won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.
However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.
Thank you so much for your kind help.
Posted by Heidi on November 11, 2007 12:13 PMWe should let everyone in any prison in the USA out. The family of those prisoners are suffering without ther Dad, brother etc. The incarceration of their family members is causing emotional distress - it does not matter if they broke the law. Free them all immediately. We can't pick and choose wich laws to enforce, therefore anyone that has comitted a criminal act should be free, given their own television and radio stations, free food (love seeing all the free formula diapers, cheese and milk illegals get then they crawl out of the store and hop in a shinney new suburban) after all the guy in jail that robbed a 7-11 was only looking for a better life for his family.
ENFORCE OUR LAWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what is so friggin hard to understad about that??
Vote Salzar out by the way - he is just importing votes for himself - he is one greezy corrupt politician but then again all of them are
Jamye,
I've been saying the same thing. Thanks
for the post.
Kunkel, that is just.... well, I can't even think of how to describe your post. I got late onto this bandwagon, and a lot of what I wanted to say has been said (by BOTH sides). You said "...I imagine the rest of us would do the very same in their shoes,..." I was in their shoes - poor, uneducated. I DIDN'T do the same however - I got an education instead of birthin' them babies. How stupid do you have to be to add another mouth when you can't fill your own?
The poster who said that it was the people demanding Wal-mart like "Low Prices all the time" is also correct. If American citizens were paid a living wage commensurate to doing this work, most of you people couldn't afford all the luxuries you've become used to flowing from our fields and sweatshops overseas. How much to you want to give up to end illigal immigration? Hmmmm?
Truth, you’re a very funny guy, no doubt you’re just being sarcastic.
But, still didn’t answer my question. Does illegal immigrants cost the US taxpayers or not?
And if you don’t know for sure, why did you make this statement “But to say that the illegal immigrants do not pay any of their own way is, of course, a bald face lie.”
And why did you say this “Saying that there is a debate on the subject is a simple factual statement. To call it a lie, as Uno does, is either being untruthful or ignorant.” –who was calling you a liar on the debate going on, where did you get that? I said “you lie when calling others liars.” In reference to your “bold face lie”. -comment. If you gonna call others bold faced liars, than better have solid evidence to back it up, not just a “considerable debate”.
Uno, you and I must have a completely different understanding of the English language.
When you say "“you lie when calling others liars.” you are calling the person to whom that is addressed a liar.
To say that illegal immigrants don't pay any of their own way is, as I said, to ignore the fact that they do pay some part of their own way, because they use the wages they earn to pay some part of their own way. The truth of that statement should be obvious. You won't find any of the major organizations which are concerned about the cost of illegal immigration denying that illegal immigrants do work, get paid and use all or some part of that pay to buy the necessities of life.
While you say little about what you yourself believe about the cost, I presume that you think that the illegal immigrants do not pay anything toward their own sustenance. That is a preposterous notion.
Do I know what the cost is? Of course not. Nobody does. It is a figure that can only be estimated. Just about all of the figures that have to do with just an estimation are themselves estimates. It is a pure propaganda statement.
The Center for Immigration Studies said in the opening paragraph of its study: "This study is one of the first to estimate the total impact of illegal immigration on the federal budget."
FAIR said about the Huddle study: "Because the number of illegal aliens can only be estimated, similarly the fiscal cost (government budget outlays) for those aliens can only be estimated. "
"Determining the costs to hospitals and taxpayers in general for providing service to illegal immigrants apparently is as difficult to calculate as stopping them from sneaking over the border."
"Ultimately, the true cost-benefit ratio behind illegal immigration is so complex that determining it is nearly impossible. But one thing is certain: Not determining it will prove most costly of all."
I can't imagine anyone who has lived in the United States the last few years claiming, as I presume you do, that there is no debate going on in just about every aspect of the immigration debate, including the cost of illegal immigration.
You are all fool's,spewing personal bigot opinion's like it really matter's to those who disagree.Wake up and smell the tamales!!!!!!! You all are about twenty years too late on the immigrate issue... No one rules forever,not even you manifest destiny believing fools...Spanish is the language of the future,learn or get left behind....Your snow white daughters cannot resist the young latin lover across the street,just read the news and you'll see where the white teacher took off with the young mexican student........OH MY GOD !!!!!!!!!!! They had sex and are making more mexican babies....You're being over-run by mexican babies and your daughters are helping...... I cannot wait to read your ranting response but,try to be a little more original.......Try something new though.!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by here first on November 11, 2007 09:00 PMTruth, since you like to presume so much about me, I’ll do the same about you.
