- Gov. Ritter’s executive order for unions
- When will people be held accountable?
- Noisy neighbors are inconsiderate
- Passage of A through I good for children
- Congrats to Michael Mukasey
- Modifications to Title VII
- Election counting problems
- Homeless veterans
- Pakistan the most dangerous
- Fair elections need to be implemented
Torture should not be allowed
First, torture is ineffective as a tool for getting accurate information.
Torture victims (and they ARE VICTIMS) tell their interrogators whatever they think those interrogators want to hear.
Second, many of those the US has tortured or has sent to other countries to be tortured are COMPLETELY INNOCENT. Many — if not most, if not almost all — of those tortured by the United States have indeed turned out to not be terrorists or to have any knowlege of terrorist operations.
And, oh yeah, those that are innocent are likely to be tortured MORE, since they do not have the right answers to satisfy their interrogators.
Third, America’s use of torture gives a huge propaganda victory to America’s enemies.
Fourth, allowing the use of torture sets a precedent which will likely lead to US soldiers being tortured by the enemy.
And fifth, most importantly, torture is WRONG and torture is EVIL, even when it is carried out against people who are truly guilty, let alone when it is used against possibly innocent people, many of which have never had a proper trial and often have not even had charges filed against them.
It is safe to say that those who torture are monsters, plain and simple.
And those that even support torture politically are guilty of inhumanity at best.
America USED to be dedicated, as it should have been, to outlawing torture around the world. I cannot believe we have sunk so low as to allow one of the most vile of human acts that can be carried out against another person to be done in our names.
This letter has not been edited.
If torture is wrong, why did RMN publish this letter?
Posted by truthy on November 14, 2007 02:16 PMnow how do you know
Second, many of those the US has tortured or has sent to other countries to be tortured are COMPLETELY INNOCENT. Many — if not most, if not almost all — of those tortured by the United States have indeed turned out to not be terrorists or to have any knowlege of terrorist operations.
any of that to be true? did media matters tell you this or did some other hate america group tell you this?
sure hope you never need the safety of one of the monsters you talk of. do you include the cops in this category?
I still say we should waterboard both Bush and Cheney and then ask them whether or not it was torture. We could get to real details on the run up to the war.
Posted by just sayin' on November 14, 2007 02:39 PMI like the idea off waterboarding Bush and Cheney. Heck, lets do Keith, Hank and An American while we are at it.
Posted by on November 14, 2007 03:02 PMLeroy is another typical liberal friend of the terrorists and our enemies. What is this phony liberal pre-occupation with this waterboarding interrogation technique that is far more better than those murders and real torturer's deserve? Leroy and his liberal cronies would rather have the terrorists keep their secret plots and blow up more Americans. Not one terrorist act has happened on American soil since 9/11because of these and the Homeland Security measures and that just burns the left to no end. Good!
Posted by on November 14, 2007 03:02 PMInterrogation techniques--what you call "torture"--are essential in time of war. If you knew the facts, you would hardly be excoriating our troops for your own political gain.
Posted by Brian Stuckey on November 14, 2007 03:05 PMWhat about the anthrax attacks, 3:02?
Did we catch the guy that did that?
Posted by on November 14, 2007 03:21 PMBrian "Steno" Stuckey emitted the following bile:
"Interrogation techniques--what you call "torture"--are essential in time of war. If you knew the facts, you would hardly be excoriating our troops for your own political gain."
"Excoriating our troops"??? Brian, why do you hate American values? Our troops aren't responsible for the decisions by civilian leadership. It is you who implies that our troops are lawbreakers. I would like you to volunteer yourself to be water-boarded so at least you can say you "knew the facts" before you showed your utter contempt for the rule of law by advocating torture.
You probably call yourself a Christian too. What a piece of work you are, you heartless monster.
Posted by Charles B on November 14, 2007 03:22 PMleroy and the other anti american progressive liberal extreme left just can not stand it that the war is going our way and we are winning. you would never know that by reading what the libs put out in the papers though as it makes them look like the dumb asses they really are.
Posted by on November 14, 2007 03:24 PMDefine winning!
Is that just less deaths this month?
What do we win?
How do we know when we've won?
Charles B.
You're a fake humanitarian and we already know you're not a Christian. That cracks me up, a guy like you using the "Christian" tactic. How convenient, you hypocrite. Charles B. the Holy annointed one. No thats a Laugh!
Charles B.
You're a fake humanitarian and we already know you're not a Christian. That cracks me up, a guy like you using the "Christian" tactic. How convenient, you hypocrite. Charles B. the Holy annointed one. Now thats a Laugh!
Brian-
Interrogation is not the same as torture by any stretch of the imagination!
