Discussion

• December 12, 2006

  2:41 PM

  gr8fuldude writes:

  It is one sad damn day when ICE doing their f*cking job is newsworthy.

• December 12, 2006

  2:48 PM

  Elwood writes:

  I just hope all the Identity thieves get prosecuted and deported (if they are legal and stole identity, this is a felony), and also that Swift gets a nice fat fine!

  Maybe then the Colorado AG will have enough funds to pursue more of these violations.

• December 12, 2006

  2:59 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  The raid has the UFCW's panties in a bunch too. Maybe the Unions need to have a requirement that their members be "legal" as well as the employers.

• December 12, 2006

  3:07 PM

  Liberal Hypocrisy writes:

  This is just another act by the nanny state controlling our lives. Caveat Emptor! Let the public protect itself without the government stepping in and controlling businesses.

• December 12, 2006

  3:08 PM

  Pancho Villa writes:

  ¡Viva la Migra!

• December 12, 2006

  3:19 PM

  Nasty not just at Christmas writes:

  From the article:
  "Monica Mills, 21, is looking for her husband, Tommy Ochoa, who is undocumented but has worked at the plant for seven years.

  "Who's going to support my kids? What am I suppose to do now? How do I tell my children what happened to their father?" Mills asked."

  Guess it will be hard to tell them that you married (or just bred with) someone who has broken the law every day of their short lives, and that he has now been caught and must face the consequences. Besides, winter will be a wonderful time to visit Daddy in whatever warm southern country he is native to.

  Now about the woman with the protest sign saying "don't take my parents at Christmas" ... anyone go over and check her papers?

• December 12, 2006

  3:25 PM

  Wingnuts writes:

  It's the fudgepackers that we are concerned about.

• December 12, 2006

  3:33 PM

  This sums up the whole damn issue in a nutshell... writes:

  Draped in a Mexican flag with a picture of Our Lady of Guadalupe on it, Lupe Tapia said, "This is a day we should all be celebrating. Instead we're in mourning.

• December 12, 2006

  3:44 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Was wondering when the hell they were going to hit the packing plants. I just read an article that one in 8 people are having their social security numbers used by these illegals so they can gain employement. People dont find out until fraud or failure to pay taxes happen. Most dont even find out about the fraud till its way to late because they use a different name connected with the social security number. Our lovley goverment (thanks fo loony liberals and they screams for privacy for ciminals) they cant find out whos social is connected to whos name, its just a number. Gas Chambers will solve this problem and its also preventitive. Aint no one gonna come running with gas chamebers cooking em up day and night.

• December 12, 2006

  3:49 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Next on the adgenda:

  - Construction Companies
  - Landscaping Companies
  - Longmont Foods

• December 12, 2006

  4:05 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Pecker Woods ...Has I drive into work I see all kindas Honkey Tonks breaking laws. You are the true illegals! You know that right?
  NO...because you're White priviledge you think there is everything right about these raids on hard working people who come here to seek better working and living conditions. Unlike you and I they don't eat up their employer's time by blogging all this hater nonsense. I won't even try to play up to the human side and ask you to have some compassion on the poor families you are devastated by this because you're not human...You are White trash. You have NO heart. You get your hard on off the misery of poor colored peoples. You invade and destroy. You are sons of the devil. You will rot in hell. You are the White devils that came over from Europa with nothing on your backs but water. You are the true wet backs. You are the illegals and that's what you can't stand Pecker wood. The truth. I'm so damn mad right now I'd like to see a few more...You rotten bunch of freaks. You're so White but not right!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

• December 12, 2006

  4:11 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Hey pal, 4:05 is a little early to be hitting the booze, don't you think?

• December 12, 2006

  4:12 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Allard an Musgrave? Happy? Praised this effort? Don't they have something better to do with our tax paying monies? Well we're at it lets raid hospitals and schools.
  Hey let's start huntiing down the European illegals as well!!!
  Racist PIGS

• December 12, 2006

  4:13 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  4:05
  I bet you see a felon every time you look into the mirror too.

• December 12, 2006

  4:21 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  4:13 You stupid blog of infested white hatred. What you see go down you toliet bowl is all you will ever amount to be. WHITE CRAP!!!
  Why don't you go chew on some tofu and shut the hell up!!!

• December 12, 2006

  4:24 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  At least I'm not a felon!

• December 12, 2006

  4:27 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  4:12,
  "Hey let's start huntiing down the European illegals as well!!!"

  You bet, any of them using false identity papers are subject to the same law.

• December 12, 2006

  4:37 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  4:24 You stupid son of a white grave digger. Yes, you are. You are A FELON. You are in Native country. You are illegal as illegal can get. What's more your whole life is a lie!
  Plus you're not wanted here. And to top it off you're in denial. Must be tough to be white and to think you're right when you're just really stupid and white at the same damn time.

• December 12, 2006

  4:42 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  4:37,
  At least I have proper documentation keeping me from being deported. Go back to the sewer you came from.

• December 12, 2006

  4:46 PM

  769 days to go writes:

  This problem is identity theft and that was why they went after this population. They were not only illegal immigrants working illegally they were stealing identities too. This was not racist it was an opportunity provided by compounded illegal activity. I hope they send them home and take the property they have stolen with the fake identification. Too bad they cannot fine the employer but they complied with the law and cooperated with law enforcement. The good news is there is a 1500 dollar signing bonus if you want to cut beef. Next I bet the workplace becomes safer for the LEGAL employees. I wonder how many laws were skirted because the workers could be put under duress.

• December 12, 2006

  4:54 PM

  Elwood writes:

  I'm sure someone knew there were illegals working (Accounting department's first employee list sorted by SSN would have shown this), but trying to prove it in America's legal system will be impossible. Along with the policy of "don't ask, don't tell" means Swift will get off with only the loss of productivity.

• December 12, 2006

  4:55 PM

  Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

  Let Justice Roll Down
  Martin Luther King Jr.
  
  

• December 12, 2006

  5:24 PM

  jay writes:

  Great to see the demand side of the equation getting the attention it deserves.

• December 12, 2006

  5:25 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  One step at a time!

• December 12, 2006

  5:29 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Swift probably won't lose any production since there are enough "illegals" in Greeley to cover the next few weeks of work until the next raid.

  Now to come up with a system that checks the name and SSN submitted vs what is stored in Washington's master list.

• December 12, 2006

  5:38 PM

  JW writes:

  "Great to see the demand side of the equation getting the attention it deserves."

  What? Is this sarcasm?

  How does this cut demand for labor that is cheaper than Americans?

  Illegals are still cheaper to use as labor. This didnt do anything about the demand.

• December 12, 2006

  5:51 PM

  jay writes:

  Sarcasm at its finest

• December 12, 2006

  6:18 PM

  mad cow writes:

  Great! Shut them down and let them eat chiken.

• December 12, 2006

  6:45 PM

  gabriel long writes:

  i live here in weld co and it's past time there here doing there job! I hope there going to go door to door and take all of them so we can have our job's back and our school's and our town! You broke our law coming here then broke more law's send them all back and one more thing i hope the bank's that let them buy house's and car's eat all of it!

• December 12, 2006

  7:03 PM

  Ronald Reagan writes:

  Time to start kicking some ass. I remember this past spring, flying the Mexican flag in the USA and demanding "rights" that are nonexistent to illegal lawbreaking alien invaders. Let's get it on.

• December 12, 2006

  8:06 PM

  Common Sense writes:

  I'm getting a kick out of reading all of the uninformed posts by the "anti-white" crowd ... Latino's have little room to talk about European whites being here illegally - where do you believe most of the Latino's came from? Yes, that's right - SPAIN ... NOT AZTECA - read your history books!

  Funny how something that wasn't illegal hundreds of years ago (claiming territory) is justification for breaking the laws now (like "we're the indigineous people of the U.S.").

  Keep trying to prove your point, pro-amnesty peeps. The louder you talk, the more guilty you look.

• December 12, 2006

  8:10 PM

  Are You Serious? writes:

  Those of you attempting to justify the lawbreakers who were arrested yesterday, don't forget that you are often the ones bringing up the "race" card first - so don't go around spouting "prejudice." Take a look in the mirror first. You are a bunch of hypocrites.

  Don't think for one stinking minute that a lot of Americans have forgotten your ILLEGAL immigrant rallies from this past spring - you are bringing a lot of this unwanted attention upon yourself. If you had just laid low, shut up, and made any semblance of attempt to be an AMERICAN - these raids would not be happening.

  Reminds from of a rap song from Whodini in the mid-80s - "you brought it on yourself" - how true it is.

• December 12, 2006

  8:18 PM

  LEGAL American writes:

  Woohoo - power to the LEGAL American whether they be BROWN, BLACK, YELLOW, or WHITE!

  Illegals - your lawbreaking ways are not welcome here.

  La Raza = Cola

• December 12, 2006

  8:53 PM

  9inch3slong writes:

  hope u white trash enjoy the jobs that will be available to you after all these raids are over and done with because u will find out what hell is like in these jobs for a miserable salary, and then go cry for them to come back... "with blood in your hands from finding out what real work is"-realizing what working with blood, sweat and tears is like, because ive tried my share and i give them all the props in the world that they can handle those jobs!! GO MEXICANOS-- i will be waiting here with an open job when white companions go crying for ya back

• December 12, 2006

  10:00 PM

  nailtheemployer writes:

  As UFCW Local#7 Ernest L. Duran states the union is for all workers, legal and illegal..ya think its because each member puts a few more bucks in his pocket even when the illegals drive down market values of the legal workers? hey even the city of Greenwood village has non-english speaking employees.

• December 12, 2006

  10:37 PM

  Frontline writes:

  If only they'd start raiding the infested workplaces en masse like this on a daily basis – I might actually become convinced that they were actually trying to enforce the laws of our nation and that our beautiful state was becoming safe and sovereign again…

• December 12, 2006

  11:13 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Who fucked up the twin towers? Who is that fuckin white boy who bombed the fedral building in oklahoma? Ya they are the ones that need to be taken away. I think we have some hispanics fighting over seas for this corrupted nation, not just white.oh well. fuck the twin towers let all those white people burn who died in those bulidings, I wouldnt be surprised that those buildings were built by hispanics.

• December 12, 2006

  11:36 PM

  USCitizen writes:

  The wages might just increase at Swift to a point where a U.S. Citizens can make a decent wage, and Greeley can become prosperous again.

• December 12, 2006

  11:44 PM

  Kevin Jones writes:

  So who was the moronic agent who decided the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe was a good day for a raid on illegals? On the ground, it adds needless hostility to an already tense situation. Politically, it makes for bad press and for a rallying symbol for illegals and their allies.

  Cesar Chavez's marching workers often used the Virgin's image in their activism. I even heard this history invoked today at my mostly-white church's feast day mass. Get a clue, government people. I bet only scheduling this raid for Cinco de Mayo could tick off Mexicans more.

• December 13, 2006

  5:07 AM

  gwats writes:

  I married my lovely Filipina Bride in June, 1991, in Hong Kong. I spent the next six months in the US alone busting my ass to get her immigrated legally so we could spend Xmas together in Denver. She arrived Dec. 21, 1991..six months after our wedding. It was the toughest thing I ever went through. 15 years later, She is a new US Citizen and STILL my wife. She thinks slipping into this Country under cover of darkness & stealing another person's identity just to work here is disgusting and should be punished severely under the law.
  I agree.
  These people want sympathy
  and understanding while they take the very laws that provide opportunity and hope for a better life and grind them under their feet by commiting the FELONY of idenitity theft against American Citizens? If they want understanding from me, It's going to be along wait. They might want to bring a lunch and lawn chair.

• December 13, 2006

  5:35 AM

  Jerry writes:

  I think its about time this happened. I am sick of these people coming here demanding rights. What would happen if we went to Mexico and demanded the same thing. We would be put in jail.
  You look where these spics live the neighborhood lokks like Mexico dirty and stinky. Leave your disease at home. Also dont get them angry when they are ina bunch and they are drunk they cant do a one on one they will jump you all at once. My hats off to ice its about time. I have had enough paying for these Rio Grande Rejects

• December 13, 2006

  5:50 AM

  Charley Monfort writes:

  Who cares what day of the week these illegals get picked up. It should be every day of the week until they understand that they
  will follow our laws and stand in line like all others. These same Mexicans have made my blood boil since they were waving the Mexican flag in the USA this past spring, screwing up all my holidays in between. It is way past time for them to go. As for Swift, "Beef it's Whats Not for Dinner".

• December 13, 2006

  5:55 AM

  gene johnson writes:

  Most of you people are sick!
  These people are members of the human race. There is a right way and a wrong way to control the immigration problem. Now we have children with missing parents and husbands/wives without each other. That is awesome. I love living in this christian nation where we love all.

• December 13, 2006

  5:57 AM

  David Hakala writes:

  ICE sub poenaed Swift's documentation of its workers in March, and presumably verified all of them prior to the raids. So nobody should be wrongfully detained.

  Any bets on that?

  I hope everyone's purchased their Christmas dinners already. The price of meat and poultry is going to jump, just like the price of produce, thanks to all the red-blooded American citizens who aren't rushing to fill the jobs being abandoned by non-residents. Here's a look at what's rotting in Texas fields these days, from the Houston Press, Westword's sister paper:

  http://tinyurl.com/yb9odu

• December 13, 2006

  6:14 AM

  Bobthebuilder writes:

  As a superintendent in the construction industry, I have been fighting a holding action for years as I required that the men supplied to my sites be capable of understanding my directions in English for both safety and quality control purposes. When the protests were sheduled in May, I made it clear that anyone who didn't work on Mon., May 1 would not be working on my site on Tues. Everyone showed up. When you enforce standards, standards (laws) are respected. The images in the Rocky this morning give me hope for the first time in a few years. Now, actively pursue the management team that turns a blind eye to the law-breaking that creates their profits. For the bleeding hearts: If I embezzle on Christmas, I get arrested; If I commit an assault on the Fourth of July, I get arrested; If I am breaking a law on the Feast Day of the Lady of Guadalupe, I GET ARRESTED. Do NOT complain to me if your lifestyle choice (illegal entry, conspiracy to commit forgery and fraud) brings you into contact with law enforcement.

• December 13, 2006

  6:16 AM

  M M writes:

  It is about time!

• December 13, 2006

  6:33 AM

  mi writes:

  it is about time and it is time to continue to pick up all the illegals and send them back. I'm sick of them crying about this - they broke the law and now they are yelling "Nazi" - yeah right .. You break the law, you pay the price. Too bad, so sad.

• December 13, 2006

  6:38 AM

  Bob Finney writes:

  Lets not forget the people who's identity these illegals stole, what about the problems they face?
  I'm more then willing to pay extra for products that are made without illegals. I'll save money by not having to pay for their medical services.
  Swift also should be punished with a fine.

• December 13, 2006

  6:39 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Ha Ha Ha! Human Beans go home.

• December 13, 2006

  6:54 AM

  WILLIE B. writes:

  It's about time. I am tired of going into any major big box store and seeing signs and announcements in spanish. I don't hold anything against anyone who wants to come to the U.S. and play by the rules. I feel sorry for all the little kids I see in the stores who can't speak english. What kind of life will they have. We are becoming foreigners in our own country. More of this needs to be done. Go after the employers and maybe this will all stop!!!!

• December 13, 2006

  6:59 AM

  fiesty writes:

  bobthebuilder-

  Thank you! We need more employers like you.

• December 13, 2006

  7:07 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  So, let me get this right- the authorities enforcing the law are wrong, and those knowingly breaking the laws and purposely hurt others in the process are right? I don’t think so.

  First, a person’s situation or plight doesn’t validate or excuse any subsequent action they take.

  Second, if those actions are illegal or morally wrong, then that individual should both: 1) accept the responsibility for what they did, rather than try to shift the blame to another or excuse the behavior, and 2) expect to face the consequences, no matter how painful.

  Lastly, I definitely feel sympathy and compassion for another’s situation or plight, but that doesn’t mean I should be coerced into condoning or supporting their actions through name-calling or emotional manipulation.

  We have a prime example of both on this blog- racist name calling by 403 and 413, and Gene's comments about humanity and being a Christian nation. Well, does being humane or being Christian mean we should no longer enforce any of our laws? Drunk drivers often have families to support, so should we not punish them? The poor in ghettos in this country live under horrible circumstances, so should that excuse robbing a store and injuring someone in the process? This is no different.

• December 13, 2006

  7:20 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  When will you print a multi-page story about the legal Americans who had their identities stolen? Don't forget the front page picture of the families that have been devasted by identity theft. Enough of the sympathetic coverage. The illegals are breaking the laws, don't you understand?
  ICE didn't plan the arrests for the holiday of Guadalupe. If people would check, the arrests have been planned for sometime and Swift asked that the arrests be put on hold because Japanese dignitaries were in the plant on MONDAY, DEC. 11th. The illegals who continue to break the laws don't have any rights in this country. Maybe they should try obeying the laws like legal citizens.

• December 13, 2006

  7:23 AM

  meforpeace writes:

  Since all the families are standing by PROTESTING, why not bring another bus and give them a ride"BACK TO THEIR OWN HOME", then they would be together !!

• December 13, 2006

  7:25 AM

  JIMCSAGE writes:

  NO SYMPATHY FOR PEOPLE WHO STEAL RIGHTS AND I D FROM AMERICAN CITIZENS, "WE ARE HUMAN TOO"

• December 13, 2006

  7:29 AM

  meforpeace writes:

  Since all the families are standing by PROTESTING, why not bring another bus and give them a ride"BACK TO THEIR OWN HOME", then they would be together !!

• December 13, 2006

  7:31 AM

  Chris writes:

  Its about time!!! I am so sick of so many Mexicans living here. Its like you can't go to a fast food restaurant and get what you ordered because the can"t understand English. I hope the ICE continues this and busts as many of them as they can. Get rid of them!!!

• December 13, 2006

  7:33 AM

  Michael writes:

  I hope this sends a message. I hope it puts fear...YES FEAR...into all those that think they can ignore US laws and that they are above them, better than them, and should not be held to them because they are of a certain ethnicity and homeland. There is a reason there is a blindfold on the statue of justice, as our laws should be blind to all things other than the law. The arrogance of these Mexicans is just amazing.

• December 13, 2006

  7:34 AM

  patrick hale writes:

  I noticed that there is a lot of racism on this issue. The bottom line is that ill leageal imigration is just that. it doesn't matter what color your skin is. There is a due process to becoming a U.S. citizen and if violated that person should be banned from this country for life. I understand, and am compasonate with why alot of Mexicans would want to come to the United States, however if they want to live a better life and earn more money, than it is their responsibility to change their country. How dare Some of these people put up the Mexican flag and turn the U.S. flag upside down underneath it. The constitution protects the rights of it's citizens, not illeal citizens wheather they are from Germany (white) or Mexico (brown). race is not the issue here it is people breaking the laws, expically stealing someone eles's identy. Before these illegals get deported they need to serve some kind of time, and then be told if they are ever found in this country illeagly again they will serve serious prison time. I have no problem with leagally imigrating to this country.

• December 13, 2006

  7:39 AM

  Gerry writes:

  Long overdue...more shameful is the Catholic Church response and their sadness on the feast day of "Our Lady of Guadalupe" Their refusal to acknowledge sin among their illegal alien flock and uphold the Ten Commandments is alienating millions of lifelong Catholics who have a fully-formed conscience and know right from wrong. All sin is overlooked just because someone wants to improve their economic circumstances. Have you ever heard the Hispanic Ministries say it is sinful to STEAL someone's Social Security Number, sinful to LIE about your name and address when going to a hospital, sinful to CHEAT American school children who are sharing limited resources with non-citizens who speak another language? Is there any mention of STEALING American taxpayer dollars when aliens get pregnant and force others to pay for the medical care and their new citizen offspring now eligible for Medicaid, education and voting? Catholic Charities has now become the financial support for continued lawlessness and reward for sinful behavior--housing, language classes, job support, free attorneys, translators on demand. The Catholic Church continues to enable sin when they refuse to ask their illegal alien faithful to obey our laws and the Ten Commandments. Let's pray that they do the right thing and ask these families to be re-united in their home country.

• December 13, 2006

  7:49 AM

  RH writes:

  There goes the price of beef.

• December 13, 2006

  7:55 AM

  Michael writes:

  To RH:

  I agree with you 100% on the position of the Catholic Church. It is SHAMEFUL. I am a catholic who finally went back to the Church after 30 years - and this issue once again drove me away.

• December 13, 2006

  7:59 AM

  J writes:

  It is very dissapointing to read all the comments and see all the racist remarks, it show's the hatred that is still there and how we look at color and not the soul. Put yourself in any immigrants shoes that comes from a poor country , would you do whatever it takes to have a better life for your family ?to be able to feed them and get medicine for them? shelter them? you could say you would do it the legal way but until you are in a situation where you really need these things also you too would do whatever it takes....The world was given to all of us and that's what no one understand's.

• December 13, 2006

  8:00 AM

  J writes:

  It is very dissapointing to read all the comments and see all the racist remarks, it show's the hatred that is still there and how we look at color and not the soul. Put yourself in any immigrants shoes that comes from a poor country , would you do whatever it takes to have a better life for your family ?to be able to feed them and get medicine for them? shelter them? you could say you would do it the legal way but until you are in a situation where you really need these things also you too would do whatever it takes....The world was given to all of us and that's what no one understand's.

• December 13, 2006

  8:13 AM

  Marin Luther writes:

  Sympathy and apathy is what got the USA into this illegal alien crisis. As for the breaking up families part, they have a safety valve, it's called Mexico and it isn't far away. The Catholic church has definitely turned it's back on me, my family, my people and my country. , now we turn away from the church. Catholicism is a form of government not a spiritual endeavour, and must be treated as such. Tear down the Vatican's Berlin Wall too, hypocrites.

• December 13, 2006

  8:14 AM

  whiteywhite writes:

  They BREAK the LAW to enter this nation, then cry RACIST when they are finally caught.

  When will we realise that our kindness ans laws are being used AGAINST us?

  These people hate our culture and language, why should we even care what happens to them?

  Only IDIOTS help those who would destroy them. http://www.aztlan.net

• December 13, 2006

  8:19 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Everytime these type of ICE raids happen, I wonder if this was the way the Jews were rounded up in Nazi Germany. We are creating a country of intimidation and hatred, reminicient of the ugliness of history where presecution was the norm. Colorado and Federal govenment have lost there sense of fair justice and morality. You let the"illegal immigrant" work here, as long as it is economically advantageous. All of a sudden 9/11 happens, and every one is considered a terrorist. Then we have one white bigot get on his pulpit, to use illegal immigration as a ploy to discriminate. These hard working people are only here to supplement work that our lazy society does not want to do, now you choose turn them away. God Bless America, people, don't you have any sense of decency. The U.S is becoming a Nazi Society using Democracy as a cover. Oh by the way , today I read article that the Army and Marines need additional man power. Why don't we send all the ICE personnel to Iraq, they are good a breaking down doors and creating mayhem.

• December 13, 2006

  8:19 AM

  Michael writes:

  Hey J,

  Mexicans an/or Hispanics are not a race. They are an ethnic group. Your use of the term "racist" is as ignorant and misguided as the rest of your post. Please explain to me, and the other 90% of the people here, why the USA does not have the same sovereign rights of every other nation to keep our borders enforced and allow in who we choose to and deport those who enter illegally?

• December 13, 2006

  8:19 AM

  One happy citizen writes:

  It is quite dumbfounding to me and to all U.S. citizens when people like Sylvia Martinez vocalize that they demand answers to why ICE is doing its job. Well here is your answers Sylvia...these people broke two laws; they came here illegally and then stole someone's identity to stay! You and people like you are ignorant!

• December 13, 2006

  8:24 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  I cant believe more people dont have a problem with the 13 yr old girl on the news crying that her adult boyfriend working at the plant is getting deported. A 13yr old girl with a adult!!! They dont have culture, they have mental disorders. Adios and get the hell out

• December 13, 2006

  8:25 AM

  K writes:

  People are mourning because their parents and spouses are taken away just before Christmas. Yet others are rejoicing because people who entered this country illegally and then committed a further crime by stealing their identity (and thereby causing them additional anguish in the form of destruction of credit and tax liabilities) have been caught.

  Who are you feeling sorry for? The criminals or the victims? This isn't about race - it's about crime. Stop whining. You want to be here, do it legally.

• December 13, 2006

  8:26 AM

  Omar Kuffar writes:

  You infidels must bow to Mohammed now or die!
  allaha akabar
  allaha akabar

• December 13, 2006

  8:30 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  How does that May 1 protest look now? Have another one so we can bring the buses and load the illegals all up, make it too easy.

• December 13, 2006

  8:36 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  First of all if you don't like all the Mexicans who live here go back to Europe. This is occupied Mexico. Don't forget that this great nation you have come to love pretains to others. Those others are US. Mexicans that's right!!! Secondly we are sick of your hatred. Who do you think you are and why do you think you are so righteous? Your race righteousness is filthy rags. You brought the diseases from Europe. You all are a bunch of land grabbers. Next this is no Godly nation. This nation will crumble from within because you will bring it about. You will destroy it. Everything you touch turns to poision. Your greed and hate have turned a race of people to commit illegal transactions in their own land because you occupy everything. You won't stop until you think we are all gone, but you'll never rid yourself of us. Our blood cries out from this bronze land. You and your forefathers have blood on your hands, and you will pay some fine day. Finally this is why you are hated world wide and this is why destruction will come on to you. You will not leave this life without paying for all the destruction your White race has brought about. Today you laugh at our misfortune...tomorrow we will rejoice in your alienation from humanity...We are not beasts and we do intend to be treated as such. Enjoy yourself, poke fun at our misfortune, and gloat over all that your great nation has to offer you. My hope is to one day stand over you in judgement for all your evil ways. You'll say I'm crazy...You'll say I'm a Felon, this doesn't matter because He who promised is just and righteous. So, all you swines waddle in your happiness for a moment because your own demise is near.

• December 13, 2006

  8:40 AM

  joe servo writes:

  This paper is a liberal rag. Around the country people are hailing this as a victory for Americans, but the RMN paints this as a sad day for children. Boycott this stupid paper!

• December 13, 2006

  8:43 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  8:36- You are a racist yourself. Your evil karma is going to kick you in your own ass. Choke on your burrito.

• December 13, 2006

  8:46 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  8:36 is why we need to round them all up and send them back to Mexico. I am sooooo scared of your blather.

• December 13, 2006

  8:49 AM

  jimmie writes:

  well once again our state congressanimals have proven they do not know the constitution of the united states or colorado. that all people in this country are to be treated as citizens untill proven otherwise in a court of law.

  they are also dangerous legislative insane idiots, by suggesting that the swift company officials be charged. even though the allegation is that these people were supplied with alleged valid id's through alleged id theft. don't your legislators of colorado have any real brains, or patriotism. and have no respect for the constitutions of colorado and the united states of america?

  so go ahead and cheat your neighbors go ahead and rob your citizens. do this in the name of your own legal hell and nightmare in hell, in your occult minestries without G-D. with self vain justification against G-D in the end.

  do you understand why this problem is happening in your occult religions against G-D in this has been a nation with G-D. do you realy understand why TheFather WHO sent me, is having your borders without G-D invaded?

  there is a reasoning for every thing, from G-D. TheG-D of this second comming of Adam that you have all rejeted and turned your backs on. so that now it is your evil against the world evil. shalomcha vshalomech???,?...

• December 13, 2006

  8:50 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  8:36 only furthers my point that its not culture, its mental illness. And this land doesnt belong to mexicans or the indians, you all crossed the bering straight and killed the originals off so no one knows who was here first. If you people were so great, mexico wouldnt be such a disaster, and you actually think the americans want you to this country into your homeland? Yeah great, a land of kids having babies by murdeous drunk mexican adult males sounds great to me! Were do I sign up........

• December 13, 2006

  8:51 AM

  fiesty writes:

  J- yes, we are human too. But please address my 707 post- does their plight/situation justify any action, to include their injury to others?

  0819- First, same question as J. Second, your argument about decency is also nullified in the earlier post. Lastly, how can you argue that this is the same as Nazis? You are a prime example of emotional manipulation- trying to equate law enforcement as "terror tactics".

  0836- For someone who follows "he who is righteous and just", you are not exactly showing love. You are being more racist than anyone here, and accusing others of being racist without basis. You bringing up ancient history that's no longer relevant, and not addressing any arguments nor discussing the issue. Are you actually interested in discussing this, or are you just going to rant nonsense?

• December 13, 2006

  8:51 AM

  Legal Citizen writes:

  So when is ICE going to raid "Mc D's"

• December 13, 2006

  8:52 AM

  Maria writes:

  Finally!! It's so wonderful to finally see something being done about this problem of these people here illegally stealing other people's identities, and getting away with it. But this is just a start. Hope these raids continue! I too would like to see the News actually do a story on the real victims, those whose identities were stolen and whose live were turned upside down because of these thieves.

• December 13, 2006

  8:54 AM

  Michael writes:

  What type of "tweested" "Mexican Logic" does it take to arrive at the conclusion that they are NOT connected to the white race and Europeans who came to North America 500 years ago??? Mexicans speak SPANISH for a reason, as does most of LATIN America.
  NEWSFLASH to all Mexicans!!!!!
  You are all descendants of the Spanish Conquistadors and those who followed Cortez in his military conquest of South America, Central America, and much of North America. You are NOT an indiginous American people. You are of mostly European and some native American ancestry. Get a grip.

• December 13, 2006

  8:55 AM

  fiesty writes:

  For all those posting racist, childish comments, please knock it off! Stereotypical comments about eating burritos or breeding children are inappropriate. Illegal immigration is, regardless of ethnicity. Some of us might like to actually discuss the issue. Not of all want to be tarred with same brush.

• December 13, 2006

  8:57 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Jimmie, calm down and take your meds. First, you can type in God and lightning will not strike.
  Second, that the hell are talking about? The second coming of Adam? What cult are you in?

• December 13, 2006

  9:01 AM

  Montezuma writes:

  The Chicano revisionist history myth. A portion of the USA was "taken" from Mexico. Mexico was paid, or debts were relieved by the USA according to the Treaties of Guadalupe Hidalgo and then the Gadsden Purchase in the Mid 1800's. Mexico never really controlled any land,(they can't even run their country well in the 21st century) but laid claim by default of Spain. The American Indian would also dispute Mexico's claim about past "ownership" of any land within the continental USA. When Mexico lost in the US-Mexican War and subseqently sold lands to U.S.A., there were about 14,000 total Mexican citizens in Ca.,
  NM, TX. Az. etc.,some being Anglo. Azátlan does exist, it is south of the borders of the USA.

• December 13, 2006

  9:03 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  fiesty, it wasn't eating burritos, it was choking on one. That, my fellow poster, is sarcasm not racism.

• December 13, 2006

  9:03 AM

  meforpeace writes:

  Since all the families are standing by PROTESTING, why not bring another bus and give them a ride"BACK TO THEIR OWN HOME", then they would be together !!

