June 12, 2006 1:47 PM

Burt Hubbard and Laura Frank on The Border Within

Mark(Q) What is the genesis of The Border Within series?
Burt_Hubbard(A) The idea started with the shooting of Denver policeman Donnie Young last year allegedly by Raul Gomez-Garcia who was an illegal immigrant. We wanted to see to how immigration officials dealt with illegal and legal immigrants who had criminal records. That led us to take a look at the prison population in Colorado of people who were not U.S. citizens. After finding many with past criminal records, we looked at how immigration officials handled illegal immigrants. That's when we began to find that some illegal immigrants with criminal records were not picked up, while immigration officials spent almost half their time on immigrants with civil violations.

Mark(Q) Laura, your story is particularly revelatory about criminals who slip through ICE's net. A Mexican with a 10-year-record of DUI and other arrests kills a Denver man in a traffic accident. How could someone with this kind of record "slip through the net?"
laura_frank(A) Despite the numerous run-ins with law enforcement that the man, Roberto Martinez-Ruiz, had, none of the crimes rose to the level of seriousness that currently warrants attention from immigration officials. They have previously said publicly that no local law enforcement officials had turned over his name to Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE. The bottom line is this: ICE has to pick which illegal immigrants to go after based on its resources. It doesn't have space or manpower to take everyone it learns about. So, they go after the worst of the worst and those that, as one official put it, "pop up." That leaves people like Martinez-Ruiz in the middle, slipping right through the net.

Mark(P) If he doesn't rise to the threshhold, where is the bar? What triggers an alert to ICE?
laura_frank(P) The threshold depends on the day. Some days, ICE agents are busy with other cases and the beds at the detention center are full. Other days, they have more room and agents available. In general, we found crimes such as DUI, some domestic violence, etc. generally aren't acted on.

Mark(Q) Laura, what was the situation with Martinez-Ruiz's relatives?
laura_frank(A) Right now, no one seems to know. His brother was married to his wife's sister. They had a small business, a cleaning business, that employed Martinez-Ruiz's wife. The family was arrested when Martinez-Ruiz was brought to court. However, county officials had to ask ICE not to deport them because they were needed in the case against Martinez-Ruiz. However, after that case, they were not re-arrested and have apparently disappeared. The family of the man killed, Justin Goodman, wants to see the family brought in on charges connected with aiding Martinez-Ruiz. So far, that hasn't happened, though.

Mark(Q) Immigration and Customs Enforcement officials told you they want to deport everyone who's here illegally but put a priority on those with criminal records. So why are half the people deported those who aren't criminals?
Burt_Hubbard(A) According to immigration officials, they detained non-criminals they came in contact with while they were looking for immigrants with criminal backgrounds. As one immigration official put it, it's like a policeman going after felons. He or she still writes speeding tickets. In addition, they said they will go to a home looking for someone who is slated for deportation and will find four other people with no criminal record and take them into custody.

laura_frank(P) Another point: local police departments have a general system of alerting ICE about people they suspect are here illegally. It's very difficult for local officials to determine that. Often, people come without documentation, and the officials are left to "take their word for it." ICE gets those lists of "foreign-born" people and tries to determine who's here illegally. Sometimes, the people have records from previous brushes with immigration. Other times, agents have to rely on their training: listening to accents, asking questions, etc. But again, most often, the number of people who can be acted upon depend on the resources available at that moment.

Mark(Q) I'm sure many people are going to say, "Deport all who are here illegally whether they've committed a serious crime or not." Could ICE handle that kind of load?
Burt_Hubbard(A) Not even close. If there are an estimated 4,000 immigration fugitives in the state who have either been ordered deported or commited crimes and estimated 225,000 people not here legally. Immigration officials, by our estimates, have only about 50 investigators to search for them and funding for only about 360 detention beds. As one immigration official told us, you do the math.

Arn(Q) ICE seems hopelessly outmanned. Any chance Congress will give them more resources in the near future?
laura_frank(A) That's an interesting story, Arn. Congress has repeatedly given ICE more resources -- that is, approved more resources. But the funding has repeatedly fallen through when it comes to the actual budget that's presented by the President and passed by Congress. Sometimes, ICE has gotten as little as a fifth of what they were supposed to get, if my memory serves me. However, as more Americans gain an understanding of what is an extremely complex system, it's always possible things will change. Stay tuned, as they say.
Burt_Hubbard(A) There are some added resources for ICE in the legislation now before Congress. However, much of the attention and money, so far, has gone to the border area and not for more ICE investigators and detention space.

Mark(Q) Why the title The Border Within?
Burt_Hubbard(A) There were several reasons. One it shows that the immigration debate is not just an issue on the border. Second, it shows the split in immigration enforcement. Immigrants with criminal backgrounds escape attention while valuable time and space are spent on illegal immigrants with no criminal background.

ordinary(Q) In your series, do you address the role of the Mexican government??
laura_frank(A) We really don't in this series. That could be a whole series in and of itself. We focus on what our government says its trying to do and what is actually happening.

