November 6, 2006 6:35 AM
The pastor and the pro
Defrocked pastor Ted Haggard said he was overcome by "a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all my adult life."
Haggard admitted to "sexual immorality." A former male prostitute, Mike Jones, claims the two had monthly sexual liasons over the course of three years.
Haggard was dumped from his job at New Life Church, a 14,000 member congregation he founded in his living room and wrote a confessional letter that was read in a Sunday morning service televised live in Denver.
Focus on the Family founder James Dobson will be part of a group that will oversee Haggard's "rehabilitation and recovery." Dobson recently sent a letter to 7th Congressional district voters criticizing Democratic candidate Ed Perlmutter for hiring homosexual youth to work on his behalf and initially characterized the charges against Haggard as being politically motivated.
Haggard also acknowledged buying methamphetamine but that admission took a back seat to his admission that he had had sex with another man. Is Haggard's former flock and leaders such as Dobson saying that being a homosexual is worse than buying methamphetamine?
Will this diminish the political impact of evangelicals? Should church leaders spend more time saving souls and less time trying to influence elections and social policy?
November 3, 2006
8:08 AM
Anonymous writes:
The Irony, he comes a week before the elections, fails his polygraph about the sex, and the pastor admits to being a meth head........ What a freaking world..........
November 3, 2006
8:20 AM
Gaydar light went red writes:
You want to question his gayness? Turn your gaydar on and look at his press release photo. Gay as his teeth cleaning solution. Ask his wife how many weekends he's missed at home on "business". He has the perfect alibi to escape his home and tangle with the boys.
November 3, 2006
8:30 AM
Anonymous writes:
It doesnt matter, most of you left wing nut jobs are closet gay haters anyway and the domestic partnership is failing because so many of you are not practicing what you preach and are voting against it anyway. You just need more excuses to bash christians and gays whenever you can. Party of nothing but angry idiots
November 3, 2006
8:33 AM
JW writes:
I still dont understand why people use polygraphs. They can be beaten. They are not admissable in a court of law. In short, if you submit yourself to one, you take a chance at letting inaccurate technology lable you a liar, but even if you pass it will do you no good because its inadmissable in court.
Stupid. Might as well use a mood ring.
November 3, 2006
8:35 AM
Anonymous writes:
This is the reason I turned away from organized religion many years ago.
Hypocrite- A person who is not himself on Sunday.
November 3, 2006
8:35 AM
Cynic writes:
My guess is that Jones is the pastor's dealer, and threw the sex allegations in to grab his fifteen minutes, while trying to make a last second push for Ref. I, hence Jones can't pass the polygraph.
The pastor knows he's screwed on the meth charges, so he stepped down. Lacking evidence (like Foley's text messages) proving the sex charges, I still think his career and marriage will be shot on the drug charges alone.
November 3, 2006
8:38 AM
Jimbo writes:
Ahh, the new GOP. Does it stand for Gay Ol' Perverts or Gang Of Pedophiles? I find it hilarious. The religious right is so damn judgemental, and they want to regulate what goes on in your bedroom. Ahh, but someone pulls back the covers to reveal what THEY are doing and people are shocked!
November 3, 2006
8:41 AM
Kevin Jones writes:
"The teachers of the law (the scribes) and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So, you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach" (Matt. 23:2-3)"
Not being an Evangelical, Haggard's flown under my radar. I'm under the impression many Evangelicals can see his failures as "somebody else's problem" and continue on with their push to conserve marriage.
To be a cynical hairsplitter, Haggard has a wife and kids. This would make him a bisexual, and technically speaking he'd only be a hypocrite for speaking out against bisexual rights.
The only way to escape hypocrisy is to eschew each and every moral standard. That's why anti-hypocrisy emoting is so superficial and opportunistic. Haggard's alleged sins against his wife, his children, and God are foul, isn't that enough?
November 3, 2006
8:48 AM
David Hakala writes:
Kevin, that is the lamest attempt at sophistry I've read in ages.
On another topic, 8:08 says, "the pastor admits to being a meth head..."
??? Where'd that come from?
November 3, 2006
8:51 AM
David Hakala writes:
Oh, here it is:
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5115225,00.html
About a year into their relationship, Jones said Haggard asked him what he knew about "crystal meth," a crystalline form of methamphetamine used by some because of its aphrodisiac qualities and the stamina it provides.
"I told him I didn't do any," Jones said. "He asked if I could hook him up. I asked around and eventually gave him the name and number of someone who could supply him."
November 3, 2006
8:53 AM
Richard writes:
You have a choice people,religon & varies different types of ism`s or intellectal honesty and a consciensce.
November 3, 2006
8:55 AM
Anonymous writes:
Pastor Haggard is guilty of nothing. All ya'll are just buying into another liberal left wingnut conspiracy theory. Just like you liberals. His so-called "confession" was only to try and not hurt the GOP on Tuesday. I predict the GOP will increase its control in Congress because Americans reject you cut and runners.
November 3, 2006
9:02 AM
jay writes:
Why am I not surprised to see this many apologists on this subject this morning.
November 3, 2006
9:03 AM
JW writes:
Doesnt it get tiring posting that kind of bs?
First, he probably is guilty. Its not like hes been beaten or waterboarded into addmitting his transgressions.
Second, none of the polls say what you are saying. If you end up being right, this time, heads are going to roll because the population will KNOW without a doubt the election was tampered with. To tell you the truth, I believe thats why electronic voting machines are being used. The right will try to steal the election. Depending on the backlash, if they can deny it and just blame it on bad polling, they will pull it off. If the backlash is too much, they can just blame it on hacked machines, "boy we just dont know who did this horrible thing!" and run the election again.
As for the cut and run stuff, it just cracks me up you people buy it, for a number of reasons.
1) Democrats arent saying they want to cut and run.
2) In his haste to get us into Iraq, Bush cut and run from Afghanistan before he caught Osama (you know, the guy who actually DID attack us) and before the Taliban were actually beaten. We are going to have to go back at some point.
and finally,
3) Because we WILL not give up control of the oil in the middle east. It is a lever for world domination. The Chinese are currently trying to undermine our control in the area, and we are not about to let that happen.
November 3, 2006
9:07 AM
Chrs H writes:
Whether or not Haggards "guilty" or not on this (I'll wait for the investigation to be finished), I can't help but wonder about Jones' motive and timing on this one.
I mean, come on, a week before an election he comes on TV and Radio and "admits" to being Haggard's gay prostitute. The guy has some sort of ulterior motive, that's for sure.
Not that I'm defending Haggard or anything, but I always find it suspect when someone points a "moral" finger at someone else while admitting they partook in illegal activities themselves.
November 3, 2006
9:08 AM
Anonymous writes:
Yeah JW, you sound real stable and grounded. What a tool you prove to be on a daily basis. Paranoid and ignorant is no way to go through life. Life is tuff, its even tougher when you're stupid
November 3, 2006
9:15 AM
wm oster writes:
First, 'I did not have sex with that man in Denver.' Then, 'I did not have sex once a month.' Now, Haggard "admitted to some indiscretions,"
I now know why we should ban gay marrage. It's because if it is allowed, gay lovers of Evangelicals ministers can be pressured to divorcing their wives and marrying their gay lovers.
November 3, 2006
9:17 AM
Anonymous writes:
Paranoid and ignorant... sounds like all the Republicans I know. They are also stupid, but life doesn't appear to be to 'tuff' for them.
November 3, 2006
9:20 AM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
If the allegations are true, and there certainly seems to smoke of some sort, then he obviously needs to step down from his leadership positions, and hopefully the church will fulfill its obligation to restore him, not crucify him.
Hypocrisy is about pretending to believe what you do not believe. That a person can fail to live up to their ideals is not hypocrisy, but humanity. Hypocrisy is to continue to act and pretend even after you are exposed. (That would be looking into the camera and lying to the whole nation repeatedly)
This should not affect the election on Tuesday, but I am sure that some will be swayed by it.
November 3, 2006
9:24 AM
JW writes:
Well, admittedly, that part about Republicans stealing the election is a bit far fetched. Then again, the DOJ and the NAACP have already said they are going to be out making sure the elections are fair...hmmm.
The rest of it was real enough. There is no way America is going to give up control of all that oil, Republican or Democrat. Its all just rhetoric to get your vote.
But im fine with that. We just need to shift the course of the war. So far, its been waged with an incredible amount of incompetence. But again, Republican or Democrat, we will be there insuring our interests in mid east oil for a long time.
November 3, 2006
9:27 AM
JW writes:
"That would be looking into the camera and lying to the whole nation repeatedly"
Agreed. And its very sad that our last two presidents have been guilty of this.
November 3, 2006
9:29 AM
Matthew Peters writes:
First, where's there's smoke there's usually fire. As it rages in the wind for all to see there's only one thing - we're not certain who started it or how it started.
Second, Ted Haggard is a sinner just like all the rest of us; whether we admit it or not. If you're not a sinner then you don't need a Savior. A Christian is the same as anybody else - the big difference is he/she is saved by the blood of Jesus, who was and is sinless. It's Jesus' righteousness we cling to not our own and certainly not that of another sinner!
Finally, I would never let a hypocrite come between me (a lost and lonely sinner) and my Lord Jesus Christ. Never - ever!
November 3, 2006
9:35 AM
Chris H writes:
"And its very sad that our last two presidents have been guilty of this."
Last two? I haven't done the research, but it wouldn't surprise me at all if we could find instances where Bush Sr, Reagan, Ford, Nixon, Johnson and Kennedy lied to the camera. The only one I'm giving benefit of the doubt to is Carter, but then, he was a crappy president for other reasons.
November 3, 2006
9:37 AM
BB writes:
Ted Haggard symbolizes many things that are different in today’s Evangelicalism than from the 1987 Evangelicalism of Jim Bakker. Mr. Haggard broadened the focus of his breed of Christianity to include issues such as poverty, the environment, and human rights alongside the traditional staples of abortion and marriage issues. If he falls from grace, it will be as big as the great scandals of 1987. It took a decade for the public to embrace Evangelicalism again. In news cycles this one could be as big as the Catholic Pedophilia affair. Let us hope this one is resolved quickly, elections notwithstanding.
November 3, 2006
9:37 AM
JW writes:
Chris H.
I kept it to the last two because they were so obvious. Clinton was convicted of perjury. Bush has been telling us how well the war in Iraq is going for years, and now we know the truth. These are obvious. Im pretty sure the others you state probably lied to (they are politicians after all) but its not as obvious.
November 3, 2006
9:38 AM
jay writes:
Chris H,
I'm just speculating here, but I think it could be that the male hooker that Haggard was tagging just couldn't stand seeing the hypocrisy coming out of this guy's mouth about the gay issues on the ballot this year.
Regardless, the timing of the revelations has nothing to do with the validity of the accusations....considering the confirmations giving by Father Teddy.
November 3, 2006
9:44 AM
antloni writes:
In America aren't people assumed innocent until proven guilty?
November 3, 2006
9:50 AM
Curious writes:
JW-
How are the Chineese undermining Bush's control of the oil in the sand pit? I must be out of the loop.
And, I agree with some of the other posters about organized religion. Sometimes it's run by people grabbing money and power with no morals and are filled with lies. Like Hogar.
November 3, 2006
9:51 AM
JW writes:
Just in case you dont believe the current administration is completely and totally incompetent....
http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/03/news/weapons.php
November 3, 2006
9:53 AM
Beth writes:
"Timing has nothing to do with validity".
In most circles, timing has to do with motivation which has A LOT to do with validity. The media hype is typical of those types of stories that get reported prior to any establishment of fact and not surprisingly tilt against conservatives.
November 3, 2006
9:56 AM
Kerney writes:
I'm pretty sure Jesus was gay so I think it's ok. Not so sure about the meth though.
November 3, 2006
10:02 AM
Shirley from Oregon writes:
no excuses, but like what Jesus said, he who is without sin, cast the first stone. John 8:4-11
sin is sin, but Jesus forgives on confession; society crucifies upon alleged allegation of sin, and enjoys it slow death.
November 3, 2006
10:03 AM
Anonymous writes:
This story is hysterical. Everyone knows these guys like Dobson and Phelps and Haggard are actual closet cases. Always a good thing to see one of these hypocrites exposed for who they really are. Maybe now Dodson's gay lover will come out of the shadows too or are we saying that for the 2008 election?
November 3, 2006
10:03 AM
JW writes:
"How are the Chineese undermining Bush's control of the oil in the sand pit? I must be out of the loop."
They arent, yet. But they have made attempts. They have tried to strike deals with the Saudi's, but those attempts have failed due to our influence over the house of Saud. Im not sure what they are doing with Iran. Getting credible info on Iran is pretty tricky right now.
The Chinese are currently getting most of their oil needs from Russia, but their demand is going up fast. India is in a similar position. Saw an article the other day about SUV's now showing up on Indian streets. Wonderful for the environment, Im sure. Anyway, the Chinese are trying to turn the whole of southeast Asia into a group so they can up their purchasing power on oil. Might be hard for mid eastern countries under our influence to ignore this. Japan probably wont go along. Long standing issues with the Chinese and the hate is mutual. Also, we influence Japan quite thoroughly. The rest though...
India is putting a pipeline in to Iran. We have tried to stop that, but despite their desire to maintain good relations with us, they are going ahead with it.
So, put it all together and what you have is a rapidly blosoming new world power with increasing oil needs, bordering the same in India, and a whole region dependent on Russian oil (except Japan).
What you get is a very dangerous threat to our control of mid east oil simply becasue they have huge demand, and money to pay. We currently insure that most of the oil in the mid east goes to europe. Gives us leverage over them. If China, or a compact of China, India, and the rest of southeast asia can get those mid east governments to give it to them instead....
Anyway, you get the picture.
November 3, 2006
10:03 AM
Shirley from Oregon writes:
no excuses, but like what Jesus said, he who is without sin, cast the first stone. John 8:4-11
sin is sin, but Jesus forgives on confession; society crucifies upon alleged allegation of sin, and enjoys it slow death.
November 3, 2006
10:04 AM
Anonymous writes:
This story is hysterical. Everyone knows these guys like Dobson and Phelps and Haggard are actual closet cases. Always a good thing to see one of these hypocrites exposed for who they really are. Maybe now Dodson's gay lover will come out of the shadows too or are we saving that for the 2008 election?
November 3, 2006
10:05 AM
David Hakala writes:
JW: "Just in case you dont believe the current administration is completely and totally incompetent...."
Not to mention consistently mendacious:
"Officials of the International Atomic Energy Agency,... had privately protested last week to the U.S. ambassador to the agency, according to European diplomats who spoke on the condition of anonymity ..."
"Early Friday, a spokesman for Gregory Schulte, the U.S. ambassador, denied that anyone from the agency had approached Schulte about the Web site."
November 3, 2006
10:06 AM
Tree writes:
Jay, we can all speculate the same. How can a gay prostitute not expose this and have a conscious? This guy is crapping on every belief gays live for while "stealing when he should have been buying" - I forgot who wrote that classic song.
November 3, 2006
10:07 AM
Frank Volz writes:
He admitted to "some" indiscretions with a gay escort. The man advertised himself as an escort not a drug dealer. My heart goes out to his wife and kids, they are the victims here, not the GOP, not the "defenders of marriage" it's his family who are the victims. The timing of this coming out will have no effect on the elections. People have made up their minds. Referendum I is a civil rights issue nothing more, nothing less.
November 3, 2006
10:11 AM
gr8fuldude writes:
TH -
I think it was Uriah Heap...
November 3, 2006
10:14 AM
gr8fuldude writes:
"Stood on a ridge and shunned religion
Thinking the world was mine
I made my break and a big mistake
Stealing when I should have been buying"
More fitting than anyone realizes, though I doubt Haggard (or Jones for that matter) are into Classic Rock.
November 3, 2006
10:20 AM
Anonymous writes:
no excuses, but like what Jesus said, he who is without sin, cast the first stone. John 8:4-11
sin is sin, but Jesus forgives on confession; society crucifies upon alleged allegation of sin, and enjoys it slow death.
Posted by Shirley from Oregon on November 3, 2006 10:03 AM
JESUS SAID "LET HE IS WITHOUT SIN THROW OUT THE FIRST ROCK,,,,AND I SHALL SMOKETH IT . YOU TOOL, GET YOUR BIBLE STORIES STRAIGHT
November 3, 2006
10:22 AM
Mufti writes:
The "lie detector" part of this story is irrelevant.
Polygraphs are no better at telling if somebody is lying than examining chicken entrails would be. Let’s get with the program here, forensic science does not include polygraph, and fortune-telling has no place in law or police work.
What does the evidence say?
-Whose voice is that on the tapes?
-Are there fingerprints on the letter?
-Is there DNA on the envelope?
-What physical evidence is at the residence where these acts supposedly took place?
Come on Mr. Wolf, join the age of reason!
November 3, 2006
10:23 AM
Tree writes:
8dude- nice post of lyrics, those do fit like a glove. I heard that song while driving back from L.A. last week while entering Grand Junction. Between Denver and L.A. all you get is Rush and other slant heads bashing the integrity of life. These people in rural America who don't tune into the I-net news are just one step further along than the animals they slaughter and corn they grow.
November 3, 2006
10:24 AM
Mark Wolf writes:
I tried to join the age of reason once but my astrologer said the timing wasn't right.
November 3, 2006
10:27 AM
Tree writes:
Frank- you should be right about today's news should have no effect on the elections. People should have made up their minds a long time ago. I still can't believe attack ads on boob tube days before the election work. I voted 3 weeks ago by mail. I really don't know why others don't. Maybe it's too easy.
November 3, 2006
10:32 AM
Tree writes:
Mark, your astrologer? Oh, you've lived in California before. Did you join the age of aquarius?
November 3, 2006
10:56 AM
Anonymous writes:
This is straight out of Moliere's "Tartuffe," which was written more than 200 years ago. Falling-down funny, and better yet that it's happening in Colorado Springs!!
November 3, 2006
10:57 AM
Mark Wolf writes:
Note:
Some of you may not be able to see a few of the links in the main post and some comments. The display goes in and out and affects both IE and Mozilla. Hoping it clears up in a bit.