• December 13, 2006

  9:04 AM

  blackhawk writes:

  Ask these lawbreakers how they would be treated in Mexico if caught stealing identies and sneaking into the country.

  Let some of these liberals try sneaking into Mexico and going to work with false ID.

• December 13, 2006

  9:08 AM

  chuck writes:

  Don't do the time if you can't do the time.

• December 13, 2006

  9:15 AM

  Michael writes:

  This country is heading for ethnic riots and strife that will make the race riots of the 60s seem tame. Misguided public policy, our welfare state, budget deficits, massive underfunding of SS, Medicare, and Medicaid, a failed 3rd world country on our southern border who chooses to export their problems to the USA rather than fix them, illegal immigrants who feel "entitled" to be in the USA and have the same "rights" as US citizens, and two political parties who have failed us on the issue of illegal immigration for over 30 years have led us to this point.

• December 13, 2006

  9:34 AM

  JC writes:

  The people caught in these raids are not victims and they need to quit whining and quit saying that enforcing the laws of this country is racism. They only say that to cloud the issue and to get people to feel sorry for them. They are criminals who have stolen people's identities for their own financial gain. They have only themselves to blame for having to suffer the consequences of their illegal actions.

• December 13, 2006

  9:37 AM

  Bout Time writes:

  Bout time.
  To all the liberal idiots that have claimed illegal immigration is a victimless crime that benefits all Americans, step up and explain your moronic viewpoints to the victims of identity theft.
  See how far you get.

• December 13, 2006

  9:40 AM

  David Hakala writes:

  Wow, so this is where all the unAmerican neo-Nazis hang out.

• December 13, 2006

  9:43 AM

  Margaret writes:

  I am very sad that this city has so much hate in their hearts. Because we do not have green/blue eyes and white skin? This is racism! I don't see or hear the ICE invading the Asian community, which has illegal aliens as well....or the Russian, Ethopian...etc. If you want to use the excuse of "legality" then be fair with the other ethnicities not just the Hispanic community! Shame on all of you!

• December 13, 2006

  9:43 AM

  Margaret writes:

  I am very sad that this city has so much hate in their hearts. Because we do not have green/blue eyes and white skin? This is racism! I don't see or hear the ICE invading the Asian community, which has illegal aliens as well....or the Russian, Ethopian...etc. If you want to use the excuse of "legality" then be fair with the other ethnicities not just the Hispanic community! Shame on all of you!

• December 13, 2006

  9:43 AM

  gr8fuldude writes:

  I guess "si se puede" find yourself on a bus outta town...

• December 13, 2006

  9:44 AM

  Margaret writes:

  I am very sad that this city has so much hate in their hearts. Because we do not have green/blue eyes and white skin? This is racism! I don't see or hear the ICE invading the Asian community, which has illegal aliens as well....or the Russian, Ethopian...etc. If you want to use the excuse of "legality" then be fair with the other ethnicities not just the Hispanic community! Shame on all of you!

• December 13, 2006

  9:45 AM

  E writes:

  Illegal is Illegal. It’s about time someone started to enforce the laws of this country.

• December 13, 2006

  9:46 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Shame on YOU Margaret for supporting these LAW BREAKERS! Stealing someone's identity is a felony! These people must be deported.

  I don't care if they're Mexican, Vietnamese, British or Canadian...you come to this country illegally and then steal someone's identity, costing them thousands upon thousands of dollars and headaches like you wouldn't believe, GET OUT NOW!!!

  Margaret, take your "boo hoos" somewhere else. We hard-working Americans who abide by the laws of this great country are tired of you cry babies!

• December 13, 2006

  9:48 AM

  Julie Marie writes:

  Uh, Margaret, it's not really up to us who ICE chooses to raid and arrest for their illegal activities. And this article is about IDENTITY THEFT, did you bother to read it? Why do YOU need to make it about race?

• December 13, 2006

  9:52 AM

  JW writes:

  "Wow, so this is where all the unAmerican neo-Nazis hang out."

  Yes, if they arent hating Mexicans, its Liberals.

  You people hailing this as a "Victory" are stupid. This does nothing to diminish the demand for Illegal workers. Policies to do that would be A) more humane and B) more effective.

  But you idiots arent about solving problems. You like punnishing people, even if they are just a drop in the bucket. Its shallow, and mean, and it sux.

  The ones that commited Identity theft are another story. That cant be tollerated. Of course, its not just immigrants that commit identity theft either, but I dont hear any of you mentioning that. The majority of identity theft is perpetrated in order to steal, not get a job.

• December 13, 2006

  9:55 AM

  Sad but True writes:

  The stealing of identities is only a symptom of a much larger problem. Let's be honest. Corporations and business owners who employ illegals do so to make more profit for themselves. NOT to reward the workers with better pay, work environment or benefits. The illegals are equally to blame. Without regard to our laws, culture or social well being they sneak in and proceed, intentionally or not, to tax our educational, social, healthcare, law enforcement and entitlement systems. While their employers wreap the majority of the benefit, the middle-class foot the bill. The limited cost savings we see as a result cannot make up for the increase in many other costs that more than offset any benefits. There is no easy solution, but until we can consistently enforce our immigration laws against both illegal and employer, we will never get anywhere and the problem will continue to race towards what will certainly be a very ugly endpoint.

• December 13, 2006

  9:57 AM

  jj writes:

  In the future, our illegal friends will not be deported. Gov. Ritter will just charge them with criminal trespass on agriculture land! A packing plant is an agricultural business.

• December 13, 2006

  10:03 AM

  NO AMNESTY!!!!!! writes:

  KUDOS TO ICE!!!!! YEA!!! Finally my hard earned tax dollar is being used to enforce the law!!!!!!!

• December 13, 2006

  10:03 AM

  David Hakala writes:

  " this article is about IDENTITY THEFT"

  No, it isn't.

  "Agents said workers were being arrested on immigration charges and, in some cases, on criminal warrants."

  Clearly, the agents' primary objective was immigration. If this was all about ID theft, then it would a simple matter to pick up only the people whose Swift records matched stolen IDs. It could have been done without raiding and shutting down six plants.

  "Evidence uncovered during the investigation indicates that large numbers of illegal aliens may have illegally assumed the identities of U.S. citizens to gain employment at Swift facilities," said an ICE spokeswoman in Iowa.

  "Evidence" also "indicated" that Iraq "may have" developed "large numbers" of WMDs. Identity theft is being used as the new bogeyman to make the general population so fearful that it will surrender even more of its liberty.

  The most important evidence will come later, when we learn how many detainees did not deserve to be detained.

• December 13, 2006

  10:11 AM

  John Lennon writes:

  Imagine there's no Heaven
  It's easy if you try
  No hell below us
  Above us only sky
  Imagine all the people
  Living for today

  Imagine there's no countries
  It isn't hard to do
  Nothing to kill or die for
  And no religion too
  Imagine all the people
  Living life in peace

  You may say that I'm a dreamer
  But I'm not the only one
  I hope someday you'll join us
  And the world will be as one

  Imagine no possessions
  I wonder if you can
  No need for greed or hunger
  A brotherhood of man
  Imagine all the people
  Sharing all the world

  You may say that I'm a dreamer
  But I'm not the only one
  I hope someday you'll join us
  And the world will live as one

  
  

• December 13, 2006

  10:11 AM

  JW writes:

  Sad but true's post is atleast intelligent, but I think you are still missing somethings...

  "The stealing of identities is only a symptom of a much larger problem."

  True enough.

  " Let's be honest. Corporations and business owners who employ illegals do so to make more profit for themselves. NOT to reward the workers with better pay, work environment or benefits."

  Also true enough. This is where the demand for illegals comes from, and its why your last statement is totally wrong.

  " The illegals are equally to blame. Without regard to our laws, culture or social well being they sneak in and proceed, intentionally or not, to tax our educational, social, healthcare, law enforcement and entitlement systems. While their employers wreap the majority of the benefit, the middle-class foot the bill."

  This is also true but....

  "The limited cost savings we see as a result cannot make up for the increase in many other costs that more than offset any benefits. "

  Really? Where did you get your numbers? Or is this just what you believe, without having any kind of actual knowledge? Im not saying you are wrong, Im saying you have no idea if this is right and are posting it as fact anyway.

  "There is no easy solution, but until we can consistently enforce our immigration laws against both illegal and employer, we will never get anywhere and the problem will continue to race towards what will certainly be a very ugly endpoint."

  And again, this is totally wrong. This is the same stance we have taken in the drug war, and its done nothing but cost money. We need to focus on getting rid of demand. Then the problem actually will go away. If we just focus on penalties, and leave the demand, corporations and people will continue to use illegals for their cheap labor, in the hopes that they get away with it, just like with drugs.

• December 13, 2006

  10:12 AM

  Jim writes:

  http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/illegal
  il·le·gal /ɪˈligəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-lee-guhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
  –adjective
  1. forbidden by law or statute.
  2. contrary to or forbidden by official rules, regulations, etc.: The referee ruled that it was an illegal forward pass.
  –noun
  3. Informal. illegal alien.
  [Origin: 1620–30;

  —Related forms
  il·le·gal·ly, adverb

  —Synonyms 1. unlawful; illegitimate; illicit; unlicensed. Illegal, unlawful, illegitimate, illicit, criminal can all describe actions not in accord with law. Illegal refers most specifically to violations of statutes or, in organized athletics, codified rules: an illegal seizure of property; an illegal block (in football). Unlawful means not sanctioned by or according to law: an unlawful claim to the inheritance; to take unlawful advantage of the trading situation. Illegitimate means lacking legal or traditional right or rights: an illegitimate child; illegitimate use of privileged knowledge. Illicit, which originally meant simply “not permitted,” now most often applies to matters regulated by law with specific emphasis on the way things are carried out: illicit conversion of property; an illicit attempt to control the market. Criminal most often refers to violation of the statutes of penal as opposed to civil law. All felonies are criminal as are all crimes sometimes punishable by death such as murder, arson, and kidnapping: a criminal act.

  The actions by ICE are long overdue. This is not a racism issue, so please all of you stop whining about Race. This is an issue of LAW, the criminal activity of which deserves punishment.
  If these people (regardless of race) want to come here to America to live & work & raise their families, then please do it through the legal channels & process.
  I believe that SWIFT should be fined per illegal employee and that also more of such raids should be performed on a daily basis throughout our country. I also believe that the American Government shall install a system where the American Citizens can file reports on suspected illegals. Whether this be calling in a license plate number, or merely a residence address of suspected illegals. We as American citizens can take back our country and facilitate the removal of lawbreakers, without Racism of any kind.
  The time has come for WE Americans to put a stop to this illegal invasion.

• December 13, 2006

  10:19 AM

  Ramracing writes:

  Felony is a Felony. One who uses false identity for gainful employment and takes services from those who need it by using false identity. They need to be punished to the full extent of the law and after serving their time deported. Its time AMERICANS stand up and make the government protect those rights given to us. NOT have them used and abused by illegals. If you want to live in this country then go through the step to become legal. And learn to speak the langauage !!!!!

• December 13, 2006

  10:20 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  JW, why don't you just blame this on Dubya like all the other problems in the world.

• December 13, 2006

  10:25 AM

  JW writes:

  "JW, why don't you just blame this on Dubya like all the other problems in the world. "

  Funny thing, as stupid as I think W is, he is the only one Ive heard with a plan that makes anykind of sense on this issue.

• December 13, 2006

  10:26 AM

  Margaret writes:

  How about the Human Rights for any individual? You talk about these people as if they are not human....more like cattle that you can move in and move out. Stop and listen to the hatred you are spreading. Do you talk like this in front of your children about other ethnicities? What are you breading hatred? I am an American citizen, but WE do not agree with hatred and racism.....

• December 13, 2006

  10:28 AM

  Tom writes:

  The law is the law. They knew they were breaking the law sneaking into our country and getting fake documents.

  Americans's can't afford health care and the protestors want want the illegals to have verything when some Americans have nothing.

  The illegals shouldn't have brought their families here either, they knew the risks in doing so.

  It sucks, but too bad...follow the law or stay in Mexico.

• December 13, 2006

  10:31 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Margaret, why is enforcing our existing laws "hatred and racism".? Some of the comments on this entry are but the actions taken by ICE are not.
  

• December 13, 2006

  10:35 AM

  Wayne writes:

  My fiancee lives in Asia, and we are trying to get her here. It is NOT as easy as just getting married, then she gets her green card. We are having to document our relationship in ALL ways, we both have hired attorneys, we are learning each others' customs and languages, and are spending a fortune to do this.

  We are doing this through legal channels. It will take time, but we are fortunate to have the time and money and committment to each other to see this through.

  I have NO sympathy for anyone playing this as a racist incident. If they want to come here so badly, do it legally.

• December 13, 2006

  10:37 AM

  Castlerock writes:

  I am a liberal and I say HOORAY FOR ICE! Let's see more of it!! Ship them back and let them take their anchor babies with them.
  Hilareous that someone on here is screaming racism to people who share my views, when...if you look at the warrants, most of the victims were Mexican Americans. Let's ask THEM if deporting these felons is racism?
  We are ANTI FELON not anti mexican. Grow up and get out.

• December 13, 2006

  10:39 AM

  Margaret writes:

  My heart hurts for all these families and specially the children. They are suffering and all we can comment is on the racial aspect. I do not agree with the way the ICE is targeting the Hispanic community....again, why don't they target other ethnicities if this is not about race? Why are we fighting in Iraq...for Human rights....but here in our country we behave this way? Sorry but I do not agree with hate

• December 13, 2006

  10:41 AM

  La Virgen de Guadalupe writes:

  Here's my take on racism and this issue: If you are brown and condone these types of behaviors since most of these offenders are brown, YOU are racist and disrespectful to other ethnic groups and cultures who follow the law.

• December 13, 2006

  10:42 AM

  David Hakala writes:

  So, when will we see reports of long lines at Swift's Greeley employment office? Any of you patriotic Americans driving your kids up there? :-)

  A little more evidence that "indicates" these raids "may have" little to do with ID theft:

  http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/10523648/detail.html

  "At least 1,282 workers were arrested at Swift packing plants in six states. So far, only 65 were being charged with identity theft, federal officials said."

  "At least 800 workers at the Greeley plant were identified as illegal immigrants; 300 of them will be deported within the week, said Weld County District Attorney Ken Buck."

  "Immigration authorities came to me and asked me if I would help them receive arrest warrants for 25 individuals at the Swift plant here in Greeley, and they would execute those warrants. So we went to the courts late (Monday) and received those warrants for identity theft," Buck said.

• December 13, 2006

  10:43 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  These families are suffering because of their own actions. It's called consequences. They need to take responsibility and quit crying racism, which it is not. It's their own fault. They brought it on themselves. Do you feel sorry for all criminals who have a hard luck story? I doubt it. Who's the racist? Maybe you.

• December 13, 2006

  10:46 AM

  Renee writes:

  It's about time! I don't feel sorry for them. Think about the stress and trouble they caused for all the people who's social security numbers they used illegally.

  Now where's the arrest of the Executives at Swift that hired them all?????

  They should be next and then let's file a suit against the union. Shouldn't they make sure their members are LEGAL??

  I'm tired of subsidizing all these company's cheap labor.

• December 13, 2006

  10:51 AM

  Brant writes:

  I suppose we should allow murderers and rapists an opportunity to pick up their kids from school, arrange their affairs before they are arrested and taken into custody? Illegal is illegal, and the law should be enforced. Having been a victim of identity theft and being forced to explain my innocence to the IRS for taxes they thought I owed for income somebody else claimed against my SSN, I have no sympathy for those that were detained yesterday. They knew that this day could come, and still they involved their families in their illegal activities.

• December 13, 2006

  10:52 AM

  M.H. writes:

  Brilliant!
  It would be nice to see a illegal free state. If we can't
  keep them out than let's make it more unpleasant than Mexico.Any one of our states correctional facilities will do.Instead of spending American dollars so that these people can live in Highlands Ranch and drive Escalades and sell drugs and make gang bangers I mean babies. Let spend the money prosecuting them. If that's where my tax dollars are going then fine by me. What a bunch of cry babies in this forum. My eyes aren't blue and that's why. You are such a victim. I don't know why the Chicano has to weigh in on this issue because the majority of Mexicans from Mexico I know can't stand the "American Chicano because they are lazy. So shoosh. But I do agree lets treat the other's fairly. Ok by me to invade every nail salon in the state and every 7-11 and gas station. By all means lets do it.

• December 13, 2006

  10:57 AM

  Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

  No one wants to see families suffer for the crimes that parents commit. There are plenty of American citizens, whose families have been torn apart for the crimes they have committed. The saying is "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime." And that goes for the managers at swift, those who were forging or passing on stolen IDs and those who entered the country illegally.

  My congratulations to gwats on December 13, 2006 05:07 AM for waiting for the paperwork to get his bride into the country legally.

  The USA welcomes all those who would respect our laws and enter legally.

• December 13, 2006

  11:06 AM

  Kevin Jones writes:

  People stop being Catholic because of illegal immigration? That's one of the most superficial excuses I've heard.

  Are illegal aliens sitting in the pews Americans won't sit in?

  The point about enabling lying is a good one, I'll have to press the next prominent person I run into about it.

• December 13, 2006

  11:06 AM

  David Hakala writes:

  Hogar, exactly WHICH Swift managers "were forging or passing on stolen IDs"?

  This page is so mired in ignorant rumors and deliberate lies that it probably violates the Child Internet Protect Act, being "harmful to minors".

• December 13, 2006

  11:09 AM

  Horace Mann writes:

  The attitudes of the bleeding hearts is overdue evidence that we should ditch diversity and multicultural indoctrination in all public institutions and replace them with lessons in civics.

• December 13, 2006

  11:10 AM

  Joe Smith writes:

  Illegal immigrants having been breaking the law so long they think its legal, crossing the border illegally is a crime, using other people's ID to obtain work and buy houses is illegal, Any questions?

• December 13, 2006

  11:14 AM

  JW writes:

  "The attitudes of the bleeding hearts is overdue evidence that we should ditch diversity and multicultural indoctrination in all public institutions and replace them with lessons in civics. "

  You do that. My kids will get good jobs while yours serve them meals. Globalism isnt going to stop just because you are afraid of other cultures. Our diversity and multi-cultural knowledge is probably our best remaining competitive edge.

• December 13, 2006

  11:14 AM

  Gimme, Gimme writes:

  Joe Smith, that is too much common sense for it to sink in to some of these folk. Don't we owe them entitlements for something? Can't we give away some government money? After all, it isn't real money, it's govnmint money.

• December 13, 2006

  11:17 AM

  CPA writes:

  Hakala misses yet another point in asking Hogar exactly WHICH Swift managers "were forging or passing on stolen IDs"?

  Due to the passage of Sarbanes Oxley accounting reform, senior executives are now required to personally attest to the validity of financial statements. This means that if wages are paid to an illegal, and the company executives knew they were working illegally, then they have effectively committed perjury.

• December 13, 2006

  11:22 AM

  Jay-Duh writes:

  "You do that. My kids will get good jobs while yours serve them meals. Globalism isnt going to stop just because you are afraid of other cultures."

  The perennial liberal idiot JW still doesn't "get it" about illegal immigration. Still trying to blur the lines between legal and illegal and shut off dissent by implying racism or some other slur against those of us with common sense.

  No hope for the genetically impaired.

• December 13, 2006

  11:23 AM

  star writes:

  I think the illegals have the right idea, let's all just obey the laws we feel like obeying. Wouldn't that make for a wonderful world.

• December 13, 2006

  11:24 AM

  M.H. writes:

  Cinco de Mayo:
  An excellent day for a raid. Just position the ICE on Federal and 38th. North Denver used to be a nice town.

• December 13, 2006

  11:25 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  JW, why would you think this is about culture or diversity? This is about our borders being over run. Our country has the most diversity in the whole world, we have people from every country applying {legally} to come here.

• December 13, 2006

  11:30 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  "You people hailing this as a "Victory" are stupid. This does nothing to diminish the demand for Illegal workers"

  Oh yea JW? You think public raids like this have no effect on demand? You are the idiot to think Swift is going to rehire illegals after this national exposure. You still are criticizing the enforcement of immigration laws and offering zippo as far as a solution, besides amnesty. Being in the minority sucks don't it?

• December 13, 2006

  11:36 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  JW is the resident 'genius' here on this blog that throws out insults and claims superior intellect. Ignore him and he will go away.

• December 13, 2006

  11:43 AM

  Cheryl writes:

  I understand that there were several immigrants taken back to their countries. I feel sorry for the the Americans that were also taken into custody. What about the children left without no parents. (whom are Americans) Lets all stop criticizing everyone for whom is right and whom is wrong, who is here legally or illegally. Lets stop all of the hatred amongst each other and pray for these poor children. Black, white, Hispanic it doesn't matter we are all gods creations we should love each other and stop criticizing and killing each other.
  

• December 13, 2006

  11:50 AM

  Laurel writes:

  My husband and I recently went to Mexico for our honeymoon. The checkpoints, id checks and luggage searches were exhaustive. If someone tried to enter Mexico illegally (why anyone would want to?) they would get to see the inside of a Mexican jail cell. My aunt lived in Mexico legally for years. She obeyed the laws.
  No matter what country someone comes from they need to respect the laws of this land. Don't try to make our cities look like cities in your home country, if they were so great why did you leave? To "demand" any rights, to expect any privileges, to steal citizen's identities and siphon off entitlements is wrong. Diversity divides, assimilation joins together. Join us legally, earn your citizenship, pay your fair share of taxes, respect our flag, learn our language and be a contributing member of our society and you would be most welcome; regardless of creed, race, religion, ethnicity, etc... If not, go home and take up arms and make your country more like ours.

• December 13, 2006

  11:51 AM

  so sad writes:

  Only 60 some were caught for identity theft the rest were'nt, Most of you people out there are hateful for the comments that you are making yes if you broke the law you must face the consiquinces but you are making remarks to also mexican americans that what is going to start alot of trouble.

• December 13, 2006

  11:51 AM

  M.H. writes:

  ICE. Don't forget the meat plant in
  Fort Morgan Colorado. I am sure
  you will be doing the citizens there a great service not to mention lowering the crime rate.

• December 13, 2006

  11:52 AM

  JW writes:

  "JW, why would you think this is about culture or diversity?"

  This kind of thing is why I so often sound superior to you idiots. If you had read the post I was responding to, this question wouldnt need to be asked.
  And guess what, I even included it in MY post so you would know what to associate it with. Complete obliviot.

  "You think public raids like this have no effect on demand?"

  That is EXACTLY what I think. The damand for cheap labor is still there. Its just like drugs. Raid all the crack houses you want, the demand for the drug is still there, so the drug is...still there!

  "You are the idiot to think Swift is going to rehire illegals after this national exposure. "

  The demand is still there because illegals are still cheaper to hire. Penalties do have a limited affect, but they dont get rid of the problem. You are right that Swift probably wont "Knowingly" hire anymore illegals, but someone else will because...its still cheaper and the DEMAND IS STILL THERE. Again, look at the drug war for a nice example.

  "You still are criticizing the enforcement of immigration laws and offering zippo as far as a solution, besides amnesty."

  Ive proposed solutions other than amnesty.

  "Being in the minority sucks don't it?"

  Depends. In this case, no, because the majority are a bunch of kneejerk freaks who are using their emotions on this issue. Emotions do not make for intelligent decisions. I consistantly see a bunch of "experts" on this blog screaming about how bad Illegals are for the economy. Yet all the research I do provides me with ACTUAL experts who say we simply dont have enough info to make rational decisions on this issue.

  Hmmm. I suppose I should just buy what you people are screaming instead.

• December 13, 2006

  11:52 AM

  Tax payer writes:

  Cheryl,

  Please stay in Boulder. Send the illeagals back to whever, they are a drain on society and I would rather mow my own lawn.

• December 13, 2006

  11:53 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Cheryl you're right. Illegal aliens should stop driving drunk and killing American citizens.

• December 13, 2006

  11:53 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  HOW SAD!!!!!!! FOR BOTH SIDES! SO MUCH HATE, SO MUCH FUSTRATION; AMERICANS BLAMING ILLEGALS FOR THERE LACK OF WORK ETHICS AND ILLEGALS BLAMING AMERICAN CITIZENS FOR THERE SITUATION. THE LAST TIME I CHECKED PAY, EVEN FOR AMERICANS TO WORK IN THESE POSITIONS, THEY WERE PAYING THE SAME AS FOR AN ILLEGAL WORKER.
  I THINK THE WHOLE EXCUSE OF BUSINESSES NOT GIVING US HIGHER WAGES (YES US, I AM AMERICAN) BECAUSE THE ILLEGALS WILL DO IT FOR LESS IS JUST AN EXCUSE FOR THOSE OF US WHO CHOOSE NOT TO WORK BUT ARE TOO EMBARASSED TO ADMIT IT. AT THE SAME TIME THE ILLEGALS THAT COME AND DO NOT HAVE GOOD VALUES AND COMMIT CRIMES ARE JUST THAT, ILLEGAL. WE ARE ALL THE SAME! THERE ARE A NUMBER OF CHILD MOLESTATION CASES, DRUNK DRIVER CASES, IDENTITY THEFTS,AND CRIME IN GENERAL IN THIS COUNTRY, IN EVERY ETHNIC GROUP BY ILLEGALS OR NOT, THIS IS NOT AN EXCUSE. NOR SHOULD IT BE GROUNDS TO PERSUE AND SEEK OUT ONE RACE VERSES ANOTHER. BY THAT I MEAN STEREO TYPING. EXCUSE ME WHILE I POINT OUT COMMON STEREO TYPES; TYPICALLY MEXICANS WORK IN FACTORIES, RESTURAUNTS, LANDSCAPING, FIELDS AND CONSTRUCTION. (WHICH SEEMS TO BE ICE PRIME TARGETS) ASIANS IN ASIAN MARKETS, FLEA MARKETS, NAIL SHOPS AND SEAFOOD STORES. AFRICANS, AS CAB DRIVERS AND COVENIENT STORES. WHY HAVE WE NOT SEEN ANY OF THE PLACES THAT OTHER ETHNIC GROUPS OF ILLEGALS MIGHT CHOOSE FOR EMPLOYMENT. MEXICAN PEOPLE ARE NOT THE ONLY ETHNIC GROUP USING FAKE IDS AND COMMITING CRIMES IN OUR COMMUNITY. PERHAPS IF THE RAIDS DID NOT SEEM TO FOCAS ON ONLY ONE COMMON AREA, THOSE THAT ARE OFFENDED AND ASSUMING RACISM WOULD NOT. AND THOSE THAT WANT IMMIGRATION LAWS UPHELD WUOLD ALSO STILL HAVE THERE TERMS MET.

• December 13, 2006

  11:56 AM

  Pat writes:

  A small start. One raid down, 800,000 (or so) to go.

  While we're at it, arrest the owners of the company also. Seize their assets, and give them 10-20 years in prison.
  

• December 13, 2006

  11:58 AM

  Jay-Duh writes:

  "You like punnishing people, even if they are just a drop in the bucket. Its shallow, and mean, and it sux"

  I just thank my lucky stars that morons like JW aren't part of our law enforcement community. I have to laugh when I think of how shallow and mean it is to punish lawbreakers who ruin the lives of so many Americans.

  I'm taking up a collection to send JW to Latin America so that he can commune with the folks he so identifies with. Anyone interested in contributing?

• December 13, 2006

  12:02 PM

  so sad writes:

  MH you are a racist I suppose you are a white natzi

• December 13, 2006

  12:03 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "That is EXACTLY what I think. The damand for cheap labor is still there. Its just like drugs. Raid all the crack houses you want, the demand for the drug is still there, so the drug is...still there"

  This is exactly why trying to argue with a moron yields no return. For anyone to equate an established multistate business with a fly-by night drug selling location with no network or ties the the next drug selling location deserves to be called any number of names because that kind of dumb is offensive.

• December 13, 2006

  12:08 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  I'm glad for the raid, send the illegals home. I would just like to see Swift get their share of fines, penalties, jail time, etc., but I'm sure all records and employees with "knowledge" were purged last month when the plans for the raid started. Maybe next time, don't give any warning to the company being raided and make all employee hiring records part of the warrant.

• December 13, 2006

  12:09 PM

  Get Real writes:

  It is a false arguement to say that America is responsible for the anchor children born here as the result of illegal immigration. The parents are still and always will be responsible for their children, and as foreign nationals here illegally it is the responsibility of those nations to provide for the children if their parents cannot. When these children are of legal age, they can exercise their citizenship rights and vote here, but until then all the cries about what to do about the children is nothing more than an orchestrated ploy to futher the selfish agendas of illegal immigrants.

• December 13, 2006

  12:10 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "JW, why would you think this is about culture or diversity?"
  My bad, I should have said it more clearly- JW, why are you a moron and brain dead? This isn't about culture or diversity but you are too dimwitted to understand that. This isn't about how many burrito stands on construction site, this is about legal immigration. Any nittwit with half a brain of which you don't qualify for, can see that there is a problem with our borders.
  Feed the trolls, feed JW

  
  

• December 13, 2006

  12:11 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Jay-Duh,
  I'll gladly contribute $10, but only if his citizenship is revoked too!

• December 13, 2006

  12:12 PM

  fiesty writes:

  Margaret,
  As 10:43 has pointed out, these families are suffering as a result of their own deliberate actions. This issue isn't about spreading hate, it's about enforcing the law. If a drunk driver hits someone (whether fatally or not), should we not enforce the law through the justice system just because he has a family to support? To use your argument, think of his poor children. Well? What makes the illegal immigration issue any different?

• December 13, 2006

  12:15 PM

  W writes:

  whats all the fuss about?
  in texas we all speak spanish and eat messkin food.

  We will all be part hispanic soon.
  and its good for business too.

  About the national debt. Lets forget the dollar and start paying em back in Pesos.

• December 13, 2006

  12:19 PM

  Denver Guy writes:

  The anti-mexican comments on this board are mostly racist.

  The Anti-white comments on this board are mostly racist.

  The problem is a set of immigration laws that are so ineffecient that they cannot supply the needed labor for our economy. My guess is that if there was a legal and effecient way for citizens from other countries to enter and work as needed by our economy, they would choose the legal way to do so.

  We must be mindful of the empoyment opportunites of our own citzens first, but make available a safe legal way to offer the surplus labor to others who will fill the jobs.

  The most important aspect of such a policy will be to bring both the supply (laborers) and demand (employers) into compliance and enforce the law. Non-compliance with an effective set of laws should be met with the stiffest of penalties for either side.

  I for one encourage all to join us in the wonderful experiment we call America. I only ask that we all do it legally.

• December 13, 2006

  12:21 PM

  M.H. writes:

  Absolutly PAT!
  The funny part of this whole thing was the march consisting of illegals and legal family members. All that did was help us Americans
  see how many of you are here. One individaul blogs don't start trouble by commenting on the Chicano's.
  My question is how do you think you got here and you're legal status? Some one in you're tree was illegal. Fact is fact you don't need to be insulted by it.