So when you say “they pay some part of their own way”, are you saying they pay for hospital visits, health insurance, car insurance, schooling their children, paying into SS, state and federal taxes, property taxes, Medicaid and Medicare, Denver city tax if they work in Denver, pay for Spanish translators, pay for all the legal costs and fines, like the rest of us have to?
Or you saying that when they shop at Goodwill or Walmart and pay sales tax, or buy gas and food and pay taxes on those, and wire the rest back to Mexico more than covers the expenses they incur? Looks to me you are childishly naive.
Here first, I have to agree with what you saying, and you got people like Lisa and Truth helping right alone turning the USA into a third world trash dump country.
Posted by Uno on November 11, 2007 10:12 PMOK,Truth wants a little charity and mercy for the illegals,and is clearly pained that others take a much less charitable and much angrier view. I think we'll be a little more inclined towards charitableness when we see more of the hardworking Mexicans currently here illegally start to take all their talent home and use it to help things out down there.Mexico sure could use a little of that Yankee ingenuity their expatriates here have to come up with every day getting by in an increasingly hostile country.
Maybe we should be thinking about how to help turn all that Cinco de Mayo Mexopatriotism towards the country that needs it the most.
Great responses Everyone. We need to vote out every politician that supports Illegals over American workers. How do we start a boycott of swift meat pack. companys?
Posted by FW on November 12, 2007 03:37 AMWe need to stop illegal immigration. We need to not undertake any mass deportation. We need to realize that most of the illegal immigrants who have been here for some time will continue to be here and instead of trying to turn them into a lower caste we need to help them assimilate, which means we need to turn a deaf ear to those who spew their hatred of the illegal immigrants. We need to admit that our economy invited these desperate and impoverished people to come here to seek a better life. When illegal immigrants are picked up, we need to be sure that significant steps are taken to reduce the stress on their children as much as possible.
Posted by Truth on November 12, 2007 06:58 AMAll I know is something has got to change. We MUST control our borders!
Posted by truthy on November 12, 2007 07:10 AMHow is it my responsibility to provide for someone who made a choice to have children they could not provide for?
Posted by on November 12, 2007 07:53 AMCompassionate Conservative
Posted by Oxymoron on November 12, 2007 07:58 AMThere are many countries who have the attitude of not caring about children of parents who had them but could not provide adequately for them. They are called third world countries.
Posted by Truth on November 12, 2007 07:59 AMSomeone here said,
"If ya can't feed it, don't breed it."
There was more wisdom in that than many of long, overly verbose, attempts at appearing intellegent that infest these comments.
Posted by Truthy on November 12, 2007 07:59 AMTruth-point well taken about treating people with a little goodness and mercy, but all the folks around here who are angry at the illegals are equally as angry about the governmental "deaf ear" that has already been turned to their concerns on this matter.I think the public has had all the social work it can stand and is much more than ready for some law and order.
Posted by Jimminy on November 12, 2007 08:24 AMHere's another view of those who take a soft approach.
Two social workers had just left the welfare office on their way home when they came upon a man lying unconscious in a pool of blood on the sidewalk,covered with bruises and lacerations-obviously beaten nearly to death.One social worker said to the other "Look at that poor man.Whoever did this to him must really need our help".
My post about third world countries was incorrect. Even third world governments do make some effort to help children of parents who could not take care of them. You can somewhat correlate how successful a country is by the efforts it makes to take care of its most vulnerable.
"If you can't feed it, don't breed it". An offshoot of that is that poor people should not have kids. Does truthy think there should be a law prohibiting some people from having kids? Does he think that if someone who can't take care of a kid has one anyway that we should discard that kid into the criminal world or into street gangs? We already do a pretty good job of that. Do we want to increase the criminal population or decrease it?