November 3, 2006
11:08 AM
LOB writes:
Well, he's lying about the nature of God(s), the authorship of the Bible, the divinity of Jesus and all the shabang. It's one of thousands of religions and no truer than the others. So why doubt that he'd lye about Jones?
November 3, 2006
11:14 AM
Anonymous writes:
Maybe you're lyeing?
Idiot!
November 3, 2006
11:25 AM
Chris writes:
Nothing changes with Ref. I and Amend. 43, folks. I still fails big and 43 still passes big. If anything evanglicals will be all the more charged up over this. Good move Mikey...you just won us the election!!
November 3, 2006
11:34 AM
. writes:
Both parties are full of haters and idiots.
The left: 'We're the party of the people. We'll run everything by committee and involve the people making decisions that will fair to the people.'
Then they use these kind of last minute election tactics and ruin one man's family. True or not, you can't be both the party of the people and attack people.
The right: 'We're for family values. We believe in the sanctity of marriage, we believe in the one true G-d, Jesus Christ and we believe in a strong defense.'
Then they use tactics that smear their opponents, exxagerations, illegally access FBI files and outright lies while and ruining their opponents families.
Family values? I think not.
You all do it for power. Keeping power, regaining power and you don't give a rat's about anybody else but yourselves, your agenda, your pitiful party and your power.
Which mob do you support? Can you spell none of the above?
You all make me sick.
November 3, 2006
11:41 AM
Anonymous writes:
careful with the post button angry one
November 3, 2006
11:42 AM
Joe writes:
I do not know yet what the real truth surrounding this situation is. No matter the outcome, it is tragic. If Ted Haggard is innocent (he does have a right to be pressumed innocent, regardless of being a minister) then his career and his family will be harmed beyond full repair because so many have rushed to judge. If he is guilty, then he deserves due process and the punishment that will come from his acts, both coporal and personal. I would hope that instead of crucifying either Haggard or his accuser, we might give them both enough benefit of the doubt to let the truth surface through the right processes before deciding to stone either of them.
November 3, 2006
11:50 AM
Tom King writes:
What due diligence and fact checking did this radio station conduct before giving the airwaves to an an admitted homosexual prostitute who deals in drugs? Shouldn't the polygraph test have been given BEFORE the interview on the air to have the story catch fire? Does the station have an agenda regarding Tuesday's elections? Aren't there any warning lights going off when the recordings aren't produced to the station, he claims to have some bills with his finger prints, and admits he held his story until just before election day? Even if everything is true, I imagine there are plenty of people in homosexual lifestyles who don't people in destroying marriage. If everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING -- doesn't turn out to be true, shouldn't this radio station and host Peter Boyles be sued for every penny it is worth? This man's name is now RUINED. Now the station will have a motive to make sure the facts fit their agenda. Where is the story about how the station vetted this story before airing. Is Dr. James Dobson next? What about the Pope? Are all Colorado media standards gone?
November 3, 2006
12:01 PM
Chris H writes:
I'm sure if there are no truths to the allegations, Haggard will use the slander and libel laws to pursue Jones and those who put him on the air. At least I would, in his place.
However, if just a portion of the allegations are true, Haggard may choose not to use those laws to assist him, as he might not want to further drag his name, family and church through the inevitable revelations that would entail. Which leaves him in a position where many people will beleive he is guilty of all the accusations made, when in fact, he might be only guilty of one or two minor, but embarassing ones. This is where I'm very disappointed with our mass media's tendancy to feel they can air everyones dirty laundry as they see fit, before all the facts are known.
In almost every case, there are people around the accuser/accused who will be seriously affected, whether or not the allegations are true. And yet sensationilists like Boyles will spout their "information" as fact, regardless of whether or not it is.
November 3, 2006
12:04 PM
Anonymous writes:
Haggard has confessed his sins.
Whatever happened to practicing what you preach?
November 3, 2006
12:06 PM
Fernando writes:
Hello commentators.. Why doesn't the RMN call this accuser what he is: A prostitute, a male whore, a sex for money harlet.. or any other funny name that is more accurate than a 'gay male escort'? If CNN, the communist news network, can call him what he is, why not my beloved RMN?
Anyway, this pastor is an idiot for putting himself in the situation of receiving a massage from this dumbell. Unless, of course, this guy is a certified massage therapist.. lol. It's not illegal to get a massage, but it might be inappropriate if the massaged all the wrong (or right) places. In the end, this PROSTITUTE is seeking attention, and I can't help to notice that it is politically and personally motivated.
November 3, 2006
12:13 PM
Anonymous writes:
The drug buying is the reason the pastor went to Denver. The lie about gay sex is a little embellishment by the upstanding citizen who has a political axe to grind about gay marriage.
Too bad the allegations were splashed well before even the beginning of an investigation as to the veracity of the claims.
To all the libbie hypocrites who lamented the Kerry reaction, you now have another example of political advantage given to the left by our media. A real shame this story has to be splashed everywhere before anyone has a chance to evaluate the evidence.
November 3, 2006
12:13 PM
Anonymous writes:
Haggard was doing meth and having gay sex. No reason to defend the guy just because he is a Christian
November 3, 2006
12:18 PM
Pat Johnson writes:
The politicians have set the pace for any lie and any slander, for each other. So now anything goes on this slandering and lies to achieve and evil purpose.
November 3, 2006
12:23 PM
Dan D writes:
Jones motive is simple, he is a gay man fighting for the right for gays.
When is the best time to tell the truth? Just before and election.
For who is telling the truth, it is Jones. He has to much at risk
to be lying. For one thing Haggard sure did not put up a fight if Jones
was lying. 99.999999% of the time person that is coming forward
is always telling the truth. This is no different then the Mark Foley outing.
People knew they just covered it up. For you Christian followers, why
do you follow these mega churches anyway. These are just towers of
gold and money. These are falsehoods that God warned people about. God is in your heart not in MEGA (Gold & Money) CHURCHES
November 3, 2006
12:23 PM
history buff writes:
It looks like the media played this story for a scoop, similar to the Jean Benet Ramsey confessor. It is hard to stifle someone making such inflammatory and salacious accusations, but the media has a responsibility not to ruin a man's life and career if the accusations are false.
BTW, I saw where Tammy Faye and Jimmy Baker's son is going to have a TV show.
November 3, 2006
12:31 PM
Anonymous writes:
So, Ref I is failing, and Amend 43 is looking like it will pass. Out of the blue comes a truth teller who has sat on this truth for many months. No ulterior motive there.
November 3, 2006
12:34 PM
Max Ernst writes:
"I bought meth but didn't use it" is as credible as "I didn't inhale."
Repugnant so called christians pass laws to punish other people because they're afraid they can't control their own urges.
November 3, 2006
12:42 PM
JR writes:
Sure this is outrageous, sure it's shocking. But it's also just what we expect from the leader of a 'social' church that claims to be Christian but teaches things not found in the Bible. I don't think it's such a surprise that this came out now. What's more surprising is that it went so long without being uncovered. The majority of the thousands of people who go to New Life church are bound to try to excuse and cover over this disgusting display. When a church follows a man, and that man turns out to be a sexually perverted druggy, the members of the church will use their man-worship to do whatever they can to make everyone else, those who recognize and condemn the wrong that was done, to be the wrong-doers. We will see demonstrations of 'solidarity' on behalf of Haggard that show that those who attend that church are more interested in their fun, rock music-playing gatherings than standing firm in their determination to follow Jesus' way of life and the Bible principles that allow true Christians to live a happy and successful life in God's eyes.
Any talk of political timing is just a side point. It doesn't make it any less wrong what this religious leader has done; it doesn't remove any of the guilt or hypocrisy from this man's life. Outrageous? Shocking? Sure. But also just what we expect.
November 3, 2006
12:46 PM
am 760 writes:
Chris H. It said in the RMN article today, that Jones wanted to come out earlier with this info, but his lawyer advised him not to until they gathered more evidence.
And Jones is honest that he did this to influence voters, because he is sick of the hypocrisy of those on the right. Anything wrong with that?
November 3, 2006
12:54 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Anything wrong with that?
Posted by am 760 on November 3, 2006 12:46 PM
If you are not a Christian, anything goes. If you are a Christian, then Matthew 18 applies, and exposing someone is not the object. The object is to confront someone in private in the hope that they will repent in private and get back on the right path.
November 3, 2006
12:55 PM
am 760 writes:
Where's Hogar today, he must be at home crying that another one of his beloved Christian righties is not what he claims to be.
Another week, another rightie being accused of a crime. But you righties keep supporting them, they are the party of moral values, NOT.
November 3, 2006
1:04 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
am 760
I had never heard of Haggard before this morning, so I have no idea what kind of person he is, but he seems to be doing the right thing now that it has been exposed. Compare that with Kerry who still will not admit what he did.
November 3, 2006
1:07 PM
am 760 writes:
Hogar, No the object or point, is to point out hypocrisy. When you on the right continue to act like you have a monopoly on moral values, its everyones job to point out that your full of shit.
Dems have family values and morals to, and were patriotic and love our country, etc...
But we don't say those on the right are godless, unpatriotic, terrorist sympathisers, etc...
That is why you and those like you are the Pharasiees of today. You just don't get it.
Being Christian is more than just being able to quote verses from the bible.
Its about love, tolerance and acceptance, all traits you don't have Hogar and other evangelicals.
November 3, 2006
1:09 PM
am 760 writes:
PS Kerry has apologized, so your wrong about that to.
November 3, 2006
1:09 PM
Anonymous writes:
And Jones is honest that he did this to influence voters, because he is sick of the hypocrisy of those on the right. Anything wrong with that?
Posted by am 760 on November 3, 2006 12:46 PM
So, Ref I is failing, and Amend 43 is looking like it will pass. Out of the blue comes a truth teller who has sat on this truth for many months. No ulterior motive there.
Posted by on November 3, 2006 12:31 PM
am760=moron
November 3, 2006
1:12 PM
Doug writes:
Both of them should be arrested. Jones for dealing and prostitution; and Ted for drug posession
November 3, 2006
1:12 PM
Anonymous writes:
Kerry has said that the troops were in effect too stupid to recognize his non-joke. The people standing behind him when he made this "joke" werer all stone-faced.
Now, where was that apology?
November 3, 2006
1:17 PM
Anonymous writes:
WTF,,, haggard got a message and meth, but no sex and he threw the drugs away......oh bullshit! I dont go to those japanese massage parlors for the massage, I go for the happy ending. Jones was advertising in Out Front. Why would haggard be reading outfront? This is only furthers the need to shove homos back in the closet and and send the liberals to the gas chambers.
November 3, 2006
1:21 PM
JF writes:
Richard Dawkins inteverviewed Ted Haggard recently; the report is viewable at YouTube.com:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmNjfpoRZpE
The report gives some insight into "who really is Ted Haggard".
November 3, 2006
1:23 PM
JW writes:
"WTF,,, haggard got a message and meth, but no sex and he threw the drugs away......oh bullshit! I dont go to those japanese massage parlors for the massage, I go for the happy ending. Jones was advertising in Out Front. Why would haggard be reading outfront? This is only furthers the need to shove homos back in the closet and and send the liberals to the gas chambers."
You can go with them for promoting sex slave labor.
November 3, 2006
1:25 PM
Anonymous writes:
Its not slavery when their paid you dumbass
November 3, 2006
1:26 PM
Amazed writes:
It's amazing to me how many are so willing to forget that one little line that says "innocent until proven guilty" - especially since the timing is so suspect (a week before elections),the polygraph was not passed and the man claiming the indescretion has not been investigated. What are his affliations and with Whom? How many Democrats has he been talking to lately? Maybe this Pastor is guilty but at this point there is just as much to say he isn't.
November 3, 2006
1:27 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
PS Kerry has apologized, so your wrong about that to.
Posted by am 760 on November 3, 2006 01:09 PM
Your sentence should have ended with the word "too"
Kerry basically said that he was sorry that we are to dumb to realize that he was saying a joke about Bush. How is it funny that Bush had a higher GPA than Kerry did in Yale, and that Bush went to Harvard for his MBA while Kerry went to Boston College Law School. How can you make a joke about someone not doing well in school when he did better than you?
Check out the picture of Lurch.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student/?page=1
November 3, 2006
1:27 PM
BrotherBrian writes:
I believe this episode clearly demonstrates the hopelessness, darkness, and loneliness of homosexuality. While I don't have any more information than anyone else, the particulars that are coming out so far: crystal-meth use, gay prostitution, and distortion of facts to hide guilt are so often associated with the enemy's attack on our families and society. While none of these are exclusive to homosexuality, they have all the hallmarks of Satan and his fallen angels' work written all over them.
God loves everyone, including the two men in question. But this should also be a clear illustration of the fact that homosexuality is something that affects us all.....whether directly or indirectly.
Dealing with intolerance, misunderstandings and preconceived ideas regarding homosexuality are but one example of how we should love one another, forgiving one another, and making allowances because we love each other.
May God guide and direct all affected by this latest emergence of truth.
November 3, 2006
1:27 PM
Amazed writes:
It's amazing to me how many are so willing to forget that one little line that says "innocent until proven guilty" - especially since the timing is so suspect (a week before elections),the polygraph was not passed and the man claiming the indescretion has not been investigated. What are his affliations and with Whom? How many Democrats has he been talking to lately? Maybe this Pastor is guilty but at this point there is just as much to say he isn't.
November 3, 2006
1:28 PM
BrotherBrian writes:
I believe this episode clearly demonstrates the hopelessness, darkness, and loneliness of homosexuality. While I don't have any more information than anyone else, the particulars that are coming out so far: crystal-meth use, gay prostitution, and distortion of facts to hide guilt are so often associated with the enemy's attack on our families and society. While none of these are exclusive to homosexuality, they have all the hallmarks of Satan and his fallen angels' work written all over them.
God loves everyone, including the two men in question. But this should also be a clear illustration of the fact that homosexuality is something that affects us all.....whether directly or indirectly.
Dealing with intolerance, misunderstandings and preconceived ideas regarding homosexuality are but one example of how we should love one another, forgiving one another, and making allowances because we love each other.
May God guide and direct all affected by this latest emergence of truth.
November 3, 2006
1:29 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Its about love, tolerance and acceptance, all traits you don't have Hogar and other evangelicals.
Posted by am 760 on November 3, 2006 01:07 PM
I love trying to teach you what the Bible actually says, I tolerate your misuse of words and your mispellings, and I accept the fact that you will probably never change your mind about what the Bible really says, and that you will continue to call me names.
November 3, 2006
1:33 PM
Anonymous writes:
The only way AM 760 is going to learn about the bible is if Am 760 reads it to his dumbass, the dork does nothing but listens and repeats for them. To mindless to do any work of his own. Just like the rest of the loony left
November 3, 2006
1:37 PM
Chris H writes:
am760 - what about the hypocrisy of an admitted prostitute and drug dealer "doing the right thing" and taking this straight to the media? According to him, this went on for three years. Where were his pangs of concious three years ago?
Assuming his allegations were true, there were other ways this could have been dealt with short of showing up on the media throwing mud at another mans name and family (deserved or not).
Anyway, my point is, despite whether or not his allegations are true, Jones has my contempt. And this is not about his lifestyle, it's about the choices he made regarding this. Haggard may have my contempt or my sympathy, depending upon the truth of the allegations.
November 3, 2006
1:46 PM
Brother Brian writes:
I believe this episode clearly demonstrates the hopelessness, darkness, and loneliness of homosexuality. While I don't have any more information than anyone else, the particulars that are coming out so far: crystal-meth use, gay prostitution, and distortion of facts to hide guilt are so often associated with the enemy's attack on our families and society. While none of these are exclusive to homosexuality, they have all the hallmarks of Satan and his fallen angels' work written all over them.
God loves everyone, including the two men in question. But this should also be a clear illustration of the fact that homosexuality is something that affects us all.....whether directly or indirectly.
Dealing with intolerance, misunderstandings and preconceived ideas regarding homosexuality are but three examples of how we should love one another, forgive one another, and make allowances for each other because we love each other. Ephesians 4:2 says we should contiue to keep our minds set on the things of God, living as becomes you] with complete lowliness of mind (humility) and meekness (unselfishness, gentleness, mildness), with patience, bearing with one another and making allowances because you love one another.
May God guide and direct all those who may become affected by this latest emergence of truth. It isn't the truth that is shameful. What is truly shameful is that we blame men instead of Satan. While I know we are accountable for our actions, when we understand that Satan uses homosexuality to divide God's people, and when we begin to learn about spiritual warfare, we begin to fight the good fight of faith!
My name is Brother Brian. I am a Christian. I identify as homosexual, although I have now been out of the lifestyle for 2 years. I am HIV+ and God has stayed His hand of judgment and prevented AIDS from materializing in my body. I believe in the Bible. I have sinned. Through Jesus, I am forgiven. Luke 7:47 says: he who is forgiven little loves little. Have you been forgiven much? Have you loved much?
God knows the thoughts and plans He has towards me and those like me. They are thoughts and plans to prosper me, and not for evil, so that I may have a hope and future in my final outcome. Jesus forgives me. Do you?
Colossians 2:2 encourages us:
[For my concern is] that their hearts may be braced (comforted, cheered, and encouraged) as they are knit together in love, that they may come to have all the abounding wealth and blessings of assured conviction of understanding, and that they may become progressively more intimately acquainted with and may know more definitely and accurately and thoroughly that mystic secret of God, [which is] Christ (the Anointed One).
May God bless you and yours now and forever! And may God bless the United States of America!
November 3, 2006
1:49 PM
JW writes:
"I love trying to teach you what the Bible actually says, I tolerate your misuse of words and your mispellings, and I accept the fact that you will probably never change your mind about what the Bible really says, and that you will continue to call me names."
This is one of your problems Hogar. You believe you posess the only true interpretation. Thus, you believe you alone (and those who believe just like you) are the only true posessors of the word of God. Therefore, no one else can possibly be right about anything God has or hasnt said.
November 3, 2006
1:50 PM
Brother Brian writes:
I believe this episode clearly demonstrates the hopelessness, darkness, and loneliness of homosexuality. While I don't have any more information than anyone else, the particulars that are coming out so far: crystal-meth use, gay prostitution, and distortion of facts to hide guilt are so often associated with the enemy's attack on our families and society. While none of these are exclusive to homosexuality, they have all the hallmarks of Satan and his fallen angels' work written all over them.