• December 13, 2006

  12:22 PM

  JW writes:

  "This is exactly why trying to argue with a moron yields no return. For anyone to equate an established multistate business with a fly-by night drug selling location with no network or ties the the next drug selling location deserves to be called any number of names because that kind of dumb is offensive."

  I didnt come up with the comparison. Chomsky did, only he used it with the war on drugs and the war on terrorism. Turns out it works with the "War on Illegal Immigration" as well. Its about the failed policy of attacking the supply, which is done in the drug war, the war on terrorism, and now the war on illegals, VS getting rid of demand, which actually works. Call him a liberal all you want, Chomsky is still WAY smarter than you will ever be. Talk all the shit you want, but untill we figure out how to make the economic benefits of hiring illegals go away, people and companies WILL hire them.

  "My bad, I should have said it more clearly- JW, why are you a moron and brain dead? This isn't about culture or diversity but you are too dimwitted to understand that. This isn't about how many burrito stands on construction site, this is about legal immigration. Any nittwit with half a brain of which you don't qualify for, can see that there is a problem with our borders.
  Feed the trolls, feed JW"

  Are you really this stupid? I did not say the following;

  "The attitudes of the bleeding hearts is overdue evidence that we should ditch diversity and multicultural indoctrination in all public institutions and replace them with lessons in civics. "

  My response about multi-culturalism and diversity was in response to this post. I never said the illegal immigration issue was about this. You have NO place calling me stupid when you cant even read! Take a god damn critical thinking class and stfu till you are done!

• December 13, 2006

  12:22 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Okay, sit back and get educated.
  We don't believe in your racist theories. We were here when you got here. We didn't come from anywhere because we were already here when your forefather navigated across the Atlantic. No we did not cross the Bering Strait. This is some more of your white rhetoric to rectify your evil thinking, and to legitimize your backward eurocentric concepts. The historical realities are denied by you so you can justify the occupation of northern Mexico. You're anger and slander of an entire race of people proves that you are afraid of the truth. Your heart embedded in racist sentiments show you are running scared. You talk about law breakers. What are you? You don't abide by any laws either. If you did abide by the laws of the land you would first wait for the evidence of those accused in these cowardly raid. You know that these accusations comes at a time to divert your attention from the war in Iraq. What happened to innocent until proven guity??? You wouldn't rant and rave the way you do at the misfortune of others if you practiced what you preach. The real animals are you who get your thrills at these unfortunate events. Your greed and evil ways will seek you out. p.s Editor are you blocking my views is this not America the Great?

• December 13, 2006

  12:22 PM

  Michael writes:

  Good morning. Just a quick note to say I am surprised but pleased to see ICE investigating identity theft. I retired from Denver Police after 29 years of service and I am a Veteran. ICE looks like an agency that is actually fulfilling their responsibilities.
  Don't talk about parts of Miami until you go to the 5000 block of Federal Blvd on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon. It angers me to see people abuse their freedom that they are actually stealing. Freedom is not free, and at what cost has it come to Federal Blvd. If they want it to look like Mexico-then they should go back.
  
  
  

• December 13, 2006

  12:23 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Thank goodness something has been done.No matter how small or what the reason,there is a beginning.Now I want to see more and more being done by ICE to help with the illegal immigration problem. This is a huge problem and has to be dealt with sooner rather then later.

• December 13, 2006

  12:28 PM

  Frank Livingston writes:

  As a longtime former member of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, I am saddened to know they have long supported a “comprehensive immigration law” that simply will overwhelm our existing USCIS.
  The USCIS is incapable of performing its function now, let alone adding 12-50 million additional illegal aliens to their list. The SMALL BUSINESS chamber members need to stand up to the board and say, NO to this sham. This in no more than eliminating our borders with Canada and Mexico for money. Do your research on the NAFTA Superhighway because this is not a Democrat or Republican issue.

  The chamber and our government cannot make uninformed decisions when it comes to what something will cost. First, we do not know how many illegal aliens are now here thus we cannot determine, financially, what affect it will have on our social security system when you add this number of low paying individuals to this system.

  I challenge the U.S. Chamber of Commerce to show their members and America the facts! They cannot because the numbers are all unknown. Our federal, state and local governments fiscal debt cannot take the added people this quick, it will bankrupt us!

  Do those of us who is against any form of a “comprehensive immigration bill” need to boycott all small local chamber members in an effort to get them too stand-up AND SAY, NO?
  

• December 13, 2006

  12:28 PM

  fiesty writes:

  "I think the illegals have the right idea, let's all just obey the laws we feel like obeying. "

  Star, it's already begun. People across the U.S. are already ignoring the laws they don't like, or taking them to court for spurious reasons.

  What's worse though, is when law enforcement begins to pick and choose what laws they are going to ENFORCE.

• December 13, 2006

  12:31 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  They are a drain on our society, get them the hell out, no amnesty, if they are so proud of their mexican flags and "culture", why did they leave it? More raids, more deportation, more death marches!

• December 13, 2006

  12:32 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  12:22. You got your history from some fictional Aztlan mystic legend.

  The Native Americans were here, you were not. You came over on a boat, you do not have another language, you speak Spanish. Spain is in Europe. You were bred with the Aztecs and other South American Tribes and migrated north. Listen and learn.

• December 13, 2006

  12:33 PM

  Estes Park writes:

  It's about time the Government (Federal or State) does something to enforce the law. The Illegals are killing this country and bringing their crime culture way of life here. In Estes Park, we make it easy for these illegals by subsidizing them and their families, offering free food, medical, education. Enforce our laws and quit babying these Mexicans. Bad enough we have to print stuff in Spanish and listen to our telephone to ' press 1 for English'.
  

• December 13, 2006

  12:38 PM

  Zappa O'Tech writes:

  The price of meat just went up
  And your old lady just went down.

• December 13, 2006

  12:38 PM

  M.H. writes:

  Why would you want to be some where when you are not wanted. Do you realize how you are being treated by being illegal. You are denied the basic rights of American's and you can't do anything about it. You put you're family's in jeopardy the entire time you are here. You are smuggled in at the cost of you and you're children's lives. The American company's treat you horribly and don't respect you. Is this the American Dream you hoped for? There is something terribly wrong with you people. It must be the water in Mexico or something. You have to get a clue. Get legal and then you can have a chance at the American Dream. Everything you have now is temporay and will be taken from you. Does anybody get it? If you were here legally none of this would of affected you're holiday.

• December 13, 2006

  12:42 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  I was glad to see this as my son could not find work as cannot speak spanish and we are American Indians. These people are here illegally and stealing ID's. I and my wife were laid off from St.Anthony hospital and replaced by illegals. The people at swift and around here doing construction make more than most enlisted personal in the military. We were laid off at Christmas and they did not care about us. These people are not Am.Indians and were not here years ago only the red man.

• December 13, 2006

  12:45 PM

  AJ writes:

  Regarding your Greeley Identity theft at Swift Plants, now you are just sending all illegals to Denver Border Streets. As if we didn’t have enough problems here. Where is ICE and when will they check all Taco Bells in south west Denver

• December 13, 2006

  12:46 PM

  Swift writes:

  Help Wanted

• December 13, 2006

  12:47 PM

  Layla writes:

  12:42 -- I am sorry to hear of your situation, it's not right. These illegals dont care about anybody but themselves. They are very selfish. And when they don't get what they want, they throw a tantrum. It will get worse, especially if they don't get what they want. They have no impulse control.

• December 13, 2006

  12:48 PM

  Renee writes:

  It’s about time and long over due. Too bad it was only about ID Theft and not that they were here illegally as well. I wish they would get this zealous on all of them for being here illegally and they would shut down our borders to illegals from ALL countries walking in here.
  

• December 13, 2006

  12:53 PM

  Illegal alien writes:

  Wow! There are some real hate filled people in this country. I have a simple solution to the illegal immigrant issue. 98% of this country is here illegally. Remember your ancestors that came over on boats hundreds of years ago? They were illegals. So unless you have ancestry, unlike Ward Churchill, that predates the invasion of this land I say get the hell out of my country.

• December 13, 2006

  12:55 PM

  Dwight Jack writes:

  I really don't give a hoot how much the demonstrators and Confianza scream and holler. If these people are here illegally and have stolen documentation from other Americans, they should go and go now.

  I have said for many months that all of this hand wringing about fences and border patrol is silly. What happened at Swift is the way to correct the problem. I heard today that Swift thinks this will cost them $100 million. Good. Pay attention businessmen.

• December 13, 2006

  12:57 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  JW 12:22
  Deserved criticisms were directed at you for your words. Like jay, you backpedal reflexively when you say stupid things and try to blame someone else. This is why you have no credibility. Both of you.

• December 13, 2006

  12:58 PM

  sandman writes:

  illegal alien -- you're funny

• December 13, 2006

  1:00 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Ward Churchill is German, has no indian you douche bag illegal. Cut my grass and go home

• December 13, 2006

  1:04 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Liberals are running out of justifications for illegal immigration and the status quo. Each time the government (belatedly) enforces immigration laws on BOTH sides of the equation there will be progress.

  Be ready for a major cryfest about the children. They have always been the ace in the hole because illegal immigrants have long known that they can take advantage of the birthright citizenship loophole and use these kids to further their crimes. Thing is, these kids should be taken care of by the governments to which their parents still claim legal and moral allegience. Its high time the energy being wasted on trying to make a claim of racism or other such crap be directed at the foreign governments complicit in exporting their poverty and dependence to our soil.
  Rejoice.

• December 13, 2006

  1:10 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Hey Illegal ALIEN.
  Part of you're stament is true. But when our ancestors got off the boat they did the due dilligance of becomming a US citizens. It just happens that Mexican's don't feel that they have to do the same. I say Mexican's because they are the majority of illegals here in this state and more than likely in the entire country. I don't want to hear any more about us being racist. You people are just as racist as the rest of us. I grew up in North Denver I know whats up. Chicano's and Mexicans total M.O. is racail intimidation. When it happens to you it's not fair. Your a racist. DAMN STRAIGHT! At least I can admit it you coward.Check out My Gang. ICE 13 esai!

• December 13, 2006

  1:10 PM

  jc writes:

  Legal or illegal entry into the states, true identity or stolen identity, the choices are'nt that difficult. The US government and also the Mexican government need to be held responsible for this sad and hurtful situation they are putting on us and the illegals.

• December 13, 2006

  1:11 PM

  Lady of Guadalupe writes:

  If you love and worship me, you will return to Guadelupe to pray. And bring me some tacos and burritos, body of christ gets old after awhile. Your marches in the streets only failed you. YOu must show the americans whats its like without you. Start the 15 million mexican march down south, that will show them. And dont forget some chorizo and green chillie please, get hungry being your scape goat

• December 13, 2006

  1:12 PM

  fiesty writes:

  Illegal alien -

  Arguments like that are completely moronic for the following reasons:

  1. Only individuals who commit a crime, or parties acting as accessories, should be punished for a crime. Not completely innocent individuals who weren't present or even aware of what happened. In this case, you can't punish descendents for a crime they did not commit or were even alive for!

  2. Besides which, you're wrong. There were no laws then against illegal immigration then.

  3. The illegal immigrants trying to claim this is "their land" are wrong; as demonstrated, most are of hispanic origin and speak Spanish- which is European.

  4. Illegal immigrants aren't here for "their" land- they don't want empty farmland, they want the opportunities (and money!) created by the folks here legally.

• December 13, 2006

  1:15 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Keep The Mexicans Deport The
  Chicanos

• December 13, 2006

  1:16 PM

  JW writes:

  "Deserved criticisms were directed at you for your words."

  No, stupid statements based on nothing but misunderstanding or unfounded opinion or just general ignorance do not make deserved criticisms.

  " Like jay, you backpedal reflexively when you say stupid things and try to blame someone else."

  Just because you cant follow the flow of a thread or arguement doenst mean I backpedaled. It means youre an idiot who cant keep up with the conversation.

  
  "This is why you have no credibility. Both of you."

  Whatever. Frankly, Id be worried if you ever agreed with me. Have to go back and recheck my facts, because your unfounded opinions are always in direct conflict with them. Idiot.
  

• December 13, 2006

  1:18 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Well, that did absolutely nothing to defend your innane analogy of labor demand to crack joints.

  Thanks for trying.

• December 13, 2006

  1:23 PM

  Just Wondering writes:

  People from central and south American countries who try to sneak into Mexico are often put to death, unless they have some money or possessions to buy time in the jail instead, and then they are deported.

  Whether this issue is about entering the US without proper authorization, the theft of identities, or some other thing, why is it that it is acceptable for Mexico to protect their border, but not the US to protect ours?

• December 13, 2006

  1:25 PM

  anthony writes:

  An "honest days work" cannot occur if an illegal act (entry to US and theft of identity) is the basis for their work.
  Armed southern Border in Mexico with a shoot first, ask question later policy. And we are given a hard time here for our policies?
  We have ghost towns in mexico, as they export their people here to make wages, with no investment in their countries future, dooming them to forever be our cheap workers.
  If the parents are not here legally, their children born here should not be citizens. That is fair. In many other countries there is not even ANY way to become a citizen unless you are racially of that country. Good luck trying to become a Japanese citizen. But here, the bar is too low.
  Equip the companies with a more effective tool to weed out stolen ID. Swift tried but the system sucked.
  

• December 13, 2006

  1:25 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  For the unable-minded (JW):

  The demand for cheap labor is American business. The supply is exploitable illegal aliens.

  The jobsite raids are a direct intervention on both the demand and supply side. As you pointed out, nothing will work with one-sided enforcement. We are all confident that the investigation was targeting the company for its hiring practices. Why else would Swift have kicked out some 400 people who they "suddenly" realized had false papers.
  (Hint: the answer is that these employees were witnesses to Swifts crimes.) Swift was obviously trying to thwart the successful prosecution of their demand-side culpability.
  Why are you so stupid that you cannot see the obvious?
  (that is a rhetorical question)

• December 13, 2006

  1:28 PM

  Michelle writes:

  From the article I read that before the raid Swift fired 400 in Greeley for being illegal. They know what they are hiring. Lets be fair and prosecute them. I work in construction and They know too. They hire the illegals to pad their pockets. A bunch of Ken Lays.

• December 13, 2006

  1:43 PM

  M.H. writes:

  Hey SO SAD. Yes I am. But not a nazi. I'm a EEO hater. But I hate cryfest whiners like yourself the most. Good thing were not having this conversation in person. SO SAD fits you.

• December 13, 2006

  1:44 PM

  Aristotle writes:

  Sensenbrenner 4437 makes sense. Write your congressman.
  Deport Illegals and implement moratorium on LEGAL immigration from all third world or developing countries. The LEGAL immigration policy must morph into exclusivity rather than inclusivity for the health and longevity of the USA.

• December 13, 2006

  1:51 PM

  JW writes:

  "Well, that did absolutely nothing to defend your innane analogy of labor demand to crack joints."

  Well, you are good for a laugh anyway. If you had any critical thinking skills, you never would have posted this statement. The analogy was the enforcement of drug laws and labor laws, and how they do not cut demand.

  "The jobsite raids are a direct intervention on both the demand and supply side."

  It cut the demand by swift, but not for anyone else. Its just like throwing a drug user in prison. Yea, that user is no longer part of the demand, but it did nothing to negate the underlying issues that create the demand.

  The demand will only be cut by making it less beneficial to employ illegals.

  Bush's guest worker program is the best idea Ive seen along those lines.

  A) It would allow us to tax wages of alien workers, lowering the economic benefit to companies hiring them AND getting aliens to contribute to the tax base. If you really wanted to work this issue, you would give companies that employ citizens breaks on their payrol taxes. Make them pay payroll taxes on guest workers, and none on citizens. That would lower the ammount of salary arbitrage companies realize by employing illegals in a very large way, and actually cut the demand. American citizens would cost little more as employees than guest workers.

  B) It would allow us to actually get the data we need to figure out how to fix this. Given the choice between registering as a guest worker and being able to work without threat of deportation, or working illegally with the threat of deportation, which do you think aliens would chose?

  
  Its not perfect, but its better than anything else Ive seen.

• December 13, 2006

  1:55 PM

  Joseph Hofstetter writes:

  Notice to illegals: Stand by to render unto Ceasar.

• December 13, 2006

  1:57 PM

  Patriot writes:

  anthony,

  
  How would you propose setting up a system that says, like Japan, you can't be a citizen in the US unless you fit racial parameters?

  The US is full of mutts. The only true Americans are the Native Americans.

  Just because other countries are set up that way, doesn't make it a good system.

  An immigrant should become a citizen if he wants to if he takes an oath to love it and defend it. Of course, oaths mean nothing these days.

• December 13, 2006

  2:02 PM

  Just A Thought writes:

  Wasn't it good enough for you people when we laid off 100,000
  American's at FORD, GM, Nike and other large company's just to ship them to Mexico to help build you're economy. Yeah it also cut cost and profited more for those corporations. Wasn't this part of an agreement between the USA and Mexico? Mexico is not living up to the agreement. Let me get this right if you try to sneak into Mexico your more than likey going to be shot. However if a mexican guns down an American police officer and hides in Mexico and is extradited to face charges we can't seek the death penalty because they don't support capital punishment. Hmmm. The way it looks to me is that Mexico doesn't have to play by the rules. Well hell just what are the rules? They don't even know. They just makem up as they go. Well boys and girls I say it's time to remind Mexico who they hell we are. And how small in the equasion they are. Send the troops. Arm the Minute Men shoot first let the Lady Gaudalupe sort them out.

• December 13, 2006

  2:11 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "It cut the demand by swift, but not for anyone else. Its just like throwing a drug user in prison. Yea, that user is no longer part of the demand, but it did nothing to negate the underlying issues that create the demand.

  The demand will only be cut by making it less beneficial to employ illegals."

  JW,
  You mean to tell me that having your production line shut down and having to replace over 1200 workers is no incentive to not hire illegals?

  I believe it will also make other companies start to evaluate their hiring practices so they don't have the same problems.

  No it is not enough incentive, there needs to be some big fines along with it, but it is a start.

• December 13, 2006

  2:13 PM

  Kermit writes:

  To the "it's not amnesty crowd" in reference to the Guest Worker Program lie, you can put all the lipstick you want on that pig and it's still a pig. Lets just enforce the laws we already have, it is that simple. Sensenbrennerr 4437 does make sense.

• December 13, 2006

  2:19 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "If you had any critical thinking skills, you never would have posted this statement. The analogy was the enforcement of drug laws and labor laws, and how they do not cut demand."

  I have better critical thinking skills that you will ever have, and also a memory of your last attempt to join the thinking crowd by suggesting that the govenment award businesses tax credits for hiring American workers, which would have still left it to the corrupt businesses to hire illegals since the economics favor cheap exploitable labor - something your "critical thinking skills" seems to once again have missed.

  Thanks for the clown-like entertainment. You are not credible, still.
  

• December 13, 2006

  2:21 PM

  JW writes:

  "You mean to tell me that having your production line shut down and having to replace over 1200 workers is no incentive to not hire illegals? "

  "Incentive not to hire illegals" is not the same as cutting demand. The demand is still there, they are just more afraid to take advantage of it. Same with drugs.

  Cutting the demand means making it unprofitable to employ illegals. Then there is no demand for illegal workers.

  We have been making penalties for drugs harsher and harsher for decades, but they are still there because there is demand. Make people stop wanting drugs works. Scaring them because they will be penalized for useing them doesnt make them stop wanting to, so they keep using.

  The same goes for illegals. If companies think they can save money by hiring illegals, they will figure out how to do it and not get caught. If companies wont save money by hiring illegals, they will stop hiring them.

  Get it now?

  You are just confusing cutting demand a little bit because you remove a user with cutting demand totally because you remove the conditions that create it.

• December 13, 2006

  2:28 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Immigration law enforcement, workplace enforcement (more of the Swift strategy) and total avoidance of amnesty (read: comprehensive reform) will lead to attrition of illegals since there will be no work or identities for them to steal.
  That is the best plan. Always has been despite liberals and special interest attempts to relive history with yet another mass amnesty program.

  NumbersUSA would welcome like minded Americans to review their policy stance on these and other immigration issues. Review it and make up your own mind if you should join the growing movement.

• December 13, 2006

  2:35 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "[Cutting the] "Incentive not to hire illegals" is not the same as cutting demand'

  Yet another example of the doublespeak that is frankly getting painful to keep reading from the celebrated moron JW.

  Let' open it up to the peanut gallery: True or False - the incentive to hire illegal labor is the same thing as the demand for illegal labor since what underlies each is cheap labor costs and maximal profits from the exploitation of same?

  Anyone?
  Sheesh.

• December 13, 2006

  2:36 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  I live in sight of the Plant in Greeley and there are plenty of legal workers to fill the vacancies. They had a reputation for hiring illegal workers in the past and I can only assume that this was on purpose so they could keep a lid on any violations regarding health or safety. I doubt they skip a beat and the new workers will have fewer illegal but many will be back. It seems they didn’t call in everyone. I hope ICE is reading this. I don’t think they called everyone in. I live very close to a person that works there and was not called in. I do question his status too. I actually wonder if he is a coyote, and they warned him.

• December 13, 2006

  2:37 PM

  Michelle writes:

  I agree

• December 13, 2006

  2:46 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Thanks 2:35,
  I was looking for the right words, and you found them!

  Reducing demand (through fear, attrition, fines, deportation, etc) is the same as cutting the incentive for hiring.

• December 13, 2006

  2:51 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Greeley smells bad.

• December 13, 2006

  2:56 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  ICE could have saved a bundle by just dropping Napalm on these plants. Bomb first, ask questions later

• December 13, 2006

  2:57 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  But it is getting better!

• December 13, 2006

  3:00 PM

  Eddie and Wanda writes:

  At last our laws are being enforced as they should have been for years.I.D. theft and illegal entry into our country are not victimless crimes.I applaud the government for it's actions.
  
  I am an unemployed veteran and my family have been citizens of this country for 268 years.Jobs must be offered to Americans first.Unemployment in my area is 10% and many have given up looking.
  
  Why don't companies advertise for help in this Appalachian Mountain area?Hundreds if not thousands would be interested in making more than $5.25 (the norm here ) and they have a great work ethic.
  

• December 13, 2006

  3:02 PM

  NumbersUSA writes:

  NumbersUSA.com

  A growing population of concerned Americans can find strength in lobbying through this group. Already the effects of coordinated action have delivered results.
  

• December 13, 2006

  3:08 PM

  JW writes:

  ""[Cutting the] "Incentive not to hire illegals" is not the same as cutting demand'"

  LOL! Cutting the incentive not to hire illegals? NO! Idiot. What I said was ""Incentive not to hire illegals" is not the same as cutting demand." There was no "Cutting the". YOU added that.

  
  "Yet another example of the doublespeak that is frankly getting painful to keep reading from the celebrated moron JW."

  Hey look, if you are too stupid to read what is written AND understand it...thats hardly my problem.

  "Let' open it up to the peanut gallery: True or False - the incentive to hire illegal labor is the same thing as the demand for illegal labor since what underlies each is cheap labor costs and maximal profits from the exploitation of same?"

  True.

  Unfortunatley for you, what I said was; "incentive NOT to hire illegals" is not the same as demand. In other words (for you, idiot) laws penalizing the use of illegal labor are not the same as the demand for illegal labor.

  You said; incentive TO hire illegals. And yes, the incentive to hire illegals is the demand to hire illegals.

  
  Get the difference dunce? It has to do with the presence of the word "NOT" in my statment, and the lack thereof in yours.

  "Anyone?
  Sheesh."

  Agreed. You are stupid beyond anyone Ive ever talked to.

• December 13, 2006

  3:09 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  The left just seems to want to simplify everything, drugs are a problem, so legalize them. Prositutes are a problem, so leagalize them. People dont want to raise kids, so abort the babies. Dems love money, but wont work for it, so tax everyone to death. Mexicans are a problem, give them amnesty. All overly simple and easy answers to lifes problems. But nothing that comes easy is worth having. And so forthe all liberals should be gassed

• December 13, 2006

  3:10 PM

  J. Vasquez writes:

  I am glad to see this finally going on. It's about time these leachs getting what they deserve. First they come into our country illegally and then commit another crime by stealing peoples identities. kick 'em in the a$$ and tell to get the funk outta da country.

  It's also sad that the Rocky Mountain news would print a picture of a little girl sad about her boyfriend being arrested. HELLO YOU NEED TO BE AT LEAST 18 TO WORK AT SWIFT....... can you pedophillia. The mother should be prosecuted along with the illegals too.

• December 13, 2006

  3:20 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "Incentive not to hire illegals" is not the same as cutting demand'"

  Incentive to not hire illegals (double negative) is the same as incentive to hire legals. Is this not the same as cutting demand for Illegals? Or are you of the Clinton clan where it depends on what you mean by IS.

• December 13, 2006

  3:23 PM

  Christine writes:

  illegal immigration is a crime against this country, stealing an american ID should be considered a horrendous crime against this country. if i stole another americans ID i would be in jail for identity theft. now here we have these foreigners have been caught in two serious crimes. if they got caught doing these two serious crimes what is the likelyhood that they have committed more serious crimes against MY country. apparently they dont care about our laws as long as they get what they want. i cant commit those same crimes without going to jail. I AM OUTRAGED that these foreigners are allowed to get away with serious crimes.

• December 13, 2006

  3:24 PM

  thankyou writes:

  I'm so sick of the whining - poor me - Come on - It's illegal!!! What part of that do they not understand - if I knew spanish I'd translate it, but since I live in AMERICA I speak ENGLISH. I'm tired of hearing about it - "what are we going to do now?" - go back to mexico and then you can be with your babies daddy if it's such a big concern. I'm just so tired of it - you BROKE THE LAW

• December 13, 2006

  3:25 PM

  history buff writes:

  "Liberals are running out of justifications for illegal immigration and the status quo."

  Are you saying the Swift company is a conglomeration of liberals? Your antecedent doesn't support the conclusion.

  "Deport Illegals and implement moratorium on LEGAL immigration from all third world or developing countries. The LEGAL immigration policy must morph into exclusivity rather than inclusivity for the health and longevity of the USA."

  Bad idea. Our economy is expanding and needs to increase the labor force. Wouldn't it be better to have a rational immigration policy that admits enough immigrants to fulfill our needs rather than perpetuating an undocumented, black market labor force? Also, you shouldn't use words you don't understand, even though they sound cool.

  "If the parents are not here legally, their children born here should not be citizens."

  Totally knee-jerk reaction. The 14th Amendment to our Constitution is one of the great laws in the history of civilization that was made possible by great sacrifice. Besides, if you are an orphan and cannot prove that your parents were here legally, you will be born without parents and a country.

  "98% of this country is here illegally."

  Please read the 14th Amendment. One extremist is as dumb as another.

  "Immigration law enforcement, workplace enforcement (more of the Swift strategy) and total avoidance of amnesty (read: comprehensive reform) will lead to attrition of illegals since there will be no work or identities for them to steal."

  That sounds good. I don't know why it hasn't worked until now.

  "Armed southern Border in Mexico with a shoot first, ask question later policy. And we are given a hard time here for our policies?"

  That policy was tried before. One single wrongful killing of an American citizen stopped it overnight. Imagine that. American citizens up in arms about deprivation of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

  This problem won't be solved unless there is more agreement than there is over the Iraq war.

• December 13, 2006

  3:26 PM

  Tom writes:

  "Get the difference dunce? It has to do with the presence of the word "NOT" in my statment, and the lack thereof in yours"

  JW, you are just helping the folks who point out your insanity. You make no sense at all.

• December 13, 2006

  3:29 PM

  JW writes:

  "Incentive to not hire illegals (double negative) is the same as incentive to hire legals. Is this not the same as cutting demand for Illegals? Or are you of the Clinton clan where it depends on what you mean by IS."

  Jesus.

  Incentive not to hire illegals=Penalties for hiring illegals.

  Incentive to hire illegals=cheap labor.

  How the hell can these things be the same?

  
  BTW, where is the double negative? "not" is the only negative in there. Where is the other one?

  "JW, you are just helping the folks who point out your insanity. You make no sense at all."

  Only in your world buddy.

• December 13, 2006

  3:34 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Unfortunately for you this world cannot be for whites only... You're a minority pecker wood. I hate your guts, too. When I driving through my hood and watch your kind walking their dog...my blood boils.

• December 13, 2006

  3:36 PM

  Samuel Miniens writes:

  No, JW. In our world. I have been reading your posts and you sound confused. Whatever fractional nuance you are searching for seems beside the point. You are arguing a losing batlle to somehow claim that enforcing labor laws, both for the demanders and the suppliers side will not work. You have been on record as wanting amnesty (comprehensive reform in Bush-speak) and wanting less punishment for lawbreakers. All of this is being rejected over and over again in this blog and you deem yourself the only sane person in a crazy world. Get over yourself for pete's sake.

• December 13, 2006

  3:45 PM

  MMI writes:

  All bleeding hearts liberals should take in the illegals and feed, clothe, and pay their bills. I pay through the mouth for health and car insurance, and my senior citizen mother can't hardly afford her prescriptions each month. Why should some illegal alien get theirs for free when we don't - and why should they expect the freebies. Go back to Mexico and make it a better place instead of dragging the US down to your dumpy standards.

• December 13, 2006

  3:48 PM

  Smart Guy writes:

  You people need to get a clue.
  I hire them all the time, and i have 2 homes 4 cars and a boat.

  USE THEM! they are cheap!

• December 13, 2006

  3:59 PM

  JW writes:

  "No, JW. In our world. I have been reading your posts and you sound confused."

  Huh. I guess so. Tell me again how incentive NOT TO hire illegals is the same as incentive TO hire illegals?

  "Whatever fractional nuance you are searching for seems beside the point."

  Or just impossible to get across to idiots.

  "You are arguing a losing batlle to somehow claim that enforcing labor laws, both for the demanders and the suppliers side will not work."

  There is precident. Losing an aguement is not the same as people disagreeing with you even when your right. I fail to see how throwing someone in jail makes hiring illegals more expensive.

  "You have been on record as wanting amnesty (comprehensive reform in Bush-speak) and wanting less punishment for lawbreakers."

  Ill admit the amnesty. When did I say I wanted less punishment for lawbreakers?

  "All of this is being rejected over and over again in this blog and you deem yourself the only sane person in a crazy world."

  Call me crazy. I like to have data before I go making decisions that will greatly effect our economy.

  "Get over yourself for pete's sake."

  You are defending a guy that just said incentive TO and incentive NOT TO hire illegals is the same thing. Maybe you ought to take the same advice.

• December 13, 2006

  4:09 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "I fail to see how throwing someone in jail makes hiring illegals more expensive."

  JW,
  I guess you would have to be either the person in jail for hiring the illegals (lawyer costs, loss of income, loss of people buying your product, etc.) or the person trying to hire the illegal labor that won't work for you (they are afraid of going to jail for the minimal wage you are offering) to see that throwing your ass in jail has made it more expensive to hire the illegals.

  Are you really that thick or just being antagonistic?