It would be a different world if we could just get everybody to do things our way. But of course that is not the world we live in. While we need to try to get people to be more responsible, we need also to deal with the fact that many won't. And we also need to deal with the fact that we have a society in which it is difficult for many people to afford one of life's most important gifts, that of having a family. If there are a lot of poor people who can't afford to have a family, there is something bad wrong with our society, with our government. with people's attitude toward the poor. Unless a person is extremely bigoted against the poor, he will recognize that there are millions of good, hard-working poor people. To have a society in which they cannot afford to have a family is wrong.
Posted by Truth on November 12, 2007 09:02 AMJimminy, that is a funny story. It is also not unlike the cartoons and jokes we used to hear which likened all blacks to the ones doing things wrong.
Posted by Truth on November 12, 2007 09:06 AMJimminy, that is a funny story. It is also not unlike the cartoons and jokes we used to hear which likened all blacks to the ones doing things wrong.
Posted by Truth on November 12, 2007 09:07 AMIllegal aliens=Murder,rape,committing every type of horrendous criminal actions imaginable against American citizens.
Illegal aliens=drug resistant diseases TB,HEPATITUS A-B-C plus antibiotic resistant STAPH,(illegal aliens children in our school environments are now exposing and killing American school children!) ECOLI, how many people are getting sick from bad produce grown in the U.S. and harvested by illegals. Plus, many more diseases not yet identified by CDC. According to CDC- "Mexicans are the largest ethnic group to carry TB" which is contagious of course. Don't believe that statement? look it up! The CDC has it posted on their website!!! Enjoy that fast food they hand to you.
Illegal aliens= The displacement of millions of American workers resulting in financial hardships to American citizens.
Illegal aliens (Mexico)=Vicious MS13 gang members who slime the streets with their brand of third world atrocities! Lets not forget to mention the drugs they sneak into this country and the violence that comes in with them.
Illegal aliens=trashed neighborhoods and overcrowded American schools,hospitals,social services agencies,etc,etc,etc!!
Illegal aliens=An enormous, unwanted, toxic, expensive, burden to the American people.
What's to like about being victimized by a criminal in your own home? Nothing!!
Attrition through enforcement!!!
Thrusting pejoratives for posting an opinion is unacceptable; Keith is screaming fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire and that is impermissible. Lisa should be protected from the macho-male-socio-pathic degenerate such as Keith. There are many who would protect Keith's freedom of speech; however, if he ever spoke that way to my daughter, ____________________ that's what I would do to him.
Posted by JVB on November 12, 2007 09:53 AMWell,we seem to be drifting off topic again.This is about illegals,not poverty,although conventional wisdom holds correctly that the presence of so many illegals does exacerbate poverty in the USA.
What exacerbates poverty more is the set of circumstances to which"If you can't feed it don't breed it" is a reaction.
Truth,my ex-colleagues(and my boss) at the Welfare Department HATED my social worker joke.They hated even more a little sticker I put on my file cabinet at the office.The sticker said: "I'm with the government and I'm here to help you".
Truth,
"While we need to try to get people to be more responsible, we need also to deal with the fact that many won't."
There are things in this world called "natural consequences" and when ever people are not required to suffer them, then we are teaching them there are "no" consequences.
We are teaching our children and general public there are no "natural consequences" to their actions. If they don't attend school or are lazy and get terrible grades, it makes no difference they will still graduate. Drop out of school, no problem we have a safety net for you (welfare system). Our welfare system actually rewards families with increased benefits based on the number of children they have, more children, more benefits.
"If you can't feed it, don't breed it". An offshoot of that is that poor people should not have kids. Does truthy think there should be a law prohibiting some people from having kids?
Should it be illegal for the poor to have a family, no, however when you reach a point where you can no longer support your family then it is time to stop increasing the number of children you have.
We had two children because that is what we could realistically afford, I would have loved the have 5 or 6 more and have the government pay their expenses.
When a family is receiving welfare benefits, any additional children should lower their benefits and not increase them. There should be no maternity benefits for a family receiving welfare benefits, maybe that would get those families to think twice about whether or not they want to bring another child into this world.
I can live with the idea of my tax money going to help our own citizens who may have had a temporary setback, however when I hear about career welfare recipients and illegal immigrates receiving them, that is where I draw the line. You can call that not being compassionate, I call it requiring people to suffer natural consequences for their actions.
JVB-Keith last posted 3 days ago.Seems like a long delay in responding.