God loves everyone, including the two men in question. But this should also be a clear illustration of the fact that homosexuality is something that affects us all.....whether directly or indirectly.
Dealing with intolerance, misunderstandings and preconceived ideas regarding homosexuality are but three examples of how we should love one another, forgive one another, and make allowances for each other because we love each other. Ephesians 4:2 says we should contiue to keep our minds set on the things of God, living as becomes you] with complete lowliness of mind (humility) and meekness (unselfishness, gentleness, mildness), with patience, bearing with one another and making allowances because you love one another.
May God guide and direct all those who may become affected by this latest emergence of truth. It isn't the truth that is shameful. What is truly shameful is that we blame men instead of Satan. While I know we are accountable for our actions, when we understand that Satan uses homosexuality to divide God's people, and when we begin to learn about spiritual warfare, we begin to fight the good fight of faith!
My name is Brother Brian. I am a Christian. I identify as homosexual, although I have now been out of the lifestyle for 2 years. I am HIV+ and God has stayed His hand of judgment and prevented AIDS from materializing in my body. I believe in the Bible. I have sinned. Through Jesus, I am forgiven. Luke 7:47 says: he who is forgiven little loves little. Have you been forgiven much? Have you loved much?
God knows the thoughts and plans He has towards me and those like me. They are thoughts and plans to prosper me, and not for evil, so that I may have a hope and future in my final outcome. Jesus forgives me. Do you?
Colossians 2:2 encourages us:
[For my concern is] that their hearts may be braced (comforted, cheered, and encouraged) as they are knit together in love, that they may come to have all the abounding wealth and blessings of assured conviction of understanding, and that they may become progressively more intimately acquainted with and may know more definitely and accurately and thoroughly that mystic secret of God, [which is] Christ (the Anointed One).
May God bless you and yours now and forever! And may God bless the United States of America!
November 3, 2006
1:51 PM
Brother Brian writes:
I believe this episode clearly demonstrates the hopelessness, darkness, and loneliness of homosexuality. While I don't have any more information than anyone else, the particulars that are coming out so far: crystal-meth use, gay prostitution, and distortion of facts to hide guilt are so often associated with the enemy's attack on our families and society. While none of these are exclusive to homosexuality, they have all the hallmarks of Satan and his fallen angels' work written all over them.
God loves everyone, including the two men in question. But this should also be a clear illustration of the fact that homosexuality is something that affects us all.....whether directly or indirectly.
Dealing with intolerance, misunderstandings and preconceived ideas regarding homosexuality are but three examples of how we should love one another, forgive one another, and make allowances for each other because we love each other. Ephesians 4:2 says we should contiue to keep our minds set on the things of God, living as becomes you] with complete lowliness of mind (humility) and meekness (unselfishness, gentleness, mildness), with patience, bearing with one another and making allowances because you love one another.
May God guide and direct all those who may become affected by this latest emergence of truth. It isn't the truth that is shameful. What is truly shameful is that we blame men instead of Satan. While I know we are accountable for our actions, when we understand that Satan uses homosexuality to divide God's people, and when we begin to learn about spiritual warfare, we begin to fight the good fight of faith!
My name is Brother Brian. I am a Christian. I identify as homosexual, although I have now been out of the lifestyle for 2 years. I am HIV+ and God has stayed His hand of judgment and prevented AIDS from materializing in my body. I believe in the Bible. I have sinned. Through Jesus, I am forgiven. Luke 7:47 says: he who is forgiven little loves little. Have you been forgiven much? Have you loved much?
God knows the thoughts and plans He has towards me and those like me. They are thoughts and plans to prosper me, and not for evil, so that I may have a hope and future in my final outcome. Jesus forgives me. Do you?
Colossians 2:2 encourages us:
[For my concern is] that their hearts may be braced (comforted, cheered, and encouraged) as they are knit together in love, that they may come to have all the abounding wealth and blessings of assured conviction of understanding, and that they may become progressively more intimately acquainted with and may know more definitely and accurately and thoroughly that mystic secret of God, [which is] Christ (the Anointed One).
May God bless you and yours now and forever! And may God bless the United States of America!
November 3, 2006
1:58 PM
am 760 writes:
1:31 Is that you Harry Palm. One of your typical responses: When you have nothing of fact or reason to add to the debate, just name call.
Your a demo-phobe: Anything that comes from the left is evil and anything from the right is great according to you. Your a complete dumbass.
Please don't respond to my posts anymore for you are not worth talking to and I will no longer respond to your hate and moronic rants about us liberals.
You have nothing intelligent to say, your a waste of space.
And Hogar I know exactly whats in the Bible since I've read it twice. But unlike you I don't read things into it. I take the simple message of Jesus, to live simple and love your neighbor as thyself.
I don't read into the bible that abortion is against Gods will and gays are to be judged harsly and not accepted, etc...
It is you my friend that doesn't understand the true meaning of the bible. You and you ilk are the modern day Pharasiees Jesus warned of.
And thanks for being accepting about my mispellings, etc... Its kinda hard to do this at work when your in a hurry.
November 3, 2006
1:59 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
JW
I do not believe that I alone have all the truth of the Bible. There are many things, though, that are very clear based on letting the meaning of the words speak for themselves (exogesis) rather than reading your thoughts into the text (eisegesis ).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exegesis
There are simply some things you cannot make the words say. Where there is room for a difference of opinion, I am more than willing to keep an open mind on the issue.
November 3, 2006
2:00 PM
JR writes:
Sure this is outrageous, sure it's shocking. But it's also just what we expect from the leader of a 'social' church that claims to be Christian but teaches things not found in the Bible. I don't think it's such a surprise that this came out now. What's more surprising is that it went so long without being uncovered. The majority of the thousands of people who go to New Life church are bound to try to excuse and cover over this disgusting display. When a church follows a man, and that man turns out to be a sexually perverted druggy, the members of the church will use their man-worship to do whatever they can to make everyone else, those who recognize and condemn the wrong that was done, to be the wrong-doers. We will see demonstrations of 'solidarity' on behalf of Haggard that show that those who attend that church are more interested in their fun, rock music-playing gatherings than standing firm in their determination to follow Jesus' way of life and the Bible principles that allow true Christians to live a happy and successful life in God's eyes.
Any talk of political timing is just a side point. It doesn't make it any less wrong what this religious leader has done; it doesn't remove any of the guilt or hypocrisy from this man's life. Outrageous? Shocking? Sure. But also just what we expect.
November 3, 2006
2:05 PM
Republicans are doomed writes:
The Right is full of these. First its Foley. Now its this guy.
hmm About Musgrave, I wonder...
you never know.
and then maybe Bush and Prince Bandar have something going on. they hold hands. an oil whore and a terrorist. I wonder....
November 3, 2006
2:08 PM
am 760 writes:
Chris H. Read todays RMN article "Accusser timed story with election". It says Jones did not know who Haggard was until about 5 months ago when he say him on a HIstory Channel program about the Da Vinci Code. He than comtemplated telling, but was advised by his attorney to wait until they gathered more evidence.
And I personally don't care what this guy did. It didn't hurt me in anyway. What I do care about is, he tells is congregation how bad homosexuality is, how they should vote against it, etc.., yet he engages in the very same behaviour.
The hypocrisy is the issue, nothing else for me. They are 2 consenting adults, I could care less what they do behind closed doors.
November 3, 2006
2:10 PM
LOB writes:
All the discussion about who is and who is not a Christian is very confusing and almost funny. Christians are human beings like everyone else. Haggard is still a Christian and has made some big mistakes. So have the ALL human beings. So have his wife and kids- (they'll get over it.). So has Jones. So have I. So what? This is actually small sinning compared to Bush starting a war and then losing it.
November 3, 2006
2:14 PM
Anonymous writes:
Organized religion is bad.You have people who claim to know God and 99% of them make a profit pretending to be a prophet.Most people that fall for this huge charade can't be good decent people on their own without someone telling them.?
Is there a God? I don't know.
Is there a heaven? I don't know
Is there good and bad? yes
Can I tell them apart? yes
Is the Bible fiction or non-fiction?I don't know
Can I be a good,decent person without someone telling me how to live my life? Yes and it doesn't cost me a dime.
People should keep God out of discussions that are politically based.God has nothing to do with the mess man is making of the world today.That's if there is a God. I'll find out sooner or later.We all will.
November 3, 2006
2:15 PM
wattanabi writes:
There is an audiotape of a message left by Haggard where he requests "more' meth. Looks like we have another liar on our hands:
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/11/haggard-voicemail-says-he-wanted-to.html
November 3, 2006
2:16 PM
Grover writes:
Rev. Haggard set himself up as a Religious Leader and a Man of Political influence in Republican
Conservative Circles. His personal behavior and his associations as a leader should have been beyond reproach. A man is judged by his actions AND the company he keeps. So simply based upon what we DO KNOW, this man is unfit for the job he was holding and was right to resign. Hypocrisy is almost always impossible defend sucessfully. I would imagine there are some loud and ugly conversations going on behind the closed doors of the Haggard family home.
Mr. Haggard is guilty of bad judgement and keeping
company with one ofthe very people his 'values' claim
to dispise. I guess he skipped over the bible verse that tells us to "quit touching the unclean thing?"
November 3, 2006
2:17 PM
Grover writes:
Rev. Haggard set himself up as a Religious Leader and a Man of Political influence in Republican
Conservative Circles. His personal behavior and his associations as a leader should have been beyond reproach. A man is judged by his actions AND the company he keeps. So simply based upon what we DO KNOW, this man is unfit for the job he was holding and was right to resign. Hypocrisy is almost always impossible defend sucessfully. I would imagine there are some loud and ugly conversations going on behind the closed doors of the Haggard family home.
Mr. Haggard is guilty of bad judgement and keeping
company with one ofthe very people his 'values' claim
to dispise. I guess he skipped over the bible verse that tells us to "quit touching the unclean thing?"
November 3, 2006
2:21 PM
wattanabi writes:
There is an audiotape of a message left by Haggard where he requests "more' meth. Looks like we have another liar on our hands:
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/11/haggard-voicemail-says-he-wanted-to.html
November 3, 2006
2:26 PM
Kevin Jones writes:
"My guess is that Jones is the pastor's dealer, and threw the sex allegations in to grab his fifteen minutes, while trying to make a last second push for Ref. I, hence Jones can't pass the polygraph.
The pastor knows he's screwed on the meth charges, so he stepped down."
Wow, assuming current reports hold, that's a really sharp guess, cynic. You know a few dealers or megachurch insiders or something? I'm impressed.
What is meth's nickname? Devil's Dandruff or something?
November 3, 2006
2:27 PM
Anonymous writes:
There are so many anti-Christian postings on the web in relation to the news reports on Ted Haggard. What is up with all the hate? It's not ok to Christian-bash anymore than it is NOT ok to gay-bash or Muslim-bash or to be a racist. It's not ok to to spew hate-filled glee regarding the public fall of a Christian church leader and then try to use it as an opportunity to lump all Christians or Evangelicals into one hypocrytical pile. At this time, no one even knows what Haggard is innocent or guilty of. No one on earth is without sin. Not a Christian, not a gay, not a Muslim, not any race.
"If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone..."John 8:7. This is a direct quote from the only one who never sinned.
November 3, 2006
2:30 PM
history buff writes:
I will defer to Hogar and the new blogger, Brother Brian, on the citation, because I generally only know the gist of things, but didn't Jesus say something like, the spirit is not of this world, and those that want to reach heaven can not be of this world? Not being in or of this world may not be very practical for supporting a family, but it seems to me that preaching the way would be spiritual, and not of this world. Politics and obtaining wealth are of this world. So, it seems to me that a preacher who maintains an active political agenda and uses his pulpit to obtain earthly riches may be conflicted. He is preaching spiritual salvation but practicing worldly ways. Although, MLK may have been in the same boat. Hogar, can you help me on this one?
November 3, 2006
2:31 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
"I don't read into the bible that abortion is against Gods will and gays are to be judged harsly and not accepted, etc... "
I have given you the passage that I use to support my position regarding abortion. As that passage implies that the woman is obviously pregnant, I have admitted on this blog that I cannot make a definitive case about what it implies before the woman is obviously pregnant. I assume that it implies that now based on what we know through modern technology that you would treat the baby the same as if you knew about the pregnancy based on obvious observation. I do not say that if you do not agree with me that you are wrong. I do say that the words of the text clearly treat any harm to the baby as it would harm to a child or an adult.
Here are two verses from the NT which talk about homosexuality. Please explain to me why I am wrong about the fact that they say that homosexuality is wrong. The fact that I believe it is wrong behavior does not mean that I condemn gays or hate them or want in anywayto persecute them. That does not mean that I am obligated to support their political agenda to gain financial priveleges under our legal system. I support their rights as American citizens and always treat them with respect and courtesy.
1 Corinthians 6:8-10 (New American Standard Bible)
8On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not nherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor HOMOSEXUALS,
10nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Timothy 1:9-11 (New American Standard Bible)
9realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10and immoral men and HOMOSEXUALS and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,
11according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.
"It is you my friend that doesn't understand the true meaning of the bible. You and you ilk are the modern day Pharasiees Jesus warned of."
I have not once told you what you should believe or tried to coerce you into believing something. I have always tried to explain what I believe and how that influences my political decisions. That does not make me a Pharisee. I have disagreed when you say something the clear words of the Bible do not say. I study the Bible in the original Greek, because it is a far more precise language than English. English is a terribly imprecise language, which is why we have more lawyers per capita than any country in the world.
"And thanks for being accepting about my mispellings, etc... Its kinda hard to do this at work when your in a hurry."
Again understand that I have the upmost respect for you as a nurse, and anything I say is meant to be said in a friendly but serious manner.
Posted by am 760 on November 3, 2006 01:58 PM
November 3, 2006
2:32 PM
Chris H writes:
am760 - "The hypocrisy is the issue, nothing else for me."
Same here. But what about the hypocrisy of Jone's profession and the outing of one man? Why hasn't he outed all of his other clients? They were breaking the law, too, by paying for sex. No, it wasn't a "problem" until he actually finds out who this man "Art" is.
It now appears that Haggard hasn't been telling the whole truth either. I'll still reserve judging the guy until the whole story comes out. I must admit, seeing another leader of a mega-church topple for his own indiscretions is not without it's own enjoyment.
But regardless of that, I cannot, like some others, tout Jones as a hero who toppled a hypocrit. That the hypocrisy was exposed - fine, it's good that it's out. But don't even try to pretend Jones was a hero - he did it for his own selfish reasons.
November 3, 2006
2:35 PM
A Military Supporter writes:
I find it incredibly funny that individual examples of religious leaders who break the law and the trust are help up as evidence of the corruption of the institution of religion as a whole. Were it only the same principle with the repeated examples of John Kerry and his disdain for our military proving the same about elite liberals as a group.
November 3, 2006
2:37 PM
JW writes:
"There are simply some things you cannot make the words say. Where there is room for a difference of opinion, I am more than willing to keep an open mind on the issue."
I dunno. Some how you managed to make Jesus right when he said the mustard seed was the smallest seed in the world. Something about Jesus being a genetisist.
About the poster who says its not alright to bash Christians,
I agree. It shouldnt be ok to bash anyone for their beliefs. Unfortunately, the Republicans made Fundamentalist Christians a political power many years ago. Now you are seeing the backlash. This is why separation of Church and State is a very good thing. Because I have to tell you, with all the people out here who fanatically believe God backs their beliefs, and it is therefore ok to try and create a theocracy in America...well, I just dont care that they deny it. Anyone with a thimble of critical thinking can see it, and it makes my blood boil.
November 3, 2006
2:42 PM
Employee writes:
Helloooooooooo! We jumped the gun with John Mark Karr, are we doing this again?
November 3, 2006
2:45 PM
Chris H. writes:
"Anyone with a thimble of critical thinking can see it, and it makes my blood boil."
Come on, JW, you know that hardcore fundamentalist religions (choose any one) say that we aren't allowed to think critically - we must just DO AS THEY SAY!
That's why our blood boils - it doesn't matter how much thinking we do about an issue, the fundamentalists have already had their thinking done for them by a divine being. Who are we to argue with divinity???
November 3, 2006
2:47 PM
JW writes:
"9Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not nherit the kingdom of God? DO NOT BE DECEIVED; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor HOMOSEXUALS, "
Lol, idolaters. You got a crucifix in your church Hogar? Probably, and I am NOT DECIEVED. BTW, you fit the other definition of Idolater too.
All you have to do to be kicked out of the kingdom of God is Effeminate? Damn, what if you are straight, but you just got a bit too much behavior example from women? Kids growing up with single moms all over the USA are now freaking out about burning in hell!
And then we have what probably does constitute the largest group that God hates, Adulterers. How come no one talks about making Adultery a felony? What about registering them as sex offenders?
Oops, possibly one bigger group, becasue it includes anyone having sex out of wedlock (and in some interpretations, in wedlock, but not for procreation). Good old Fornicators. I sure am glad God made it feel so good to fornicate. It will keep me sane thinking about it while I burn in hell for it. Or I could just be sorry about it right before I die...how the hell am I supposed to do that?!
This shit is rediculous. You cant possibly make decent social justice using this crap for your basis, unless you cut half the book out.
November 3, 2006
2:49 PM
Charles writes:
I know the accuser from my gym and have known him for 10 years. I didn't know he was an escort, but know him as a kind person who is there to help when you need it at the gym and moral support. He helped me once when I cut my hand on a weight in the gym, and got me first aid right away. Nobody else cared.
It took a lot of guts for him to do come forward about this when the preacher is lying and living a double life. What more will the pastor admit to by the end of the day today folks? It is like "As the Stomach Turns" daily drama. Forget politics for a few minutes and look at the real issue at hand.
Jesus once warned us about people who come in his name to preach and wear shepherd's clothing. People don't heed the warning well - as we are like sheep that are too dumb and follow the bad shepherd sometimes.