• December 13, 2006

  4:15 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  I would like the government to protect us by closing the border.

  And if it means with gun, than so be it.
  You an american cant get a job in a fast food place if you dont speek spanish. Hello.. time to wake up, we need to get rid of them. Today would be a good time to start

• December 13, 2006

  4:17 PM

  X writes:

  How fast we forget who has benefitted from illegal workers,
  T-Rex, Homebuilder's, Farmer's etc. Think about that tonight over dinner and also about the person out there working the fields who picks and farms the food your eating.......... There are plenty of job's out here, the excuse is you are not willing to look for them, poor you can't make enought money to buy that Mercedes, "WOW" get a VW ,gets you to the sameplace. And the people talking on the political side give me a break. Soon as you get rid of all the illegals you will have to compete with the ICE, Border Patrol and various Goverment agencies because they will be out of jobs too and will be looking for new ones........

• December 13, 2006

  4:21 PM

  Custer writes:

  Now I know what it must have been like in the 60's. Such racial predjudice. Is there anyone that is looking at the facts instead of the rhetoric and the emotional aspects of this?

  Most of these people are not the drain on the society. They are NOT sophisticated enough to know how to work the systems (welfare, food stamps, etc) But we Americans sure do and we are the ones that are tapping the system. God Forbid we should take any responsibilty when it is so easy to blame others. After spending a bunch of time down south helping with the hurricanes guess who is doing the clean-up? Hispanics! McDonalds has a $6K signing bonus and is paying 9.65/hour and has a HARD time getting the fat ass, lazy welfare gobbling Americans to work. Why work when you can get it for free? We are a nation that is entitled in our own estimation. We need high wages, overtime, 104K plans, insurance, pensions, extended paid vacations, paid advanced education and any other thing we can milk out of a company. And of course WE are not going to do MENIAL labor such as cleaning, harvesting, etc without being paid the really big bucks because who wants that kind of work? Then we all sit back and say boy I just cannot understand why these companies are all going overseas and taking their business with them.

• December 13, 2006

  4:22 PM

  Jim writes:

  I truely beleive that the Swift company and the union that is protecting the illegals should be responsible for the cost of the raid, detainment, and deportation of the illegals taken yesterday. I also heard that United way was helping the families of the illegals which in most cases are illegal themselves. Therefor, United way has seen there last donation from me. The Key word is illegal. Tancredo for President.

• December 13, 2006

  4:26 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Where did you hear that United way was helping them?

  
  YES Tancredo for President
  

• December 13, 2006

  4:31 PM

  Jim writes:

  On 7 news about half an hour ago...

• December 13, 2006

  4:33 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  4:26,
  I also heard that United Way was helping the families of the arrestees on Channel 4 News last night. I'm sure it is being down-played so donations to the United Way aren't hurt.

  I quit donating to them when I found out that any money I earmarked for a special cause was subtracted from that causes regular allotment.

• December 13, 2006

  4:38 PM

  Rick in Geogia writes:

  The ICE must increase the rate at which these raids are taking place. They need to go after the construction and hotel industries. Why should I be paying for the education and health costs of illegal immigrants. I have a friend whose car was totaled by an illegal immigrant without insurance. It cost him plenty and was a mess! Those that want to support the illegals should open up their wallets and fork out $8,000.00/year to pay for the education of an illegal child! The churches that are supporting these illegals should also step up and put their money where the pastor's mouth is...write a check for $250,000.00 to the local school board or the local hospital to defer the cost of illegal immigrants!

• December 13, 2006

  4:39 PM

  Samuel Miniens writes:

  "Tell me again how incentive NOT TO hire illegals is the same as incentive TO hire illegals?"

  OK, I see the nuance. But the point remains that workplace enforcement, whether you call it an incentive not to hire an illegal or a disincentive to hire an illegal is just wordplay. Amnesty is wrong and there is plenty of precedent to prove this. Putting employers in jail or otherwise punishing them economically will stop the illegal behavior. What you propose is a massive increase in the roles of low skilled and high social services consuming workers where we really should be adjusting the current trends of addiction to illegal labor and outsourcing of American jobs for the same benefit to employers. Our economy will not survive this negetive trend.

• December 13, 2006

  4:42 PM

  Chaser5 writes:

  What we are all forgetting is, whether it is racially motivated or not, these people are breaking the law. I pay taxes so that we have the people to protect and enforce the laws that we vote on. These people(illegals) are not able to vote because they have not taken the proper law abiding steps to become citizens or gain work visas. I am sorry to hear that families are being broken up, but maybe there children and spouses should do what most other american families do in these circustances and stay together and follow them back to the country that they belong to. I also believe that the penalties that swift has to pay, should be so great that other companies will make darn sure that they do not practice the same type of hiring policies that have been in place. Also as in a previous post, I will never donate to the United way again!

• December 13, 2006

  4:49 PM

  Liberty King writes:

  If the United way wants to collect donations for the familes of those 'poor' illegal immigrants, that is fine by me, for that is the very definition of charity. Just don't ask me to feel sorry or bad for those people who knowingly employed themselves illegally. You can't tell me that not every single one of those workers knew exactly what they were doing. Thus, do the crime, you risk paying the price.

• December 13, 2006

  4:53 PM

  Red Blood writes:

  Resorting to playing the race card is the best indication that pro-illegal immigrant supporters are desperate. We can take examples from T. Tancredo who decided a long time ago that he would ignore the attempts at personalizing the debate because he knew he was right.
  It is far too late to lament the disruption of peoples' sanctuary as illegal immigrants. It is not a victimless crime, and those who choose to break our laws on a daily basis and then demand respect are barking up the wrong tree.

• December 13, 2006

  4:58 PM

  Send the illegals back! writes:

  If the United Way is spending money to help illegal immigrants, I will cancel my contribution to the United Way. The food workers union that is supporting these illegals doesn't deserve the support of the American workers.

  I hope the church supporting these illegals will go down to the local school district and the local hospital and write out checks of $250,000 each to help defray the costs of these illegals!

• December 13, 2006

  5:00 PM

  Custer writes:

  Some of these people are not illegal, the law itself can be confusing. Anyone remember the amnesty program a few years back? There are people here who had to be brave enough to admit that they were here illegally. They filled out the mountain of paperwork, PAID $2500 in an effort to get "on the right track" with the government and start the process for legal immigration. Know what happened? NOTHING They paid their money, did the right thing and got zippo.

• December 13, 2006

  5:05 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "They paid their money, did the right thing and got zippo."

  Definitely part of the problem of apologists for illegal immigrants. Whatever fine they paid would never reimburse the victims of identity theft, the failing schools and healthcare systems they have driven to the point of collapse. Illegal immigrants steal their way into our country and we should reward them for admitting their crimes?
  Sick.

• December 13, 2006

  5:07 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Only the truly stupid blame our failing healthcare and school systems on illegal immigration.

• December 13, 2006

  5:15 PM

  JW writes:

  "Amnesty is wrong and there is plenty of precedent to prove this."

  What precident?

  
  "Putting employers in jail or otherwise punishing them economically will stop the illegal behavior."

  Thats what they say about the drug war too. Hasnt worked.

  " What you propose is a massive increase in the roles of low skilled and high social services consuming workers"

  But what you propose is a massive increase in the cost of enforcement. Which is more?

  "where we really should be adjusting the current trends of addiction to illegal labor"

  I can understand that sentiment. But look at our unemployment. Its fine. We dont need these jobs, but we need someone to do them.

  "and outsourcing of American jobs for the same benefit to employers."

  Thats a different issue altogether. Id be happy to discuss it with you, but for the purpose of this discussion, I will leave it alone for now.

  " Our economy will not survive this negetive trend."

  What negative trend are illegals having on our economy? The typical ones Ive heard are as follows;

  Illegals take jobs from Americans. Again, our unemployment suggest otherwise.

  Illegals raise the cost of healthcare. I will agree to this. However, illegals are not one of the primary drivers of increased healthcare costs. Those consist of costs for new tech, and perscription drug company proffits, as well as the insurance industry proffits.

  Illegals dont contribute to the tax base. True. With the guest worker program they would.

  Illegals are violent criminals. There are NO statistics suggesting that illegals are more inclined to commit violent crime than any group.

  Illegals send $20 billion back home every year. We pull $116 billion out of the Mexican economy alone every year.

  Illegals use our school systems without paying in. Again, true. Again, the guest worker program will help with that by adding them to the tax base.

  The fact is, we just dont know what the impact of policy changes will be. We currently cant get the data, because much of what illegals do or recieve is unreported.

  I understand that the paper tells you another horrific stat or example of what illegals do every day. But that is just a snap shot. We simply do not know enough to understand the big picture of what role illegals play in our economy. This ignorance, unfortunately, does not stop people from having very strong emotional beliefs about what should be done, and you can see it plastered all over this blog.

• December 13, 2006

  5:43 PM

  Custer writes:

  No WAY Jose, am I apologizing. Just trying to find a LOGICAL (whata concept) way to solve this. If you think our healthcare problems and school problems are because of illegals you had better get you head out of the sand and check the facts.

  We can start with the simple basic principle of responsibility, respect for elders, and the power we have taken away from our teachers. These have no bearing at all on the illegal immigrant situation.
  Healthcare is throught the roof because we are paying for the welfare and indigents that do not work and live off of us. Let us not also forget what it costs for a hospital or doctor to be insured (and it gets passed to us) because we so love to sue, sue, sue (doing it the Old American way-what can we get for free).

  As to the identity theft, again these people do not have the sophistication, computers and technical knowledge to have a major impact there. Most hackers and identity theft people are educated right here in our very own schools. And while we are at it, has anybody stopped to think that they may have been caught with other peoples id's when they were paying taxes under that persons SS#? Bet Swift takes out taxes on their workers just like every other company and the Feds tracked it that way... And speaking of taxes... Do you have any idea that the companies in this country are the largest taxpayers and when we run them off, our taxes will go higher to make up their loss. Simple economics.

• December 13, 2006

  5:44 PM

  w.m writes:

  I think the recent bust of these illegal immigrants, while upsetting to some, was the right move. Like it or not these individuals are here illegally and breaking our laws. I realize, like most, that these people are simply trying to make a better life for their families and I can respect that, but laws exist for a reason.

  Let's not forget the companies hiring all these illegals as well. Regardless of what Swift wants people to believe we are all not that damn dumb to believe they didn't realize they had illegals working for them when a bust turns up 1200+. They should be fined along with anyone else that hires them.

  The problem with this tactic is that many Americans have forgotten what it means to work hard...the hispanics that I have met have not forgotten that. These people do some of the crappiest jobs imaginable for even crappier wages. I don't see Joe Smith complaining about paying Juan and Julio 4 dollars and hour to hoe beets in the hot sun or 50 dollars to put up a new fence around their house but in the same breath we bitch about them invading our schools and increasing medical costs. We have no one to blame but ourselves because we as Americans continue to support these individuals to save a few bucks.

  To those illegals out there...if you want to help your cause you have to start immersing yourselves into American society; much like my father-in-law did when he arrived in this country 50 years ago. That means you have to learn the language, much like I had to learn German when I live in Germany. I don't expect an immigrant to be a English major but for God sake make the effort.

  We have a major problem in this country that requires a solution. Illegal immigration is not going away and Washington needs to come to grips with the situation and fix it...STOP making the situation a political one. Your elected not only to represent the people of the United States but in some respects those that seek to become citizens of this great country as well. DO SOMETHING ALREADY

• December 13, 2006

  5:56 PM

  JW writes:

  "Do you have any idea that the companies in this country are the largest taxpayers and when we run them off, our taxes will go higher to make up their loss. Simple economics."

  We already pay thier tax burden. Its built into the cost of their products, just like labor costs, or material costs, energy costs, etc. Its not like they take it out of their proffit margin.

• December 13, 2006

  5:59 PM

  Jake writes:

  I keep reading in this blog that the unemployment figures are fine so that is not an issue. Whom ever feels this way please learn about unemployment, how it’s measured and the intangibles such as underemployment.

  I’m a college graduate with many years of experience and post college education and I’m making less than what I did 15 years ago.
  Jobs are off-shored and in-shored. The laws of economics are not esoteric. They work.

  The more people who are in this Country working for less wages and benefits will undermine all workers wages and benefits.

  Add the costs of fighting the drug war. Billions. Where do most of the illegal drugs come from? Mexico. Even if the drugs are not grown or manufactured in Mexico that’s the entry point. It’s easier to bring it across the Mexico – United States border than any other means.

  The social costs to our Nation from drugs are impossible to calculate. Trillions I’m sure.

  I watch on television as people are screaming into cell phones as they sit in their SUV’s as their loved ones are taken away for being illegal and stealing identities and I wonder how they can afford these items when they play the “poor us” card. Or the race card and the “What of the children?” card.

  Every Nation has a finite amount of resources. The citizens of the United States are the most caring and generous people on this planet. We care and our generosity is being taken advantage of by greedy corporations, drug Cartels and organized crime (That’s what a gang is.)

  There is NOTHING from Mexico that I want or need. Go home and fix your country and stop abusing the citizens of the United States.

  We may be a Nation of immigrants, but the last wave of immigration was all that was needed.

  The law of supply and demand will wash the cheap labor issue away and our economy will again stabilize.

  Take your drugs and gangs and violence and go home.
  Thank you ICE!
  

• December 13, 2006

  6:00 PM

  John writes:

  Identity theft? I think these folks were actually contributing part of their paycheck to someone's social security retirement fund

• December 13, 2006

  6:11 PM

  Custer writes:

  Trust me on this one- you do NOT pay their tax burden. That is why they are in China, Taiwan, Mexico and India. You want it cheap and you got it. The other countries have their taxes. Those companies that try to do business here are too busy trying to keep their heads above water and find someone-anyone who will work for a reasonable rate. Our children are taught that they do not have to get dirty, work too hard, should get a college education and their base rate of pay out of school should be in the mid $30K. Yep, bet they will be the first ones standing in line applying for jobs at Swift.

• December 13, 2006

  6:18 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  JW What you wrote below is simply not true!
  Every aspect of illegal immigration cannot be accounted for, but please look to your web browser for the facts that can.
  Arrests at the border cannot be counted? Repeat offenders? Arrests made of illegals bring in drugs?
  Of course there is cold hard facts out there.
  I have read some of the idiot white comments and the idiot non-white comments on this blog.
  I mean, if you don't feel a real social war about to explode then I guess it's just me.
  My son is called a cracker in his own school and he is scared to death to defend himself. He does not want to get SHOT!
  Is this the Front Range you remember from even 1990?
  I do know where I stand in this mess and I walk softley and carry a very big stick.

  
  "I understand that the paper tells you another horrific stat or example of what illegals do every day. But that is just a snap shot. We simply do not know enough to understand the big picture of what role illegals play in our economy. This ignorance, unfortunately, does not stop people from having very strong emotional beliefs about what should be done, and you can see it plastered all over this blog.

  Posted by JW on December 13, 2006 05:15 PM "

• December 13, 2006

  6:30 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  JW likes to see his name in print and he believes the crap he spews. 5 bucks says the dude is on unemployment or SSI. Way too much time posting his drivel here.

• December 13, 2006

  6:40 PM

  Custer writes:

  Jeez, why do people keep trying to throw anything out there to see what sticks? The Columbine & Bailey shootings were NOT illegal immigrants. They were American children with NO parental supervision, that had teachers that no longer have any authority and kids who were raised in a society that is all about me, me, me and what I FEEL like doing right now. The social problens we are experiencing are not caused by the under educated, hard working illegal immigrants that are in our country (ironically most with the values-family-and ethics that made this country GREAT and we have sadly lost). If our over indulgent countrymen would stop using drugs, spend more time and focus on their family, the demand would dry up!

• December 13, 2006

  6:52 PM

  Remembers writes:

  Kids, this has nothing to do with race, no matter how hard you wish it to be so.

  Which laws can we choose to obey and which can we ignore? Those in the US illegally begin a landslide of laws they break, from coming here to begin with, to illegally obtaining a license, employment, documents, not having insurance... ah, all little details that have a very major cumulative impact on our country.

  Do you remember what the union movement went through to obtain the 40 hour work week? Health insurance? Vacation time? Sick leave? Decent wages? It was a difficult and bloody time in this country. Lives were lost. Is this the answer to the unions? Bring in cheap, illegal aliens who will put up with anything? How long will it be before they want more for their existence? Will we see history repeat itself?

  Feel sorry for the spouses, children? Only marginally so. When a person comes into this country illegally, they know what they have done, they know they are illegal, they know they have no legal right to those documents they purchased. If someone chooses an illegal alien as a spouse, they also know the legal ramifications and possible consequences. Be willing to take responsibility for your choices, and don't whine when you have to face those consequences. Those parents made those choices when they chose to bring their children here, illegally, or chose to have children here. They need to be responsible for their actions, and face those consequences.

  Reality is, the United States exists. The United States has a code of law. If you want to live here and partake of the benefits of this country, be willing to follow the laws. All of them. Not just the ones you like.

• December 13, 2006

  7:01 PM

  spam6263 writes:

  Swift & Company and other employers hide behind the sorry verification system put in place by the govt. They can say they "did their part" and verified the identity. Tighten this system up Sen Tancredo!

  We have the uninvited illegals with stolen identities that they purchased from some broker. Track the sources down and lock them up.

  And now the flipping union is backing these people up (my immediate family are a bunch of union dues contributors). The unions aren't doing anything for these people other than collecting their dues for their political action (LEFT WING NUT) committees. Thats why they are screaming. Unions have lost their way and thats why they are not growing. Their tactics are outdated along with their message. Unions haven't done a thing for the American worker since the 1950-1960 era. Although they'll huff and puff and tell you all about what they do for workers. Look what they did when they bought UAL and their lies of ownership, employees got the shaft all the way to bankruptcy, with UNION LEADERSHIP!

  For those who can't follow the rules. You've received your reward. Stop your whining. You are not a citizen, you have no legal recourse but to return home and enter legally. You are not paying taxes, you have no U.S. representation. You are not a constituent of any elected U.S. representative. You and your families are burdens on the U.S. tax payers. I don't pay taxes to educate your kids, but mine. I have insurance but when I need to use the emergency room, if you weren't using it as your primary care physician maybe my sick kid could be seen sooner. You're here under less than honorable pretenses.

  Am I heartless, maybe, but I have a sister in law married to an illegal with his brand new anchor baby. He overstayed his Visa and was kicked back across the border for the holidays and 8months before he can return (legally). If he had followed his LEGAL immigrant Papa's example, they wouldn't be in this predicament. Fair is fair even when it's close to home! Follow the rules!
  Ethos my hetos!!!

  For those working here legally, thanks for following the rules.

• December 13, 2006

  7:04 PM

  spam6263 writes:

  Swift & Company and other employers hide behind the sorry verification system put in place by the govt. They can say they "did their part" and verified the identity. Tighten this system up Sen Tancredo!

  We have the uninvited illegals with stolen identities that they purchased from some broker. Track the sources down and lock them up.

  And now the flipping union is backing these people up (my immediate family are a bunch of union dues contributors). The unions aren't doing anything for these people other than collecting their dues for their political action (LEFT WING NUT) committees. Thats why they are screaming. Unions have lost their way and thats why they are not growing. Their tactics are outdated along with their message. Unions haven't done a thing for the American worker since the 1950-1960 era. Although they'll huff and puff and tell you all about what they do for workers. Look what they did when they bought UAL and their lies of ownership, employees got the shaft all the way to bankruptcy, with UNION LEADERSHIP!

  For those who can't follow the rules. You've received your reward. Stop your whining. You are not a citizen, you have no legal recourse but to return home and enter legally. You are not paying taxes, you have no U.S. representation. You are not a constituent of any elected U.S. representative. You and your families are burdens on the U.S. tax payers. I don't pay taxes to educate your kids, but mine. I have insurance but when I need to use the emergency room, if you weren't using it as your primary care physician maybe my sick kid could be seen sooner. You're here under less than honorable pretenses.

  Am I heartless, maybe, but I have a sister in law married to an illegal with his brand new anchor baby. He overstayed his Visa and was kicked back across the border for the holidays and 8months before he can return (legally). If he had followed his LEGAL immigrant Papa's example, they wouldn't be in this predicament. Fair is fair even when it's close to home! Follow the rules!
  Ethos my hetos!!!

  For those working here legally, thanks for following the rules.

• December 13, 2006

  7:07 PM

  Custer writes:

  Very true. But cannot pass the opportunity to comment on the unions as I grew up cutting my teeth on them. They started with a noble cause and accomplished much. Unfortunately in the end they ended up corrupt and thinking about how much they could line their pockets with on the backs of others. Bringing me back to the point that our biggest challenges originate in our own HOMES. We cannot lob missles over the fence until we have gotten our own households (kids, family and communities) in order.

• December 13, 2006

  7:45 PM

  ICE Fan writes:

  Thank You ICE. This was long overdue. Only problem is that you arrested the wrong people. You missed the incompetents in Congress, both sides of the aisle, and of course the White House Desperado's. They are the ones that have been negligent in their duties in carrying out their oath of office. Put the illegals back to work and give Congress and the Exective Branch AMNESTY. They, the GOVT created this sorry situation. Sen Tancredo and the rest of these government employees need to produce something other than this for a salary of $167,000.00 a year. That is also what they collect when they RETIRE. What a sweet deal huh?

• December 13, 2006

  7:49 PM

  Treacherous White ICE writes:

  Watch out migrant workers!

  Treacherous, white ICE raids = terrorism

  Cuz we like our wage slaves frightened.

• December 13, 2006

  7:51 PM

  fred writes:

  Ok all you self rightous out off work white folk. Get on up to Greely and get in line for those jobs you say illegals are stealing from you. When ALL our food cost go through the roof because of a depleated or missing labor pool, what say you then? The only good thing to come out of W's mouth is the guest worker program. Get real!

• December 13, 2006

  7:56 PM

  Adam Smith writes:

  Typical liberal rag. Before getting todays RMN I told myself that the RMN would splash gratuitous photos of children, wailing women and Mexicans in a church, not to mention all the bleeding heart headlines all over the hard copy of todays paper. Well lo and behold I was not let down. No renewal on this subscription and I will try my hardest to avoid those that advertise with RMN.

• December 13, 2006

  8:13 PM

  fiesty writes:

  JW,

  "Ill admit the amnesty" [reference supporting it] How on earth can you say that? I can understand a legal Guest Worker program, whereby the obvious demand is met by those following the law who are not interested in becoming citizens. But for amnesty-

  1. Rewards those here who broke the law.
  2. Promotes those here illegally over those who have been waiting years to come here through legal channels.
  3. Doesn't work! In 1986, they tried amnesty- 3 million were granted. Twenty years later, we now have a conservative estimate of 9-11 illegal aliens! Talk about a bad idea. And you want to repeat it?
  4. The number of immigrants entering the US this year is 1.1 million. According to the Census Bureau's US population projection, by 2050 the number of immigrants will be 450 million...
  5. According to the Huddle study, in 1996 illegal aliens only contributed 37% towards their $24.4 billion cost. So we paid more than 15 billion that year to support them, and that's based upon 1996 statistics, when the illegal alien numbers were lower, so who knows what the cost is now!

  Okay, I have a problem supporting illegal aliens particularly when we can't take care of our citizens- hell, it's a disgrace when the VA cuts services to service injured veterans due to funding cuts!

• December 13, 2006

  8:18 PM

  LatinGirl writes:

  Did you or did you not knowingly break the laws of the United States by coming into this county? I'm thinking yes you did. As criminals, you get what you deserve. How dare you cheat those who wait for years for the gift to come into this county legally. The only people who are to blame for what happened are those you who encourage illegal activity. Go ICE!

• December 13, 2006

  8:42 PM

  legal writes:

  If someone wants to gain entry to the United States of America - that's great! Millions have done so legally. Get in LINE.

  And if they don't want to wait the few years it takes, the Marines are looking for a few good men! HOORAH!

  FREEDOM IS NOT FREE.

• December 13, 2006

  9:14 PM

  legal writes:

  For the illegal immigrants who think that THIS LAND WAS ONCE THEIRS', you might want to check your HISTORY books, it belonged to Native Americans. That was ME.

  Bu-BYE, now.

• December 13, 2006

  9:31 PM

  Kenan writes:

  It is about time we are taking care of crime in America regardless of what the nationality of the crook is. Stop protecting those who violate the law.

• December 13, 2006

  9:50 PM

  benn writes:

  rofl... Tancredo for President... you all really are nuts

• December 13, 2006

  10:00 PM

  Mike Tousignant writes:

  I am glad to see the ICE do its job but they still have a lot more to do. I am so sick and tired of hearing that we shouldn't be doing this when if you tried to stay in say Mexico illegally they would arrest you and kick you out.
  I have no problem with imigration just please let us know that you are here that is all that we are asking.
  And stop saying how we are destoying families we were not the ones who crossed the border illegally.
  

• December 13, 2006

  10:48 PM

  Not Ignorant writes:

  Before anyone says they should come here legally why don't you do a little research on that process. From Mexico it takes between 8-10 years ON AVERAGE for someone to legally migrate to the U.S. and you need to have money. If it was easy don't you think they would do that? If you needed to provide for your family and couldn't in the United States but Canada had jobs going unfilled that no Canadian wanted to do I would think to support your family you would do what you needed to do too.

  But I'm sure Swift will be fully staffed in a few days since all us white people can now go get these jobs back that were "stole" from us. Can't wait to see that happen

• December 13, 2006

  10:52 PM

  DenverAssembly writes:

  Let’s say you had a neighbor and close friend that suddenly couldn’t buy a descent house for his family, nor the car for his wife that he had been working and saving for years to buy; all because some low-life schmuck used his name and social security number to take out loans and finance several luxuries for himself that he couldn’t pay off, which totally shot your friends credit into the ground. Let’s say after years of misery for your friend, the police catch up with said schmuck and incarcerate his criminal ass. Would you seriously protest the cops’ actions and whine about how unfair it was that that criminal would have to be separated from his family ???? You bleeding-heart sympathizers are absolutely ridiculous

• December 13, 2006

  10:58 PM

  DenverAssembly writes:

  Yeah, and I'm sure Canada would think VERY highly of the United States if we were to export some fifty-plus million of our least respectable, least educated citizens to their territory only to have them send the vast majority of their earnings back to the U.S... nice.

• December 13, 2006

  11:09 PM

  Not Ignorant writes:

  Denver Assembly- Committing Identity theft isn't the same as being here illegally in order to support your family. Those people should be prosecuted, just like the hundreds of thousands of people who commit identity theft that aren't illegal immigrants. And no offense but if you aren't checking your credit, etc. at least once a year so that stuff doesn't hit you out of the blue you are an idiot. You can get those issues straightened out on a report it's a huge pain and takes some time but you aren't stuck for life.

  And while most of them do send money to a country with levels of poverty we've never seen they are still paying taxes. If they are getting an actual pay check they are paying towards the same stuff you are, with their rent and mortgages they are paying property tax, and they are working jobs that no Americans would do which keeps costs low so your sheltered self can still afford to go to mcdonalds and have a nice steak every once in a while.

  Anyone else want to take some time off in the next couple days and go see just how long the line is of white people willing to process meat for $8 an hour??

• December 13, 2006

  11:15 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  If I had a dime for every ignorant thing JW or jay says:

  "I understand that the paper tells you another horrific stat or example of what illegals do every day. But that is just a snap shot."

  In JW fantasy world, snapshots somehow mean the opposite trend that they illustrate - that is unless you are barfing up Democratic talking points on other subjects where snapshots are just fine, thank you, to make partisan points.

  Hypocrites.

• December 13, 2006

  11:20 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "Committing Identity theft isn't the same as being here illegally in order to support your family."

  So how do you support your family as an illegal without stealing identities in order to get work?

  "And no offense but if you aren't checking your credit, etc. at least once a year so that stuff doesn't hit you out of the blue you are an idiot."

  I see, victims of identity theft are somehow to blame.....

  A fine example of ignorant liberal pc-think. Just further proof that we are on the right track enforcing laws against illegal immigration.

• December 13, 2006

  11:21 PM

  INDIANREALCITIZEN writes:

  If the Indian's which are the ONLY real Citizen of this country can decide, they even want to say you all ILLegal dude....Include whoever work for ICE. Anybody know the history about this country ??? or are you Blind about history??? Humanity ??? Liberty ??? Sad....

• December 13, 2006

  11:23 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  That has got to be the WORST parody of an illiterate minority JW/jay has posted in a long time.

• December 13, 2006

  11:35 PM

  Liberty writes:

  Yeah they kill the indian's to make them self Legal....??? The immigrant that come here now try to survive life, not all of them are bad/ criminal. What ever your comment is Tankredo!!! I dont know if I spell your name correct, i read about how you can come to this country, same on you ....

• December 14, 2006

  12:07 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  YOU HAVE TO COME TO THIS COUNTRY LEGALY....HUAHAHA HAHA HAHA.... 98% PEOPLE THAT CLAIMS THEY ARE CITIZEN ... REMEMBER HISTORY WHEN YOU GREAT GREAT GRAND PARENT KILLING THE INDIAN'S TO MAKE THEM SELF AND THE NEXT GENERATION LEGAL... KILLING ??? ... "YOU ARE NOT BETTER THEN THEM, AND THEY ARE NOT BETTER THAN YOU". IF YOU OPEN YOUR EYES AND UNDERSTOOD HISTORY

• December 14, 2006

  1:49 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  So... guess what Civilized Anarchist Arnie.... Nobodies Legal, is just about who comes first and who first make-up is just about timing and lying....

• December 14, 2006

  5:59 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Guess what 1:49, you are wrong. Sucks to be you doesn't it? We the people make the laws, we the people should enforce them. For too long, people have gotten away with 'illegal' immigration. We the people welcome 'legal' immigration.

  Get legal, contribute to society.

• December 14, 2006

  6:25 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  American Indians have tried to coin the term 'Native Americans". This white man and his family are Native Americans too, and I never hesitate to let people know. Oh by the way , this white Native American and his people demand that we get the remains of our ancestor Kennewick man from the Indians. Remember him? It is rumored that he was found to be caucasian and predates any American Indian found in the US. It was hushed up. Were can I get my casino license app?

• December 14, 2006

  6:34 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  illegal aliens do have an impact on our health and school systems. Our schools are crowded enough without packing in the non-English speaking illegals. And when the illegals get their healthcare for free, that definitely has an impact. Hospitals are closing down. Open your eyes, nothing is free - we pay for it.

• December 14, 2006

  6:49 AM

  This is only one roach of a problem writes:

  Musgrave and the rest of the politicians talking about enforcing the law? LOL

  What about cooked Wmds? outing Valerie Plame? Page boy Scandals? What about Abu Ghraib?
  For Sure there are serious laws broken there, even some international laws. Whats going on at Guantanamo?

  Geeze. This is one of many BIG problems. All you republican voters have serious credibility issues. LOL
  Musgrave is a joke. She should go back to crying about the fudgepackers.