Does Lisa Kunkel need protection from being flamed? That's her call.If she,or you(on your own behalf or your daughter's) or Keith feels menaced,it's legal to carry a gun.
I do have to say,though, that were you to call ME a macho-male-sociopathic degenerate,I too would call you a c#nt.
"...think there should be a law prohibiting some people from having kids?"
No, that's were personal responsibility should come into play. Now, those dropping babies almost randomly know that they will receive not only free medical care but life long support -- personal responsibility is ignored.
"We need to admit that our economy invited these desperate and impoverished people to come here to seek a better life."
In much the same manner as the plethora of nice cars in this country invite car jackings and grand theft auto as the people who commit such "crimes" are only trying to better themselves and live a better life.
"When illegal immigrants are picked up, we need to be sure that significant steps are taken to reduce the stress on their children as much as possible."
If the parents weren't illegal immigrants they wouldn't be picked up. The parents put their children in peril, not this country. The parents, if they choose to enter this country and work illegally, should make arrangements with friends, relatives or neighbors to care for their kids if they are busted for being illegal immigrants.> Or, safer yet, they should pack up and return to their country of origin -- then, if they still want to work in this country for a "better life", they can apply for legal admission and become welcomed legal immigrants where they wouldn't have to worry about arrests and deportation.
Posted by mongoose on November 12, 2007 11:08 AMTruth,
Your heart is in the right place, but your brain is not fully engaged.
I hope one day it becomes socially unacceptable to make bad choices over and over again.
Humans have survived for as long as we have because we can adapt and overcome hardship. Social entitlement programs on such massive scales do not improve humanity because they remove the dignity of personal accomplisment.
In my opinion, it is inhumane to foster a society were people can actually be rewarded for making poor choices repeatedly.
There are people of genuine need. But they are actually few in number.
In my years on this earth I have seen many, many people who play the system just so they won't have to work or contribute anything at all to our civilization.
These people take advantage of people like you who would gladly take things from the rest of us and give it to them. You are the enabler of the lazy and the selfish.
"In my opinion, it is inhumane to foster a society were people can actually be rewarded for making poor choices repeatedly."
The children of illegal immigrants did not make any choices, bad or good. Is treating them with compassion really inhumane?
Posted by Truth on November 12, 2007 12:34 PMYep, truthy, EXACTLY!!!
Posted by RickyLee on November 12, 2007 12:34 PMChildren are our future. How we treat them has a lot to do with how we treat our future. We don't provide for children solely for their sake. We also provide for them for our sake. It's much more economical to provide for them outside of prison.
Posted by Truth on November 12, 2007 12:37 PM"It's much more economical to provide for them outside of prison."
Even cheaper if their parent's raised them in the own country...
Posted by on November 12, 2007 12:53 PMOUR children,not theirs, are our future.I think it ill-advised even to LOOK like you'd put somebody else's first.
Posted by Jimminy on November 12, 2007 02:12 PM"Even cheaper if their parent's raised them in the own country.."
Now, back to reality.
"OUR children,not theirs, are our future.I think it ill-advised even to LOOK like you'd put somebody else's first."
The children who live here are our future for better or worse, whether we like it or not, whether they belong to us or somebody else. Children who end up in gangs or prisons are bad for society, regardless of who they belong to.
Posted by Truth on November 12, 2007 04:42 PMAll the more reason to SECURE THE BORDERS FIRST, before any amnesty or any
other handouts are considered.
If you have a pipe break in your house, do you try to fix the broken pipe first, or do you shut off the main valve, then fix the pipe?
It's pretty damn simple, people. American CITIZENS are fed up with ILLEGAL aliens. All these crappy proposals of amnesty, the
DREAM (nightmare) ACT have been shot down because AMERICAN CITIZENS don't believe the liars in our government when they claim they'll secure the borders while lumping it in with all the other garbage handouts.
Here's a novel idea....let's SECURE THE BORDERS, then we'll talk about how to deal with the tens of millions of squatters already here.
Turn off the water main BEFORE you fix the pipe. Why is this such a difficult concept? It's what the majority of Americans want, but our lying, bend-over-for-the-illegals politicians can't seem to get the idea.
Time for another revolution....well past time, they'll get the idea then.