God gave us brains to think too and question. From what this pastor admitted to, and keeps revealing, he really had people fooled. Just wonder how much money they poured into this ministry of this two-face who abused his power. But, he is human like the rest of us. He doesn't preach mainline scripture or do sacraments that our Lord taught us, but he is human.
If Mike says it happened, it happened. I would trust him over this preacher with his flock of 14,000 sheep who were led by a wolf. This was a big thing to
go public about, and I wouldn't sleep so sound after doing this myself. I would be very frightened by the publicity. Martin Luther didn't sleep well after exposing the ills of the Pope and Catholic church either. But, everything worked out for the better.
Perhaps a good thing will come out of this for the preacher. He can deal with things that have dogged him and accept it that he likes men too. He can get some help for the Meth problem. Things do happen for a reason.
We need to realize that if it were not for people speaking out against mortal ills, most of us would be living in a British country here and protestants like Lutherans, Methodists etc. and even that pastor's church would be not in a church where they have freedom. Remember the martyrs of history and learn from them.
The main thing to remember is that we are human and do screw up that the guy upstairs still loves us no matter what.
November 3, 2006
2:50 PM
Charles writes:
I know the accuser from my gym and have known him for 10 years. I didn't know he was an escort, but know him as a kind person who is there to help when you need it at the gym and moral support. He helped me once when I cut my hand on a weight in the gym, and got me first aid right away. Nobody else cared.
It took a lot of guts for him to do come forward about this when the preacher is lying and living a double life. What more will the pastor admit to by the end of the day today folks? It is like "As the Stomach Turns" daily drama. Forget politics for a few minutes and look at the real issue at hand.
Jesus once warned us about people who come in his name to preach and wear shepherd's clothing. People don't heed the warning well - as we are like sheep that are too dumb and follow the bad shepherd sometimes.
God gave us brains to think too and question. From what this pastor admitted to, and keeps revealing, he really had people fooled. Just wonder how much money they poured into this ministry of this two-face who abused his power. But, he is human like the rest of us. He doesn't preach mainline scripture or do sacraments that our Lord taught us, but he is human.
If Mike says it happened, it happened. I would trust him over this preacher with his flock of 14,000 sheep who were led by a wolf. This was a big thing to
go public about, and I wouldn't sleep so sound after doing this myself. I would be very frightened by the publicity. Martin Luther didn't sleep well after exposing the ills of the Pope and Catholic church either. But, everything worked out for the better.
Perhaps a good thing will come out of this for the preacher. He can deal with things that have dogged him and accept it that he likes men too. He can get some help for the Meth problem. Things do happen for a reason.
We need to realize that if it were not for people speaking out against mortal ills, most of us would be living in a British country here and protestants like Lutherans, Methodists etc. and even that pastor's church would be not in a church where they have freedom. Remember the martyrs of history and learn from them.
The main thing to remember is that we are human and do screw up that the guy upstairs still loves us no matter what.
November 3, 2006
2:52 PM
history buff writes:
Hogar, I read down from your quotation in 1 Corinthians. Paul also says that each has his own gift from God. Your gift is different than mine, so how God is revealed to you may be different than to another. Thank God for English. I would hate to have everything one way when Paul says it is not that way.
November 3, 2006
2:54 PM
DMC writes:
The details are slowly emerging in this scandal. First Haggard claimed to not know Jones, then Haggard admits to buying Meth from Jones, which he claims he threw away (right, I didn't smoke that joint either) and now he admits to getting a massage from Jones. Kind of like pulling teeth slow and painful.
Generally speaking, where there's smoke there's fire.
November 3, 2006
3:03 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Posted by history buff on November 3, 2006 02:30 PM
Jesus said
John 8:22-24 (New American Standard Bible)
22So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, 'Where I am going, you cannot come'?"
23And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world.
24"Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
The word world is the greek word kosmos which is tranliterated cosmos which has as its main meaning "system" That is to say the world system of dog eat dog and king of the hill.
AND
John 14:16-18 (New American Standard Bible)
Role of the Spirit
16"I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may be with you forever;
17that is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not see Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides with you and will be in you.
The word again is world is the greek word kosmos
AND
John 15:18-20 (New American Standard Bible)
Disciples' Relation to the World
18"If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you.
19"If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.
20"Remember the word that I said to you, 'A slave is not greater than his master ' If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also.
The word again is world is the greek word kosmos
There are a number of references in John 17
John 18:35-37 (New American Standard Bible)
35Pilate answered, "I am not a Jew, am I? Your own nation and the chief priests delivered You to me; what have You done?"
36Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, then My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm."
37Therefore Pilate said to Him, "So You are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say correctly that I am a king For this I have been born, and for this I have come into the world, to testify to the truth Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice."
Once again He uses the word kosmos.
I describe the world system (kosmos) as get all you can, can all you get, sit on the can and poison the rest. A Christian is called to in the world, but not of the world. Christians can be and are in all levels of society, but they should not behave that way that other people behave. Paul summed it up in Philippians 4:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)
11Not that I speak from want, for I have learned to be content in whatever circumstances I am.
12I know how to get along with humble means, and I also know how to live in prosperity; in any and every circumstance I have learned the secret of being filled and going hungry, both of having abundance and suffering need.
13I can do all things through Him who strengthens me.
So a Christian can live with contentment in any circumstances, because their identity is not tied up in their circumstances.
November 3, 2006
3:08 PM
Cynic writes:
Kevin -
As a matter of fact, I do know a few of both. Churches go down over things like this, and even if proven innocent, I doubt his career willever recover fully. This is a case where even the appearance of impropriety is pretty much a conviction. Think of the recent events at Flatiron Church.
Not judging, but Haggard admitted the meth purchase. That alone will likely get him bounced as senior pastor. The church board will likely have no choice. (and yes, I am on a church board as a matter of fact)
November 3, 2006
3:14 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
JW
"Lol, idolaters. You got a crucifix in your church Hogar?"
No we don't. But I don't know of anyone who worships a crucifix.
Adultery is in the same plain as homosexuality. I know lots of adulterers also, and I don't want to pass any laws to give them financial priveleges either.
If you don't believe the Bible, just ignore it. (to your own detriment)
November 3, 2006
3:16 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
HB
The Bible clearly claims to be the one and only revealation to man. The gift that Paul is talking about in I Cor. 7 is Celibacy for the sake of ministry versus the normal state of being married.
November 3, 2006
3:21 PM
Former Native writes:
Everyone is missing the point. We should accept everyone. People like Haggard can't be themselves because of these mindless judgements. Hatred against homosexuals is the last and final stand for the bigots in our country. We should all stand together. There is too much division in this country. In the end, we are all just people trying to get through this life.
November 3, 2006
3:21 PM
Anonymous writes:
Charles humped the guy at the gym,,, fag
November 3, 2006
3:22 PM
Smitty writes:
I think that Geroge BUSH is a queer and been takeing "IT" from his Buddy FOX for years.
November 3, 2006
3:23 PM
history buff writes:
"So a Christian can live with contentment in any circumstances, because their identity is not tied up in their circumstances."
That sums it up well, and that is basically the point I was trying to make.
It seems that Mr. Haggard, though a man of the cloth, let his circumstances overpower his identity.
November 3, 2006
3:25 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Didn't I hear some complaints the other day about Democrats being tarred for Kerry's gaffe? Where are those complainers today when all Christians are being tarred for the sins of one man?
November 3, 2006
3:31 PM
history buff writes:
Christians aren't being tarred with this thing. A political preacher who holds himself out as being righteous and better than other people got caught being a hypocrit.
November 3, 2006
3:35 PM
JW writes:
"Didn't I hear some complaints the other day about Democrats being tarred for Kerry's gaffe? Where are those complainers today when all Christians are being tarred for the sins of one man?"
Watching you reap what youve sown.
As for the other stuff, Im shocked Hogar, that you have an answer for everything! Ive never met another Christian like that! Er, actually, I guess I have.
Ive never met an economist, or a scientist, or an environmentalist like that. Ive never met a professor of anything that had all the answers, actually.
Ive met plenty of Politicians like that though!
November 3, 2006
3:52 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
JW
Does that mean you are a politician? ;-)
November 3, 2006
3:53 PM
Chris H writes:
"Ive met plenty of Politicians like that though!"
Please don't say you're encouraging him to go into politics
November 3, 2006
3:56 PM
abrams writes:
the irony commenter was pretty good; I have to admit I am in shock; here's a guy who tried so hard to portray himself as this ideal family/marriage man, even had many people envious of his personal life - and now to hear it's all false, fake, a whopper of a lie. By the way, did anybody catch his verbage on the phone message to Jones "...if WE could get some?" Who's this we stuff? Who else is in on this drug usage, really? By the way, I have to take note that Haggard's money to buy drugs, groceries comes 100% from the congregation. Ouch
November 3, 2006
3:57 PM
abrams writes:
the irony commenter was pretty good; I have to admit I am in shock; here's a guy who tried so hard to portray himself as this ideal family/marriage man, even had many people envious of his personal life - and now to hear it's all false, fake, a whopper of a lie. By the way, did anybody catch his verbage on the phone message to Jones "...if WE could get some?" Who's this we stuff? Who else is in on this drug usage, really? By the way, I have to take note that Haggard's money to buy drugs, groceries comes 100% from the congregation. Ouch
November 3, 2006
3:57 PM
abrams writes:
the irony commenter was pretty good; I have to admit I am in shock; here's a guy who tried so hard to portray himself as this ideal family/marriage man, even had many people envious of his personal life - and now to hear it's all false, fake, a whopper of a lie. By the way, did anybody catch his verbage on the phone message to Jones "...if WE could get some?" Who's this we stuff? Who else is in on this drug usage, really? By the way, I have to take note that Haggard's money to buy drugs, groceries comes 100% from the congregation. Ouch
November 3, 2006
4:00 PM
am 760 writes:
Hogar, I know it says homosexuality is a perversion and is not right in the Bible. I don't agree with it either. But the difference between your type of christianity and mine is that you condemn and judge these people, whereas I leave that judgement to the creator.
Gays, lesbians do not hurt me in anyway, so I could care less what they do. Live and let live.
Now if a gay was trying to force me to be gay than I would have a problem w/ that, just as trying to force someone whos gay to be straight. Has any gay person ever tried to convert you? No, they don't do that. They just want equal rights like any other human, so why can't you just leave them alone.
And the quote from the bible you showed me about abortion, again said nothing about a woman causing harm to the fetus. It said if a man harms an unborn that it should be treated as a crime.
Thats where you and me differ again as Christians. You read into this verse something thats not there.
Chris H. I never said Jones is a hero. I guess he didn't report anyone else because they were not a pastor who preaches against homosexuality on one hand and than participates in it on the other.
I don't agree w/ his behaviour or lifestyle I just thinks he's pointing out the hypocrisy of this preacher.
November 3, 2006
4:03 PM
David Hakala writes:
"People like Haggard can't be themselves because of these mindless judgements. "
Sure they can. They just can't be themselves and the spiritual leader of Colorado's biggest pack of homophobes, or the president of the National Assn. of Evangelicals.
And that's a good thing. Ted will be much happier, I'm sure.
November 3, 2006
4:04 PM
wattanabi writes:
When do the police get involved? last I checked, it's a felony in Colorado to purchase or sell Meth.
November 3, 2006
4:11 PM
David Hakala writes:
Nice clip of Haggard from the movie, "Jesus Camp."
And just WHY was that movie at Chez Artiste for one lousy week?! Damn, I wanted to see it! There's a convulsing fifth-grader in there who looks just like my son before he found the Church of Satan. I'm thinking that's where the goblins who stole my only child put him while I got stuck with the changeling teenager. ;-)
November 3, 2006
4:12 PM
Fernando writes:
Hello commentators.. Why doesn't the RMN call this accuser what he is: A prostitute, a male whore, a sex for money harlet.. or any other funny name that is more accurate than a 'gay male escort'? If CNN, the communist news network, can call him what he is, why not my beloved RMN?
Anyway, this pastor is an idiot for putting himself in the situation of receiving a massage from this dumbell. Unless, of course, this guy is a certified massage therapist.. lol. It's not illegal to get a massage, but it might be inappropriate if the massaged all the wrong (or right) places. In the end, this PROSTITUTE is seeking attention, and I can't help to notice that it is politically and personally motivated.
November 3, 2006
4:22 PM
PW writes:
Abrams
The best thing is that it is all tax free to boot!
Hogar
If this is not the very definition of hypocrisy then you refuse to accept the word's usage. What you keep calling "human fallibilty" in the place of "hypocrisy" when Conservatives go bad is a deliberate abuse of the explanation. If I say (proseletyze) that drinking beer during the Bronco game is a bad, evil deed (so much so that people should be jailed for it) and yet I faithfully drink at least one fat tire per quarter of play every game. That would make me a hypocrite, and not somebody who has fallen from grace simply because of my human frailty. The fact is tha Haggard has been living his life and faith as a hypocrite for many years. Him getting caught does not suddenly make him a hypocrite. He has been that very thing all along. (Careful Hogar, this guy started a church just for you and your kind. Did you first meet Jesus when you were stoned on marijuana? Tripping on shrooms? Boning another chick besides your now wife? When? Do you ever think that your enthusiasm for drugs and alcohol might just have transposed itself to a new type enthusiasm?)
November 3, 2006
4:22 PM
Fernando writes:
am 760: I agree with you, (besides choosing types of Christianity.. people tend to interpret it to fit their lifestyles) to a point. However, don't you think gays ARE trying to force us to think like them? Constantly trying to change the laws to fit their lifestyle? Forcing Californians to learn about so-called 'gay history'. Being gay isn't an ethnicity, a race, a creed, or a gender. It's mearly a lifestyle. I beleive I, and other Americans, are being forced to change the way we live.
November 3, 2006
4:23 PM
CB writes:
Does the massage-but-no-sex, bought-meth-but-didn't-use-it make any sense?
No.
Does Haggard think it's more acceptable to buy drugs than to have sex with another man?
Yes.
You all can rationalize this tragedy all you want. All I will say is that there is no reason in the world that I can think of why these two men would be in a room together unless there was some sexual interest involved.
November 3, 2006
4:44 PM
JW writes:
"Does that mean you are a politician? ;-)"
Not yet.
November 3, 2006
4:50 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
am 760
I do not condemn or judge homosexuals, but neither will I say it is OK an neither will I vote to force those who disagree with it to support them financially. I am standing by the side of the road with a sign saying STOP, BRIDGE OUT AHEAD. Whoever chooses to continue to drive and goes off the bridge cannot blame me.
The Pharisees thought they were perfect. I don't claim by any stretch of the imagination that I am perfect, but that does not mean that I will not talk about what is right. Knowing what is right does not mean that I have to be perfect in my life or my message is not valid.
November 3, 2006
4:56 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
PW
The word hypocrisy is from the greek work for actor. It means that the person acting has NO connection with the person they are portraying. Your definition says that a person can never fail in any part of who they are without being labeled a hypocrite.
If a politician has lived their entire life without any outward show of religion suddenly becomes religious in public when they are running for President, that is hypocrisy, it is all an act.
I don't know anything about Haggard, but it appears to me that he has a weakness that has been exposed, but that does not mean that the entire rest of his life has been an act. If you are true to your convictions in the majority of your life, then I do not consider you to be a hypocrite.
November 3, 2006
4:57 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
JW
So what is your profession?
November 3, 2006
5:14 PM
JW writes:
I am a teacher, of sorts. Id rather not give away my identity for some of the same reasons you have discussed.
November 3, 2006
5:17 PM
Hank writes:
I don't like either one of these guys: the pastor is creepy and the escort is a prostitute. But I've already voted and even if I hadn't, this would not have affected my vote. I voted yes on I!!!!!!
November 3, 2006
5:32 PM
Don Luke writes:
I believe Mr. Haggard has always been a closet homosexual. I have no problem with his homosexuality. I feel very troubled for his family.
You have to wonder how many other well known people are hiding their gayness. As the old expression goes: people in glass houses should not throw stones.
November 3, 2006
5:45 PM
Flip writes:
Ahhh . . . this just further proves that people from all walks of life and all ideologies are full of shit. You can tell Haggard's lying through his teeth - who buys meth and then just throws it out? Who looks up a very obviously gay escort service and then goes for just "a massage?" Get the fuck outta town with these lies, Pastor. You sound like you've adopted the Clinton policy of lying where you start with complete denial, follow that up with partial admission of guilt and then the final step - being found out completely and humiliated. It's no wonder the younger generation is apathetic and unmotivated - when you grow up in a wired world that exposes hypocrites at positions of great power on a regular basis, it's pretty hard not to be untrusting/cynical/disgusted. Either people need to start being honest with themselves or we need to start over. Damn.
November 3, 2006
5:54 PM
Max Ernst writes:
I bought meth but didnt use it...
I met the gay escort for a masssage but we didn't have sex...
What's next I smoked pot but I didn't inhale?
November 3, 2006
5:59 PM
Holier Than Thou writes:
There's a vanishingly thin line between homophobia and homosexuality.
November 3, 2006
6:34 PM
RepublicanSoccerMom writes:
Rev. Dobson asks for our prayers, and I pray that the people in Colorado Springs wake up and realize that too much religion is as bad as none at all.
November 3, 2006
6:41 PM
Anonymous writes:
OK. So Ted likes Dick. Let the guy have a little fun for chrissakes. It's hard having to run a big corporation, keep the wife satisfied and pay for 5 college educations. Massage or golf ? Massage sounds nice. Mikey's hung like a horse? So what? Teddy likes it. Leave him alone. Life's way too short to always be the working business executive when all you want is to have some fun every once in awhile. It's just plain human nature. Ever watch the chimps in the zoo? Now that's wrong, wrong, wrong. They should know better than to have those obscene displays in public...close the door for chrissakes.
November 3, 2006
10:18 PM
CeeBee writes:
"To be a cynical hairsplitter, Haggard has a wife and kids. This would make him a bisexual..."
Kevin, having a wife and kids and gay sex on the DL with a male prostitute doesn't make him a bisexual. He may be bisexual but most likely he's a self-loathing homosexual who so despised that fact about himself that he sought no strings attached sex with a prostitute in order to fulfill his urges but not admit his true desires.