Posted by fiesty on November 14, 2007 03:48 PM2 words: Geneva Convention
Posted by Teebar47 on November 14, 2007 03:55 PMTeebar
5 words: Does not apply to terrorists!
Posted by on November 14, 2007 04:01 PM"Define winning! Is that just less deaths this month?"
That would be a "drastic decline" in both deaths and insurgent violence for the last several months now.
According to the NY Times that is.
There are so many innacuracies in this letter it's hard to count. Still, it's worth a try.
Torture does work. Ask John McCain, a man who is no proponent of torture, but honest about his own experiences with it.
The assertion that "almost all" of those who have been tortured are innocent is beyond stupid.
The idea that torture hands our enemies a moral victory is correct. However, it should not be forgotten that the information extracted often leads to military victory, which is far more likely to save the lives of innocents.
As for torture being used on US soldiers, I don't know if you've been paying attention, but our enemies aren't exactly taking prisoners. They're tortured and murdered already, as are most of those taken captive by our enemies.
As for torture being wrong and evil, I don't argue that it's not nice, but getting information that saves the lives of innocents and allows us to take the lives of the evil people who would butcher them means that it's something that we should do when necessary. Call me inhumane, but I'm advocating the saving of your life, too.
Posted by Neal5x5 on November 14, 2007 04:22 PMWe're not torturing enough. We need to torture all prisoners, both military and civilian.
It always gets us exactly the answers we want, it lets us take care of our need for revenge (and blow off some steam), and it's fun for the whole family.
Posted by Captain Scarecrow, the Man of Straw on November 14, 2007 04:48 PMAh, hell just let the terrorists do any, and all tortures against our soldiers.
Our military doesn't have the right to interrogation. The enemy must be givin every right and every advantage when it come to acquiring life-saving information for their noble cause!!
By God, America needs to be civilized about torture!!!!
Posted by A on November 14, 2007 05:01 PMNeal5x5 is a big fan of torture:
"Torture does work. Ask John McCain, a man who is no proponent of torture, but honest about his own experiences with it."
Neal5x5, just when I though you couldn't get any sillier there you go again. McCain said torture worked on him because he told the enemy anything and everything they wanted to hear, some of it true, some of it (such as signing a document admitting to war crimes) utterly false.
"The assertion that "almost all" of those who have been tortured are innocent is beyond stupid."
How do you know?
"...it should not be forgotten that the information extracted often leads to military victory..."
Based on what evidence do you make this assertion?........(crickets).....
As for torture being used on US soldiers, I don't know if you've been paying attention, but our enemies aren't exactly taking prisoners. They're tortured and murdered already, as are most of those taken captive by our enemies.
So Neal5x5 is resigned to allowing our troops to be tortured. Way to support the troops Neal5x5!
"As for torture being wrong and evil, I don't argue that it's not nice, but getting information that saves the lives of innocents and allows us to take the lives of the evil people who would butcher them means that it's something that we should do when necessary."
Even though the preponderance of evidence says that the scenario you describe is a fantasy. Neal5x5 do you get your ideas about torture from episodes of "24"?
"Call me inhumane.."
No need. Anyone reading your words should come to this conclusion on their own.
Posted by Charles B on November 14, 2007 05:02 PM"A" was trying to be sarcastic:
"Our military doesn't have the right to interrogation."
Yes they do, but according to the Army Field Manual they don't have the right to torture anyone.
Do you know the difference A?
Posted by Charles B on November 14, 2007 05:05 PMCharles B.
"A" was trying to be sarcastic:
"Our military doesn't have the right to interrogation."
Yes they do, but according to the Army Field Manual they don't have the right to torture anyone.
Do you know the difference A?
Do you know the difference Charles? Exactly what is you definition of Interrogation?
Charle B's rant has changed my life. If only I had heard his disjointed and irrational words earlier. I no longer support torture. I have thrown away the mask that I have used to hide my true self. I now embrace the light side of the Force and my son Luke (and, to a lesser extent, my daughter Leah). I will dedicate myself to stopping the construction of what some have called the "second Death Star".
Oh, and sorry for the whole Alderaan thing.
Posted by Neal5x5 on November 14, 2007 06:07 PMWe should torture every democrap in congress to find ou why they support the terrorist over American troops.
Posted by Keith on November 14, 2007 06:24 PMSomeone once joked about the concept of torture, by saying: “If torture can save one American life, then I have only one question… Is red positive on this phone?” For me it’s that much of an ethical problem. We are not fighting people who use Marquis of Queensberry rules. We are in a life or death contest with people who will saw your head off with a small knife while praising God. We are fighting people who have no reservation about killing innocents and civilians; people who handed candy out in the street after the World Trade Center fell. Torture may not work, at least in every case. But in some instances it might, so why eliminate the option if it might be effective. Our enemies have no reservations about it why should we? Nothing we could do would give them the moral high ground.