• December 14, 2006

  6:57 AM

  susan richards writes:

  Identity theft is a felon. But, we have a 2 tiered system in Denver. Illegal means free health care, food stamps, victimhood, and no jail time for DUI or other crimes. For citizens this means work to support health care and jails for illegals. BTW Swift used to pay $18 per hour to citizens, but then fired all and hired illegals for less. Vete mohados!

• December 14, 2006

  7:12 AM

  Sick to Death of these Illegals writes:

  Native Americans were not here first. There is one post that has got it somewhat correct. They migrated over the Bering Strait.
  That's a theroy but does anyone know who was really here first?
  Nope.
  I can say only t his:
  The RMN has a photo of a wailing illegal and in her hand is what?
  A cell phone. I can't afford a cell phone!
  I would love to see the RMN one damn story of the victums of gangs and identiy theft.
  I read now I have to keep watch over my credit because if I don't I'm an "Idiot".
  Sorry, I would rather spend my time working to deport your sorry ass out of this Country.
  YOU ARE ILLEGAL.
  I don't know who posted it but yeah, the damn economy will not falter without you criminals. It will adjust. Legals wages will go up and the cost of food will go up.
  Who cares?
  The corporations do.
  All you white folks out there:
  These people are seeing there meal-ticket being taken away and they are very angry.
  Apply for you CCW and learn to use what every you carry.
  You are going to need it.

• December 14, 2006

  8:04 AM

  Ronald Reagan writes:

  These raids are a smoke screen so now these large corporations can say, "See, we need immigration reform", aka amnesty for illegal aliens. The next step after that is to abolish all borders and start a North American Union, bye bye United States Of America. The conspiracy started with NAFTA.This may be a viable option if only Canada and the US joined. Mexico should not even be a consideration, for obvious reasons. Is race a factor? We all know damn well it is. Include a plethora of other considerations about Mexico, which are almost exclusively negative.

• December 14, 2006

  8:09 AM

  JW writes:

  ""Ill admit the amnesty" [reference supporting it] How on earth can you say that? I can understand a legal Guest Worker program, whereby the obvious demand is met by those following the law who are not interested in becoming citizens. But for amnesty-"

  Fiesty,

  I was talking about the guest worker program. Who ever it was posting said I wanted amnesty. IE they were calling the guest worker program amnesty, so I just went with it. I am not supporting just giving them a free ticket to American citizenship. The guest worker program is the only one Ive seen that makes any sense.

• December 14, 2006

  8:41 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  JW, a guy who crys himself to sleep every night thinks he has the answers. Funny thing is nothing makes sense unless its a liberal proposition. Douchebag

• December 14, 2006

  8:51 AM

  Reverse Racist and Proud of IT writes:

  6:25 How SAD that you have NO real damn identity! So now you're going to hide behind white Native America.
  NUNCA...neverrrrrrrrr...If your white your white. That's funny. A white Native American and the true NATIVE AMERICANS are indians.
  You're on some serious meth.
  Get a life...oh it's okay...You don't have to be a shame to be straight up Euro trash we're all in this melting pot TOGETHER!!!

• December 14, 2006

  8:59 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  It is very, very entertaining watching you uneducated right wing nuts work yourselves in to a frenzy over a publicity stunt designed to make those with no understanding of economics think progress is being made. Fantastic. Keep up the mindless fight, lemmings.

• December 14, 2006

  9:03 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  The United States has EVERY right to say who does or does not cross its borders. Period.

  By the way, this is the year 2006. And this is the REALITY of NOW. The land belongs to those who OWN IT NOW!

• December 14, 2006

  9:03 AM

  American writes:

  The "Guest Worker Program" is another big corporation, special interest, ethnic identity group collusive scam from the word go. We need control of our borders first and foremost. Until this superpower can have control over it's borders, why would we even entertain any such nonsense as amnesty aka GWP. We have immigration and workplace laws in place now and if they were enforced
  non-capriciously and had any semblance of consistency, we would not have this problem. Just refer to 1986's "Never Again" amnesty. When you strip away all the fluff and semantics GWP amounts to the same thing, and will equal the same thing only geometrically amplified. I predict at minimal, violent civil unrest if this country doesn't control it's borders. So, excuse me, I need to start my Chinese lessons.

• December 14, 2006

  9:07 AM

  C Nidey writes:

  When you hire columnist like Mike Littwin I can see the need for a new newspaper in Denver that will not knock Federal State and City police for doing their job.

• December 14, 2006

  9:09 AM

  Mike writes:

  Ok, the United States is a country with a government based upon laws. When one breaks those laws, they are punished. If you come to this country legally, then welcome, we are glad to have you here. If you jumped over a fence or waided through a river illegally to live in the US as an illegal alien, then you are here illegally and not welcome. Since you are here illegally, you are not a citizen regardless of how long you have been here. You have no rights regardless of where you work or what you own or where you live, and you most of all have no right to be in this country.

• December 14, 2006

  9:12 AM

  Phil Collins writes:

  It's no fun, being an illegal alien.

• December 14, 2006

  9:28 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  8:59 says:

  "It is very, very entertaining watching you uneducated right wing nuts work yourselves in to a frenzy over a publicity stunt designed to make those with no understanding of economics think progress is being made. Fantastic. Keep up the mindless fight, lemmings."

  Care to throw in your thoughts on econmics? Or did you get your eductaion watching "Mad Money?"
  Shut up or put up.

  ICE: If you are reading this blog here are some more leads for you:
  Longmont:
  Main Street Car Wash'
  Longmont Foods!!!
  LampLighter Dry Cleaners.
  Go for it!!
  

• December 14, 2006

  9:34 AM

  Mike Littwin writes:

  Liberalism means never having to take responsibilty.

• December 14, 2006

  9:41 AM

  David Hakala writes:

  Littwin misspoke: "The other 95 percent were your standard, garden-variety - and often garden-tending - illegal immigrants..."

  We still don't know how many of the vanished are illegal immigrants; how many simply left their documents at home for safekeeping; or how many were carted off to the star chamber just because an ICE agent chose not to accept the valid documentation presented.

  I hope everyone realizes that the last two possibilities can happen to any of us.

• December 14, 2006

  9:55 AM

  Patriot writes:

  David Hakala

  You are wrong.. the last two scenarios would not happen to white people.

• December 14, 2006

  10:02 AM

  David Hakala writes:

  ICE's claims are preposterous. The government is supposed to help employers discover and reject improperly documented workers. That's the purported purpose of the Social Security Number verification database.

  ICE notified Swift that there were questions about some of Swift's employees. Swift asked the questions of the employees, and a whole bunch of presumably illegal employees left Swift. That's exactly what's supposed to happen - not indiscriminate raids that terrorize thousands of innocent people along with the guilty.

  We can't possibly take seriously the feds' claims to be serious about catching ID thieves. The SSN database doesn't reveal whether a SSN number is being used by multiple persons of different names, or whether it's being used in multiple places under suspicious circumstances, i. e., a meatpacker in Greeley is simultaneously a bookkeeper in Houston. Was this software dreamed up by the Denver Election Commission and cobbled together by a Sequoia Voting Systems intern?

  The Swift raids were an ill-conceived publicity stunt, nothing more. They will spawn lawsuits and valid defenses that will further clog our court system for years to come. The net effect will be to allow more illegals to remain in the U. S. and employed even longer.

  Way to go, President Antichrist!

• December 14, 2006

  10:02 AM

  JW writes:

  "Liberalism means never having to take responsibilty."

  Conservativism means being afraid of change you cannot stop, but stupidly attempt to anyway.

  
  I get so sick of this. Lean too far either left or right and you enter nutjob land. The center is where sane people live.

  "Care to throw in your thoughts on econmics? Or did you get your eductaion watching "Mad Money?"
  Shut up or put up."

  Why should he have to when you dont? Its all "Illegals are bad for the economy. Common sense tells you this!" Huh. Really? Why have I read PhD economists that say we simply do not have the info, because Illegals and the people who hire them dont report, to make rational decisions? Maybe YOU should quit thinking reading the paper is research, and DO SOME!

  There is a position that refutes EVERY SINGLE PRINCIPLE of the anti-illegal movement. There simply is not enough info to make good decisions on this. Its all emotion.

  This is why I support the GWP. It doenst make any radical changes that could screw the economy, it adds illegals to the tax base, and it would allow us to actually get the data we need to figure out if this is a real problem, or just a bunch of psychos hating mexicans.

  Now, go ahead and flame.

• December 14, 2006

  10:04 AM

  David Hakala writes:

  "the last two scenarios would not happen to white people."

  O, yes, they would, if the white people dared to oppose President Antichrist.

• December 14, 2006

  10:12 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Question for Hakala -
  You have never claimed to be a Christian. You seem to detest religion in any form. Yet, you repeated refer to Bush as President Antichrist. Using the term Antichrist validates Christanity as a religion. Why use a term from a religion you don't believe in?

  Care to enlighten us?

• December 14, 2006

  10:15 AM

  Julia writes:

  It's good to see the illegal aliens showing their true colors. Protesting being arrested for committing crimes. Maybe everyone in jail for commiting ID theft should be let out because it's Christmas. Maybe all parents should be let out of jail for their children's sake, so they won't be separated. The illegal aliens don't care who they hurt with their illegal activity, including their own children and families. They just get upset when they get caught. Why shouldn't they be made to suffer the consequences of their own actions, just like other criminals.

• December 14, 2006

  10:18 AM

  jay writes:

  Illegal immigration is obviously an issue. The guest worker program is the most economically responsible solution to date. The problem is that SOME of the right wing nuts don't want economically responsible solutions, they want those damn mexicans out of their country. I am glad that the majority of the country strongly supports a guest worker program. It is only a matter of time before it becomes a reality....after which we can start to address the real reasons our hospital, school and social service systems are in such bad shape.

• December 14, 2006

  10:18 AM

  gwats writes:

  Let's have one Raid once a week un-announced until the Government gets off it's ass and passes some serious Legislation to punish the employers who skirt the law by hiring these people. Once the money dries up in a meaningful way, the problem will take care of itself.

• December 14, 2006

  10:18 AM

  David Hakala writes:

  "Hakala misses yet another point in asking Hogar exactly WHICH Swift managers "were forging or passing on stolen IDs"?

  "Due to the passage of Sarbanes Oxley accounting reform, senior executives are now required to personally attest to the validity of financial statements. This means that if wages are paid to an illegal, and the company executives knew they were working illegally, then they have effectively committed perjury."

  My point is that Hogar was stating as fact that Swift managers knew about illegal hires, in the absences of any evidence to support that claim.

  And your point is what, bogus CPA? I wouldn't hire you to balance my kid's piggy bank.

  1. You skirt my question: which Swift managers knew they had illegal workers on the payroll?

  2. Sarbanes-Oxley concerns "validity of financial statements", not validity of citizenship documentation. Wages paid must be reported accurately; the citizenship status of the payees is beyond S-B's purview.

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbanes-Oxley_Act#Provisions

• December 14, 2006

  10:23 AM

  gwats writes:

  Let's have one Raid once a week un-announced until the Government gets off it's ass and passes some serious Legislation to punish the employers who skirt the law by hiring these people. Once the money dries up in a meaningful way, the problem will take care of itself.

• December 14, 2006

  10:30 AM

  Felipe Calderone writes:

  "The majority of the country strongly supports a guest worker program"
  My take is the country strongly opposes the Gwp aka Scamnesty. Yes I do want those damn Mexicans out of the country and the enablers of illegal aliens.

• December 14, 2006

  10:31 AM

  trouble maker writes:

  Everyone who had there ID stolen needs to demand from the company,

  There back pay. If the company says you worked there than they owe you the money.

• December 14, 2006

  10:35 AM

  trouble maker writes:

  "A woman using Caraveo's name "took a $3,000 loan from a credit union" (from artical)

  This lady needs to go after the credit union. I think tha manager took the money.

  Go after the company involved!

• December 14, 2006

  10:50 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  We have had 6 years of lunatic rambling and opposition to "president antichrist" you douche Hakala. name one person who has been imprisoned for it moron? Fat and paranoid is no way to go thru life, clearly you already have a f*cked up kid, so why not quit with the moronic rambling

• December 14, 2006

  10:50 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  OKay Mike, so we are in agreement.
  If you came on a boat, and are a Euro anchor offspring...You are NOT welcomed here.
  What's more we never wanted you here. Your forefathers broke international laws in an unjusticied war against Mexico. Hey history buffs...READ YOUR HISTORY...So we might ask you are the real criminals? Unlike us so called illegals...Who come here to work...You came to kill, steal and destroy. Murderers...You are the true FELONS. Ain't it something how things could just get so twisted in your all minds????????????
  Your biggest crime is HATRED!!!

• December 14, 2006

  10:52 AM

  jay writes:

  Mr. Calderone,
  Your personal take aside, I find that bigots are often surprised when confronted with the fact that the majority of their fellow countrymen simply don't share their antiquated views on race.

  As far as the issue of the public support for a guest worker program is concerned...lucky for us, scientific polling by reputable organizations has been done on the matter and we can look at the results objectively without the hinderance of personal politics.

  CBS News Poll. May 16-17, 2006. N=636 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4 (for all adults).

  "Would you favor or oppose allowing illegal immigrants who have done the following to stay and work in the United States: paid a fine, been in the U.S. for at least five years, paid any back taxes they owe, can speak English, and have no criminal record?"

  Favor 77%
  Oppose 19%
  Unsure 4%

  CNN Poll conducted by Opinion Research Corporation. May 16-17, 2006. N=1,022 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

  "Would you favor creating a program that would allow illegal immigrants already living in the United States for a number of years to stay in this country and apply for U.S. citizenship if they had a job and paid a fine"

  Favor 79%
  Oppose 18%
  Unsure 3%

  CBS News/New York Times Poll. May 4-8, 2006. N=1,241 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults).

  "If you had to choose, what do you think should happen to most illegal immigrants who have lived and worked in the United States for at least two years? They should be given a chance to keep their jobs and eventually apply for legal status. OR, They should be deported back to their native country."

  Chance to
  Keep Jobs 61%
  Deported 35%
  Unsure 4%

  Los Angeles Times/Bloomberg Poll. June 24-27, 2006. N=1,321 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

  "One proposal would allow undocumented immigrants who have been living and working in the United States for a number of years, and who do not have a criminal record, to start on a path to citizenship by registering that they are in the country, paying a fine, getting fingerprinted, and learning English, among other requirements. Do you support or oppose this, or haven't you heard enough about it to say?"

  Support 67%
  Oppose 18%
  Haven't Heard 12%
  Unsure 3%

  (Same poll)
  "If a candidate in your congressional district supported a guest worker program for illegal immigrants with a path to legal citizenship, would you be more likely to vote for that candidate, or less likely, or wouldn't it make a difference in how you would vote one way or another?"

  More Likely 28%
  Less Likely 23%
  No Difference 44%
  Unsure 5%

  NBC News/Wall Street Journal Poll conducted by the polling organizations of Peter Hart (D) and Bill McInturff (R). June 9-12, 2006. N=1,002 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.1 (for all adults).

  "When it comes to the immigration bill, the Senate and the House of Representatives (Before the Republican lost both of course) disagree with one another about what should be done on the issue of illegal immigration.

  "Many in the House of Representatives favor strengthening security at the borders, including building a seven-hundred-mile fence along the border with Mexico to help keep illegal immigrants from entering the United States, and they favor deporting immigrants who are already in the United States illegally.

  "Many in the Senate favor strengthening security at the borders, including building a three-hundred-and-seventy-mile fence along the border with Mexico to help keep illegal immigrants from entering the United States, and they favor a guest worker program to allow illegal immigrants who have jobs and who have been here for more than two years to remain in the United States.

  "Which of these approaches would you prefer?"

  House
  Approach 33%

  Senate
  Approach 50%

  Neither (vol.) 14%

  Unsure 3%

  
  

• December 14, 2006

  10:54 AM

  JW writes:

  "Do you support or oppose creation of a guest worker program that would allow illegal immigrants to register for temporary legal status and employment?"
  
  .
  
  Support Oppose Unsure
  % % %
  ALL adults
  65 32 3
  Republicans
  63 34 3
  Democrats
  67 30 4
  Independents
  66 31 4

  
  from http://www.pollingreport.com/immigration.htm

  "My take is the country strongly opposes the Gwp aka Scamnesty."

  Well then, your take is...wrong. What else do you think your "take" is wrong about?

  Jesus, this took about six seconds to search. Dont you people EVER wonder what reality is? Or is it all just "whatever" you think?

  "I think, therefore I must be right."

• December 14, 2006

  11:01 AM

  Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

  David Hakala

  My post yesterday, (sorry for the delay, but as I have stated previously my blogging is being infringed with more and more by work and skiing.) was meant to identify the three groups of offenders involved.

  1. I am confident that there were Swift managers who were either complicit or simply ignored the evidence of forged or stolen identities.

  2. The major criminals were those who stole or forged IDs.

  3. Those who entered the country illegally and then made illegal purchase of stolen or forged IDs and lived a false life.

  All three groups should be tried based on the available evidence and punished to the full extent of the law.

• December 14, 2006

  11:02 AM

  Jada writes:

  Read the related article, With Tears Comes Anger, Defiance. Its very enlightening. "One man warned of a revolt" Apparently "they are going to explode...it's only natural to fight back". Proof they do not respect our laws whatsoever and their solution is going to be to "fight back". Wake up. It's just going to get worse and worse, unless they get their way cause they apparently aren't interested in obeying the laws of this country.

• December 14, 2006

  11:07 AM

  Glenda writes:

  I understand wanting to come to the US to make a better life for yourself but it has to be LEGALLY. I stayed in Mexico for 6 months in the mid 80's...it's not a great place. If you had indoor plumbing, you were extemely lucky.

  However, if you are sending money home to purchase land and build a home...stay there and do it.

  Don't take our money to enrich your country. Don't steal our information...our credit is damaged, the IRS goes after us for money we didn't earn because someone is claiming 10 dependants so no taxes are taken out but the income shows up on our SS numbers.
  You are draining our Federal and States of money for medical/food stamps/welfare, our schools because we have to have ESL classes and gang banging for land that you are not legally entitled to.

  You have the same opportunities in your Country...you have the right to vote, stand up and say enough-which is what our ancestors did during the Revolutionary War. Many people say that part of the US was part of Mexico...that is past tense...if you had wanted it that badly in the past...you'd have worked harder to keep it.

  We have our own issues to deal with; homelessness, poverty, abuse. It's time we get out of everyone's business (and I do mean EVERYONE'S) and start taking care of this Country and the LEGAL Americans.
  

• December 14, 2006

  11:10 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  JUST GET RID OF THEM ALL.

  I'm tired of saying "una hamburguesa con queso"

  at Mickey D's

  Build an electric fence if thats what it takes.

• December 14, 2006

  11:14 AM

  gerri writes:

  I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE WHITE PEOPLE GO OUT AND WORK THE FIELDS FOR THE PENNIES THESE IMMIGRANTS WORK FOR AND IN THESE MEAT PACKING COMP. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE JOBS & YOU WHITE PEOPLE DONT BECAUSE THEY ARE HARD WORKERS NOT HARDLY WORKING WHITE PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THEM IS WHY YOU PEOPLE HAVE VEG. & MEAT AT DINNER NO THANKS TO YOU GUYS. SO MY ADVICE TO ALL YOU UNGRATEFUL PEOPLE PUTTING THE IMMIGRANTS DOWN BETTER START PLANTING GARDENS TO PICK YOUR OWN.....CROPS.......

• December 14, 2006

  11:18 AM

  Ebenezer Scrooge and proud of it writes:

  Illegals absolutely are not taking jobs that legal people won`t take, what they have done is bring down the wages to such a low that legal people who have to pay their own hospital bills (by the way illegals are destroying as well) can`t afford to work for a low wage that illegals who get assistance and live with several families under one roof can . It didn`t used to be that way. The jobs paid more. Illegals are destroying our country and we have the Mike Littwins of the world that want them to keep coming so he can keep his bathroom clean. (now that is lazy). We need to fine the hell out of businesses that hire illegals for a start, put the armed national guard on the border for training. This will give us time to find the illegals, find out who they are. Then we could work out a guest worker program for the ones that want to earn legal citizenship and get rid of the criminals or lock them up at the cost of fines imposed on companies that hired them in the first place . I have a hard enough time feeding my family and keeping them insured and yet I also have to pay for people who come here illegally (which is a crime). They also bring in diseases and drugs and yes poverty follows them. So anyware where illegals have taken over look like 3rd world countries just Like Tancredo says and he is totally 100% correct. When a represenitive has to cancel a speech because of bomb threats in an American town, I would call that a third world country. I feel bad about splitting families but I have absolutely no sympathy for them because they already committed a crime by coming here illegally, in other words they shouldn`t have been here in the first place. Now take a look at what they bring with them, poverty, violent rapes, murders, draggings, smugglers, drugs, diseases, closing of hospitals, closings of schools, the hard ships on schools that stay open, the jobs they take away from legal citizens. Just read thru some of these postings and you will see that the ones opposed to what ICE did can`t even write a legible sentence in thier own language let alone English. They are destroying our country. Get them the hell out of here.

• December 14, 2006

  11:41 AM

  fiesty writes:

  Not Ignorant-

  Poverty is not an excuse to break the law and hurt others in the process, and do whatever you want to. Period. I am so sick of this as an excuse.

  And you have no business stating that we "don't understand what true poverty is". Some of us most certainly do. I grew up so poor that I didn't eat for days and days at a time. I came close to death several times due to malnutrition. I didn't have shoes, and despite my crying it hurt, the school forced me to wear a pair of too small hand me downs during school hours. (As a result, my toes aren't straight- they are at almost a 45 degree angle.) I walked to and from school during Michigan snow barefoot with no jacket in ragged clothes. I slept with cockroaches in a condemned, deserted trailer. There was many a night my mom stayed up crying, guilty she couldn't provide basic things like food to us.

  But you know something? Neither my mother, brother or I ever contemplated robbing a store, a bank, or stealing from others. Eventually, in my teenage years, even though things had gotten better with my bro and I finding jobs where we were paid in food, my dad managed to track us down and regain custody. When I turned 18, I decided to do something honorable and joined the military. As a result of active duty, I ended up severely injured, in a wheelchair by 27. Do I use that as an excuse that I am "entitled" to whatever I want? Absolutley not.

  So don't play the poverty card. We can be compassionate and sympathetic to their plight, but that does NOT mean we should support or condone ANY action taken as a result.

  Try again. Buh-bye, to borrow a phrase from earlier.

• December 14, 2006

  11:50 AM

  RR writes:

  Glenda...And your take on your government taking your money to build wars in the Middle East is what?
  So what if I take MY money I earned with the sweat of my brow to build me a house in Mexico...What do you care? You're stupid!!!
  Have you any damn idea how many gringos have taken your money overseas to build their empires (vacation homes). Think before you speak...You're dumb. This fight is not about money or jobs or healthcare. It's about HATE. Now I'd like to know how you think we can go about educating our young. OR should we just turn this into a third world fight and throw us into a civil war. And teach them react to hate with violent. People are not thinking here.

  Stop NOW because you are creating and provoking a monster you will not be able to contain.

• December 14, 2006

  12:17 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Glenda...And your take on your government taking your money to build wars in the Middle East is what?
  So what if I take MY money I earned with the sweat of my brow to build me a house in Mexico...What do you care? You're stupid!!!
  Have you any damn idea how many gringos have taken your money overseas to build their empires (vacation homes). Think before you speak...You're dumb. This fight is not about money or jobs or healthcare. It's about HATE. Now I'd like to know how you think we can go about educating our young. OR should we just turn this into a third world fight and throw us into a civil war. And teach them react to hate with violent. People are not thinking here.

  Stop NOW because you are creating and provoking a monster you will not be able to contain.

• December 14, 2006

  12:19 PM

  happyascanb writes:

  thank you ice its about time.you know these people want to be here so bad i say send them to iraq and serve over there ,give them 2,3 years of active duty and let our troops come home. let them show how much they want to be here.i am so sick and tired of thses people breaking the laws here and getting away with it rape,murder, robbery.

• December 14, 2006

  12:25 PM

  X writes:

  No one wins... The facts are people are poor to the south of us and will alway's look to the north to help themselves at a better way of life. The world itself is in trouble, we may be looking to go south before to long.

• December 14, 2006

  12:34 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Yawn, every mexican is threatening revolt, starting a monster we cant contain, etc, etc. I guess a preemptive attack on the hispanics is warranted since they keep threatening to attack us. We can start by nuking greely, 44th south Evans and Inca west to Sheridan. That would be a good start. Hopefully a bunch of yuppy liberals get caught up in the mix.

• December 14, 2006

  12:36 PM

  BornInTheUSA writes:

  Ilegal is illegal. Fine all the companies that hire them and throw their officials in jail. Then deport all of the illegals and build the fence congress authorized. They can then apply legally for their visa. That will cut down on crime and lower the tax burden on the taxpayers and remove their incentive to come here illegally.

  If they have commited other crimes, throw them in the slammer and then deport them after they have served their time.

  The myth that they only perform jobs real Americans won't do is just that, a myth. I flipped burgers early in my career. They are stealing jobs not just from adults, but from our kids as well. They don't have the courage to overthrow their own government so they will destroy our country instead.

  Oh yeah, and deport all of the damn liberals and bleeding hearts that want to give them amnesty too. Send them to Siberia where they can cuddle with one another and keep each other warm

• December 14, 2006

  12:44 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Ok lets say the "activists" want to take back their "stolen" land. When they pull up to a Colorado ranch house owned by whites and say: "We are here to take back our land! You have to leave!" What will happen?

  A. The rancher will say OK sure thing and just leave.

  B. The rancher will stage a protest downtown.

  C. They will blow the "land reclaimer" in half with a shotgun.

  Take your time.

• December 14, 2006

  12:47 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "I am confident that there were Swift managers who were either complicit or simply ignored the evidence of forged or stolen identities."

  Please tell me that you have never served on a jury, Hogar.

  Your three categories of criminals - ID thieves or forgers, illegal workers, and accessories to those crimes - do not encompass all of those who were rousted on Tuesday. Not by a long shot.

  It remains to be seen how many of the vanished were taken wrongfully. The RMN has reported at least one - a mother whose daughter rushed to the scene with presumably valid documentation (or why bring it?) only to find Mama already hauled away.

  Do you understand what that means? If you cannot produce documentation acceptable to any law enforcement agent on the spot, you are subject to disappearing.

  If that's acceptable, then the Constitution is truly doomed.

• December 14, 2006

  12:48 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  There is no other race that claims to be so proud of their heritage that they leave for another country and demand everyone else learn their customs. Islam is close, but its only the mexicans. If they were so great, mexico wouldn't be in shambles. Why dont you beaners go home and start your revolt so you can continue your "proud" traditions of knocking up 13 yr old girls, dealing dope, and blaring crappy music out of flea market shit speakers. I am POSITIVE you can recreate federal blvd in your native countrys. Hell, anyone could recreate that dump by simply refusing to fix anything on their own streets...

• December 14, 2006

  12:49 PM

  Si se puede! writes:

  They couldn't be happy with just pressing #2 for spanish, so they went and staged a protest. Now Immigration is front and center on the radar screen.

  As to "activists", no concerns there. If these people could organize anything, they would have done it in their own country, instead of letting it become the sh*thole it is today.

  ICE will now be relegated to the role of national sanitation department, taking out the trash on a national level.

• December 14, 2006

  12:50 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  The bleeding hearts are the most disgusting, hypocritical, self serving and intolerant people there are in regards to this issue. Guest Worker Program? Yea right. What would make you think these illegals would follow any part of that program that they didn't like. Sensenbrenner 4437 all the way. It's long overdue to flush the brown down.

• December 14, 2006

  12:52 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Hakala is moron. The girl you refer to turned into forged documents, hence why Mama is gone you moronic douche. Again, fat and paranoid is no way to go thru life. Can one adult male really be this pathetic?? well look at his loser kid.......the answer is apparently yes. I thought the consitution was saved now the democrats came to the rescue?>????? idiot

• December 14, 2006

  12:52 PM

  JW writes:

  Nuke liberals. Deport liberals. So American its like apple pie...only with radioactivity.

  Lets see, when the conservative idiot comes to my door attempting to deport me becaues he thinks anything left of FAR RIGHT is liberal I will....

  A) Say ok and jump in the truck.

  B) Go downtown and protest.

  C) Liberally pepper his stupid ass with lead from my Sig .40cal.

  Take your time...

• December 14, 2006

  12:55 PM

  Jim writes:

  If people break the law yhey must pay. SWIFT must pay or be put out of business!!!!

• December 14, 2006

  12:55 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Hey JW, try to be orginal next time. Or did you learn the Ward Churchill method of writing?

  Stupid kids...

• December 14, 2006

  12:57 PM

  JW writes:

  "Hakala is moron. The girl you refer to turned into forged documents"

  Yea! Youre a moron David! That girl turned into forged documents!

  
  Which I have to say, must have scared the hell out of the ICE agent. If Migrant workers are turning into forged documents, its no wonder everyone is so afraid of them. ITS MAGIC!

  For fucks sake.

• December 14, 2006

  12:58 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  OH please JW you're to stupid to operate a gun. I am also positive the red neck hitler like republicans will be armed when they come to kill your dumbass. No one said anything about deporting you loons, just killing and raping your wives while your popus urban villages burn, BURN I SAY

• December 14, 2006

  1:00 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  In the world according to liberal dipshits like Hakala and JW, its okay to forge your way thru life as long as you are not a christian, or republican!!! Same tired douche bag material. Its not a crime till the liberal says its a crime!!!! Forgery for all, unless you are white! Then you better play by the rules and welcome their every changing views on diversity and "culture"

• December 14, 2006

  1:04 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "You have never claimed to be a Christian. You seem to detest religion in any form. Yet, you repeated refer to Bush as President Antichrist. Using the term Antichrist validates Christanity as a religion. Why use a term from a religion you don't believe in?"

  Speaking of a myth only acknowledges the myth's existence. The belief that uttering a thing's name makes it real is pagan superstition, a heresy that should shame you. (This superstition also inspires suppression of unpopular speech such as Holocaust denial or "the Emperor is naked", but that's a secular debate.)

  I use the term "President Antichrist" to convey to his supporters the depth of his depraved danger and my abhorrence of him. I assume that they feel similarly about the Biblical Antichrist whom they claim really does or soon will exist.

  But I could be mistaken at least in part, come to think of it. It's entirely plausible that some of President Antichrist's supporters are faking their beliefs, and that others truly believe in but welcome the coming of the Antichrist.

• December 14, 2006

  1:11 PM

  Damon writes:

  So the arguement for not doing the raids is that it damaged so many families? Well what about the poor family that cannot get financing on there home because someone sold dads SS# to an illegal immigrant that is being used by 15 different people, and they have completely fucked his credit. I truly feel for the people that were wrongfully taken by ICE even though they were documented workers, but for those that are truly here illegally....good riddance to bad rubbish!! Instead of being angry at ICE for simply performing it's sworn duty, you should ask those people that are here illegally(breaking the law) why they chose the path they did. If you are in the country illegally then don't be suprised when you wake up back in Mexico and you have NO LEGAL RIGHT to complain about it.