If anything, his wife might be a beard. A woman he married and had a family with to distract from his homosexual proclivities. See: John Travolta and Kelly Preston as an example.
November 3, 2006
10:35 PM
unpoetaloco writes:
Of course the revelation was timed. So what? That doesn't make it untrue.
Jones was just taking a play from the Republican playbook.
So far, the only person we know that was lying is Haggard.
He's not stupid. He knew what he could cop to, so he did.
Anyone who believes Haggard hasn't worshipped before the phallic god is fooling himself. Anyone who believes Haggard's version of events needs to ask himself: "Would I contact a gay massage therapist, aka escort, aka prostitute, to buy meth?"
Then ask yourself, after having seen Jones on TV, "Would I let a man that is obviously gay massage me in the first place?"
Finally, more importantly, and a point that no one has mentioned here: The message Haggard left said, "I was just calling to see if we could get any more."
"More" means he bought it more than once.
Is your hatred for liberals so strong you can no longer use your brains -- or have the corrupt religious leaders you follow brainwashed you?
November 3, 2006
10:40 PM
CeeBee writes:
And why would any straight man NOT call a licensed professional for a massage?
November 3, 2006
10:46 PM
Guardian writes:
"(Jones) He said he decided to come out with his story before the election to influence voters. Jones said he had thought about revealing his alleged affair with Haggard months ago but was advised by his attorney that he needed to gather more evidence. He said he decided to come out with his story before the election to influence voters.
"There are two important initiatives," he said, referring to a measure that would grant same-sex couples legal protections afforded to married couples, and another that would define marriage in Colorado as a union between a man and a woman.
"Friends have suffered because of our laws. I felt obligated to get the information out about the hypocrisy of people who make these laws and those who support them.
"It may not change the way people vote, but I feel I did what I had to do. I needed to expose what was happening."
=====
So he did it to influence votes. And you people sit here and use it as an opportunity to bewail your own personal agendas. You're behaving the same as he.
You should be outraged by the clearly stated vote tampering. You can whine abour your personal hatreds after this whacko is arrested.
November 3, 2006
10:52 PM
Louis writes:
The Rocky Mountain News has sunk to a new low. This is sen-sational/sleazy journalism at its worst. You should change your name to Rocky Mountain Enquirer.
Not everything you print is true. And this is one of those articles that is so far from the truth that it is not even funny.
November 3, 2006
11:18 PM
Kevin Jones writes:
"Kevin, having a wife and kids and gay sex on the DL with a male prostitute doesn't make him a bisexual. He may be bisexual but most likely he's a self-loathing homosexual who so despised that fact about himself that he sought no strings attached sex with a prostitute in order to fulfill his urges but not admit his true desires."
I'm incredibly tired of discussing these subcultural distinctions, but I wonder about this. Aren't bisexuals accusing homosexual marriage activists of downplaying and dismissing their concerns and their orientation? Is it more acceptable for a McGreevy-type to call himself a gay man than to call himself a bisexual? The answer seems yes.
I tend to think concepts like sexual orientation are not particularly useful ways of thinking about human life. Supposedly Hugh Heftner has tired of women and now indulges in gay pornography. Perhaps sexual disorientation is a better phrase for our pornoculture.
November 3, 2006
11:22 PM
David Marlowe writes:
Those individuals supporting old Haggard want to complain and say this was brought up now just because of the election. Well, I say to them,,, DUH,,,,
what better time to bring it up,,, don't they want an informed electorate? And besides, it takes a really stupid person to believe a preacher, out of the blue, suddenly has a curiosity to use a particular drug known to be recreationally used by gays, but not get some of the cockpouri that goes with it. Haggard, the hypocrit gets what he deserves,,, too bad for his poor wife and kids though - they didn't deserve it.
November 3, 2006
11:42 PM
Brad writes:
I'd be interested in Ted haggard's response if he were asked to take a polygraph test.
Then I'd be interested in his response to the question: "why not?"
November 3, 2006
11:42 PM
Brad writes:
I'd be interested in Ted haggard's response if he were asked to take a polygraph test.
Then I'd be interested in his response to the question: "why not?"
November 3, 2006
11:43 PM
Brad writes:
I'd be interested in Ted haggard's response if he were asked to take a polygraph test.
Then I'd be interested in his response to the question: "why not?"
November 4, 2006
12:09 AM
George Maschke writes:
While polygraphs may be useful as a media ratings gimmick, they have no scientific basis and are not to be relied upon. Sadly, the myth of the lie detector remains entrenched in American pop culture. For a thorough debunking, see:
http://antipolygraph.org
November 4, 2006
6:29 AM
PW writes:
Hogar
Haggard has to fall under the definition of a hypocrite even under the lengthy explanation of your favorite blogsource.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypocrisy
Haggard does not qualify as someone who is just fighting "personal demons" in his life while cautioning others to not take up his lifestyle because of the many repercussions exemplified by his life story. We do not have a practicing two pack a day smoker with emphysema telling 10 year olds to never smoke. We do not have a heroin addict with rows of needle marks all over their body warning others that the ecstasy of the high is not worth the agonies of the low.
We have a guy who actively spent his church's tax free earnings on "getting out the vote" (only for Republicans of course). He has regularly denigrated the GLBT lifestyle and political agenda to fuel voter participation to quash their "devil worshipping" activities (but really is just meant to supply the Ralph Reed's of the world with political clout).
His sermons never cautioned against this lifestyle. He never once said that being a current GLBT member himself, he knows how the evil temptations can possess the soul. All the while, he systematically broke law after law (the phone records and recordings are enough to bring federal conspiracy charges against him and Jones) to obtain an illegal substance known in the gay community to heighten and expand the physical pleasures of sodomy.
At no time did Haggard present himself in the condescending light of "Do as I say, not as I do." Come on Hogar, you know this guy is a well defined hypocrite who has just been "outed". The Dupes of Haggard (his congregation) have ultimately sold their soul to a man who mocked them and stole money from them (and the rest of us by paying no taxes on earned income). They funded his meth use, and they funded his homosexual perversions under the belief that this man would help change the nation's consciousness to abolish these type of satanic activities.
The question you evangelicals should be angrily asking is, just how sincere of an effort was he making in these matters? The same type of effort that Mark Foley was giving through his "child protection" legislation?
The fact that there is no outrage amongst the Evangelicals for this guy's latent and blatant "faggot rave lifestyle" highlights why the "3rd Awakening" in America is just a bunch of hype meant to pander to a voter base. Shameful, no matter how you look at it.
November 4, 2006
9:20 AM
David Hakala writes:
Haggard got his definition of deniable "sex" from Bill Clinton.
Haggard has a wife and five kids. Jimmy Swaggart, another prostitute-patronizing preacher, has a wife and son. I wonder how desolate their Christian family lives must be to provide insufficient support and bulwark against a temptation that the vast majority of lonely old bachelors resist effortlessly?
These preachers know nothing of the love and spirituality that they preach. They know only materialistic transactions and greed. They buy sex and they sell salvation. They are sociopaths.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sociopath
I'm reminded of a country-western song from the 1980s, by The Girls Next Door:
"Love will get you through times of no money better than money will get you through times of no love."
November 4, 2006
9:36 AM
David Hakala writes:
"You should be outraged by the clearly stated vote tampering. You can whine abour your personal hatreds after this whacko is arrested."
Well, Guardian , if we accept your profoundly ignorant definition of "vote tampering", then let's arrest everyone who "tampered with votes" in chronological order, starting with all of the candidates; then all politicians who endorsed or condemned a candidate or issue; then the state and national parties' finance committees; then the PAC and 527 gangs; then the church leaders; then every man and woman who has discussed the merits of candidates or issues; and of course, every editor and broadcast producer.
Then we'll get around to the male prostitute who couldn't stand his client's hypocritical lies any more.
November 4, 2006
9:41 AM
David Hakala writes:
"And why would any straight man NOT call a licensed professional for a massage?
Because they don't give head, CeeBee.
November 4, 2006
6:21 PM
Anonymous writes:
TedHead = Ted on his knees
November 4, 2006
7:33 PM
Anonymous writes:
Methenger from God: My servant Ted, on bended knee will build on this Colorado rock a new Crystal Cathedral of the new tabernacle. Prepare for the One's second coming, the almighty Mike!
November 4, 2006
8:32 PM
Anonymous writes:
"Ahh, the new GOP. Does it stand for Gay Ol' Perverts or Gang Of Pedophiles?"
Gang of Pedophiles.
At least with Democrats you know up front they are sexually demented.
Let's start a party for straight non-sodomite males and bi-sexual non-sodomite females. Now that is my idea of a good time. We will tell everyone right up front that is what we are into. Let the good times roll!
The Republicans are a bunch of war mongering hypocrites and church going sodomites that do not really believe in God. I hope they get the boot and I am not even a Democrat.
Another meth head church leader. Why I am I not surprised. He was probably a neocon too.
November 4, 2006
8:39 PM
Anonymous writes:
JW
If you think a bunch of loser fligh school flunkies really caused 9/11 then I have have some swamp land in FL to sell you. Iraq was planned many years ago. I think you are being too kind to the Republican false flag war mongers. Pelosi says she does not even want to impeach. The Democrats need to get tough and hold the people that really carried out 9/11 and illegally went to war in Iraq accountable. If they don't then nothing will change.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7218920724339766288
November 5, 2006
2:38 AM
David Hakala writes:
"Let's start a party for straight non-sodomite males and bi-sexual non-sodomite females."
http://www.tshirthell.com/store/product.php?productid=639
November 5, 2006
5:15 AM
David Hakala writes:
JW, thank you for that 8:39 pm link to the "Loose Change" documentary video. I do believe I've just had an epiphany that replaces many doubts I had before watching this video. I must share with a few dozen friends.
But the link you provided is to a video file that contains only the first 54 minutes of the film. This one is the full 90-minute version:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7866929448192753501
November 5, 2006
11:37 AM
Anonymous writes:
David
I like that t-shirt! I will buy that t-shirt! I already voted so I am ready to party. Let us hope the feds do not carry out voter fraud. If the Republicans do not lose big there is voter fraud going on.
I seriously am thinking about forming some kind of party cult where we are wild but not disgusting or criminal wild. I need a cult name. No suggestions from Republicans or neocons please.
Democrats with a sense of humor who party responsibly encouraged to reply.
November 5, 2006
11:50 AM
Anonymous writes:
If the Democrats start investigating the corruption in the Republican party and actually take some Republicans to court over 9/11 they will win in a landslide in 2008. If they expose and prosecute those that really carried out 9/11 they will gain huge chunks of the Indy crowd. Then if they secure the borders they will be labeled heroes and absolutely crush the Republicans in 2008. I know I am a dreamer but the Democrats have a chance to make a real difference. The Republica are not family oriented, they have no business sense and what they did do cover-up 9/11 is downright treasonous in my opinion. I think there are more sodomites in the Republican party now than the Democratic party. At least Democrats tell you what they are into instead of lying and pretending to be something they are not like the Republicans do. War is not inline with the principles of God. There more one believes in God the less likely he/she will push for war.
November 5, 2006
12:13 PM
Anonymous writes:
Down with Faux News and up with RMN! Really RMN is the only true patriot big time newspaper out there. The more RMN pushes for the truth about 9/11 the more eyeballs and ad money RMN will get in my opinion. I do wish RMN would make the blogs so you have to sign-in to post. We could put posters on ignore that we don't like. I would put all neocons on iggy that is for sure.
November 5, 2006
4:22 PM
Anonymous writes:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15566654/site/newsweek/
November 5, 2006
5:55 PM
media critic writes:
I can see why Haggard was an effective preacher. The fear of homosexuality was personal. If gayness is a choice, why wouldn't Haggard just say no? This case loks like anticdotal evidence of the genetic theory of homosexuality.
But the total deception of his family and church, and the lust to have money, power and be a player in politics makes me more cynical. Maybe he was acting, playing a believable part, and not wrestling with his demon.
In retrospect, looking at the videos on You Tube, Haggard talks like Don Lind. Somebody should have seen this coming.
My nomination for next hypocrit to be exorcised by the media? Ann Coulter.
November 5, 2006
8:11 PM
Anonymous writes:
Let us try to keep in mind that God is a myth promoted by man for the benefit of those in power
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/05/cover.story/index.html
November 5, 2006
11:23 PM
David Hakala writes:
I wrote yesterday, "JW, thank you for that 8:39 pm link to the "Loose Change" documentary video. "
And on the other hand, there's Popular Mechanics rather devastating debunking of every claim made by 9/11 conspiracy buffs:
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
This one, in response to the claim that no Boeing 757 parts were found at the Pentagon, is particularly gruesome:
"Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. "It was absolutely a plane, and I'll tell you why," says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. "I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box." Kilsheimer's eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building. Kilsheimer adds: "I held parts of uniforms from crew members in my hands, including body parts. Okay?"
November 6, 2006
7:54 AM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
JW
I understand and I am thankful for the hint of your profession. Just curious and respect your desire for privacy.
PW
My original statements were based on what Haggard orignally said, the fact that Jones failed the polygraph and the timing of the outing.
Based on what he confessed since then, there is certainly a level of hypocrisy, but I think there is still a slight difference. I believe that a hypocrit actually believes and supports his hidden agenda and will flip once he is exposed. So Gov. James McGreevey woudl be my example of that. McGreevey came out an embraced and in fact became proud of his actions once he was outed. He also made little attempt to hide his lifesteyle from those in private.
Haggard clearly has a sin problem, but I will be interested to see how he treats his life from this point on. If he truly repents, (Biblical definition is to change your mind) and embraces once more the things that he has embraced in public, then I would say that he was not a hypocrit, but rather a man who stumbled. If he does a McGreevey, then he was clearly a hypocrit.
I would say that a careful reading of the Wiki definition, that Haggard does not meet the standard of hypocrit, but rather is guilty of fundamental attribution error or double standard.
"Truly believing in one's right to a behavior whilst denying others the same right does not fit under the definition of hypocrisy, but should rather be termed as holding a double standard, thus leading to the most common misuse of the word. Examples of behavior mistakenly attributed to hypocrisy include issuing or enforcing dictates one does not follow oneself and criticizing others for carrying out some action while carrying out the same action oneself. This erroneous application of the word, hypocrisy, leads some people to believe that most people, if not all, are hypocrites; they tend to criticize what they perceive to be bad behavior in others, yet will justify it when they are inclined to perform the same action. Rather, this form of behavior is closely related to the fundamental attribution error, a well-studied phenomenon of human psychology: individuals are more likely to explain their own actions by their environment, yet they attribute the actions of others to 'innate characteristics', thus leading towards judging others while justifying ones' own actions.
Hypocrisy is a deliberate pretense used to convey sentiments or ideas that are false (acting as if one likes something or someone or agrees with a belief or political position when in fact they do not)."
November 6, 2006
8:00 AM
SE writes:
Let him or her without sin, whether they are Christian or non-Christian, gay or straight, cast the first stone at Ted Haggard. We ALL sin.
November 6, 2006
8:29 AM
Anonymous writes:
Channel 9 news carried the sermon on channel 20 yesterday.
I watched it out of curiosity.The Pastor at one point before the subject of Ted Haggard came up ask if there were any parents who wanted to bring their children up to offer them to God.I thought that was down right creepy.Then my power went out for an hour.I guess God didn't want to see me get even more creeped out.
Organized religion is set up so people can't think for themselves and are led around like sheep by people who are wolves in sheeps clothing.
November 6, 2006
8:29 AM
Jack writes:
Se
We are not here to cast stones at Ted (who he "is", is obvious), we are here to point out the indefensible hypocrisy and wide spread intolerance of the religious right. These people are a liability to the republican party and no matter if you think your candidate is good or bad, a message should be sent to the RNC (you can allways vote R next time).
November 6, 2006
8:32 AM
806 days to go writes:
Right wing preacher is a meth head that visits prostitutes. President is supposed to be conservative but has charged his entire budget on credit. Iraq is in the bag except for the civil war and ongoing disintegration into secular violence (have you asked anyone about my partitioning plan, it was a free solution to any party?). I think Hogar and the Republicans are in fine shape. I don't see why anyone could question their leadership.
November 6, 2006
8:34 AM
806 days to go writes:
I guess since this preacher was on a guidance committee for the President this is all starting to make sense.
November 6, 2006
8:45 AM
Anonymous writes:
Pray the Rosary daily. Our Blessed Mother will be right there interceding. Pray the Rosary-The Queen of Heaven never, ever refuses those who ask for help!!
November 6, 2006
8:46 AM
Anonymous writes:
Stockstill, Dobson and especially Haggard just don't get it. The sin he committed was not being gay (or bi-sexual) nor using meth. The hipocracy was being so publicly anit-gay and anti-drug use while privately enjoying himself. I also can't believe the church talking about sending him to reeducation camp to "cure" him of this.
November 6, 2006
8:51 AM
806 days to go writes:
I thought the sin was the prostitution? Defiling the body with Meth is a concern too.
November 6, 2006
9:00 AM
Aaron writes:
He is sick and he should be senced to death, that faggot
November 6, 2006
9:20 AM
faith_lost writes:
I guess this goes to show that homosexuality is not a choice it is part of you. You can't ignore those feelings because they are part of you. It's undeniable.
For the Christian right to deny these people any part of a normal life is unforgivable. Maybe now they will know that these are not our christian values. Our christian values should be helping others and not letting our brothers suffer in their own oppressed desires.
I have learned that there is no God strong enough to stop the human desires and we should all just be open enough to tell the truth about who we are.
I'm tired of hearing the the "Devil" had something to do with it. That is just Bull***. Stop being so close minded and accept people for who they are. Not judge them for their actions. Everybody is a sinner. You are delusioned by the theory of heaven and hell and seem to blame things on Hell when things go wrong. If there was a God wouldn't he be able to stop what you consider wrong in your own churches?
Get a clue. You could only help yourself and stop judging people and denying people of their desires.
November 6, 2006
9:21 AM
Tree writes:
Haggard is the perfect speciman of the republican party. Liars for money and power at no cost. These people take money from 14,000 human fish and some in the sea and don't look back. Dobson is going to supervise his phony recovery? Is this the same as the Bush oversight committee? I can see the meetings already with Bush and the gang of death dropping in.