Posted by Ray Hicks on November 14, 2007 06:39 PMThe Bush administration has always rejected torture as illegal.
New AG, Judge Mukasey explicitly repudiated the controversial 2002 Bybee memo, which argued for an expansive view of Presidential authority regarding the Geneva Convention and torture. "The Bybee memo, to paraphrase a French diplomat," said Judge Mukasey, "was worse than a sin, it was a mistake. It was unnecessary." And on his independence of mind as Attorney General in matters of bedrock law or ethics, Judge Mukasey said that if he disagreed with President Bush, "I would try to talk him out of it, or leave."
The question is not about torture. It is about waterboarding and whether or not it is torture. The Democrat Congressman wanted Mukasey to state explicitly that waterboarding is torture. He declined.
Of course the Congress has the authority to define waterboarding as torture, and consequently illegal, and they have also declined.
Instead the Democrats prefer to question White House nominees and put on the political theater that appeals to the sanctimony of their base (i.e., many of the posters on this page) which is nearest thing any of them have to a moral sense.
Posted by James Jones on November 14, 2007 08:06 PMThese boards clearly show the moral vacuum of Republicunts, and prove their deaths could never be mourned by human bings.
Posted by on November 14, 2007 08:14 PMInterrogation techniques--what you call "torture"--are essential in time of war. If you knew the facts, you would hardly be excoriating our troops for your own political gain.
Posted by Brian Stuckey
You hae no idea what you are talking about
Posted by Special Forces Vet on November 14, 2007 08:35 PMObviously from a man with the brains of a cherry. He'll find a natural home on the left.
Posted by James Jones on November 14, 2007 08:36 PMIt is about waterboarding and whether or not it is torture.
Sort of like asking whether or not forced sex is rape, or intentionally ending a life, murder.
Back to the old moral relativism game...it all depends what the definition of 'is' is, etc
Ray Hicks said about torture, after raising the specter of every boogie-man scenario he could muster:
"Our enemies have no reservations about it why should we?"
Because we aren't terrorists Ray? Or are you?
What is disturbing to me, besides the fact we're even having a conversation about the merits of torture, is that there are so many scared sh*tless people just like Ray Hicks and others on this thread cheering for torture.
It's the reaction of people like Ray Hicks that gives the terrorists hope, because he's bought into the terror they intended to sow, and is out of his f*cking mind with paranoia.
Anyone advocating for officially sanctioning torture is a coward and it's their pant-soaking irrational fear, more than anything else, that is "emboldening" the terrorists.
Posted by Charles B on November 14, 2007 09:56 PMJJ said credulously:
"The Bush administration has always rejected torture as illegal."
While quibbling about the definition of torture so as to give themselves wiggle room, and also sending people to foreign countries to be tortured...
JJ, first tell us why water-boarding isn't torture, then wax on about why Jesus didn't have to torture anyone. That was truly funny in a "clown" sort of way.
Then there was this bit of projection:
"Instead the Democrats prefer to question White House nominees and put on the political theater that appeals to the sanctimony of their base (i.e., many of the posters on this page) which is nearest thing any of them have to a moral sense.
Just like you to ascribe the cynical motives that drive you to others Jimmy Jay, just like you....
Posted by Charles B on November 14, 2007 10:05 PMCharles B.
I am still waiting for your definition of torture as compared to interrogation. What is the difference in your mind? What methods would you find acceptable in an interrogation?
You continue to use that word "torture" and how bad it is I am just wondering if we are talking about the same practices.
The right is stupid.
Let's torture ALL men in the U.S., since they commit most crimes.
Imagine the lives we would save!
Posted by rick on November 14, 2007 10:52 PMplease everyone just ignor the sociopath chas b as his view will never change as in his mind he is right and everyone else is wrong. you would have better luck herding cats than getting an honest debate or answer out of a sociopath.
sociopath =
Manipulative and Conning
They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.
Grandiose Sense of Self
Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."
Pathological Lying
Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.
this really fits the majority of the progressives out there and their liberal extreme left buddies
Posted by on November 15, 2007 06:24 AMjgd777,
Charles B once told me that he thought society should allow a father to marry his daughter. When I pointed out to him that would legalize incest he told me that's not what he meant - incest should not be legalized. I asked him to explain and he told me that if I was interested I could read his posts.
I'm giving long odds you don't fare any better.
Things are as Charles B says they are and when he contracicts himself - he didn't.
Charles B is as vacuous, hate-seeking, and smug as any leftist you will find on this page. The icing on the cake is that he is, without question, the biggest dim-wit.