• December 14, 2006

  1:14 PM

  Can't we all just get along? writes:

  JW, 12:52 I would go with C. You will need the gun when your illegal alien friends move into your house without permission and take all of your stuff and then demand more until you are their little bitch. Will you grant them a Guest-Guest program?

• December 14, 2006

  1:19 PM

  Typical Liberal writes:

  YOu damn right wingers, quit using your heads and think with your hearts. Its all about emotions, and stuff that make us feel good to rid us of this white guilt. Us liberals have been trained to turn our brains off and open our hearts man, think about the families, not your family, their families. Of course no liberal is giving up their job or home for the beaners, but our hearts tell us everyone else should, but us. Dont you get it man? Arghh, you just need to go to college

• December 14, 2006

  1:27 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Cant we all just get along, JW wouldnt give up his house, he would give them directions to some republicans house and demand that the repubilican be more compassionate in assisting the beaner, JW did his part by directing them to the republicans house and money. This is why liberals are smarter then you!!!!!

• December 14, 2006

  1:36 PM

  John writes:

  The immigrants from Mexico who come to the US are looking for a better life and want to work. They are not criminals! They way we treat them is both embarrassing and illogical. They most often do work that Americans are unwilling to do and for a cheaper wage. They are an important contributor to our economy.

  If the US had a workable guest worker like simply a larger quota on the H2B (temporary workers) program or a better long term resident program, and a better policy for permanent residents, it would put the illegal immigration problem mostly to rest. It would save thousands of dollars now being spend by ICE and other agencies that are basically ineffective at enforcing the laws as they are now. It would allow companies and industries that NEED the labor force a more available and stable work force. The taxes then collected (as in most cases they are now anyway) would add to the US treasury and not cost it. Ask a landscaper or someone in the construction trade, or the meat packing industry or a farmer just how much they rely on the hard work of the immigrants. Those are committing serious crime like identity theft and felonies should be charged and or deported. But that is a small minority of the Mexican works in the US. Those who are providing fraudulent documents and stealing SSN’s are the real criminals and I’d bet most of those are US citizens, how many of these people get arrested?

  Let take a real look at what is good for the country. lets show some compassion for children and families, and lets stop being bigots and dispensing hatered!
  

• December 14, 2006

  1:39 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  John - Meth is bad for you, and I think you should stop using it.

• December 14, 2006

  1:40 PM

  JW writes:

  "This is why liberals are smarter then you!!!!!"

  This should read;

  This is why centrists are smarter than you!!!!!!

  "Of course no liberal is giving up their job or home for the beaners"

  Of course we dont give them our jobs. We have college educations. Immigrants cant DO our jobs, let alone steal them.

  "You will need the gun when your illegal alien friends move into your house without permission and take all of your stuff and then demand more until you are their little bitch. Will you grant them a Guest-Guest program?'

  Please. They only come over to do my drywall, and paint.

  "I am also positive the red neck hitler like republicans will be armed when they come to kill your dumbass."

  Finally, something we can agree on! Liberal or Redneck, Americans like guns!

  But you sissies are still afraid of illegals. Pathetic.

• December 14, 2006

  1:44 PM

  JW writes:

  "And if an employer is going to pay them under the table and skirt the system in the name of compassion, then all of us CITIZENS should be allowed the same option you liberal douche."

  Speaking of a "liberal douche" it seems like you could use one. Right now you just sound like a big stinking pussy.

• December 14, 2006

  1:53 PM

  gr8fuldude writes:

  I agree with Arnie on this one, though he definitely dated himself on yesterday's "Rawhide" reference.

  I think as of 5/1, the entire group crapped in their own messkit.

• December 14, 2006

  1:53 PM

  jay writes:

  Wrong CAA. It is big business (and their lapdogs, the repubicans) that is playing everyone for suckers. They get a huge discount on the cost of labor (with the resulting boost in profit margin) without dealing with the ramifications of an undocumented workforce.

• December 14, 2006

  1:56 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "The courageous heroes on the world scene are not those men and women in poor countries who have the energy, the intelligence, and the skills to escape to a rich country but rather those remaining with their people. Rather than focus on improving conditions for themselves and their families by emigrating, they strive to raise the conditions for whole communities."
  

• December 14, 2006

  1:57 PM

  JW writes:

  "So JW admits, "Liberal Douche" is a form of douche."

  Its the only cure for a big stinking conservative pussy.

• December 14, 2006

  1:59 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  JW,
  You like polls. Here is one from today's Denver Post (online):

  Do you support the federal crackdown on illegal immigrants working at Swift meat packing plants nationwide?

  Yes - 75.5% (871)
  To some Extent - 9% (104)
  No - 14.7% (169)
  Don't Know - 0.8% (9)
  

• December 14, 2006

  2:04 PM

  fiesty writes:

  John,

  Reference your statement, "lets show some compassion for children and families, and lets stop being bigots and dispensing hatered!", pls look at posting from December 13, 2006 07:07 AM and explain why one lawbreaker's family deserves special treatment whereas another's doesn't...

• December 14, 2006

  2:08 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  This brief guide is for those searching for an expedited pathway into the exalted status of Victimhood.

  Becoming a victim --as we all have learned from famous TV stars, prominent politicians; religions, races, and even nations--is an advantageous state of being in many ways, several of which are:

  -You are not responsible for what happened to you
  -You are always morally right
  -You are not accountable to anyone for anything
  -You are forever entitled to sympathy
  -You are always justified in feeling moral indignation for being wronged
  -You never have to be responsible again for anything

  As you can see, these are some heavy-duty privileges; and they are not given to just anyone. This list is not exclusive. There are many benefits of Victimhood; and in our current society, new rewards are continuously being discovered! You, too, may be someone who blazes a new path for future victims!

  The badge of victimhood must be "earned" (ha ha, just kidding!) by one of two methods: (1) Membership in a special "victim" class; or (2) having something bad actually happen to you. Method 1 is definitely is superior in every way since it eliminates the need for something bad to actually happen to you (as long as it once happened to someone like you--you are set); thus this method is preferable and automatically puts all sorts of celebrities and famous people on your side. They will not be concerned if you are a good person or a bad person; just as long as you meet the basic victimhood criteria.

  You are probably tempted to ask what that basic criteria is for most famous people to support you? Here is a tip (keep it under your hat): most famous people--especially undeserving famous people (i.e., people who are famous not for any particular talent they have, but because they might have a good publicist, for example) have an intense need to feel that they are "champions of the oppressed." This relieves them of the pervasive feelings of guilt under which they must function. Hence, all you have to do is to convince them that you are "oppressed" by one of a number of usual "oppressors", and you are home free!

  Here is a handy list of possible oppressors that can be used by almost anyone searching for victimhood status:

  - caucasian, heterosexual males
  - Republicans (either male or female)
  - conservatives (either male or female)
  - businessmen or women (commonly referred to as "little eichmanns")
  - capitalists
  - rich people
  - Christians (particularly Republican or conservative)
  - the U.S. Military (all services)
  - Americans (as a general group)
  - Israelis (Jews)

  Note: This list is not exhaustive, but it is a good place to start if you are pursuig victimhood for fun and profit.
  

• December 14, 2006

  2:11 PM

  I can spell and that is a clue. writes:

  I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE WHITE PEOPLE GO OUT AND WORK THE FIELDS FOR THE PENNIES THESE IMMIGRANTS WORK FOR AND IN THESE MEAT PACKING COMP. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE JOBS & YOU WHITE PEOPLE DONT BECAUSE THEY ARE HARD WORKERS NOT “I WOULD LOVE TO SEE THE WHITE PEOPLE GO OUT AND WORK THE FIELDS FOR THE PENNIES THESE IMMIGRANTS WORK FOR AND IN THESE MEAT PACKING COMP. WHY DO YOU THINK THEY HAVE JOBS & YOU WHITE PEOPLE DONT BECAUSE THEY ARE HARD WORKERS NOT HARDLY WORKING WHITE PEOPLE BECAUSE OF THEM IS WHY YOU PEOPLE HAVE VEG. & MEAT AT DINNER NO THANKS TO YOU GUYS. SO MY ADVICE TO ALL YOU UNGRATEFUL PEOPLE PUTTING THE IMMIGRANTS DOWN BETTER START PLANTING GARDENS TO PICK YOUR OWN.....CROPS.......”

  Yeah, right.
  As stated in my earlier post, the laws of economics will wash away the cheap labor. Do you really think all farmers will simply quit?
  Nope, inflation will increase and the Feds will use the open market operations and tighten the money supply and soon the wages and prices will come close to equilibrium.
  The people of Mexico may actually see an opportunity and grow crops there for import into the United States. They could (gasp) even start cleaning up their Country instead of crapping in mine. They are a proud but cowardly people. Almost an oxymoron. Fight your corruption in Mexico.
  Please stop threatening us on this blog:
  “I welll kiel you fooking white people!” You are too busy fighting yourselves for gang territory to put a good fight on to your betters.
  I do have to hand it to you; you sure can use your children as leverage. The power of the press is on your side as well. You will not win because once you finally have the whole damn Country it will be a third-world cess-pool. No more EEOC laws to ensure your promotions because you cannot do it yourselves. No more health care because the hospitals closed down due to un-paid bills from the millions of gunshot wounds. No more huge corporations ensuring you are employed because the purchasing power is not there with all 800 million of you paid under the table since the minimum wage is gone along with the government that backed it.
  Food stamps, welfare, business loans, college loans, all gone.
  I hope I live to see it. Don’t look to Canada, they don’t put up with whitey let alone YOU. I know, I’m trying. I see the spray paint on the fence. Literally.

  JW.
  If you are the liberal dip you claim to be, what are you doing with a handgun? I thought the 2nd Amendment was archaic? You better not get what you wish for because you could not draw down on a banger with a TEC 9. You would be crapping your pants.
  

• December 14, 2006

  2:14 PM

  fiesty writes:

  December 14, 2006 02:08 PM -

  ROFLMAO! However, you do hit on a critical fault right now with Americans in general.

• December 14, 2006

  2:16 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "So the arguement for not doing the raids is that it damaged so many families? "

  No, although such humanitarian considerations do play a recognized role in our justice system when setting bail and sentencing convicts. So they are not to be dismissed.

  The principle that the ICE raids violated is that of minimal intrusion upon the rights of the innocent in pursuit of criminals. It was unnecessary to roust thousands of people in order to apprehend the dozens they had probable cause to arrest. "Hang 'em all and let God sort 'em out" is not permissible in this country.

• December 14, 2006

  2:19 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  The victimhood guide I posted was from here:

  http://drsanity.blogspot.com/2006/12/dr-sanitys-practical-guide-to.html

• December 14, 2006

  2:26 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  -You are not responsible for what happened to you
  -You are always morally right
  -You are not accountable to anyone for anything
  -You are forever entitled to sympathy
  -You are always justified in feeling moral indignation for being wronged
  -You never have to be responsible again for anything

  This sounds like George Bush.

• December 14, 2006

  2:35 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "Do you really think all farmers will simply quit?"

  No, many will be driven out of business involuntarily. Then they will have to take your Wal Mart job from you, or you will have to support them with your taxes.

  "Nope, inflation will increase and the Feds will use the open market operations and tighten the money supply and soon the wages and prices will come close to equilibrium."

  Beneath all that babble lies the fact that prices will increase. Wages will not rise proportionately in markets unaffected by the labor shortage left by an exodus of more than just illegal immigrant workers (some legals will leave out of simple fear). Most of us will spend more of our incomes on food, housing, clothing, and other necessities currently subsidized by artificially depressed wages paid to immigrants. The net result will be less disposable income, which will depress the discretionary portion of the economy.

  If you don't pick lettuce, lay bricks, or sew blue jeans, then you probably work in that expendable portion of the economy... for now.

  "The people of Mexico may actually see an opportunity and grow crops there for import into the United States."

  O, clueless one, read the labels on supermarket food. :-) You'll find that much produce already is "product of Mexico" and other Latin American countries.

  They don't take as much care about E. coli as we do, either.

• December 14, 2006

  2:35 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  I can spell and that is a clue

  LOL. You can spell, but your understanding of economics is a joke.

• December 14, 2006

  2:37 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  2:26, That sounds more like my ex-wife...

• December 14, 2006

  2:39 PM

  Angel writes:

  I can spell -- I believe your assessemnt is correct. Sad but true, as they ruin this country for those already here, they are also ruining it for themselves and all future generations. Look into what's happening in California, it's headed our way.

• December 14, 2006

  2:43 PM

  Ben Franklin writes:

  2:08 That was a well crafted post and ever so true.

• December 14, 2006

  2:43 PM

  JW writes:

  "If you are the liberal dip you claim to be, what are you doing with a handgun? I thought the 2nd Amendment was archaic? You better not get what you wish for because you could not draw down on a banger with a TEC 9. You would be crapping your pants."

  I go along with being labeled a Liberal by these right wing nazis from time to time because compared to them, anyone left of WAY FAR RIGHT is a liberal. Makes things easier. Reality is the "Liberals" you are talking about dont vote for Republicans, and I have been known to do so. Ive noticed the right wing nutjobs on this blog arent too fond of reality though...

  And you may be able to spell, but you damn sure dont know what the definition of liberal is or you wouldnt use it as a bad word.
  As for the banger with a tec9, if Im out and about, I dont carry a gun. I suppose Id just hope they didnt shoot me, but hey, this is why we have POLICE. If hes in my house, best not to come through my bedroom door. Other than that, hes free to steal what he can untill the cops get there. However, for the most part bangers arent illegals, though there are some (forget the name of that south american gang thats getting all the press these days). Anyway, other than trying to sound tough or cool, Im unsure why you brought it up.

• December 14, 2006

  2:44 PM

  JW writes:

  "Look into what's happening in California, it's headed our way."

  God I hope so. Depending on the day, thats the 7th or 6th largest economy in the world. Talk about creating wealth! Those people arent afraid to compete.

• December 14, 2006

  2:51 PM

  Ken writes:

  My family all came here legally why can't yours??? If you are here illegally then you should have no rights what so ever. period, end of sentence!

  Do more raids! Send them all back until they can come here legally.

• December 14, 2006

  2:53 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  BornInTheUSA: "They don't have the courage to overthrow their own government so they will destroy our country instead."

  How ironic. I can just hear Iraqis saying that. :-)

  An anonymous coward who can't even give his sources credit quotes,

  "The courageous heroes on the world scene are not those men and women in poor countries who have the energy, the intelligence, and the skills to escape to a rich country but rather those remaining with their people. Rather than focus on improving conditions for themselves and their families by emigrating, they strive to raise the conditions for whole communities."

  This lofty-sounding sentiment completely ignores the fact (often decried by conservatives) that non-residents in the U. S. send much of their earnings back home where it certainly does improve whole communities.

  Not everyone is an organizer and leader. The rest offer their labor to their people, with considerable sacrifice in terms of loneliness, fear, indignity, and physical risk.

  BTW, anonymous coward, what have you done lately to improve conditions in YOUR community, not just yourself and your family?

• December 14, 2006

  2:57 PM

  fiesty writes:

  "God I hope so. Depending on the day, thats the 7th or 6th largest economy in the world. Talk about creating wealth! "

  So JW, money's everything, no matter how you get it, hmm? I spent four god-awful years in San Pedro and El Segundo CA. We don't want that here in CO!

• December 14, 2006

  2:57 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "My family all came here legally why can't yours??? "

  That's as dumb as saying, "I went through the unnecessary, demeaning, and harmful hazing ritual of a college fraternity, so why shouldn't your kid?"

• December 14, 2006

  2:58 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  December 14, 2006 02:08 PM,

  Your list of “possible oppressors” misses the republican staple. No list of victim hood would be complete without the poor oppressed Conservatives and their “Liberal Media” that is completely owned by corporate wealth but seeming opposes its own interest. Complete horse shit I think you will agree.
  

• December 14, 2006

  2:59 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "I spent four god-awful years in San Pedro and El Segundo CA. We don't want that here in CO!"

  You're right, Fiesty. Please leave.

• December 14, 2006

  2:59 PM

  Born in East LA writes:

  Waasss appenninnngggg?

  Go Raiders!

• December 14, 2006

  3:18 PM

  Nanette writes:

  I am glad something is being done about this immigration problem, it's
  about time ! The Mexican counsel should look at the problems and the
  wrong doing when they take someone's identity, they should be punished for
  the hurt and pain to the American people, They are breaking the law when
  they are trying to enter in the first place and They are messing with
  people lives here! don't they get that, its wrong, I been watching the new
  and reading about it, and all I see and hear is poor poor them and their
  rights, what about the Americans rights? I am an American(Hispanic), and I
  just don't like what these Mexicans are doing ! My 5 year is in an ECE
  program and he is in a class with nothing but Mexican kids, I do get upset
  because the teacher is Mexican and she could hardly speak English, my son
  has a hard time understanding her, basically I don't like the way the
  public schools are changing, my son is being taught in Spanish, he is
  having a hard time learning. I was surprise to see how much the schools
  have changed everything just for these people, its wrong, I see words and
  pictures hanging up in Spanish? Our schools shouldn't be adjust to meet
  their needs? Mexican are making it hard for our kids, so when they are
  talking about their civil rights, What about the Americans civil rights,
  They are doing wrong in the first place being here illegally and actually
  taking someone's identity and hurting that person life. The Mexican Counsel
  should be directing their issues to the Mexican president to help his
  people, create jobs there, create housing there and among other things. I
  am glad ICE is cracking down on this, Mexicans need to understand that the
  American people are not putting up with this anymore and it has to stop
  somehow. This Identity crisis has gotten out of control. I am one that
  supports the ICE crackdown.
  

• December 14, 2006

  3:19 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  You might be able to spell, but you no exactly dick about modern economics.

• December 14, 2006

  3:19 PM

  JW writes:

  "So JW, money's everything, no matter how you get it, hmm?"

  Being able to compete in the global economy is gona take changing some of your mindset. Fact of life, and nothing and noone is gona change it. Besides, you make it sound like Cali is the prostitution capital of the world or something, and I am suggesting that is the best way to compete. Lame misrepresentation girl! Cali business is progressively minded, lean, mean, and able to compete in the global economy. Bitch about the loss of manufacturing jobs to China all you want, they AINT comming back.

  " I spent four god-awful years in San Pedro and El Segundo CA. We don't want that here in CO!"

  No where is perfect. I dont want Colorado Springs here in Colorado...

• December 14, 2006

  3:21 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Nice of Nanette to pretend to be hispanic to try to make a point.

• December 14, 2006

  3:21 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Hakal blathers:"Not everyone is an organizer and leader."

  Add in articulate and your posts prove all three.

• December 14, 2006

  3:29 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  some of the things that I've noticed JW and others say on this topic are that illegals don't take americans jobs because we're college educated, or that their impact on social services isn't a big deal, etc.

  you know, just because YOU don't lose a job to one of them, doesn't mean NOBODY loses jobs to them ... and just because YOU don't use many of the social services that reduce the amount of benefits actual citizens apply for, doesn't mean it isn't happening.

  i know MANY citizens who were in framing, roofing, drywall, landscaping, plumbing apprenticeships, auto painting, etc. who have lost their blue-collar jobs to illegals. i know MANY citizens who have applied for retraining funds, social service benefits for food and home when they were put out of work, who have been turned away because there is no money in the applicable programs for them, but there is separate funding for programs for illegals. real nice.

  for people who most always claim that the more liberal side of the house is the better of the two, and more compassionate, you sure seem willing to ignore (unknowingly or intentionally) our own middle to lower middle class around here..

• December 14, 2006

  3:30 PM

  jay writes:

  If you don't look at the illegal immigration situation from a strictly economic viewpoint...then you're letting your emotions regarding minorities cloud your judgement.

• December 14, 2006

  3:37 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  3:29--Have you seen the unemployment figures lately?

• December 14, 2006

  3:37 PM

  Terry writes:

  Well of course it was. It's about time our government did something about illegals, don't ya' think?
  
  I also think Swift and Co. ought to be "closed" for an amount of time and fined heavily for "firing" 400 employees they "knew" were illegal before the raid.
  
  

• December 14, 2006

  3:37 PM

  Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

  David Hakala,

  My comments were quite speculative, and I would certainly not use that standard on a jury. I was rejected from the one jury that I was called on, as a knew one of the prinicipals in the law suit.

  I did here that the DA had issued the warrants, so I am reasonably confident they had evidence sufficient for the warrants.

  I do not believe the problem is severe enough to call for any erosion in the requirements for evidence and reasonable suspicion.

• December 14, 2006

  3:38 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  You saying that does not make it so.

• December 14, 2006

  3:39 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  3:21 ..... I'm not sure how you infer Nanette to be pretending - but if you are implying that nobody who is Mexican could be against allowing illegal aliens into the country, you would be flat wrong. Of the roughly 25, 26 Mexicans that I work with or live by, almost all of them are against illegal aliens (amusingly, 3 or 4 of them were illegals back in the 80's but now citizens). There are varying reasons for this, but they include that illegals abuse services, take their jobs because they will work for less, cause crime problems in their neighborhoods, have very little respect for many laws such as having auto insurance, and they make life harder on the Hispanic population and give everyone of Hispanic origin a bad name. Not my words, theirs. Maybe there is something to it.

• December 14, 2006

  3:40 PM

  Joe writes:

  David Hakala.

  I appreciated your comment on e-coli. As I recall, the last two large incidents were caused by produce from California, though the difference over who picks it is slim indeed.

• December 14, 2006

  3:43 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  If you actually read about the Swift plant you will find they had a habit of hiring illegal aliens over legal residents. There were legal people lined up for the new jobs as the raid was going on. I could only guess is that it is easier to break other laws when you can put your employees under duress about their immigration status. I also noticed the signing bonus at Swift is just enough to start your paperwork and acquire a green card.

• December 14, 2006

  3:44 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  If you actually read about the Swift plant you will find they had a habit of hiring illegal aliens over legal residents. There were legal people lined up for the new jobs as the raid was going on. I could only guess is that it is easier to break other laws when you can put your employees under duress about their immigration status. I also noticed the signing bonus at Swift is just enough to start your paperwork and acquire a green card.

• December 14, 2006

  3:47 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  3:37 ...... so what?

  are you saying that because unemployment is down that the illegal manner in which these people enter the country and displace others from their jobs is perfectly fine?

  you see, i understand economics pretty well. i have a business degree with an emphasis in economics. i understand that without workers an economy cannot grow. and you seem to think i'm saying not to allow workers from Mexico and other places into the country ... but i'm not. we need a reasonable guest worker program ... no doubt about it .... but the open border, in my opinion, must not be allowed to remain ... how are illicit drugs ever to be gotten under control? how do we know islamic extremists aren't bringing wmd into the country? how do we know how many citizens and non-citizens are in our country? answer = we don't.

• December 14, 2006

  3:55 PM

  JW writes:

  "for people who most always claim that the more liberal side of the house is the better of the two, and more compassionate, you sure seem willing to ignore (unknowingly or intentionally) our own middle to lower middle class around here.."

  Look, the unemployment stats dont tell me that people are out of work. If people arent out of work, then the illegals are filling vacant jobs. Just the way it goes.

  "i know MANY citizens who were in framing, roofing, drywall, landscaping, plumbing apprenticeships, auto painting, etc. who have lost their blue-collar jobs to illegals."

  Are they still unemployed? Did they SUE the guy who fired them and then replaced them with an illegal? They can you know. Hell, you can sue if you are fired without cause and replaced by LEGAL workers.

  " i know MANY citizens who have applied for retraining funds, social service benefits for food and home when they were put out of work, who have been turned away because there is no money in the applicable programs for them, but there is separate funding for programs for illegals. real nice"

  Really? Seperate funding for Illegals? Ill have to look into this. In the meantime....

  Are you telling me they couldnt get Unemployment?

  Are you telling me they couldnt get a college loan?

• December 14, 2006

  3:57 PM

  haloguy628 writes:

  I am an immigrant myself. Came here legally in 1983, worked in car wash till I learned english language, then served 8 years in US Army, got my citizenship while in service, went to college and the rest is history. It was at times hard, but doable.

  Now to this ICE raid issue. I am amazed at the arrogance of the illegals (we gonna revolt, this is our land, etc.), and dunce like submissive behavior of their supporters. Only in US of A.

  I must however also admit that this situation is the direct result of behaviors exhibited by constantly growing numbers of US citizens themselves who feel that they can excuse immoral and sometimes criminal behavior by some hardship or misfortune that may or may not happened to them sometime in their lives. Worst yet, this behavior is condoned and protected by the Judicial branch of the government. Personal responsibility seems to be passe these days. So no surprise that the illegals learned to use it to their advantage.

  Presenting oneself as a victim has it's advantages. Issues get muddied, attention is diverted, The accusor becomes the accused, and in the end the perpetrator is transformed into a victim with rights. Just go and sit in any court of law and watch. So why then anybody should be surprised that this same technique is used by the illegals? It is pretty clear that they are very good at finding any and every loophole and trick in the book to get what they want while claiming victim status to divert attention. And guess what, in their circles when gringo is out of hearing range they laugh at how stupid the gringo is to let them do what they do and get away with it.

  I just hope that this raid is only the start. There is always big dust when you start to sweep dirty room. But if you continue, the dust will eventually settle down and you will clean the room. So ICE needs to do this on regular basis and we will see improvement.

  One more issue. Don't fool yourself. The illegal immigrants coming in today are not the type of immigrant that was coming to these shores 50 - 100 years ago. Today it's all about balkanization of the US, and that will be the downfall of US as a sovereign country.

  What is almost comical is that not many americans understand the significance of the refusal to learn English and insistence to fly the Mexican flag. One hint. Those are not cultural traditions and customs. Those things are called nationalismus, and nationalismus is antagonistic. Wake up.

• December 14, 2006

  3:57 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  3:47--my point was that the talking point that illegals are still taking jobs from americans does not hold water. if you want a job in this economy you have one.

• December 14, 2006

  4:07 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  First thing we need to do is outlaw racial hatred. As we can all see it is a major factor. Secondly the envy and jealousy towards those who are different is sickening. Finally, if people don't start dealing with their own hearts this great nation you claim to have is going to crumble.
  We need more problem solvers than problem makers. Race hating is not okay. It drives one step closer to racial tension. We don't need this. If you don't have something intelligent to say that lends to resolving these issues that just didn't begin when bad boy Tom started pushin your all buttons. Hate crimes are on the increase.
  This needs to stop. What your asking for is not reality. Racism in all its ugliness has reared its face in problematic way here in Colorado. Face it Mexicans will always be a part of this picture. If you have such severe emotional problems with it visit your local mental health clinic because this garbage and hate that is spilled out is doing nothing for the good of anyone. These websites should really be banned because they further magnify the sole idea that Anglo saxons are human and everything of color is bad. This is crazy. So all you Skinheads, KKK, NRA and just plain lunatics get over it you're not the majority and will never win over the hearts and minds of decent Americans who want to continue to build a great world that answers the call of the needy. Life is to short.

• December 14, 2006

  4:09 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  It's not as if these "undocumented workers" don't know they are breaking the law by coming here illegally. They know it! And they chose to break the law. THEY are the ones that have put their families in difficult situations...not ICE or government. It's too bad...they obviously didn't care enough about their families to not put them into such a risky situation.

  Yes, it's hard on the kids, spouses, etc...but it's not as if they "didn't know" this could happen.

• December 14, 2006

  4:10 PM

  Crime & Punishment writes:

  It's not as if these "undocumented workers" don't know they are breaking the law by coming here illegally. They know it! And they chose to break the law. THEY are the ones that have put their families in difficult situations...not ICE or government. It's too bad...they obviously didn't care enough about their families to not put them into such a risky situation.

  Yes, it's hard on the kids, spouses, etc...but it's not as if they "didn't know" this could happen.

• December 14, 2006

  4:14 PM

  get real writes:

  I'm sick of people saying it's just white people who are racist towards Mexicans. Check this out.

  http://www.mexica-movement.org/ENTERHERETEXTONLY.htm

• December 14, 2006

  4:36 PM

  fiesty writes:

  haloguy628 - thank you so much for your succinct comments! You're dead-on about the lack of personal accountability and the victim ploy to escape it. Further, YOU are an example of true immigrants to this country- willing to work hard and be an AMERICAN.

  407- you are yet another in the long line in this blog evincing comments about hatred etc. Interestingly enough, each time I have posted asking for a response to why compassion should excuse the willingly breaking of the law in one case, but not another, I have received NO reply. Guess it's easier to spout baseless propoganda, huh?

• December 14, 2006

  4:48 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Racist, professional victim, baby factory, arrogant, violent and rude.

  Boy we need some more of that!

• December 14, 2006

  5:13 PM

  finally they got caught writes:

  I think that illegal is illegal, they should be rounded up, given an implant that will tell the police if they cross the boarder again and dropped back into their home country. If they thought that America was such a great place with all of its great opportunities they should have come here legally, now they should be sent back to the craphole that they come from and not allowed to enter the US again.

• December 14, 2006

  5:21 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  cracker is to a white person.
  ni&&er is to a black person.
  mexican is to an immigrant.
  g()()k is to an asian person.

  We all know that the terms imply very differnet feelings, but they characterize the differences very well.

• December 14, 2006

  5:23 PM

  JW writes:

  "Interestingly enough, each time I have posted asking for a response to why compassion should excuse the willingly breaking of the law in one case, but not another, I have received NO reply. Guess it's easier to spout baseless propoganda, huh?"

  You know, this always makes me laugh. Not at the people who buy it though. Even judges will lie to you, and tell you if the law was broken, a conviction is mandatory.

  But its bs. There is precident. If you are on a jury, and you dont think someone should face the penalty of breaking a law FOR WHATEVER REASON, you can (and arguably should) refuse to convict even if you KNOW damn well the defendant is guilty.

  That being said, it is your RIGHT as an American to decide when a law is WRONG. And since one stance rarely takes into account all the myriad of possibilities, its probably good to keep an open mind in these cases.

  Again, Im in favor of the Guest Worker Program for the reasons Ive stated. There have been good arguements on both sides of the issue here, but as Jay said, if you are looking at this from any perspective other than economic, your are doing it with emotion. I dont give a crap if Illegals are breaking a law if their presence is good for our economy. If that is the case, the law is wrong.
  People say illegals are bad for the economy, but people who actually KNOW say there isnt enough info to KNOW one way or the other.

  Guest Worker isnt perfect, but it wont fuck our economy, and it will allow us to get the data we need to decide A) if this is actually a problem and B) what to do about it if it is.
  

• December 14, 2006

  5:24 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "I'm sick of people saying it's just white people who are racist towards Mexicans. "

  I can't recall any sane person ever saying that. Are you writing from Ft. Logan?

• December 14, 2006

  5:45 PM

  jay writes:

  "Continually [the democrats] drive the American middle class towards the poverty level"

  Ohhh CAA...that was the best laugh I've had in a while....well done...