" Haggard, pack your bags, you're going to North Carolina and dues just went up to 11%." - Dobson.
Haggard, how was that meth....was she good"? huck huck huckity yuck - Bush.
"Haggard, my daughter confirmed...er, Mike Jones.....where does he live, what's his address?" - Cheney -Vader.
"Ok, everyone, erase that star on your belly.. New game plan today." - Rove.
November 6, 2006
9:22 AM
806 days to go writes:
Aaron we know he is your pastor but besides what he taught you Jesus actually says to love your enemy and turn the other cheek. I know with as warped as religion has become that this may be hard to take since you have been told differently but Jesus was about forgiveness and seeking peace.
November 6, 2006
9:24 AM
Curious writes:
Faith Lost-
Why was Haggard visiting and trolling the gay bars in Denver for new fish to come to his congregation?
November 6, 2006
9:31 AM
Anonymous writes:
Them crazy evangelicals. God isnt the problem here, man is and will continue to be the problem.
November 6, 2006
9:34 AM
David Hakala writes:
The devious SOB *still* hasn't admitted to having sex with a man! For all his letter of apology reveals, the "part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I've been warring against it all of my adult life." could be the urge to vote Democratic.
"The accusations that have been leveled against me are not all true," Haggard wrote. That's not how you confess and repent.
"Bless me, Father, for I have sinned... but not in all the ways that you may have heard and I'm not going to volunteer any details you haven't heard. Just forgive me and let's move on." Riiiight.
So, what's true and what's not? Sex with a man; buying meth; using meth; paying for sex?
What sins of which Haggard has NOT been accused (recently) are true?
- Inciting the killing of homosexuals by preaching that "we don't have to debate about what we should think about homosexual activity, it's written in the Bible"?
What's written in the Bible:
"If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." - Leviticus 20:13
- Promoting preemptive war and wanton killing?
http://www.harpers.org/SoldiersOfChrist-20061103288348488.html
“I teach a strong ideology of the use of power,” he says, “of military might, as a public service.” He is for preemptive war, because he believes the Bible's exhortations against sin set for us a preemptive paradigm, and he is for ferocious war, because “the Bible's bloody. There's a lot about blood.”
- The hubris of building a "World Prayer Center" whose high-tech multimedia mesmerism puts a Microsoft product launch party to shame?
- The duplicity of spending church money on homosexual erotic art? Here's a description of the compass inlaid on the floor of the "World Prayer Center's" atrium, from the Harper's article cited above:
"Each point directs the eye to a contemporary painting, most depicting gorgeous, muscular men—one is a blacksmith, another is bound, fetish-style, in chains—in various states of undress."
LOL! There are none so blind as those who will not see.
- Setting his shock troops to pray in front of the homes of suspected "witches", driving 10 out of 15 victims to put their homes up for sale in just one month?
- Bearing false witness by accusing a proponent of evolution theory of "calling my children animals" and threatening him with trespassing at Haggard's own invitation?
- Preaching self-centered egotism in his book, "Dog Training, Fly Fishing, & Sharing Christ in the 21st Century"?
"I want the church to help me live life well, not exhaust me with endless ‘worthwhile’ projects.”
Sure, share Christ, who is free as in beer, but be stingy with your time and money.
(Ironically, in the same paragraph Haggard wrote, "I don't want surprises, scandals, or secrets . . ." :-)
- Driving a Chevy instead of the Fords favored by his idol, President Antichrist?
November 6, 2006
9:44 AM
Anonymous writes:
Maybe he didnt have sex, he just got and gave head. Which is why he can answer the question that "he did not have sex with that man". Lots of gays wont take it up the ass for painful reasons, just blow each other.
November 6, 2006
9:46 AM
Anonymous writes:
Science Damn you!!!
November 6, 2006
9:49 AM
Grover writes:
Mr Haggard is the perfect example of a hypocrite
profiting all day from the very lifestyle he privately pursued (and publicly condemed) at night and in the shadows.
His politics aside, He set himself up as someone whose lifesyle was supposed to be some role model his followers could learn from. I'm sure this is not the lesson he intended to teach. He now joins Jim Baker and Jimmy Swaggert as living examples
of Pride and arrogance trumping good common sense. For me , it is not his homosexual behavior or the meth use that offends, it is the zeal and energy he and others put into attacking and tearing down anyone they
percieved as their enemy either Politically or morally.
November 6, 2006
10:01 AM
Anonymous writes:
This whole thing just serves as reminder how you are better off to put your faith in your own interpretation of the bible and the word of god than you are to rely on a single organiztion or man's interpretation of it.
November 6, 2006
10:06 AM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Grover
I am not trying to justify Haggard's behavior, but I do want people to use words correctly.
I would say that a careful reading of the Wiki definition, that Haggard does not meet the standard of hypocrit, but rather is guilty of fundamental attribution error or double standard.
"Truly believing in one's right to a behavior whilst denying others the same right does not fit under the definition of hypocrisy, but should rather be termed as holding a double standard, thus leading to the most common misuse of the word. Examples of behavior mistakenly attributed to hypocrisy include issuing or enforcing dictates one does not follow oneself and criticizing others for carrying out some action while carrying out the same action oneself. This erroneous application of the word, hypocrisy, leads some people to believe that most people, if not all, are hypocrites; they tend to criticize what they perceive to be bad behavior in others, yet will justify it when they are inclined to perform the same action. Rather, this form of behavior is closely related to the fundamental attribution error, a well-studied phenomenon of human psychology: individuals are more likely to explain their own actions by their environment, yet they attribute the actions of others to 'innate characteristics', thus leading towards judging others while justifying ones' own actions.
Hypocrisy is a deliberate pretense used to convey sentiments or ideas that are false (acting as if one likes something or someone or agrees with a belief or political position when in fact they do not)."
November 6, 2006
10:15 AM
David Hakala writes:
Hogar, you can't even get your hair-splitting sophistry right.
Haggard doesn't think it's OK for him but not others to have sex with men or use drugs. He's preached against both while doing both. That precisely fits the definition of hypocrisy that you've provided.
November 6, 2006
10:15 AM
Anonymous writes:
Haggard is no less of a hypocrit than is Hogar
November 6, 2006
10:18 AM
Anonymous writes:
So Hogar when are you and your lover/meth dealer going public? You may be able to be domestic partners if you wait until after January. The more you talk and protest the more we question your motives. Are you projecting Hogar? You seem like you are.
November 6, 2006
10:39 AM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
If you read the words, you will find that Haggard had somehow justified his hown behavior, while continuing to condemn it in general. If he was a hypocrite, he would have done what McGreevey did and embraced it, or he would have renounced his belief in the Bible. Both of those actions would have proved him to be a hypocrite.
His believe is intact, but now he is able to condemn his own actions as well. Now if he comes out and embraces homosexuality, or if he publicly renounces his former teaching, then I would change my mind and accept that he was a hypocrite.
In the mean time he is a failed leader and sinful person who has confessed his sins, and time will tell whether he has truly repented.
"Examples of behavior mistakenly attributed to hypocrisy include issuing or enforcing dictates one does not follow oneself and criticizing others for carrying out some action while carrying out the same action oneself. This erroneous application of the word, hypocrisy, leads some people to believe that most people, if not all, are hypocrites; they tend to criticize what they perceive to be bad behavior in others, yet will justify it when they are inclined to perform the same action. Rather, this form of behavior is closely related to the fundamental attribution error, a well-studied phenomenon of human psychology: individuals are more likely to explain their own actions by their environment, yet they attribute the actions of others to 'innate characteristics', thus leading towards judging others while justifying ones' own actions.
Hypocrisy is a deliberate pretense used to convey sentiments or ideas that are false (acting as if one likes something or someone or agrees with a belief or political position when in fact they do not)."
November 6, 2006
10:42 AM
Anonymous writes:
When liberals decide to generalize about themselves and exclude elites who disdain our military, then we can have a discussion about painting religion with a broad brush.
Now having said this, I know we will not ever be having that conversation.
November 6, 2006
10:48 AM
Anonymous writes:
sure took 10:42 long enough to say nothing
November 6, 2006
10:57 AM
jay writes:
Hogar,
No amount of spin is going to make Teddy any less of a hypocrite for living a lifestyle that he publicly condemned. This is a losing battle for your blind rationalizations of the actions of the religious right.
November 6, 2006
11:04 AM
Chris H writes:
Hogar:
Your thoughts on Hypocrisy are fairly valid, but you're taking one factor into account that you can't. You make the assumption that Haggard believes his actions were wrong.
Since none of us can get inside his head, none of us can say what he beleives. It's entirely possible he's still being hypocritical. It's possible he's not.
What we can say for certain is that his ACTIONS for the last three years have certainly been a double standard, and hypocritical as well.
No amount of spin you put on it can change that fact.
November 6, 2006
11:18 AM
history buff writes:
The Random House College Dictionary says hypocrisy is "a semblance of having desirable or publicly approved attitudes, beliefs, principles, etc. that one does not actually possess."
I think Hogar is saying that Haggard actually possessed certain principles and beliefs, but an overwhelming circumstance caused him to act in a way contrary to his beliefs and principles.
The dark side that Haggard says he has struggled with all his life must be his homosexual tendencies and desires. Haggard believes that gayness is a sin, and not only tried to resist it in his own life, but warned others of what he sees as sinfulness, a darkness that is contrary to the teachings in the Bible.
Science might say that Haggard's darkside is caused by genetics and that it can't be repressed. Religion might say that it is sinful and it should be repressed by the person. Haggard's conduct suggests to me that his gayness is genetic. To suggest otherwise raises the possibility that Satan chooses to battle G-d for people's souls, and that anyone of us could be possessed by demon.
November 6, 2006
11:20 AM
Russell Severson writes:
Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you; Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children: Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness; But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb ass speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet. These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever. For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 2 Peter 2:13-19
November 6, 2006
11:20 AM
Paul Harris writes:
What so many seem to be ignoring is the man's obvious self-hatred. While condeming his deception and lies, they forget why he did so. Our society placed a burden on him and continues to do so, that has destroyed millions of people. I would like to be able to tell him he isn't full of darkness and repulsive behavior. He is a gay man who had denied himself because he was taught to hate, even himself! I wish I could make him understand that homosexuality is not the crime. Deception, hypocrisy and lying are the crimes. Learn to love yourself and the rest will be fine. Repeat, over and over, "the Lord is my shepherd, He knows that I'm gay. If He wanted me straight, He'd have made me that way." The worst thing he could do is submit to Dobson and his ilk and hope to "cure" himself. Shakespear said it best, "oh what a tangled web we weave when first we set out to deceive." And the worst deception is self deception. As a 73 year old, gay Christian Jew, I am saddened by what the man has gone through and has yet to go through because of hateful teachings and beliefs. The God he believes in is not even remotely related to the God I worship. If He is truly the God of love, then He cannot hate, nor can we. Love thy self, first and foremost.
November 6, 2006
11:38 AM
faith_lost writes:
I totally agree Chris H. It seems that he aligned himself with the republican party and mixed religion with government. Seems to me those who believe in the almighty have to ask themselves if all the outings of hypocrits is God doing some house cleaning and showing the true hyprocrisy of the people who portray rightousness and end up getting caught doing something that is what they portray to be morrally wrong. For example. They are so prolife but don't stop to think about all the people being killed in iraq. Our own troops as well as Iraqi citizens. This is in the hundreds of thousands. But as the president says in terms of history this will be a mere "comma". That statement right there is dispicable. If the rightous right were so prolife. Why do they not care about the people that are actually living on this planet and dying in an unnecessary war. Yes it is unnecessary. There is no reason for this war. That is a perfect example of how hypocritical the rightous right wing are.
Someone like Foley who is involved with a law against exploiting children and there he is exploiting the children in the page program. And heres Dobson excusing the whole thing, saying its the pages fault and it was just a prank. If that was true you would still see Foley on the campaign trail. But no....he is in "Rehab" and his excuse is alcohol and was molested by a priest. Hmmmm.....i guess were supposed to excuse it. But where does this circle of destruction end. It just keeps on going and progressing because no one is held accountable for their actions anymore. Its SHAMEFUL.
November 6, 2006
11:40 AM
gr8fuldude writes:
What I really want to know is where is Dirk Gently been these past weeks? I would have thought he would be all over this topic...
November 6, 2006
11:43 AM
Dirk Gently writes:
Well said, Paul, my thoughts exactly.
Leaving aside whether Haggard is "technically" a hypocrite, the point I'd like to focus on is the way in which he himself and his entire flock and peers treat his homosexual dalliances as the "primary" sins, rather than that he committed adultery, lied, and openly preached an anti-gay ministry while he himself practiced homosexuality. This is a fantastic opportunity to focus on the ways in which homosexuals can be (otherwise) morally adept people, even in touch with "the Spirit", if that's what you believe. In short: does his being homosexual now disqualify him in the eyes of his flock as being a man of God? So far, it seems this is not the case. In the process of their soul searching, will they deem his past works and preachings as inadequate because he was at the time committing "homosexual sin"? This strikes me as a fine time to really put to evangelicals the logical extensions (and therefore paradox) of their anti-gay beliefs.
November 6, 2006
11:46 AM
jay writes:
Theories of demon possession aside. Teddy got caught living and preaching a lie. I feel for he and his family...particlularly for living in a culture of hate.
November 6, 2006
11:48 AM
Dirk Gently writes:
Gr8fuldude: I've been busy as hell. Moving house, working, etc. I would have LOVED to been in the fray these past two weeks, but there you go.
Now I'm sorta back. Though I will be unable to post as much as I did this summer anyway. Thanks for the remembrance, though! :)
November 6, 2006
11:53 AM
Dirk Gently writes:
And another thing:
What aspect of homosexuality is considered "sinful"? Is it just the act, or is it the orientation? It's not like there aren't Biblical precedents for thought crime (see: Ten Commandments: do not covet...). If homosexual "sin" is a thought crime, then is Haggard condemned to hell despite his otherwise "Godly" works? Is there a minimum threshold of homosexual acts/thoughts past which a soul is not redeemed? And so on.
Again, this case provides an excellent opportunity for anti-gay evangelicals to confront the full ramifications of their beliefs. My guess is that any honest look here will mean either that they must accept or reject homosexuality in all forms and instances. No more wishy-washy "cure" bullshit.
November 6, 2006
11:54 AM
Anonymous writes:
WOW! 221 posts on this topic this morning!
Do any of you people have a life?
November 6, 2006
11:56 AM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Jay
I am not trying to justify his reprehensible behavior. Considering the fact that many people in this country believe that his behavior is perfectly acceptable, I find that the price he is paying for his behavior to be punishment enough.
I am simply saying that based on the definition that I found in Wiki, his behavior is not properly classified as hypocrisy.
Chris H.
His actions were immoral and represented fundamental attribution error as it is described in Wiki, but it does not qualify as hypocrisy. I do agree that his future actions could reveal differently, but I believe in classifying things based upon what we know now and the proper use of words.
November 6, 2006
12:03 PM
gr8fuldude writes:
Actually the 221 posts date back to Friday. And to answer you question about having lives, I would say yes given the lack of weekend posts. I would rhetorically ask if we instead have enough to do at our jobs that we can blog all day...:)
November 6, 2006
12:08 PM
Steve Mathison writes:
I echo Paul Harris's comments 100%. I would like to meet with Ted, as much as I used to loathe him, and help him understand that he is not evil or filled with darkness. It is our society of hate and judgment that is evil and dark. I would like all of you gay-hating Christians to ask yourself one question, "When did God ask you to judge others?" In fact, didn't the great Prophet Jesus, the Lord Savior you supposedly worship, try to teach us all through his actions that it is God and only God who should stand in judgment? NOT PEOPLE! You right wing Evangelical Jesus Camp judgmental people are the ones living in sin and disappointing God because never asked you to hate other people. He asked you to turn the other cheek. Ted Haggard is a perfect, albeit ironic, example of what is wrong with your position on issues. You constantly come out with these edicts of what is right and wrong. But you are humans too, just like the rest of us, and you are prone to mistakes of interpretation and arrogance. It is not your place to judge! Your pastors and your preachers are supposed to be filling your hearts with the love of Jesus Christ and God. Instead, they spend way too much time filling your minds and souls with hatred. Hatred based their poorly conceived interpretations of the Bible. You pick and choose what you want to follow--you are the world's biggest consumers of pork, and the Bible clearly says we are not to eat pork. And that's just one tiny little example. Perhaps a church of 14,000 of you all filling your minds and souls with hate should take a step back now that your supreme leader has taken this fall and realize that it is not your leader, other than his own hypocrisy that is to blame, but God punishing you all for your arrogance in thinking He wanted you to get on these high horses and judge others. He didn't. At no point in the history of the world did God ever deliver us a message that said, "I am putting the Evangelical Christians in charge of policing my word. Hence forth they will be the crusaders on abortion, illegal immigration, gay marriage, homosexuality in general, capital punishment, etc." No, God never picked you people. You picked yourselves. And your arrogance is wicked. It has empowered a president to feel he could just wily nilly take our nation to war using lies and misdirection, it has cost our nation a heavy price in world-wide reputation, and the loss of hundreds of thousands of God's children. It is clear that the time had come for the Evangelical Christians to take a step back and consider the consequences of their beliefs, their arrogance, their hatred, and their dedication to God. God has sent you a message, a sign that a lot of us have been praying He would for a long time. We have been praying that God would send you a message that your arrogance and hatred are not God's way. What greater sign do you need than to find out that the leader of your church and national association has been lying to you for years and living a life of pure hypocrisy? No, I think this is a prime opportunity for the Evangelical Christians and all Christians in general, to take some time and evaluate their position on a lot of things. Most importantly though, I'd spend some time thinking about how my religious beliefs have been programmed by other Christians rather than by God Himself, how much I've been so arrogant as to presume the powers of the lord "Vengeance is mine, " thus sayeth the Lord, and how much time I've spent potentially teaching my gay sons and daughters that they are evil and wrong to the point that they must turn to drugs and alcohol or worse, suicide, in order to escape the vitriolic words of their own parents. Take action now and do not vote for Marilyn Musgrave another of your ringleaders. If you don't want to vote for her opponent, fine, then just don't vote at all. But, don't continue in your ways of blasphemy and arrogance. God has sent you a message that every Gay person in the country has been praying would be sent. Send these haters a message, please oh God, and please let them know in no uncertain terms that it is not they that should judge your children, it is not they that should interpret your word, and it is not they that should force their beliefs onto to others. Our prayers have been answered in a way that only God Himself could have brought about. As I am a God-fearing person, I will now start praying that God forgive each and every one of your for your misguided ways. I will now pray that since God has sent you a sign, and a big one, that you will all work to fill your hearts, minds, and souls with God's eternal love. That you will begin to be able to forgive Ted Haggard who never would have had to live this lie his entire life had he not been raised also by haters who commanded in him using their own stick of arrogance and blasphemy a deep and unbending self-loathing that must have been a tortured life to live. I will pray that each and every Evangelical Christian featured in the film Jesus Camp get God's message from this sign, and realize that their work to fill their children with hatred and self-loathing is NOT God's will. I will continue to pray and pray that God forgive you for your arrogance, your blasphemy, and your corruption of the youth
November 6, 2006
12:15 PM
fiesty writes:
I find it hard to believe the back and forth on this blog about whether the guy is a hypocrite or not. Maybe I'm overly simplistic, but I think someone's a hypocrite when they say one thing but do another. At least, that's what I teach my son. By that standard, the guy IS a hypocrite. His motivations for doing so (genetics, tortured soul, etc as espoused here) are irrelevant. Not only is he a hypocrite, but he's demonstrated a weak moral character. Let's forget him and press on.