Mark(Q) Shouldn't they deport everyone they determine is here illegally whether they have committed serious crimes or not?
Burt_Hubbard(A) On one level, that's a policy and political decision. But as one former top immigration official told us if the U.S. wanted to go after everyone here illegally, it would cost the equivalent of another U.S. Defense Department. One another level, it's an economic issue. Does the U.S. want the labor force the immigrants represent.

Mark(Q) The lead story in the series is printed in both English and Spanish in the newspaper and the entire series is translated into Spanish on the Web site. Why?
Burt_Hubbard(A) Immigration has become one of the top issues in the U.S. It affects millions of people, both U.S. citizens and immigrants here legally and illegally. In order to reach as wide an audience as possible, we decided to translate the stories into Spanish.

Mark(Q) "Sanctuary" policies are a favorite target of those who favor stiffer immigration controls. What did your research tell you about them?
Burt_Hubbard(A) Sanctuary is a word that has been kicked around for decades when it is applied to how local government deals with illegal immigrants. For some, it means that local police will intentionally not inform immigration officials when they come across illegal immigrants. We did not find any evidence of that in Colorado. Lots of illegal immigrants with criminal records slipped through the cracks, but not because of a sanctuary policy. However, local law enforcment through the state has declined to arrest or turn over people who are here illegally, but have no criminal record. They believe it would deter victims from coming forward to report crimes against them.

laura_frank(P) In essence, we found that the heated debate over sanctuary policy is, in a sense, moot because even without a formal sanctuary policy, illegal immigrants who've committed crimes are slipping through the cracks because of lack of resources and priorities.

ordinary(Q) Burt.. Does the U.S. want the labor force..? Well, I guess we know what big business wants. How about Joe Ordinary citizen? Do you think Joe Ordinary citizen has a chance of influencing?
Burt_Hubbard(A) All indications from what I have read is that business overall wants the labor force and the immigration agencies and presidential administrations over the last 10 years or so have not tried to enforce penalties against employers. As far as Joe ordinary citizen, the upcoming elections will tell a lot about how people feel. Immigration will be a pivotal issue in elections across the U.S.

FedUp(Q) Why the secrecy in the system? Nobody in the U.S. gov't seems to keep any statistics on illegals and crime, especially violent crime. Did you uncover anybody willing to speak to this issue? It seems, to get any perspective on this, one needs to compile their own data.
laura_frank(A) If you ask officials about the secrecy, they usually talk about 'protecting the privacy' of people in the immigration system. The system is a mostly civil, as opposed to criminal, system, so the theory is that people's privacy must be protected. However, even with waivers/permission of people within the system, we were not allowed access to information or, for example, to go into the detention facility. A second factor is that the data collection system for immigration is dismal. Even when the Department of Homeland Security's Inspector General asked for information, they weren't given exactly what they wanted. Many reports have pointed out this shortfall. It just hasn't been a priority that got funded or fixed.
Burt_Hubbard(A) That is what we did - compile our own data. What we were told is that violations of immigration law are for the most part civil cases. As a result, immigration officials said the files and background on the individuals are not public record. However, the files on a lawsuit between you and me are public record. I think as more people become aware of the secrecy in the system, more pressure will be exerted to open it up.

ordinary(Q) After reading the first of the series, I must say Thank You! I hope the rest are as Pro. Will there be a follow up series or ongoing attention to a remedy?
laura_frank(A) Thank you. You can be sure we will continue to follow this topic. Now that we have this level of understanding of the system, we hope the continued coverage will be as thorough and add to the national discussion.

Mark(Q) What did you discover about the effect of tougher penalties on illegal immigration?
Burt_Hubbard(A) There have been no real tougher penalties imposed in recent years. The fact that many people deported keep returning, shows that is not much of a deterent.

Mark(Q) Laura, you have a story that debunks the notion that immigrants commit more crimes than American citizens. The reverse is true, according to a Harvard professor's study.
laura_frank(A) That's right. The Harvard professor, among others, researched crime statistics and immigration numbers. He's finding that as immigration grows, crime rates go down. Couple that with research showing immigrants commit fewer crimes and are less likely to be in prison than native-born Americans, and it becomes a very interesting field of study. The researchers are still trying to figure out why this is. You mentioned the notion that immigrants committ more crimes. Researchers would have expected to find the same thing, because crime is usually correlated with poverty, etc. But not when it comes to immigrants. Researchers are looking at a couple possibilities. For example, new immigrants tend to have intact families with married parents in larger numbers than native-born Americans, that may give them stability others don't have, they're guessing. This will be an interesting field of study to watch.

FedUp(Q) In your series do you take a historical look at the last major "immigration reform" during the Reagan years in the 80s? I'm curious as to how the lack of enforcement came about. From what I've seen and read, the Senate bill seems to be a replication of that failed legislation.
laura_frank(A) Yes, we look at the entire history of immigration policy. I think you'll be surprised at how many similarities there are over the years. I think that story comes Friday, so stay tuned!