Posted by RickyLee on November 12, 2007 04:56 PMThese children will never be accepted by American society. Education is a dirty word to them. Mexico offers 6th grade education only!! More if you have the money to pay. The illegals have created a sub-culture of poverty for themselves and their children in the U.S. Their parents refuse to learn English, that's a recipe for failure in itself. These offspring of Mexican citizens are not the future of America! They will be a failure in America and more than likely end up in one of our prisons!
Walk into any store nowdays and you will see a pregnant illegal with her 5 other kids yelling at them in (you guess it!) Spanish!!!!
totally disgusting!!!
"...children who live here are our future for better or worse, whether we like it or not, whether they belong to us or somebody else"
Not if you kick them out along with the breeders who had them...
Posted by on November 12, 2007 05:25 PMI don't get why some think the U.S. should help take care of other countries problems and if we aren't willing then we (U.S.) are the bad, bigot, heartless people; since 2000 we have had an average of about 700,000 legal immigrants come here annually; how many would be enough?
Mexico, for instance has many resources within its borders, why can't they be more competitve economically?
"Not if you kick them out along with the breeders who had them...
Posted by on November 12, 2007 05:25 PM"
Now, back to reality. Most of them will never be deported.
Posted by Truth on November 12, 2007 07:29 PMOxymoron, 7:58
compassionate conservative ?
For all the Americans ?
Why.thank you.!
Oxymoron
Intelligent liberal
Posted by on November 12, 2007 09:17 PMTruth,
"Now, back to reality. Most of them will never be deported."
At least not if you have your way. You won't be happy until they all can bring over their spouses, children, grandparents, aunts, uncle, cousins, nieces, nephews, friends, and neighbors, Did I forget any?
You may believe this battle is over, but I am willing to bet it is just beginning. Americans are getting tired of this lawlessness and our open borders.
Posted by jgd777 on November 12, 2007 09:25 PMHere First.,
If you're a native American indian you are here first, if not, if you're a Mexican you're not
here first!! Sounds like you're on that
drug from Cali again..snow white daughters?
Where's the pink rabbits, pigs you usually see?
Yes,I am native american and, if only we had an immigration policy way back in the day you and your ilk would still be on the other side of the ocean...You pilgrams have a lot of nerve calling mexicans wetbacks !!!!!!!!!! I will say it again,,,,no one rules forever
Posted by here first on November 13, 2007 01:03 AMThat's right, the bleeding-heart, cry baby,
bend-over-for-the-illegals cannot rule forever.
TIME FOR ANOTHER REVOLUTION
Posted by RickyLee on November 13, 2007 06:09 AMhere first,
Not sleeping well? You often post between 1:00 and 3:00 am. You like the dark don't you?
Posted by truthy on November 13, 2007 06:17 AMMy turn, jdg. You hate not just Mexicans but also Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, blacks, Japanese, French and spinach, and you were turned down by that sexy Mexican senorita. Now, your turn again.
Posted by Truth on November 13, 2007 07:08 AM"...jdg. You hate not just Mexicans but also Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, blacks, Japanese, French and spinach, and you were turned down by that sexy Mexican senorita."
Now we're back to the ad hominem attacks, throwing impugning harpoons and slander to support positions...congratulations; made your point very well.
Posted by on November 13, 2007 10:44 AMHere First,
I asked if you were Native American
INDIAN... not just native American, I"M
a Native American. But have indian blood
thru the generations.
Illegals will self-deport if no jobs,housing,or free services are available to them!!
Attrition through enforcement!!!
Posted by A on November 13, 2007 11:05 AM" "...jdg. You hate not just Mexicans but also Jews, Catholics, Protestants, Hindus, blacks, Japanese, French and spinach, and you were turned down by that sexy Mexican senorita."
Now we're back to the ad hominem attacks, throwing impugning harpoons and slander to support positions...congratulations; made your point very well.
Posted by on November 13, 2007 10:44 AM"
You just don't get it, do you? Jdg and I have this little game going. First he puts things in my mouth that I didn't say. Then I put things in his mouth that he didn't say, such as that above. We really don't mean no harm to anyone. We're just a couple of guys who like to have fun. It's his turn next. See, you have to read this post in context with the preceding ones by jdg and me. We're kind of a comic strip to inject a little entertainment in the forum. Come on, where is your sense of humor?