November 6, 2006
12:23 PM
Dirk Gently writes:
Steve, great rant. Although a paragraph break or two would be nice, thanks.
Fiesty: what are pressing on to? Business as usual? No, Steve here has captured the "lessons learned" aspect of this scandal, which is the most important aspect of the scandal: that even evangelicals are fallible, as they willingly admit in every day instances. But they never, ever consider their interpretation of the Bible to fallible, among a great many other things. Further, they have become so obsessed with something as innocuous as "homosexual sin" that the great good they COULD be doing (fighting poverty, fighting for the environment, etc.) is forgotten. No, they'd rather bash gays and build multi-million dollar worship facilities than actual do the works Jesus was most focused on.
So if we're going to "press on to other things", we should start with the inherent problems with evangelism today, and utilize the energy and beliefs that these folks are supposed to have and commit them to Jesus' pet projects, not their own vainglorious and quasi-fascist inanities.
November 6, 2006
12:27 PM
fiesty writes:
Dirk-
I wholeheartedly agree with your last paragraph. It never ceases to amaze me the atrocities done in the name of religion (any) or the close-mindedness of strict adherents.
However, I do disagree with your lessons learned summary. This wouldn't have been such a big story if it wasn't for the fact that Haggard was not only a religious leader, but one who based many of his sermons preaching against homosexuality. I would argue that the evident hypocrisy is what made this such a story, not the "evangelicals are fallible" idea put forth.
November 6, 2006
12:27 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Dirk,
Nice to see you back.
"If homosexual "sin" is a thought crime, then is Haggard condemned to hell despite his otherwise "Godly" works? Is there a minimum threshold of homosexual acts/thoughts past which a soul is not redeemed? And so on. "
First there is the principle that "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." The concept of sin is to miss the mark. That supposes two things.
1. There is a mark which represents perfect behavior.
2. You should be aiming at that mark even if you always miss it.
With regard to sin, the Bible talks about the principle of confession, whic is literally say the same thing. That is to agree with God that something is off the mark. There is also the principle that you can sin to the point of death. David was an adulterer and a murderer but God called him a man after His own heart. You can read David's confessions in Psalm 32 and 51. Paul held the coats of those who stoned the first Christian martyr in Acts 6.
The Bible also talks about those who practice sin. Think in terms of a muscian or a professional athlete who practices. It is a commitment and a desire to get better at it. No person can know the eternal fate of anyone, though there are indications you can know your own fate, but there are also indications that you can be deceived about your assessment.
Having moved last year, I can truly sympathize with you. They say it is as stressful as losing a loved one.
November 6, 2006
12:30 PM
Steve writes:
I wish the guy would just have said, "Yes, I have gay sex. I enjoy it. Sorry for being such a liar." This crap about "being drawn away by darkness" is just so sad. Personal responsibility is such a wonderful thing. Pretending to be subject to the whims of a mythological demon is just pathetic.
November 6, 2006
12:37 PM
history buff writes:
Dirk,
Glad to see you back. Your nuances are always thought provoking. Your observation that Haggard may consider a thought crime to be a moral sin suggests that he may continue with his story that he only received a massage. As he said, he was tempted, but he did not do anything more.
November 6, 2006
12:42 PM
Dirk Gently writes:
Fiesty: I don't think I made myself wholly clear. I agree with you that apparent hypocrisy is why this story is so huge (among a few other factors). But I would argue for it to continue to BE a big story for the "lessons learned" part: where do evangelicals go from here? What are the theological implications that we can glean from Haggard's example? Etc.
Hogar: I know that you personally have never presumed to know the eternal fate of anyone else. But my guess is that the majority of Haggard's flock are not like you--they "know" homosexuality is a sin that will be punished by hellfire. As you point out, there are Biblical passages that problematize the degree to which this would be the case. Even allowing for confession, forgiveness, etc., this presents evangelicals with the kind of problem for which Martin Luther originally criticized the Catholic church: people "confessing" on their deathbed or literally buying Papal pardons, such that the wealthy and powerful were assured heaven no matter what they had done up to the last moments of their lives (or so went the theology). Or absent that, their lives might even be quantified by a "Godly works" balance sheet. As Protestants, I suspect these evangelicals would struggle with the sort of Biblial nuances you raised.
The theological questions I raised are ones you have answered in your way. But I wonder how would someone from Haggard's church answer them? If they answer in the same way you did, my response to them would be, "Okay, why insist on damnation for gays, then? And even insofar as you advocate a homosexual's 'reform', can you really know their heart? Only they can know that, and for that reason you should leave this between them and God, and go do something more productive, like help the needy."
In Haggard's case, his "struggle with his demons" therefore may be sin, but one unknowable to anyone else but him (unless he were to "slip up" again). Will they continue to harass him to ensure his immortal soul will not burn? Or will they let him encounter his "demons" on his own and with God? If the latter, then this is a courtesy they should extend to all homosexuals.
November 6, 2006
1:03 PM
Paul Harris writes:
Just one more comment, then I'll shut up. Why, oh why do Christians, who claim to accept the Bible as the word of God, and believe in the "theory" of creation, believe God needs their help in running His universe? If God did create the universe in 6 days, including man on the 6th, do you really believe He can't run it by himself? Seems to me that's the ultimate in mocking God!
November 6, 2006
1:16 PM
Paul Harris writes:
I must correct myself. (Remember to engage brain before operating mouth!) It was Sir Walter Scott, not Shakespear who said, oh what a tangled web, etc. Paul.
November 6, 2006
1:17 PM
Anonymous writes:
Haggard and Hogar butt fuck like bunnies and smoke meth while they do it.
Posted by on November 6, 2006 01:03 PM
Another prime example of the shit for brains that vote democrat. Hogar is probably the most mild right winger, but since he doesnt agree with you unhinged whack jobs, you attack him. Get used to losing, you people are making no gains this time around either
November 6, 2006
1:19 PM
Aaron writes:
Oh how HYPOCRISY is at an all time high these days. A pastor who calls himself Christian but yet preaches and JUDGES others in hateful unchristian ways. This same pastor found to be not only doing drugs but having sexual affairs with a male escort. What a hypocrite. I feel sad for his family, hell even for him. Hopefully he learns the lesson as well as so many of his sheep, mmmmm I mean followers, that: THOU SHALL NOT JUDGE, NEWS FLASH: YOU ARE NOT GOD, TAKE A BREAK AND TRULY EXAMINE THE TRUE CHARACTER OF JESUS AND STOP ACTING CONTRARY TO THOSE QUALITIES AND CONTRARY TO WHAT IT MEANS TO TRULY BE CHRISTIAN.
November 6, 2006
1:23 PM
Anonymous writes:
Paul said "Why, oh why do Christians, who claim to accept the Bible as the word of God, and believe in the "theory" of creation, believe God needs their help in running His universe?"
Question for you, Paul?
Why do you feel the need to lump all Christians in that group? Sure, there are a lot Christian extreme fundamentalists who espouse that view, but not all Christians. My ire gets raised when such stereotypes are used.
To be called a Christian, all one has to do is beleive that Christ was sent as the saviour, and follow his teachings. But his teachings can and are interpreted in so many different ways that lump all Christians together is fallacy.
Sure, the same argument could be said about lumping all Democrats or all Republicans into a group - but in those cases you have two National organizations acting as umbrella organizations to the state and local orginizations, so you can have a situation where the National Party can presume to speak for the State parties.
In Christianity, you can't say the same - the Pope would never pretend to speak on the behalf of the Mormon church, and vice versa - but both organizations are Christians, as are the Church of England, the Methodists, the Luteherans, etc, etc.
DO NOT lump all christians together. We are not the same. It is as stereotypical and as offensive as being racisit.
November 6, 2006
1:25 PM
Anonymous writes:
Yelling in caps helps Aaron fee like a big boy,,,like wearing his pull-ups
November 6, 2006
1:40 PM
am 760 writes:
Anyone who attends a mega church does not get Christianity or what Jesus taught.
Do you think Jesus would have promoted these million dollar churches while there is still the poor and needy to be taking care of. He would have wanted money to go to them not mega churches.
Matthew 7:15, Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorn bushes or figs from thistles?
Matthew 6:5, "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward.
6 "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
If you get the slightest understanding of these passages, why would you join a mega church and be lead around like a sheep?
Fernando, I do not think gays are forcing us to think like them. I think they want the same rights as everyone, and that's it.
November 6, 2006
1:41 PM
David Hakala writes:
Lest we forget the GOOD "God's Guys," here's a little story about some of them in Michigan:
http://www.grandhaventribune.com/paid/292224013204607.bsp
November 6, 2006
1:42 PM
Anonymous writes:
Perhaps the gays should start mega gay churches and win the hearts of minds of the public!!!
November 6, 2006
1:47 PM
Anonymous writes:
Jesus loves 152" plasma screens and would smite those for not building churches large enough to accomidate his huge heart. I just got a raging clue
November 6, 2006
1:50 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Dirk
"the Rev. Ted Haggard confessed in a letter read Sunday at New Life Church to "sexual immorality," calling himself "a deceiver and a liar" who has long struggled against dark forces. "
The verse he is alluding to is the following:
Ephesians 6:11-13 (New American Standard Bible)
11Put on the full armor of God, so that you will be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil.
12For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
13Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
All spiritual battles take place first in the mind. Once the battle has been lost in the mind, it is all but inevitable that it will be lost in practice as well.
I cannot comment about his church as I had never heard of him or his church before last week. The Bible makes it clear what is sin, and people are responsible with regard to what they approve of, but there is not real imperative to deal with the sin of those who are outside of the church. The church has a Biblical resposibility to police its own members, but it is always geared toward restoring those who have fallen.
Those who condemn the sin of others outside the church are simply misguided. Those who engage in personal violence against people whose actions they disagree with are simply criminals.
I can oppose referendum I without condemning gays, or wishing anything ill against them. I can agree with the Bible's condemnation of homosexuality without expressing personal animosity or implying moral superiority.
November 6, 2006
1:54 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
am 760
At what size does a church become non-Christian?
November 6, 2006
1:56 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
David H
Looks like a good group. My church is giving 20,000 food items and $20,000 to inner city churches to help with Thanksgiving dinners.
November 6, 2006
1:59 PM
Anonymous writes:
Democracy not Theocracy
November 6, 2006
2:03 PM
Tree writes:
History Buff-
What r u saying....he didn't inhale? !!
Yeah right. And I don't smoke weed. Keep up the funny stuff. I just don't u/s the meth usuage, it's not a recreational weekend only drug.
And, did you guys see the Australian Pink Floyd show at the Paramount Sat night? Wow.......I was impressed. It was the real deal with the million dollar sound and light system. The sound was better than great.
November 6, 2006
2:06 PM
Anonymous writes:
Are people that smoke meth and pay prostitutes simply criminals too Hogar?
November 6, 2006
2:09 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Again, this case provides an excellent opportunity for anti-gay evangelicals to confront the full ramifications of their beliefs. My guess is that any honest look here will mean either that they must accept or reject homosexuality in all forms and instances. No more wishy-washy "cure" bullshit.
Posted by Dirk Gently on November 6, 2006 11:53 AM
All sin can be committed in thought form as well as action. There is a difference in the consequences. Here is a passage where Jesus looks at the sin of murder and its consequences and He reduces the act while increasing the penalty. He did this to show the religious leaders of His day that they were not blameless as they thought they were.
Matthew 5:19 Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder
21"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca,' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.
November 6, 2006
2:09 PM
am 760 writes:
Hogar, once again you don't get it. That was not even the point I was making, but as a Pharisees that is a typical response.
Completely lose touch w/ what is being said, and focus on some concrete #.
Just like the Pharisees in the bible who were always trying to trick Jesus by making him give them some kind of concrete answer.
November 6, 2006
2:16 PM
Paul Harris writes:
I was not attempting to lump all Christians together, nor would I. I was addressing a particular type of pseudo-Christian. But, if the shoe fits, wear it!
November 6, 2006
2:20 PM
Northern Light writes:
Haggard is not out of the woods yet.
The CLOSET is an ugly place. It fosters lying, duplicity, rage, cheating, shame, family violence, and murder (Gacy serial killings, the Mayerthorpe mass murders,.. )
Like you, I am against these things. If the price of ending it means seeing men holding hands and women kissing each other now and then so be it.
Any religious philosophy that fosters the CLOSET, has the side effect of fostering these horrible things.
Haggard is going to try to find redemption from an interpretation of God that made him hate himself.
If he thought his half-hearted example of coming out was hard, wait until he tries to find a new interpretation of God that will actually give him peace.
He will have to question everything he ever believed. I wish him well.
November 6, 2006
2:26 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
am 760
My point was that you made a blanket statement related to size. Jesus preached to crowds up 5,000 men without counting women and children. Numbers don't matter, what matters is the fruit of a churches ministry. You can have small churches that are dead and have no fruit, and you can have large churches that are very much alive and are bearing fruit in their ministries and also spend less per person on things like facilities and staff. You can actually be able to spend more on ministry for those who need help by being more efficient through size. So blanket statements simply provide more heat than light.
November 6, 2006
2:31 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Are people that smoke meth and pay prostitutes simply criminals too Hogar?
Posted by on November 6, 2006 02:06 PM
I'm new to Colorado, but I would guess they are. If you think Haggard hasn't paid enough for his actions, you should demand that they arrest him and charge him and Jones. I haven't heard anyone calling for Jones to be arrested, isn't that funny?
November 6, 2006
2:38 PM
BW writes:
I would think that the "sexual immorality" that Haggard committed had to do with having sex with someone outside his marriage, regardless of the gender.
The Bible is pretty clear that adultry is bad. This can be found clearly in the old and new testaments; however Jesus came to save us from the law. One must accept all of the law and abide by it, or none.
What bothers me most about right-wing "Christians" is they pick things that society or they deem are bad from the old testament books of law, like homosexuality, and ignore the laws they break on a daily basis (eating shellfish, wearing clothes of multiple types of fabric, etc.). And they ignore Jesus's only commandment - to love each other as you would want to be loved.
Quite honestly, I believe that the devil has made the religious right focus on things like condemning homosexuality and abortion so they lose sight of the things Jesus wanted them to work on, like helping the poor. If all the time, energy and money was directed towards ending poverty, imagine how pleased God would be that his people were all being treated well and with respect, and had enough to eat and shelter over their heads.
November 6, 2006
2:48 PM
Paul Harris writes:
I would like to remind this Hogar character and the rest of you, of some FACTS! Now, opinions are fine, and we're all entitled to them. But facts are not opinions. They exist and are not subject to refuting. The Bible that Hogar constantly refers to is a modern translation of a translation of a translation, etc. In many cases meanings were used that were chosen by the translators based on their own biases. Many words in the original texts had more than one meaning and many time translators used the meaning they objectively chose. Then, we must remember, the original writers of the BIBLE didn't know they were writing the Bible. And, I'm sure if we were to go back in time and tell them, they'd think we were nut jobs. They were merely recording what they believed and what they thought about what they believed. And, in many cases, were writing to each other. They also believe that the earth was flat and the absolute center of the universe and that all the objects that they saw in the sky, the sun included, revolved around the earth. They believed that the brain served only one function, to regulate body temperature and they firmly believed that the heart, the organ itself, controled thought and emotion. They had no concept of what the woman contributed to reproduction other than a womb to grow a man's seed. They knew nothing of the egg cell. So, we must use a practice known as "hermoneutics" in studying the Bible. I suggest Mr. Hogar, that you stop smacking us in the head with your version of the Bible. And, possible read it yourself. There are thousands of books you could use to better understand the Bible. The Lord himself teaches that learing is important, Do SO!
November 6, 2006
2:50 PM
Dirk Gently writes:
Hogar, those are very interesting passages. I think I see what you mean, although even here your interpretations are of a somewhat libertarian/Puritan bend: the worst of sin is ultimately interior, and will face the stiffest punishment. According to this interpretation, it is therefore the orientation, rather than the act, that would be deemed most "sinful" in the eyes of God. Thus evangelicals should do as I suggested--leave homosexuals alone, while begging (not cajoling) for them to come to terms with their "sin".
Your suggestion that you can oppose gay partnerships without "condemning" them is somewhat merited, but only if you refuse to vote on the measure: actively voting "No" certainly does constitute an act of condemnation, in my view.
Obviously, I don't believe in any of this notion of Biblical sin. But I would accept that if evangelicals can move on to other more pertinent "sins" and issues, they can believe whatever they like about homosexuals. I would be glad to have their help in eradicating poverty, being good environmental stewards, curtailing corruption, and so on.