  I love how you falsely claim that the Dems are pro-illegal immigration....

  gets me every time....good stuff.

• December 14, 2006

  5:48 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "Really? Seperate funding for Illegals? Ill have to look into this. In the meantime....

  Are you telling me they couldnt get Unemployment?

  Are you telling me they couldnt get a college loan?

  Posted by JW on December 14, 2006 03:55 PM"

  
  in some cases, no, they couldn't get unemployment because of the manner in which they were terminated to make room for the illegal who took their job .... yes, they might have been able to sue, but that too takes money ... not all attorneys work pro bono or contingency.

  and yes, they could get a student loan .... but let's say they go for a two year program .... they have to still make their house payment and eat in the meantime .... lots of folks i know that have been displaced by illegals have lost their homes, their cars, their spouses .... they have plenty of reason to be bitter about this issue.

  it just all depends on who the shit hits when it comes flying off the fan.

  
  and 3:57, that's your view on it I suppose ... but have you ever lived it? one guy I know made about $80k a year in body and paint .... worked six or seven days a week, 10 to 14 hours a day ..... made great money .... the company let him go because he wanted to take two weeks vacation to attend his sons wedding out of state and they didn't have a policy for vacation time, paid or otherwise .... hired two Mexican painters while he was gone. another guy was a framer, specializing in wood and metal stud assembly ... had been with his company, non-union, for almost 20 years ... made around $30 an hour ..... showed up for work one day a couple years ago, was told he was no longer needed .... a friend he worked with there called later that day to tell him he'd been replaced with three Mexicans who the employer never asked for ID, at $8 an hour ... so they got three for less than the price of one, didn't pay any benefits, and the builder reaped the rewards.

  sorry guys, but that isn't right ..... you have it happen to you, then come back and tell me you didn't mind .... until then, allow a little room for the possibility that you may not know everything about it.

• December 14, 2006

  5:50 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  5:48---pardon us if your anecdotes don't hold the same weight as economic reality

• December 14, 2006

  5:52 PM

  jay writes:

  That's fine CAA....just post a link with a Democrat saying "I am pro-illegal immigration" and I'll let you slide on this one.

• December 14, 2006

  5:58 PM

  jay writes:

  I am not the one accusing Dems of being "pro-illegal immigration" big guy....I'm calling you out...are you conceding?

• December 14, 2006

  5:58 PM

  JW writes:

  "sorry guys, but that isn't right ..... you have it happen to you, then come back and tell me you didn't mind .... until then, allow a little room for the possibility that you may not know everything about it."

  In most of those instances, you could probably just threaten legal action. The framer that got replaced for sure. That stuff was all illegal. Seems to me the problem was unscrupulous employers, rather than the illegals who just took jobs they were offered.

• December 14, 2006

  6:00 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  5:50 .... what a dumbass ....

  it was real enough to my friends ..... the stories weren't anecdotes .... see, if you're willing to be blind enough to the actual impact of things to real people, then the whole world can be a rosy place .... you're too stupid, uneducated, and/or uninformed to discuss things with ..... you don't like the way a discussion is going, just say it's falacy .... but you never talk about facts, figures, or logic ... great.

• December 14, 2006

  6:11 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Yes to guest worker program, just no path to citizenship. Especially for those who want to be legal workers who have violated the law every day for years by living here undocumented, having stolen an innocent's identity.

  Why can't our Congress seal the border, create a guest worker program without citizenship, and adjust the birthright citizenship rule to apply to legal immigrants only? That would solve the majority of the problems we are facing right now.

• December 14, 2006

  6:15 PM

  jay writes:

  CAA,
  I'm hearing a lot of conjecture and no facts here guy. State some legislation that the DEMS have championed without any Pube support and you have a point...if not...it's just propaganda.

  The majority of the American people feel as many do in Congress...that a guest worker program is the best way to deal with our illegal immigration issue. A guest worker program isn't "pro-illegal immigration"...it is pro-America.

  hey 6:11....can you explain how the logistics of a guest worker program with no path to citizenship would operate?

• December 14, 2006

  6:15 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  " ..... That stuff was all illegal. ......"

  i believe that it was as well ..... but that didn't help them at the time .... they either didn't know it was illegal, or they didn't want to "make waves" or go through "the process" ... mostly just figuring they'd get screwed in the end.

  the body and paint guy runs his own biz out of the garage now and makes as much or more than he did before .... for him, it's worked out ....... the framer has been working odd jobs at $8 to $12 an hour, so his wife now has to work (she is a parapalegic from a car accident) making $9 an hour as a receptionist ... so the net effect for them is they make about 1/3rd less with both of them working as they did when it was just him ..... but i just about have him convinced to go to classes for being a mechanic at TH Pickens Tech ..... then he can make good money, have benefits, and his wife can be at home like she wants .....

  my only point really is that there are people who are negatively impacted by illegals being hired in their place .... i'm not without compassion for the illegals .... i have spent many hours in Juarez, Nogales, Tiajuana, and a number of other border towns, and i can't blame anyone for wanting out of that crap ... I agree with a guest worker program, and just want our government to do something that is fair to citizen and guest worker alike.

• December 14, 2006

  6:18 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  So the Feds don't manipulate the money supply?
  Of couse there will be disparity between sectors for a time. There will be geographic disparity as well. It will be an interesting time for investment advisors. We make our living (or not) by watching economic trends Data. Facts. We live by commision, not a paycheck. We have to perform or perish.
  Please base your theory on precident, not because you read a label and the product was from Mexico. Our trade deficts are a whole other issue. (Yeah, NAFTA is working great!)
  There is plenty of data on the effects of immigration.
  I'm not going to argue economics because it's not an exact science and that's what makes this debate hard to pin down.
  Too many people (JW comes to mind) who clearly cannot think out of the box or refuse to see what's right in front of them or are smoking something.
  To anyone who would like to read up on it, here is one of many great sites:

  http://www.cis.org/aboutcis.html

  Here is their charter:

  Who We Are
  The Center for Immigration Studies is an independent, non-partisan, non-profit research organization founded in 1985. It is the nation's only think tank devoted exclusively to research and policy analysis of the economic, social, demographic, fiscal, and other impacts of immigration on the United States.

  Our Mission
  It is the Center's mission to expand the base of public knowledge and understanding of the need for an immigration policy that gives first concern to the broad national interest. The Center is animated by a pro-immigrant, low-immigration vision which seeks fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted.

  Now, let me get on line and see how the short call on Swift is doing. hahahahahah
  

• December 14, 2006

  6:22 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  by the way JW, i agree with you ..... you can't blame a poor, hungry, uneducated guy for wanting to eat and provide for his family ..... and i maintain that most of us would cross a border, work our asses off, steal an identity, or do many other things despite understanding their illegality or wrongness, so we could eat and feed our little ones .... at least I would ....

• December 14, 2006

  6:28 PM

  Mexican Girl writes:

  There is a very important opinion in this blog that I read posted by haloguy628. I am also a legal immigrant with a permanent residence. I studied here under a scholarship in 1992 and less than ten years later I got the opportunity to have a job offer here.

  As bad as this may sound there is a reason why a country like Mexico is so corrupted. The culture and mentality of most people is to take advantage of all they can get without having to work or do anything for it. There is no honor rules, no respect. If they can cheat, they will. You cannot leave your car, your house, or your belongings unlock or unattended because someone will take advantage of the situation, no matter what it is. They don't care about anyone else but themselves. Look at the hospitals, at the government. IT IS A CULTURE!!! IT IS THE WAY THEY ARE WIRED!!! I am not saying there is no good people in Mexico. There are also a lot of very good people in Mexico that are successful and happy in the country. People that care for others, but most of the people that come here illegally are not wired that way.

  I agree 100% with haloguy. "Don't fool yourself. The illegal immigrants coming in today are not the type of immigrant that was coming to these shores 50 - 100 years ago. Today it's all about balkanization of the US, and that will be the downfall of US as a sovereign country." The kind of immigrant that is coming here today is the kind of immigrant that is addicted to instant gratification and will do anything (forgering, identity theft, playing victim) in order to get it. You may think, well but they are hard workers, sure they are, but they are because of financial gratification. If you are truly here to have a better life and give your family a better life, you don't do it by committing illegal acts. You study the language, you prepare yourself and WORK HARD to truly have and give your kids a better life. You don't teach your kids how to go through loopholes and take advantage of FREE government programs illegally. Programs that you don't exist in your country because the government doesn't care. Unfortunately, most of the people who come here, come from a truly predatory culture. Look at the government, look at the clergy, observe the way they are while they are here.

  Another thing that haloguy said and resonated with my opinion is: "Presenting oneself as a victim has it's advantages. Issues get muddied, attention is diverted, The accuser becomes the accused, and in the end the perpetrator is transformed into a victim with rights. Just go and sit in any court of law and watch. So why then anybody should be surprised that this same technique is used by the illegals? It is pretty clear that they are very good at finding any and every loophole and trick in the book to get what they want while claiming victim status to divert attention. And guess what, in their circles when gringo is out of hearing range they laugh at how stupid the gringo is to let them do what they do and get away with it." Mexico has a culture of going around things, you block a road, they'll find another way to get there, they always find a way. Reason why a wall would never work. When you use that skill in a positive way, you become a good resourceful employee. You use that skill the negative way, you become a plague. I truly believe that the way the government will be successful at easing the problem is by fining the employers, you cut the oxygen the employers provide, and the illegal working supply will diminish. There is no other way. If there is no demand due to hefty fines to employers, they will stop coming here to "work".

  If you build a wall, they will either climb it, or dig tunnels. You put more border security, they'll find a way to either infiltrate the force, or bribe the agents in order to have the inside operations to a T. Trust me, I know my people, and when the skill of resourcefulness is used in a negative way, combined with desperation and thirst for power and control, it becomes a danger.

  They are mad at american people even though they work for them. Observe them, they make fun, they laugh at how easy is to take advantage. The saddest part is that when you are not educated or have common sense it is very easy to be a follower and not create your own opinions by researching and pondering. Unfortunately, some lunatic with a lot of persuasion and a way to twist history has persuaded a lot of these uneducated illegal aliens into following his beliefs and planting hatred in their heads and hearts in the name of taking what the "american people" took from them. Which is completely ridiculous, because as history says, Santa Anna (the most corrupted President in Mexico besides Salinas de Gortari) sold the land, the American people didn't take it from him. Read and learn, his stupidity and inefficiency caused this and he got paid on top of that.
  http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_L%C3%B3pez_de_Santa_Anna

  I hope the ICE doesn't only put bandaids on the situation. I hope they keep going and cut it from the root, and the root of the problem is the employers.
  

• December 14, 2006

  6:30 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Why would you assume that any guest worker program HAS to have a path to citizenship? You have been saying all along that these poor people come here to work, not live permanently and partake in our social services programs. Are you changing your tune again?

  Guests that visit us leave to go home. We give them the opportunity to earn a wage that they can send home to feed their families. No wave of poor uneducated dependents steal their way into our school systems and drain our healthcare dollars. That's a long term plan that will work, unless you are a libbie Democrat who only can see the value of future dependent voters and would welcome endless waves of other nation's poor people.

• December 14, 2006

  6:32 PM

  jay writes:

  CAA,
  Well, I think we'll consider this one conceded. You can't back up your "pro-illegal immigration" claims against the Dems and your argument for no guest worker program has more holes in it than my first car....

  I've always kind of respected the fact that you're a racist jackass...but at least you wear your racism on your sleeve and don't hide behind bullshit reasons for opposing a path to citizenship for those that qualify...like some others on this blog...so there's no need to grasp as straws to justify your feelings with a weak economic argument.

  Oh...and halogirl is parrotting the same crap that "natives" said about the italians, chinese and Irish 150 years ago...same crap, different generation.

  have a good night.

• December 14, 2006

  6:36 PM

  jay writes:

  One last thing...

  6:30,
  I take it you have no clue how a guest worker program would operate without a path to citizenship...but it sounds good because such a program would still attain your true goal...which is to grow old without so many damn mexicans around...you could have just said as much without the insults....

  I'm out.

• December 14, 2006

  6:39 PM

  jay writes:

  OK, one more last thing...

  Don't be bitter because I shot holes in your arguments CAA.

  Make better points next time and I'll leave you alone.

  I'm a centrist...I just hate to see bullshit propaganda from either side of the aisle.

  Now i'm out.

• December 14, 2006

  6:41 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  jay .... are you so sure? ......... if she is for real, maybe she really does know more about "her people" than you do ..... I'm not saying she's not puttinng up a fraud post here, but maybe you could/should open your mind and ask her some questions and do some exploring ...... i'm just wary when someone has "all the answers" because i feel most nobody does

• December 14, 2006

  6:51 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Mexican Girl said "They are mad at american people even though they work for them. Observe them, they make fun, they laugh at how easy is to take advantage."

  True. I remember several times having lunch at a couple really good mexican food restaurants, and I overheard several waiters talk about how much they hated the american customers - that they should shit on their plates - and that was some of the better stuff. I was stunned that there was such hatred for us.

• December 14, 2006

  6:55 PM

  Mexican Girl writes:

  Just for the record. I was born in Mexico City back in 1974. I studied, learned languages, and prepared myself to have a better life. I also worked for the government in Mexico, for the Fobaproa to be exact, now IPAB, which is comparable with the Resolution Trust Corporation and was created to clean up the mess Salinas de Gortari left when he and his friends and family fled (mainly bankers and owner of big industries) the country with money they loan to themselves and their friends causing the country to be on the verge of an economic disaster.

  The people started to figure out and question what they were doing and they had to change the name to IPAB to try to dodge a lot of anger, because once again the tax payers were going to have to pay for the money he stole without any repercusion, because the system is so deep rooted, he still has friends in strategic areas that would never bring him to justice.

  I worked closely with big wigs from the government financial and economic sector and saw all the damage this guy did, and how desperate these people were trying to hide or diminish the extent of his damage.

• December 14, 2006

  6:57 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  SAN DIEGO - A Southern California fence-building company and two executives pleaded guilty Thursday to knowingly hiring illegal immigrants and agreed to pay a combined penalty of $5 million. The executives could also go to prison.

  The penalty is one of the biggest fines ever imposed in an immigration case, and the case represents a rare instance in which prosecutors brought criminal charges over the hiring of illegal immigrants.

• December 14, 2006

  7:04 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Mexican Girl - you are right - there is a huge amount of corruption in Mexico's government. I forget their exact place, but I think they are either the 4th or 5th exporter of oil, the 1st or 2nd exporter of gold, and the 2nd or 3rd exporter of silver. But they don't equitably share the wealth of the country with the people. With all their wealth, they could easily be one of the most educated, least poverty-stricken nations on the planet, but instead, corruption and greed makes the rich richer, and the poor poorer.

• December 14, 2006

  7:08 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Mexican Girl,
  One of my classes in College was to interview for eight weeks someone from another culture. I picked my friend Ramon and showed him the questions and asked him to please give it to me straight.
  He told me flat-out that most mexicans hate white people. His reasons were many but some where real eye-openers.
  1. We don't discipline our children. He said that we spoil ours and that makes it harder for him as a father.

  2. We don't respect our elders. He told me his grandfather had the final say in his home.

  3. We let our women walk all over us!
  He told me they expect their women to toe the line and they don't want to anymore.

  There were many other issues but I came away with a new respect and some great insite. I don't hate the good people of Mexico who want a better life.
  I just know that the United States will break under the burden of feeding South America.
  I do hate the gang/drug elements.
  That's for some more insite.
  

• December 14, 2006

  7:21 PM

  fiesty writes:

  JW- not only did you take my comment out of context, but you STILL didn't address the question. Since you obviously didn't re-read the question from earlier, I'll re-ask it, clearly enough so you can understand.

  We've had multiple postings in this blog about being compassionate and humane- essentially arguing that that compassion for the illegal aliens plight and/or families should excuse their actions and keep them from punishment for those actions (deportation).

  Using the examples below, what makes illegal aliens any different, i.e. what unique justification relieves them (both morally and legally) for accountability of their illegal and immoral actions?

  1. What about a driver who gets pulled over for being drunk? Should compassion for his family excuse him from punishment?

  2. Or what about someone desperate for food who robs a supermarket, possibly hurting someone in the process? Should compassion for their plight relieve them from the accountability of their actions?

  Here's the bottom line: We all have control over what we chose to do, regardless of the provocation. As demonstrated by my post earlier detailing the level of poverty I grew up in, I'm not speaking intellectually but from personal experience; no matter how desperate we got, we never considered doing something like this. In contrast, these individuals are using excuses to allow them to do whatever they want, and then relieve themselves of the accountability of their actions. Good portion of the problem, and an increasing one at that, is the attitude that if you don't agree with the law, it doesn't make it "so bad" if you break it. (Obviously we're not talking about laws violating civil rights etc so don't try to confuse the issue.)

• December 14, 2006

  7:27 PM

  fiesty writes:

  "as Jay said, if you are looking at this from any perspective other than economic, your are doing it with emotion. I dont give a crap if Illegals are breaking a law if their presence is good for our economy."

  JW, so the ends justify the means? If an individual breaks our laws, and continues to do so (no insurance, lies on taxes, etc) but YOU view it as good for the economy, that excuses the person on an individual level?? That doesn't make sense.

  I'm all for a guest worker program (economics whatever you want to call it) but not for amnesty for those here illegally. Deport their butts back, disqualify them for participation, and take those who are willing to follow the rules.

• December 14, 2006

  7:47 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "each time I have posted asking for a response to why compassion should excuse the willingly breaking of the law in one case, but not another, I have received NO reply. Guess it's easier to spout baseless propoganda, huh?"

  No, Feisty. You didn't get an answer because you didn't ask that question. You asked why compassion should justify treating a drunk driver with a family any differently from an illegal immigrant with a family. You were speaking of similar cases under different laws, not of different cases under the same law.

  "Equal protection under the law" means that any given law must produce similar results when applied to people who are similarly situated, according to the Supreme Court. It does not mean that all laws must be applied to all persons with equal strictness.

  It means that it is OK to put a single mother on probation while sending a dependent-free person to jail for the same offense.

  It means that it is OK to treat poor people who steal food with more compassion than rich thieves who steal the same food or anyone who steals iPods. What one steals and how desperately one needs it DO matter; that's called "mitigating circumstances", a well-established principle of justice.

  The goddess, Jusice, may be blind but she is also a woman, a symbol of compassion.

  Of course, Justice is a *noble* woman, not an embittered, feral harridan like you.

• December 14, 2006

  8:06 PM

  Mexican girl writes:

  Hi 07:08 PM,
  To a certain extent, that is the culture that still remains in Mexico, however as people get more and more educated and start questioning the fairness and validity of the old ways. For instance, the elders are to be listened to (not only respected, but their say is law no matter how unfair it is) no matter what they say, children are to be disciplined harshly, women do not have the same rights as men and as one of my law professors in college put it, they belong in the kitchen; answer he gave you when you were not able to answer his question. Another one is, a woman should remain married, no matter what the husband does (ie. beating, cheating, etc.) The culture is a patriarchy, but that is changing. Which is probably why some guys don't like it. The resentment may come from our closeness to the US, which has an influence to the culture. It would be the same way if your neighbor was North Korea. A culture that also seeks to control their people. Mexico is not that extremist but it definitely has a tint of it. Cultures and idiosincracies are like families, there are always good people, people that are bribeable and have a flexible ethics system, and black sheeps.

  But as the new generation grows, that way of thinking is becoming more progressive and changing quite a bit and that is not the American people's fault. It has everything to do with the opportunity to learn, to the amount of information that is now available allowing us to question creating a not-so-gullible generation. But the catch 22 here is that just a small number of people has that access to information angering the people who are set on the old ways. If the question was, why mexicans hate americans? I would say it is about envy. I would say it is sourced by envy overall. I have seen so many people do everything in their power to halt, hate and/or destroy the success of a co-worker or friend just out of envy and give excuses to justify their doings.

  The appeal of the United States is an easier life, a government that "to a certain extent" looks for the welfare of the not so wealthy (Mexico doesn't have that), more well-paying jobs, a humanized healthcare system,etc. However, that kind of life comes with a price, you have to pay taxes in order to afford all those programs, there are rules and boundaries that people need to follow, otherwise you pay the price. We, as a culture, unfortunatenly don't have that discipline. Where are they going to learn it from? Their role models? Unless you are brought up that way, you broaden your horizons by looking to other point of views, travelling, and being opened to learn; that discipline is not there becuse that is not given at birth. We all know how much corruption and bribery there is in the country. So I believe that when they cannot take all the benefits without having to pay the price, they get resentful. Because the truth is, they want to have everything the American people have, but they want to live the same way they always have, and that is just not feasible. Period. To answer your question, I think that is the source of the hatred.

• December 14, 2006

  9:27 PM

  fiesty writes:

  David,

  Look at your own words, and try to think outside your own little box for just a moment.

  1. "You asked why compassion should justify treating a drunk driver with a family any differently from an illegal immigrant with a family."

  Not exactly. What I want to know is what the basis is for such a radical difference in APPLICATION of compassion (based upon the families) as a mitigating factor between the two cases. The mitigating factor (compassion for the families) is exactly the same for both; so why does it warrant complete absolution of crimes committed by the illegal immigrant, but not the drunk driver? Since you are apparently a legal expert, maybe you can explain why.

  2. "You were speaking of similar cases under different laws, not of different cases under the same law."

  Not quite. You can't use that argument to invalidate my examples, although it's a nice try. Mitigating factors can be used not only in different cases but those falling under different laws as well. Else insanity could not be used in such the range of cases it is (murder, arson, etc).

  3. Legal stuff aside, you didn't address the moral aspects of the robbery example. Both the robber and the illegal immigrant broke the law for the same reason- to support their families. Compassion for their families as a mitigating factor is also exactly the same.

  4. I don't understand why supporting enforcement of the law makes me an "embittered feral harridan". First, to use your own metaphor, justice may be compassionate but that doesn't mean weak. As a mother, it pains me to have to discipline my son. But it is my not only my responsibility, but my duty, to do so. It must be done not only for the child, but for society. Justice is the same. Second, once again, statements like this seem like emotional manipulation along the lines of the false "victim" mentality being put forth that we've already discussed in this blog. Lastly, you making a vicious comment like that says you are more embittered that I can or will ever be, considering I've not once made such a hate-filled comment or indulged in such a vicious personal attack like that, regardless of how frustrated I get when debating others. I feel sorry for you. In all serious, I urge you to get counseling, because it's obvious you have some deep hurt and bitterness of your own that results in you in striking out at others to hurt them.

• December 14, 2006

  10:42 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  Fiesty, you are an embittered, feral harridan not because of your support for law enforcement, but because of the crappy childhood you had.

  Your "not exactly" and "not quite" dodges are specious, as anyone who can read this page can tell.

  Not all robbers and illegal immigrants break the law to feed their families. Each case is different and must be examined individually. Your simplistic, rigid righteousness fails is fatally flawed on that score.

  The difference between robbers and illegal immigrants lies not in the reasons for which they break the law or the reasons for granting them compassion, but in the reasons for the laws which they break.

  Robbery weighs heavily in the scales of justice because it deprives someone else of life, liberty, and property. The property loss is inherent in the crime. Persistent fear generated by the experience of being robbed tends to make a person live a more circumscribed life thereafter. His liberty to go places and do things that he formerly enjoyed is diminished by fear of being robbed again.

  Illegal immigration does not deprive anyone else of life, liberty, or property. (No, "opportunity" is not property. It exists, but it belongs to no one.) Indeed, thanks to the labor of illegal immigrants most of us enjoy more prosperous lives; liberty from the least desirable work; and a great deal more property. Illegal immigration is but a feather in the scale of justice, at worst.

  Throw compassion for a family that depends upon the lawbreaker onto the other side of the scale and it tips in favor of the illegal immigrant but not in that of the robber.

  Finally, as another poster noted earlier today, some laws are just morally wrong. "Good men must not obey laws too well," wrote Emerson. No matter if the law allows or even requires it, you don't muzzle the ox that treads your grain; you don't beat the dog that gives you only love; and you don't destroy the families that build your house, bring you food, and clean your toilet.

  Especially those families who have NOT broken the damned law!

• December 15, 2006

  5:05 AM

  US-Air Force Academy writes:

  "Never lie, cheat or steal, or tolerate those that do."

• December 15, 2006

  6:43 AM

  fiesty writes:

  David,

  I could be wrong, but based upon your last two posts, it seems that you believe illegal immigration is a question of compassion and as such, our border laws are morally wrong.

  1. Can you not see that this stance is a completely subjective one, based upon what YOU believe is right? Why does what your belief automatically mean you are right, and everyone else is wrong? By what right do you label anyone who disagrees with you on this precept as heartless, bitter, and full of hate?

  2. Do you honestly believe that no country has the right to secure borders or to enforce their border laws since it's a "morally corrupt" to do so?

  3. Do you then advocate completely open borders for humanitarian reasons? If yes, security concerns aside, do you really think our economy could handle that? If no, why? Do you advocate giving preferential treatment to those lucky enough to have the geographical advantage.

  4. Your statement of "Illegal immigration does not deprive anyone else of life, liberty, or property. " is blatantly false as shown repeatedly on this blog. How many folks have lost jobs to illegal immigrants, and lost homes as a result? How many illegal immigrants have broken further laws such as ID theft and no insurance?

  5. I noticed you just reiterated your statement about me being a harridan, rather than address what making such a statement says about yourself. Let's review- we have one individual here who, when someone disagrees with his beliefs, viciously attacks another with personal comments meant to hurt. Ironically, the very comment they espouse shows a hypocrisy about themselves- accusing the other of bitterness, while doing so in a bitter manner! The other individual, not only refuses to retaliate in kind, stays calm and actually urges the other to get help. That says something about the character of the individuals involved, and demonstrates quite a bit to the other readers of this blog.

• December 15, 2006

  7:05 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Once again, we see Mr. Hakala put forth the belief that committing an illegal act (crossing the border illegally, acquiring false documentation to work, often driving without insurance, among others) is acceptable, as long as someone's "need" can justify it.

  By this measure, America MUST eliminate ALL laws prohibiting illegal entry into the country, and MUST open the doors to any and everyone around the world who wants to come live and work here, because the world is full of people in need, and we owe it to them to be their supporters and care-takers. Sovereignty be damned! Controlled borders be damned.

  Better yet, maybe you clean your own damned toilets instead of taking advantage of others? What a concept.

• December 15, 2006

  8:05 AM

  Davy Crockett writes:

  Remember the Alamo!

• December 15, 2006

  8:10 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Crocket you moron, the whites got their asses kicked at the Alamo, in fact, that is where Crocket died you jackass. Learn your history and quit making us Anglos look stupid. Looking stupid is Jays & JW's job

• December 15, 2006

  8:15 AM

  gr8fuldude writes:

  Well, looks like we can now add mysogynistic to the list of David Hakala's other redeeming qualities. Only an abusive jerk would namecall and defame character based on someone else's childhood. Nice job there guy. Hope you raise your son (s) better than your old man did.

• December 15, 2006

  8:20 AM

  Davy Crockett writes:

  Remember the Alamo! I say , you traitorous bastard!

• December 15, 2006

  8:33 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Arnie for Satan for all eternity!!!

  You know Arnie is the real Mexican Girl...only he could agree with himself...HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

  Stop already. You accuse me of using the race card, but look how you dog my race. You don't know a thing about my race and culture. As for Mexican Girl...the comments are eurocentric founded therefore they're not supported by truth. This is a pitch to gender up some more fuel for the fire. If Mexican Girl is real she's a sleeve bag out after Arnie. Arnie and Mexican Girl belong together in some remote hole in Iraq.

• December 15, 2006

  8:42 AM

  JW writes:

  "Too many people (JW comes to mind) who clearly cannot think out of the box or refuse to see what's right in front of them or are smoking something. "

  You need to go look at how the phrase "think outside the box" is used. It sure as hell doesnt mean following the herd. And it does not mean going by "what is right in front of them" Thinking outside the box means thinking about things in DIFFERENT ways. You are following the herd here. I and very few others are thinking outside the box as we have a different opinion than the majority. Accuse me of being wrong if you like, but at least use the correct phrase.

  "JW- not only did you take my comment out of context, but you STILL didn't address the question. Since you obviously didn't re-read the question from earlier, I'll re-ask it, clearly enough so you can understand."

  I understood very well thanks. You should re-read my post. It answers your question as to why some people breaking the law need to be punnished, and why its ok to say others breaking the law dont. Bad laws do NOT have to be blindly followed. This society thinks so, but that doenst make it true.

  "JW, so the ends justify the means? If an individual breaks our laws, and continues to do so (no insurance, lies on taxes, etc) but YOU view it as good for the economy, that excuses the person on an individual level?? That doesn't make sense."

  Youre right, but of course, thats not what I said. I said if the economy is benefited by illegals, they dont need to be punnished, the law needs to be changed. And, if you would stop attacking me and think about the position Ive stated SEVERAL TIMES you would know that "YOU view it as good for the economy" is not at all what I base it on. I want the GWP so we can get the data and people MUCH SMARTER THAN ANYONE (including me) ON THIS BLOG can do the research, and figure out if Illegals are good, or bad for the economy. As stated previously, any position on this issue that is not economic in nature is pure emotion. As Ive stated, people in the know say we do not have the data to make a rational decision on whether illegals are bad or good for the economy.

  And I love the "Its right in front of your face" and "This is obvious" stuff. PhD economists cant figure this out because we dont have the data, but a bunch of mexican hating rednecks who dont even have a Masters, let alone a PhD, understand it because its "obvious". This is why decisions made using emotion are bad ones. They have no basis in reality.

  BTW Fiesty, reading your posts it seems that you and I are not far different on our opinions here. Id even say your idea that illegals currently here are inelidgible for the GWP is ok. There are plenty more where they came from. That being the case, I wonder why you feel the need to attack me.

• December 15, 2006

  8:47 AM

  fiesty writes:

  gr8fuldude -

  Doubt David will admit to it. I must admit I am surprised by his attitude though. At that point in the blog, we we were discussing the victim mentality and how folks were trying to escape personal accountability by claiming that their plight was a justifiable reasons for their actions. That is the sole reason I mentioned my childhood- yes, it was bad, but the POINT was that I didn't resort to illegal behavior or the "I'm a victim, thus entitled" mentality. Instead of using my childhood as an excuse to take what I wanted/needed, it fueled a determination to better myself, which is why I went into the military and worked so hard on my education. Nor did I resort to the afore-mentioined mentality or bitterness, even though tempted, when during that military service life threw me some wicked twists culminating in a disability confining me to a wheelchair. That is the sole reason I gave snippets of personal experience- I thought they were entirely applicable to this blog, to show how different folks handle the same situation, some morally/legally and others not.

  Yet David twisted it in such an ugly way, in order to support his viewpoint. Here I thought that the drive to better myself (through morally acceptable means!), serving my country, and a refusal to partake in the bitter/victim/entitlement mentality was a good thing. However, according to David, it isn't, and those beliefs are actually bitter and qualify as a harridan. Wow.