Posted by Truth on November 13, 2007 11:12 AMJay
It most be horrible when someone actually states clearly what you are fighting for.
I "hate" no one (maybe a few exceptions) however I do despise people who choose to consistently break the law, and the people who continue to back their right to do so. What I truly despise is the constant pursuit by these naysayers attempting to prove these same people breaking the law deserve to be supported by our tax money and should be given special privileges
Anyone reading these post and has an open mind can clearly see you are for amnesty, open borders, freebies given to the illegals, and any other benefits that you can think of.
You are very clear about wanting to use other people's tax money to support your "compassion" for the illegals.
Yes, "truth", VERY clear.
NOT MY TAX DOLLARS YOU BLEEDING-HEART CRY BABY.
It's time for another revolution.
Posted by RickyLee on November 13, 2007 12:26 PMwhite trash is worse than illegal immigrants, every time!
You played hockey before the mandatory helmet rule, didn't you?
Posted by jgd777 on November 13, 2007 05:11 PMYou mean the sexless pregnant Mexican puta with the sharpie eyebrows don't you truth? Maybe one out of 100 million Mexican women have any good looks they are usually pregnant by nine years old and an old used up hag with 10 kids by the time they turn 15.
Posted by on November 13, 2007 05:28 PM4:44,
IS THAT ALL YOU HAVE!
YOU FIGHT LIKE A GIRL!!
Posted by RickyLees Fan on November 13, 2007 06:46 PMjgd777
Isn't it time for you to get off the free public library computer and go out and pick some cabbage or something?
Ugh,
I would but some damn illegal stole my job.
I am guessing maybe you were one of those hockey players, bet you wish you had worn that helmet. Then again maybe your brains were so scrambled you can' think straight anymore.
Posted by jgd777 on November 14, 2007 09:41 AMI don't shop at Wal-Mart and I have no children, unlike the many illegal alien baby machines.
Tell us, 4:44 what does your stupid, worthless, piece of sh*t, moron ass think of the author of this letter? Your posts belie your infinite intelligence, by all means enlighten us some more. Then, stop by my double-wide trailer
for a double-dose of double 00 buckshot.
You ain't got the cojones,
chickensh*t!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Mexican-American resents footing the bill
Monday, October 22 at 12:01 AM
I am a person of Hispanic descent and I have to tell you that it makes me angry that the other persons of Hispanic descent are expecting us as taxpayers to foot the bill for the education of their children in a bilingual school.
That doubles the expense of educating children. Why is it up to us to interpret the English language for these folks? If the parents of the children would educate themselves prior to coming to our country, perhaps it wouldn’t be as expensive for the schools and maybe then more schools could remain open.
It’s wrong for immigrants who come to this country to expect us to foot the bill for their every need! So let’s not blame the school district for the problems; how about we look in the mirror!
We can’t allow this abuse of our good graces and our programs that were designed for the American people to continue.
I am Mexican myself, however my family came here legally and assimilated to the American way of life including speaking the language of the land — English. If immigrants really want to contribute to America, that would be a good place to start!
Anthony Garcia, Castle Rock
Posted by RickyLee on November 14, 2007 12:18 PM4:44=hoto.
Posted by RickyLee on November 14, 2007 12:21 PMKisses ? = Maricon
Posted by RickyLees Fan on November 14, 2007 01:24 PMYou probably won't recognize your mom when you get home, I shaved her back....
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!
Enlighten us some more with your wisdom! You represent the illegal-alien-lovers VERY well!
You should be the spokes-person for the open-borders crowd; you represent their position so very eloquently!!!
Please, continue....
Posted by RickyLee on November 14, 2007 02:25 PMDespite your being edited out, I'm sure you're still reading MY posts, so...
I think YOU should be Hillary Clinton's campaign manager! It's uncanny how parallel
you two's positions are! Bouyed by your amazing command of wit and prose, she'll
go far!!!
Kisses ? = Maricon WAS FOR 4:44
Posted by on November 14, 2007 05:11 PMA,
Fox 31 News just showed hotels that employed Mexican maids and they didn't
wash the drinking glasses, hidden camera
caught them all. They just rinced the glasses
, or sprayed somekind of windex to clean them, the official from CDC mentioned all of your above diseases..you mention. GROSS
isn't it!