Post 6.24 has the answer.
Posted by James Jones on November 15, 2007 07:22 AMOf course James Jones and Brian Stuckey both claimed to be religious Christian people. I have no idea how they think they can square torture with God. It must be rough going through life as a walking contradiction.
Posted by just sayin' on November 15, 2007 08:33 AMjust sayin'
I claim to be a Christian? Prove it.
I post here a lot it shouldn't be difficult.
Posted by James Jones on November 15, 2007 08:45 AMThe potential of this ever being posted is, most probably, something below the square root of minus zero. But, I'll try, anyway.
James Jones,
To jog your memory a bit: Do you remember the postings where you told me you were "in the company of the Catholic Church"? And, when I asked if you were a Member there, you never really answered. Then, you posted a thank you - almost amounting to a fawning "love-letter" of sorts - to the Roman Priest from Colorado Springs, when he presented us with Rome's views on a subject. After which, at another posting, you went ballistic when I suggested that, insofar as lasting influence on the world be concerned, Protestant Preachers were interchangeable; and that the gifted talent of Pavarotti would be remembered long after the name of the Preacher involved had been forgotten. (I won't bore the line with the fabulous accusations you made concerning that, since most of the readers here know your tendency to fantasy and imaginative hyperbole on things already.)
If you are NOT CLAIMING to be some form of "christian", why is it your postings are always nothing more than parroted rants taken from the level of Roman Baltimore Catechism Number One, or from the likes of Flapmouth Falwell? And - although I know you will never actually give anyone a straight answer about anything - if your are NOT CLAIMING "christian" status and/or foundation for your positions, WHAT ARE YOU?
Posted by Old Grouch on November 15, 2007 11:27 AMjdg: "I am still waiting for your definition of torture as compared to interrogation. What is the difference in your mind? What methods would you find acceptable in an interrogation?"
I really get tired of these cowards who ask questions, such as about the meaning or definition of words, which are quite difficult to answer, when they themselves are unwilling or unable to answer the questions themselves.
Posted by Truth on November 16, 2007 09:38 AMHow long does it take to ask a question? About a minute or two.
How long to answer one such as jdg posed? Well, there have been books written about the answer. There are long encyclopedia articles about the answer.
Who the hell does jgd think he is to try to control some one else's time that way, particularly when he is not willing to even spend his own time giving us his answer? You rarely find jgd posting more than from a single to several sentences about any topic, and his posts often are primarily questions he wants someone else to spend time on.
Posted by Truth on November 16, 2007 12:30 PMFor example, jgd hasn't said squat about what he thinks the difference is between torture and interrogation. Not a single thing.
Posted by Truth on November 16, 2007 12:33 PMWhat kind of poster hasn't got the guts to commit himself to any kind of position but wants others to do so so that he can attack them?
Answer: a coward.
Don't change the channel, folks. I may have more to say.
Posted by Truth on November 16, 2007 06:48 PMWhat is torture? The Supremes, five belonging to the Catholic cabal and the other four: who knows, are now rumaging over: Is death by chemical injection torture?
I agree with those who prescribe torture if it is known that the guy/gal knows the location of the bomb; however, I'm not sadistic so could not participate in the torture. Jusus Christ is sadistic enough:
JC plans on a holy genocide on his 2nd Coming when he will torture billions of humans in his lake of fire for eternity. His is Rule by Fear as opposed to Rule by Love.
Deicide Corner: “The question of souls is old--we demand our bodies, now. We are tired of promises, god is deaf, and his church is our worst enemy.” -- Voltairine de Cleyre
Posted by Richard Grimes r22037@yahoo, Deicide: Don't hate the believers; hate their bizarre dogma. on November 17, 2007 11:13 AMTruth,
Good Luck! - on ever getting a straight answer of any kind out of the Pro-Torture-Anti-Abortionists.
Out of one side of the mouth - and corresponding part of forked tongue - you will hear how "principled" they are; and how much they "care for" others. Out of the other side - and corresponding other part - you will hear paeans of praise for every uncivilized, regressive, reactionary, and destructive position and idea that shows up on the blog.
And, the most disgusting part of it all is, simply, that, so far as they are concerned, BOTH positions are, for them, "truth", the "truth" that suits them at the moment, and that serves the purpose of their own self-enhancement. They are totally duplicitous, because they have NO fundamental principles at all; and can't honestly deal with anyone who does.
And, as we always have seen - and will always see - they scurry away, like sidewinders, every time it comes down to a point at which they are asked to state what they really are. The only answer there is: They are always AGAINST whoever has principles; and always AGAINST principles as such. There is nothing positive, productive, or constructive to be found among them.
Posted by Old Grouch on November 17, 2007 12:03 PM