Granted, I would ask them, as I would you, whether they take their notion of homosexual sin from Leviticus, in which case why aren't we also stoning insubordinate children, outlawing fabrics of mixed fibers, and avoiding pork and shellfish (my understanding is that the Red Lobster in C. Springs does pretty swift business). But that's another subject, kinda...
BTW, I think the point am760's trying to make isn't necessarily about size, but what megachurches, by their very existences, signify in the way they operate. Jesus preached to 5,000 on a barren hill, not in a forum. Megachurches are enormous facilities with multi-million dollar budgets, gift shops, and paid entertainment, among many other pricey things. One might say this is little different than the huge sums of gold spent on cathedrals. But there is a difference: cathedrals are ostensibly built for the glory of God; megachurches are built for the glory of the congregational experience. One might say that both are wastes of money, but the latter even moreso because of the manner in which it personalizes, even ego-izes, one's zeal/fervor/"feeling of the spirit", a kind of personal relationship with God that diminishes Jesus' command to go out and be a social actor for the common good.
In other words, I see the megachurches as the inevitable outcome of American ideological notions of individualism and capitalism (and, as a Marxist might say, commodity fetishism as well), certainly not the utmost, superior means of performing God's work.
November 6, 2006
2:56 PM
Anonymous writes:
No one likes to hear Dirk talk as much as Dirk
November 6, 2006
3:02 PM
Anonymous writes:
I THANK GOD FOR MIKE COMING FORWARD NOW PASTOR TED HAS CONFESSED HIS SIN AND WILL GO TO HEAVEN, GOD HAS FORGIVEN HIM AND SO HAVE ALL OF US CHRISTIAN BROTHERS & SISTERS, WE ALL SIN DAILY THE BIBLE SAYS NO ONE SIN IS GREATER THAN ANOTHER THE EVIL THOUGHTS IN YOUR MIND WHEN YOU GET ANGRY AT SOME ONE IS JUST AS BAD AS WHAT PASTOR TED HAS DONE, JUDGING ONE ANOTHER IS A SIN THAT IS NOT OUR JOB THAT JOB BELONGS TO GOD. WE WILL PRAY FOR MIKE JONES THAT HE WILL REPENT OF HIS SIN AND NOT JUDGE PASTOR TED, THE BIBLE IS "TRUTH" GOD MADE WOMEN FOR MEN NOT MEN FOR MEN OR WOMEN FOR WOMEN AND THAT IS "FACT" YOU ARE NOT BORN THAT WAY............. I BELIEVE THAT IS FROM THE EVIL FORCES..............
November 6, 2006
3:08 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Dirk
Hogar, those are very interesting passages. I think I see what you mean, although even here your interpretations are of a somewhat libertarian/Puritan bend: the worst of sin is ultimately interior
Jesus was not saying that thought would be punished more than actions, he was exaggerating to make the point that although the Pharisees saw themselves as innocent because they had not actually raised their hands to physically kill someone, they were not above hating someone, nor of paying someone 30 pieces of silver to betray a friend.
November 6, 2006
3:20 PM
Anonymous writes:
They should arrest Jones and his girlfriend Haggard too!
November 6, 2006
3:23 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Posted by Paul Harris on November 6, 2006 02:48 PM
I would like to remind this Hogar character and the rest of you, of some FACTS! Now, opinions are fine, and we're all entitled to them. But facts are not opinions. They exist and are not subject to refuting. The Bible that Hogar constantly refers to is a modern translation of a translation of a translation, etc. In many cases meanings were used that were chosen by the translators based on their own biases. Many words in the original texts had more than one meaning and many time translators used the meaning they objectively chose.
The New American Standard was tranlated from the oldest versions of the Hebrew and Aramaic OT and Greek NT in 1977 and then revised slightly in 1995. When I study a passage I go to the original Greek, or Hebrew, though I have far more experience with Greek , which is far more precise than English, than Hebrew.
They had no concept of what the woman contributed to reproduction other than a womb to grow a man's seed. They knew nothing of the egg cell.
That does not fit with the fact that women were barren in the OT. If they had nothing to contribute, there is nothing to go wrong, but the fact that some women were barren is clearly displayed repeatedly.
If you have a disagreement on a passage, I would be more than happy to discuss it with you. If you simply want to insult me then I won't be playing.
November 6, 2006
3:29 PM
Anonymous writes:
3:02,
TURN THE CAPS LOCK OFF. NOBODY GIVES A CRAP EXCEPT HIS SUPPORTERS ABOUT HIS SINS. THE STATE MAY HAVE A DIFFERENT POSITION ON HIS METH PURCHASE AND PROSTITUTION. GET OVER IT AND QUIT TYPING LIKE A DUMBASS.
November 6, 2006
3:31 PM
am 760 writes:
BW, I agree 100% and Dirk thanks for the back up. What Im saying though is people should find God within themselves, not outside themselves at a church, whatever size.
That is what Jesus was talking about in those passages.
He said when 2 people are together it could be a sermon.
The point is though, think for yourself, read your Bible and study it.
Don't just go to church once a week, memorize passages, and think you are some great Christian.
God comes from within, not from without.
Just because you don't go to church doesn't mean you can't be a good Christian. The best Christians I know are all turned off by organized religion and do much better staying away from the herd mentality.
November 6, 2006
3:36 PM
Chris H writes:
Ok, this thought was inspired by 3:02's nearly illegible response:
Many people espouse the Bible as "fact", nearly to the point of worshipping its words (and in some cases, beyond that point).
The Bible is a book of stories to help guide us on our path of self-redemption. We're supposed to use the stories within it to help make our own decisions towards leading a decent life in the worship of God. I've got nothing against those who decide that they must follow the word of the Bible to the letter themselves, nor those who can quote it's passages. I'm talking about those people like 3:02 who shove the Bible in my face and shout "The Bible is FACT!" Aren't those who do this in a sense encouraging false idolization of the Bible itself? Isn't that a sin in and of itself?
And Hogar, I'm not refering to you, even though you seem more likely than most here to quote the bible - this is directed at posters like 3:02 - who shout "the truth" without showing any sort of thinking behind it.
November 6, 2006
3:38 PM
Anonymous writes:
The only way to get rid of gay priests is to get rid of gays!!
November 6, 2006
3:39 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Dirk
"Granted, I would ask them, as I would you, whether they take their notion of homosexual sin from Leviticus, in which case why aren't we also stoning insubordinate children, outlawing fabrics of mixed fibers, and avoiding pork and shellfish"
The OT consists of moral law with criminal penalties, dietary law which was repealed in the NT and ceremonial law which was likewise repealed in the NT. The moral law was never repealed, but the criminal penalties were under the control of governments.
Homosexuality is condemned in both the OT and the NT. But there is nothing in the NT which obligates believers to punish immoral activities with the OT penalties.
Our legal system places no restrictions on which actions will be illegal and what the penalty will be. There have been many laws which were eventually ignored and repealed.
I for one have no problem differentiating between civil rights and privileges. Marriage is not a civil right, it is a privilege. The government could decide tomorrow to eliminate all laws that provide any special priveleges to married people. It could simply ignore it as an institution. That would not violate any civil rights that I am aware of. It would certainly result in some fairly serious voter backlash in the next election, but I don't think it would cause the Supreme Court to overturn it. An extreme example, but I believe it demonstrates that Ref I is not about discrimination, but rather about deciding who will get special treatment.
November 6, 2006
3:40 PM
Hank writes:
Ouch! My head hurts! You know I think everybody is so polorized on this and I don't think many minds are being changed. It's sad for the congregation and that guy's wife. I'm sure it was bound to come out sooner or later, but I really don't feel that it changed many minds for the election. Some people thank that "escort" for outing the Pastor, but I feel it was a cheap stunt and quite classless. As for the Pastor it's up to his wife, congregation and God to forgive him.
November 6, 2006
3:41 PM
Anonymous writes:
Let us try to keep in mind that God is a myth promoted by man for the benefit of those in power
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/05/cover.story/index.html
November 6, 2006
3:44 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Chris H
Thanks for your words. I do believe the Bible is far more than stories, and I do enjoy talking about it, but I would never try to pressure anyone to believe it. Every person is responsible to believe as they choose. I do believe that what a person believes has real consequences, but that is up to them.
November 6, 2006
3:50 PM
Dirk Gently writes:
Hogar, I understand the point much better now. So...link this into some of the theological questions I raised, could you?
AM760: thanks, you're welcome, and also: your conceptualization of "God comes from within" is basically a modern idea. There was a great struggle over this notion in the early centuries of the church, and eventually the "God is without" interpretation--via the power of the Church--won out. Theologians have written alot, incidentally, about the way in which the individuation of the God-self relationship has been enhanced and expanded upon since the Enlightenment, particularly in America (taken to the extreme in early Mormonism, where every single individual could be a prophet).
Organized religion, in my view, provides a useful and necessary social function for some people, as a means of networking and social support. That said, it so often leads to a kind of insular "groupthink" and mob mentality, that we are seeing this ugly side manifest in highly organized religious organizations around the country. These organizations are de facto political parties that wish to enforce the party view, not congregations of "fellowship" in which people can share their spiritual views and experiences. That is the most worrying trend, in my mind.
With regard to the Bible: the most problematic aspect in my mind is that of its "holy" and intransigent status. It would be a much greater source of good (and by extension so would organized religion) if it were more dynamic, including the writings of Biblical scholars and philosophers since Paul (Thomas Aquinas, Kierkegaard, etc.). But I guess some folks would rather look to the Bible as "truth" as a weapon rather than "truth" as a means of guidance.
November 6, 2006
3:54 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
am 760
Hebrews 10:25 Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
Meeting without a building in the Middle East is much easier than it is in colder climates. I agree that there are certainly many dangers that exist when people get together and there are certainly many who try to control people as well as line their own pockets. But there are likewise plenty who do not.
Here is a passage in the Bible which supports structure and authority within the church.
1 Timothy 3
Overseers and Deacons
1It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.
4He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity
5 but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?,
6and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.
7And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
8Deacons likewise must be men of dignity, not double-tongued, or addicted to much wine or fond of sordid gain,
9but holding to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
10These men must also first be tested; then let them serve as deacons if they are beyond reproach.
Ted Haggard has clearly disqualified himself from any office in a church, but he has not disqualified himself from the church. The only qualification there is to be a sinner in need of a savior.
November 6, 2006
4:04 PM
Dirk Gently writes:
Hogar, I believe we've gone over the territory of marriage/gay partnerships many times, in which you made the case that marriage is itself a kind of privilege, not a right. That's fine. But if that's how you define it, wouldn't a "privilege" extended to one group but not others be discriminatory? I take your point completely about the obligation of government here and the notion of privilege. But didn't we agree before that it should extend to everyone or no one?
November 6, 2006
4:08 PM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Dirk,
"Hogar, I understand the point much better now. So...link this into some of the theological questions I raised, could you?"
I thought I had responded, what did I leave out?
November 6, 2006
4:18 PM
am 760 writes:
Dirk/Hogar I agree that organized religion can be good for the reasons you listed. But it can also get perverted very easily w/ the mob/herd mentality.
Whats really turned me off over the last 6 years, was going by church after church and seeing so many "W" stickers in the parking lot.
I guess I would not be welcomed there because I think Bush and the current republican party is the worst adminstration in this countries history.
Thats okay though because I wouldn't want to associate w/ people who think that Christianity comes down to 2 issues, gays and abortion, and that the republican party has a monopoly on Christianity.
I can't stand when religion starts getting into politics, and that is what the current state of Christianity seems to be doing. Not my brand of Christianity, so I would rather keep to myself, study my Bible and pray for personal direction.
PS ,I would be just as turned off if all the cars in the chruch parking lots had stickers for democrats. Keep religion out of politicis and vice versa.
November 6, 2006
4:25 PM
Curious writes:
Hogar,
You sure want to defend the Church and R's at all cost. Have you had gay sex at any point in your life with someone involved with a Church? Just curious. And if you're lying, we'll know, your name will post in red.
November 6, 2006
4:39 PM
RR writes:
The end times are at hand.
The devil is in the church.
How many belivers are now impacted by Haggards demonic behavior? How many will fall?
The trust in men of God is in question.
This is no sin folks.
This is Satan.
He has taken what many believed to be a man of the clothe and deceived thousands of naive people into the belief that Haggard was the hand of God.
Thank God (He God) found fit to expose this type of Satanic behavior.
Don't be fooled there was nothing Christ based about this. EVER
November 6, 2006
5:09 PM
jay writes:
Wow
November 6, 2006
5:14 PM
Jimmy Swaggart writes:
this guy is pond scum. There is a special place in hell for these kind of hypocrites
November 6, 2006
5:26 PM
Anonymous writes:
Ted gave a sermon four days before accusations of his gay affair became public in which he said:
“Heavenly Father give us grace and mercy, help us this next week and a half as we go into national elections and Lord we pray for our country. Father we pray lies would be exposed and deception exposed. Father we pray that wisdom would come upon our electorate …”
I guess he got what he wanted.
November 6, 2006
6:14 PM
J writes:
One thing that strikes me is the ability of the Pastor to come public as he did -- not something he wanted to do I am sure.
A complete contrast to that of Bill Clinton -- hide and deny till the end.
November 6, 2006
6:17 PM
Anonymous writes:
Yeah getting outed by a gay prostitution is the same as wllingly coming forward
When is it not Clinton's fault
Moron
November 6, 2006
6:38 PM
Patrick writes:
What this story says about our world is very sad. The Fact that the pastor thought it was a better chioce to say he is a drug user, rather then gay, is very disturbing.
And the fact that someone can't pass a polygraph doesn't really mean anything, half of the states in this country won't let polygraph test be used in their courts.
With that being said who really believes that he only got a massage without a happy ending, boy we really are blind in this country.
November 6, 2006
9:57 PM
clang clang went the trolley writes:
Please, on day 1 he denied knowing Jones, then he admits only the Meth part. The church said he was SEXUALLY immoral. Doing meth is not a SEXUAL thing.
Now he says he's been fighting "the Darkness" all his adult life. So I guess he was born that way??????
"I know what you did last night" - T. Haggard 'Jesus Camp'
November 6, 2006
10:05 PM
Kevin writes:
Good lord, people (no pun intended) This guy's weakness and secret were exposed...he lost his job because of it.....NO FURTHER ACTION IS REQUIRED. Now a "group of pastors in charge of his recovery" are going over his finances and searching his hard drive. My god, have we all gone insane. This is between him, his wife and his god. I'm not casting any stones here and if you all look at yourselves closely enough neither will you. THIS IS AMERICA...LEAVE HIM ALONE!!!!
November 7, 2006
10:24 AM
Anonymous writes:
Posted by Curious on November 6, 2006 04:25 PM
I have never had gay sex. I had lots of hetero hippy sex before I became a Christian. I have only been a member of two churches. They both had policies that all leaders involved with minors had to have a State Police criminal background check. No one was ever allowed to be alone with a minor. I am not aware of any incident ever having happened in those two churches while I was a member.
See I'm telling the truth.
Hogar De Vuelta
November 7, 2006
10:30 AM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Posted by am 760 on November 6, 2006 04:18 PM
I would recommend that you are less concerned with peoples beliefs and more concerned with what they do. What a person does is what they really believe. That is to say that if a person does good things most of the time, then it is a good thing to be merciful if they fail now and then or in certain areas. None of us is perfect, the question is what are we like most of the time.
November 7, 2006
10:38 AM
Hogar De Vuelta writes:
Dirk
Marriage is aparticular arrangement which has historicaly been between a man and a woman with the expectation that they will raise a family. Society has long believed that providing financial incentives for married couples is good for society. When the marjority of society believes that same sex couples represent an institution which should be rewarded, they will vote with their pocket books. Until that time same sex couples will not have that privelege. That is discrimination in one sense, that is it distinguishes between two things. But it is no discrimination from a legal standpoint. We discriminate between singles and marrieds, and we discriminate between those with children and those without. Discrimination from a general sense can be good or bad and that from a subjective basis. Legal discrimination has a very narrow definition.
November 8, 2006
11:40 AM
666 writes:
Hogar
Failing to approve wholeheartedly of a change in social dynamics is one thing, but an ideological campaign waged to deprive a demographic of rights allowed other demographics based strictly on lifestyle criteria. The GOP campaign has been, for quite some time now, not just failing to approve of same-sex unions but actively attacking homosexuality wholesale. Just take the time to peruse the legion of posts from unsigned (and somewhat illiterate) posters on this blog who vehemently oppose any kind of social acceptance for homosexuality at all. These slavering hatemongers, though not the only representatives of the GOP voter base, are the ones to whom the GOP is marketing its anti-gay platform, and apparently there's enough of them to make a difference.
It's not enough for Republican politicians to oppose same-sex marriage. No, they apparently must also defeat Ref. I, which offered not marriage but equal rights. They don't want to be seen by the fervent anti-gay voters as failing to uphold the ideology. They didn't need to follow up their cross-check with a kick to the head, but they did it anyway to appease people like James Dobson and Fred Phelps.
No matter how finely you split hairs and argue semantics, you can't change the fact that the Republican party capitalizes on people's hatred of homosexuality; they campaign on ignorance and discrimination.
November 8, 2006
2:09 PM
Rick writes:
Now Dobson has dropped out of the effort to re-program Brother Ted, saying he doesn't have the time.
I guess when you are busy tracking Perlmutter's "homosexual youth," showering with young boys in need of proper hetero-models, and otherwise single-handedly defending heterosexuality as we know, there's not a lot of time left over strap Brother Ted's testies to the electrodes and listen to hours and hours of meth-fueled man sex.
November 13, 2006
9:01 AM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
Posted by 666 on November 8, 2006 11:40 AM
I do not support any sort of personal hatred for sinners. I consider homosexuality to be a sin, as I do many things that many people including myself do every day. I consider it one of the more heinous sins, but that does not mean that I support any sort of personal animosity towards its practitioners.
So to the extent that people direct personal animosity toward homosexuals, I do not agree with it, and I do not support it.
I do not care if homosexuals get married, except that it brings with it, as ref I did with civil unions, certain economic priveleges and forces employers who do not agree with same sex unions to support them.
That priveleged status is today only conferred on hetero marriage. People have a right to confer that privelege on whomever they want.
If Ref I had not conferred economic privelege, it may have passed.