• December 15, 2006

  8:52 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  You lefties kill me, amnesty is not the answer, its not what the mexicans want. They are enjoying abusing the system and not paying taxes and such. I know this because a close relative is the director of social services. The man has a different ID so he works while the women who claims to be single with kids collect welfare. Amnesty will grant some the rights they seek, the rest will continue to stay under the radar and abuse the system for their own benefit. Secondly, the vast majority of mexicans are catholic and will turn on you libs after they get what they want and be GOP voters for religious reasons. We already explored the moronic leftys version, Reagan granted amnesty and it backfired, he would not make the same mistake twice, I realize you libs are stuck on stupid, but scamnesty is not the answer

• December 15, 2006

  9:03 AM

  fiesty writes:

  JW-

  "You need to go look at how the phrase "think outside the box" is used. It sure as hell doesnt mean following the herd. "

  Interesting. We are arguing the same thing, but from different perspectives. I believe you are following the liberal herd, and spouting off their propoganda. Hence my comment about thinking outside the box. You in turn view me the same way, albeit I'm not sure what majority you think I'm a part of. This is kind of funny in a way, don't you think?

  "Bad laws do NOT have to be blindly followed. "

  I never argued that. Obviously, bad or immoral laws need to be challenged- in the proper manner. However, apparently the question in this case is apparently whether or not border laws are "bad" or "immoral". Else enforcement of them wouldn't be the issue, yes?

  "BTW Fiesty, reading your posts it seems that you and I are not far different on our opinions here. Id even say your idea that illegals currently here are inelidgible for the GWP is ok. There are plenty more where they came from. That being the case, I wonder why you feel the need to attack me. "

  JW, please don't confuse disagreeing with a person's position as attacking the person. I tend to be calm and address the argument, not the person. (I mostly disagree with your viewpoint of illegal immigrants with economics and amnesty.) You want an example of personal attacks, look at David's posts.

  Other comments to your post-

  1. Please be careful as to who you attribute comments from. You listed at least one in your post that wasn't from me.
  2. I don't qualify as a liberal hating redneck since I didn't spend but 7 years here as a child (aforementioned time in MI), but was born and raised mostly overseas. (I didn't even understand the whole Jeff Foxworthy Redneck humor until after my husband explained it. LOL) I have discovered that I tend to have quite different perspectives that the majority of Americans I meet, and continue to make faux paus here. I apologize if I have done so in this blog.
  3. In answer to your uneducated argument, for the record, I have three degrees.

• December 15, 2006

  9:12 AM

  fiesty writes:

  Btw, in all serious and no sarcasm intended, can one of the pro-illegal immigrant crowd address the comments made in my December 13, 2006 08:13 PM post?

  First, we had the 1986 amnesty movement that made 3 million illegals. As a result, we now have an estimated 9-11 in this country. Do you really think amnesty is the answer?

  Second, don't you think the lax enforcement of our borders laws isn't contributed to the sheer magnitude of the problem?

  Third, if you are pro-illegal immigrants, what about the almost exponetial growth and projected future numbers? Is this not alarming? Do you really think our economy can support that?

  Lastly, you claim there is no data supporting the claim that illegal immigrants are a burden to our economy and society. Yes, proponents on both sides of the issue can't quantify intangibles. Yet there are tangible numbers out there. I posted numbers from the Huddle study that are extremely concrete. What is your rebuttal?

• December 15, 2006

  9:19 AM

  Ben Franklin writes:

  Fool me once (Immigration Reform Act of 1986) shame on you. Fool me twice (Guest Worker Program) shame on me.

• December 15, 2006

  9:24 AM

  JW writes:

  "Interesting. We are arguing the same thing, but from different perspectives. I believe you are following the liberal herd, and spouting off their propoganda. Hence my comment about thinking outside the box. You in turn view me the same way, albeit I'm not sure what majority you think I'm a part of. This is kind of funny in a way, don't you think? "

  Hmm. So Im pushing a proposal from Bush, but spouting liberal propoganda? Who else have you seen saying we dont have the data to make rational decisions on this? Ive seen Jay say SIMILAR things, but not the same. Thats it. What liberal politicians have you seen saying these things? I havent seen any. That said, Im not quite sure why what Im saying can be termed "Liberal Propoganda" in any factual way. And you now quallify as one of those people who need to look up "Liberal" and start using the word correctly. What you mean is DEMOCRAT, and its becasuse you are buying REPUBLICAN propoganda that says Dems are pro-sanctuary (which just cracks me up, becasue its BUSH pushing the GWP people label sanctuary. You have to be blind AND stupid to believe that crap).

  "However, apparently the question in this case is apparently whether or not border laws are "bad" or "immoral". "

  Thats the emotional stance. Im of the factual stance, IE does inforcement of these laws hurt our economy? I couldnt give a crap about the morallity involved. Thats emotion, not rational decision making, and its subjective too.

  "JW, please don't confuse disagreeing with a person's position as attacking the person."

  Hmm. What was this then?

  "So JW, money's everything, no matter how you get it, hmm?"

  Or this;

  "I'll re-ask it, clearly enough so you can understand."

  They dont sound very nice to me. I suppose you can argue that they arent at the level of attacks, but they sure dont make me feel all fluffy inside. The first one paints me as a money grubbing immoral bastard, and the second calls my intelligence into question. If I call you a stupid git because you dont even understand your own insults, would you think I was attacking you?

  "Please be careful as to who you attribute comments from. "

  I didnt attribute anything to you. I simply cut and pasted comments from you and others, and responded.

  "I don't qualify as a liberal hating redneck since I didn't spend but 7 years here as a child (aforementioned time in MI), but was born and raised mostly overseas."

  Maybe not, but you call my arguements "liberal propoganda" even though I cant think of a single Liberal using my stance for their Propoganda, and NEITHER CAN YOU.

  "In answer to your uneducated argument, for the record, I have three degrees."

  Then you should be better at critical thinking. I certainly never painted your particular arguements as uneducated. It was pretty clear that those comments are directed at the "Throw them out" and "Its obvious they are bad for the economy" crowd.

• December 15, 2006

  9:28 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  8:52 You're stupid. Are you a Mexican? No you don't wanna be!
  Know we wouldn't accept you!!!
  How do you even attempt to discuss
  what Mexican's want? There are three catagories of Mexicans you are dealing with: Native Mexicans those generational Mexicans ones who never left after 1848; Legal Mexicans who crossed the imposed border legally; and the undocumented. Maybe we don't recognize the imposed border. We have a historical nature to be a nomadic people who migrated freely before the U.S invasion and occupation. These are historical truths that you could negate until you're red in the face, but it won't change the facts. So, yes we are colonized and watch in horror as you hunt us down like cattle to take to slaughter. What's new? Raids, racial hatred, and massive deportations are not new. We are a people who strive to survive. As bad as it sounds a lot of illegal activity is committed in the act of the American dream. You know that. Take a look at your government and corporate leaders. They kill, steal and lie in your face and rip you and I off everyday. What's the beef? Who's taken what from who?

• December 15, 2006

  9:46 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Fiesty,
  If you want to debate...at least post info that hasn't been debunked like Huddle's study. Do a little more research and get back to us.

  http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

• December 15, 2006

  9:58 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  9:28, another fine example of how intelligent you mexicans are. "you're stupid". Nah-ah, you're stupid! No, Your're stupid. Idiot, keep talking your occupation crap, I look foward to this revolt you beaners speak of. 15 million mexicans against 150 million americans, yeah you losers aint gonna get the end of that short stick........Again I ask, if you dolts are so proud of your country, why cant make anything of it?

• December 15, 2006

  10:11 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  How many states currently exist in Mexico?

  32 (see http://www.maps-mexico.com/mexico-states-ow.shtml)

  
  I say we bring the troops home from Iraq, and we invade Mexico. After we depose and execute el presidente and everyone who talks to him, we carve the nation up into 10 or so reasonably sized states, making them the 51st through 60th states. We fix our oil problem, we tap into huge deposits of precious metals, we make citizens out of their entire population, and we kill off their corrupt and vile leadership.

  No more illegal immigration problems from Mexico, plenty of people for the world's leading workforce, we will have fixed a huge poverty problem in our own hemisphere, and opened the doors of opportunity to educate millions. And think of all that ocean-front property.

  What say ye?

• December 15, 2006

  10:13 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  My dear Mexicans,

  You don't tell someone you are going to "take back" land from them and not expect a fight.

  Overbreeding won't help either, because you will create a hell hole just like Mexico. And you guys kill each other FAR MORE than the other races have ever killed and of you.

  It sounds like you invaders are calling for a race war. Pray you don't one.

• December 15, 2006

  10:15 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  I say that is one of the worst ideas since the Dems wanted to hold the convention in Denver.

  With the exceptions of the tourist locales, who would want to live in a sh*thole like Mexico?

  Although it would be a solution to our landfill and trash disposal issues.

• December 15, 2006

  10:18 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  I say thee needs to take thy meds

• December 15, 2006

  10:22 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Invading mexico is a great idea. They clearly do not wish for their own country and we will surley do more with it then anything those people have accomplished. Plus the mexican military is joke and needs to be put down. It would also over time make our military larger, and then we could deal with Venuzualia, by sending in the mexicans to slaughter them. Its win win. INVADE MEXICO NOW

• December 15, 2006

  10:25 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  10:22 - just another of the many benefits - I like the way you think.

• December 15, 2006

  10:27 AM

  Darwin writes:

  If I may conjure, if no white men existed and Mexicans and other third world countries were the only peoples in the world, they would still be riding donkeys and using primitive tools in the 21st century.
  Yea , like I want to live in that world.

• December 15, 2006

  10:30 AM

  fiesty writes:

  December 15, 2006 09:46 AM -

  Your link is inaccurate since it specifically mentions stats being run around for LA county. I got mine from: http://www.fairus.org AND from the Census bureau as stated. That doesn't qualify as research?

• December 15, 2006

  10:33 AM

  history buff writes:

  If Mexico became part of the United States, under our Constitution, everyone south of the boarder would be granted the right to travel to any state in the United States, a right that is guarenteed by the privileges and immunity clause.

• December 15, 2006

  10:38 AM

  JW writes:

  Fiesty,

  I would probably take anything you find on fairus.com with a grain of salt, meaning I wouldnt buy it unless I saw it from another source that wasnt so HEAVILY biased. Not saying its all wrong, just saying that site is only going to post facts that support the "illegals are a huge problem" side of the debate.

  Census bureau is another story all together.

• December 15, 2006

  10:42 AM

  fiesty writes:

  Jay,

  I think this will probably be my last reply to your postings, since you tend is mischaracterize and misunderstand everything I post. Rather that waste time arguing about minutae and inconsequentials, I prefer to address the meat of the debate.

  1. An observation. I have you a concession by agreeing with you that some of our viewpoints were similiar. Yet you attacked even that!

  2, I do not agree that my difference of opinion should be with democrats, instead of liberals. I know both democrat and republicans with whom I agree, and disagree. I vote for candidates of both parties, and their affiliation means nothing to me just their stance on issues. It's the liberal agenda that I found I disagree with on just about every subject.

  3. If I made the assumption you're a liberal, and you don't believe you are, then I apologize. However, you are stating some of the exact same arguments that self-admitted liberals are using, so I don't think I'm totally to blame.

  4. You posted two examples of what you believe are me "attacking" you, yet I think it's more of your perception. In the case of the former, I simply evaluated your comments about economics and having better materialistic items and life as being about money. Is that so wrong? Certainly seems like that is what it was about. I said nothing about you being a money gruber, you PERCEIVED it that way, just as you assumed my comment about making my position clearer as obviously an attempt to insult your intelligence. It never occurred to you that perhaps instead it was the admittance that sometimes folks don't post their position clearly or succintly enough...

  5. "I couldnt give a crap about the morallity involved." Then why were you the one who brought up the "Bad laws do NOT have to be blindly followed"? Bad involves a moral judgment.

  6. Lastly, just because I come to different conclusions than yours based upon my interpretation of the law and situation doesn't mean that I "should be better at critical thinking". In other words, why should folks have to agree with you in order for you to think they have good critical thinking skills? That my friend is faulty logic.

• December 15, 2006

  10:45 AM

  Middle Class American writes:

  Jw, yea your right. I'll just refer to you and your polls for any and all poll info.

• December 15, 2006

  10:47 AM

  fiesty writes:

  JW-

  Thank you for admitting that at least one of my sources is creditable, or at least that I made a good faith effort at research. There are actually quite a few good think tanks out there on the topic of illegal immigration. You should check them out. No matter what side of the issue you're on, some of the data presented is quite intriguing.

  One big problem I've seen is that folks want to automatically throw out any conclusions or data just because a stance associated with it- and that goes to both sides of any issue. By using that criteria, you can never truly rely on any "evidence"!

  I say you evaluate the methodology of the reserach to determine the research's validity, rather than totally dismiss it out of hand.

• December 15, 2006

  10:49 AM

  fiesty writes:

  Oops, my December 15, 2006 10:42 AM should have been addressed to JW, not Jay. My apologies.

• December 15, 2006

  10:56 AM

  jay writes:

  Wrong guy fiesty...I think you meant to address JW, not me.

  I will comment since you got me involved. I think most educated folks can agree (along with the vast majority of the American people) that a guest worker program is the only sensible solution to date. I will concur with a previous poster that the Huddle study and many like it with similar conclusions have been cleanly debunked. The facts of the matter are that illegal immigrants are a net benefit to our economy from a GDP standpoint. Most of the benefit is garnered by companies, not individuals...so I understand how that fact raises some hackles. That being said, if you take the emotion (about race) out of this issue and simply look at it from a long term economic perspective, the solution is a no-brainer (which is why I've largely stayed out of the fray on this one). We simply can't afford to retool one of the pillars of our economic foundation (labor force) while trying to keep future financial superpowers like China at bay.

• December 15, 2006

  11:04 AM

  fiesty writes:

  Hey guys, I'm going to have to take a time out for a while... my son is sick. The only reason I mention it, is the last time I left a blog suddenly for an emergency, I came back to a ration of extremely rude and derogatory comments that my "sudden silence" was being interpreted to mean a host of things I certainly didn't intend.

  In a humorous vein, I suspect David will be happy given his comment asking me to leave earlier, and JW will probably be happy to have me out of his hair for a bit. :-)

• December 15, 2006

  11:18 AM

  JW writes:

  "An observation. I have you a concession by agreeing with you that some of our viewpoints were similiar. Yet you attacked even that!"

  No. I attacked your characterization of my views as "spouting off liberal propoganda".

  "However, you are stating some of the exact same arguments that self-admitted liberals are using, so I don't think I'm totally to blame."

  Give me one example of a "self admitted liberal" who backs the GWP because they feel we dont have adequate info to make rational decisions on this issue. If you can do that, I'll freely admit that you were right, and I am wrong.

  "just as you assumed my comment about making my position clearer as obviously an attempt to insult your intelligence."

  You could have a point here. I suppose "I'll restate my opinion more clearly" is a bit less likely to cause this misunderstanding. When you add the "so you can understand it" at the end, it sounds condecending. But again, I can understand how this is my error.

  "Then why were you the one who brought up the "Bad laws do NOT have to be blindly followed"? Bad involves a moral judgment."

  You can argue that. But in this case, my use of "bad" refers to the economic affect.

  "In other words, why should folks have to agree with you in order for you to think they have good critical thinking skills? That my friend is faulty logic."

  My reference to your critical thinking skills had nothing to do with this. It had to do with you concluding that I was calling your arguements uneducated, when I was clearly refering to other arguements as such. In fact, if you will think for a moment, it would be kind of silly for me to characterize your arguements for a GWP as uneducated when I hold the same beliefs myself, ya think?

  "I say you evaluate the methodology of the reserach to determine the research's validity, rather than totally dismiss it out of hand."

  When you are given the methodology, and if you have the requred education, thats fine. Most people dont. This isnt a simple issue.

• December 15, 2006

  11:18 AM

  Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

  fiesty,

  I wish your son a speedy recovery. I will say some controversial things to deflect attention from you. They like beating me up more anyway.

• December 15, 2006

  12:13 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  On what grounds would you invade Mexico dumbo? Weapons of mass destructuion oh no...you scare me.
  You're pretty confident about things aren't you. You underestimate us. We know a takeover is unlikely. We live in the belly of the shark. How did you get your numbers of 150 million? I doubt you can win over the majority with your pathetic racist viewpoints. What's more you could kills us all and have your way, but you would still come out losing because our indiginous spirits would live on. That for me is the beauty of it all. You could kill us all, but who'll never win our souls. I hope you don't have children because some day you will give account of what you're teaching them. I just can't help but laugh at how the historical nature of my comments stirs you to a total invasion of Mexico. You're quite funny. No you're una idiota blanca y molestado.

• December 15, 2006

  12:30 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  12:13 -- No you're una idiota blanca y molestado.
  

• December 15, 2006

  12:30 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Jay,
  You are correct about GDP.
  It does go up.
  But is it worth it?
  Lets look at some facts. Everyone can do the math:

  "GDP per domestic person goes up," said James Smith, a senior economist at the Rand think tank in Santa Monica and lead author of the National Research Council's study "The New Americans: Economic, Demographic and Fiscal Effects of Immigration."

  Since 1980, he said, all immigrants, including both undocumented and legal, have boosted GDP by $10 billion per year. "That's not to be sneezed at," he said. "On the other hand, we have a $10 to $11 trillion economy" so proportionately, it's a small impact.

  The burden on social services is nothing to be sneezed at either.

  If you say a study is debunked, please site your source. Otherwise please phrase it as your opinion.

  This is my opinion:
  If there was a magic button and all illegals and their children where suddenly back in South America there would be some negative issues that would be fixed and positvie issues that would return.

  I will be happy to cut my grass on a Saturday afternoon and talk to my neighbors doing the same.

  I will really be happy when all the ugly graffiti is finally gone and my local emergency room is a viable place to go in a medical emergency because it's not overloaded.

  People can come here to work in so many ways it's amazing. I just don't buy any of the BS anymore. I used to but I don't .
  Here is how just about anyone can come here to work.
  This is it for me. You guys do your own research. Better yet, just keep pushing your thoughts as facts.

  H1A Visa: Registered Nurses coming for temporary employment

  
  H1B Visa: Covers two types of temporary employment -- those in specialty occupations that require college or advanced degree at minimum entry-level and artists, entertainers, athletes and fashion models of distinguished merit and ability along with persons assisting in their performances.
  Note: All entertainers will need this H1B visa unless they are going on a U.S. Government sponsored cultural exchange.

  
  H2A Visa: Temporary or seasonal agriculture workers.

  
  H2B Visa: Persons coming to fill temporary jobs that could not be filled by U.S. citizens or residents.

  
  H3 Visa: For professional job trainees or internships in an American company or in the U.S. office of a foreign company.

  
  L Visa: Managers or executives of multinational corporations, transferred to the company's U.S. office.
  Note: There is a new USD 500 processing fee applicable to all Blanket L1 visa applicants. This fee is payable to the U.S. Embassy Budapest at the time of application. This fee only applies to Blanket L1 visa applicants and does not apply to individual L visa applicants.

  
  O Visa: Persons of sustained national or international acclaim in the sciences, arts, education, business or athletics coming to the U.S. to work or perform in that field.

  
  P Visa: Artists, entertainers and athletes recognized at an international level; artists and entertainers performing under a reciprocal agreement between the U.S. and their country; or artists and entertainers whose performances are considered culturally unique.
  Note: Athletes and entertainers who do NOT qualify in the O or P categories must seek H1B status.

  
  Q Visa: Participants in international cultural exchange programs for the purpose of providing practical training, employment and the sharing of history, culture and traditions of one's home country.

  I guess it's eaiser to steal and cheat your way in?
  Good freaking God!
  

• December 15, 2006

  12:30 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "looks like we can now add mysogynistic to the list of David Hakala's other redeeming qualities. Only an abusive jerk would namecall and defame character based on someone else's childhood."

  "Mysogynistic", my ass. I like women in general. Venomous harridans are another matter entirely.

  As for blaming Fiesty's childhood for her present state, it would not be PC to imply that it's her own damned fault!

• December 15, 2006

  12:37 PM

  gr8fuldude writes:

  Well, by that standard, you must have real issues with Shrill Harpy of the House Pelosi, no?

• December 15, 2006

  12:42 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "First, we had the 1986 amnesty movement that made 3 million illegals. As a result, we now have an estimated 9-11 in this country. Do you really think amnesty is the answer?"

  The answer to what? Amnesty certainly is the answer to an unenforceable law that works more harm than good. Neither the law nor amnesty for its violators will stop people from coming to the U. S.

  "Second, don't you think the lax enforcement of our borders laws isn't contributed to the sheer magnitude of the problem?"

  What problem?

  "Third, if you are pro-illegal immigrants, what about the almost exponetial growth and projected future numbers? Is this not alarming? Do you really think our economy can support that?"

  I'm pro-growth, not pro-illegal immigration. Our economy cannot survive, let alone grow, without ever-increasing influxes of cheap labor willing to do dirty jobs. If you want proof, just look at where we're sending all the dirty jobs we can - where there's cheap labor.

  Don't you ever watch Mike Rowe on Discovery Channel?

• December 15, 2006

  12:44 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "you must have real issues with Shrill Harpy of the House Pelosi, no?"

  I've never heard the woman speak. I'm a text guy.

• December 15, 2006

  12:47 PM

  gr8fuldude writes:

  Try to imagine Bob Dylan in his younger years after having been kicked hard in the groin...

• December 15, 2006

  12:47 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  12:13 - you may have noticed (or not), that no mention was made to harm the population of Mexico, or people of Mexican descent that live in the US or elsewhere.

  The whole point (even though it was totally a joke) was to simply help Mexico get out of their rut. What rut is that, you may ask? The rut that has seen their government be corrupt since its beginning. There has never been a time that Mexico didn't have a corrupt government - none!

  And because of this, her people suffer and are taken advantage of, kept poor and poverty stricken, and largely uneducated past 4th grade for males, 6th grade for females.

  Given the facts, I would think that the citizens of Mexico would actually embrace a takeover as something that would improve the lives of all. If this is not so, then why are so many of your countrymen risking their very lives to come here to work and live? I was simply suggesting that we make it "official". If you're all going to come here anyway, Mexico might just as well be part of the country and her citizens enjoy all of the rights and responsibilities that come with it.

  Sure sounds fairer to me than paying into our social programs for people to use who may not be contributing anything to them. But believe me, I understand the mentality that says, "If you're going to give it away, I'm going to take it.", and I don't find it the fault of the illegals - I find it the fault of our government - a complete and utter breakdown in the system.

• December 15, 2006

  1:00 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  David Hakala - what makes you think that Fiesty is a girl? Just curious if it's an assumption or info from previous blogs.

• December 15, 2006

  2:26 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Let's clarify the issue:

  1. ANY person purchasing, or stealing, or not even having documents to work in the US is here ILLEGALLY. This is NOT rocket science, folks. Why is this so difficult for people to get?

  2. Any person who BUYS, STEALS, and USES documents to work here illegally KNOWS they shouldn't be doing so.

  3. Any person who is here illegally, whether they want or need a job, is STILL breaking the LAW, and must deal with the consequences! Why are so many people defending those who LIE, CHEAT, AND STEAL to be in the United States?

  4. Rounding up illegals duiring the holidays brings forth a torrent of sympathy, which is displaced! How about the folks suffering because their IDENTIY was stolen?

  5. Why did those here illegally not have a plan in place IN CASE this happened? They've put their families in jeopardy, and now those left behind will need public assistance. They'll get it, too--and the rest of us will pay even more for them being here illegally. Just watch.

• December 15, 2006

  2:37 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  ICE needs to finish the the job they started. We need a major raid on the White House, and get Bush, Cheney, and the rest of the Republican AND Democrat mega-conglomerate business owners who do the wink-wink thing and knowingly keep employing illegals into the bus and outta here! Yep, Bush and Cheney, on the bus, NOW. And they can take brutha Jeb down in Florida with 'em!

• December 15, 2006

  3:25 PM

  jay writes:

  12:30.
  See posting from Snopes earlier this morning. Huddle’s study is specifically mentioned at the bottom of the page. Next time read before you type.

  As far as the rest of your posting...thanks for listing some ideas, I'll try to be brief and just hit a couple of major points...I'm not saying most of it was fluff...but...here are the big things:

  "On the other hand, we have a $10 to $11 trillion economy" so proportionately, it's a small impact. "

  First of all, it is simply not that simple or factual in any way shape or form. I'm not picking on you, but the illegal immigration issue can't be put in neat little boxes and checked of like a checklist. For example, we garner revenue through the increase in corporate profit margins that take advantage of our cheap labor pool...which contributes to corporate tax revenues....which are 13% of all federal receipts. See where this is headed? The same can be said for the tax revenues in municipalities and states in the form of business income taxes and sales taxes, payroll taxes, etc. Those are just two examples...I encourage you to invest a little more time doing some research on the complete financial impact of the cheap labor force represented by illegal immigration. The total impact is far greater than 10 Billion in net GDP. Hope that helps.

  "I will really be happy when all the ugly graffiti is finally gone and my local emergency room is a viable place to go in a medical emergency because it's not overloaded."

  Why would you single out hispanics as the sole group that contributes to the graffiti problem? Graffiti is done by all races...and certainly won't be "finally gone" if the hispanics are mass deported. I almost thought you were kidding when I read that.

  Secondly, hispanics represent about 5% of total hospital and emergency room visits nationwide. It is a VERY small issue in the much larger problem of our healthcare system failures. If you are upset about the state of our healthcare system, I again recommend you do some more reading because you’re not looking at the big picture. Scapegoating the illegal immigrants is simply propaganda from the far right…no need to be their footsoilder by repeating it for them.

  "People can come here to work in so many ways it's amazing."

  Finally, this is more propaganda. I wouldn't be surprised to hear this come out of a deportation supporter's mouth on a round table on Fox News. The visas you list wouldn't help 90% of our illegal workforce in our current system...ever...if not for many years.

  Next time try to present facts as thoughts….instead of accusing others of presenting thoughts as facts.

• December 15, 2006

  3:47 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  David dude it's crazy that you got balls to call fiesty venomous, you know what the word hypocrite means right?... she seems like a lady under pressure but you are an a$$hole

• December 15, 2006

  3:57 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Thanks for weighing in Sybil I mean Fiesty

• December 15, 2006

  3:58 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Look more illegal aliens being busted for breaking laws:
  http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/12/15/bosnian.serbs/index.html

• December 15, 2006

  4:33 PM

  Pancho Villa writes:

  !Viva la migra otra vez! Que nos completan el trabajo. Vete pinche mojado cagado.

• December 15, 2006

  4:50 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  and, for those of you who speak English, because IT IS the language of America, here is a translation of Mr. Villa's lovely, enlightening, and encouraging words:

  "! Alive emigrates it again! That they complete us the work. You see you darn wet shit. " - obtained at www.freetranslation.com

• December 15, 2006

  4:59 PM

  jay writes:

  you're obviously not a golfer

• December 15, 2006

  5:32 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Arnie, you crack me up man.

• December 15, 2006

  7:24 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Wanna bet Swift undermined the raid. . . sure they did!! Swift probably told their "good" illegal workers to stay home that day and left all the slackers to get picked up so the slackers and their families could twist in the wind. Is this a great country or what?

• December 15, 2006

  9:45 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  jay is yet another one of those "figures lie, and liars can figure with statistics" types. The statement: ". . .hispanics represent about 5% of total hospital and emergency room visits nationwide. It is a VERY small issue in the much larger problem of our healthcare system failures. . ." is complete and utter BS!!

  How about dealing truthfully with numbers, jay? The "issue" with ER visits and hospital stays for illegals has to be taken into context and compared, apples to apples, with PUBLIC hospitals, clinics, and typical PUBLIC healthcare facilities since that's where most illegals end up, because they DON'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE. Then we have LEGAL CITIZENS who end up taking low-paying jobs WITHOUT healthcare benefits--who suffer and ADD to the ranks of those above-mentioned hospital visits, because they CAN"T get jobs with health benefits thanks to illegals working for zip and no benefits. DUH!

  And cut the crap about everybody else not using data properly, cheater-boy!

• December 15, 2006

  10:18 PM

  Ken writes:

  The next raid should take place on CINCO DE MAYO. That way they can take their flag back with them. The only flag that should be flying is the RED, WHITE and Blue. Our fore fathers faught and died for.

  I'm in great hopes that more will be rounded up and sent back.

  Years ago I worked for Sterling Colorado Beef, I know for a fact that when they were raided they called the illegals and told them not to come to work. I was white and at the time was more then happy to work in a beef plant and did not like to work with Illegals. There was a lot of American Citizens that needed a job and wasn't hired because of the illegals.

• December 16, 2006

  6:40 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  As a Christian who was born, grew up and spent 30 years on a county that bordered Mexico, I feel I can safely reply to the saying of "What would Jesus Do?" with ....he would build a security fence and deport illegal aliens.

• December 16, 2006

  11:58 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Charity Begins at Home.
  Read your Bible!

• December 16, 2006

  12:22 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Charity DOES begin at home! Time to get that wall built to keep illegals from suffering the inconvenience of a bus/plane trip home!

  China built the Great Wall for a REASON. Take Heed!

• December 16, 2006

  12:44 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "China built the Great Wall for a REASON. "

  Yeah... to keep the Mongols, Huns, and Turks out. Didn't work. :-)

  You wallbangers haven't paid any attention to the news, have you? A 700-mile stretch of wall has been *authorized* by Congress, not *mandated*. The same bill allows President Antichrist to use the $1.something billion appropriated for basically anything he wishes: guards, drone surveillance aircraft, heat sensors... "virtual wall" stuff. There isn't going to be any Great Wall of Arizona.

  Ironically, Golden State Fence Co., which built much of San Diego's 14-mile border fence in the 1990s, just got nailed for employing undocumented workers. :-)

• December 16, 2006

  12:49 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "Charity Begins at Home. Read your Bible!"

  That's not in the Bible, meathead.

  http://www.thewordsofeternallife.com/quotations_not_found.html

• December 16, 2006

  12:50 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "As a Christian who was born, grew up and spent 30 years on a county that bordered Mexico, I feel I can safely reply to the saying of "What would Jesus Do?" with ....he would build a security fence and deport illegal aliens."

  Bzzzt! Wrong answer!

  Try being born again.

• December 16, 2006

  1:56 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Well, Mike Litwin, Jim Spencer, and David Hakala can all wax poetic and sympathetic to the so-called "plight" of illegals. . . WHY? Because they ride the same elevators and walk the same halls with illegal employees and their hispanic/latino/whatevers at the Denver Newspaper Agency!!

  And you know what? Litwin, Spencer and Hakala make so damn much money they've HIRED illegals to do the dirty work THEY can't or won't do at home!! So now these bimbos want the REST of US to feel sorry for people who swarm into the US by the thousands from Mexico et al and demand "rights" LEGAL citizens don't even get!! GIVE ME A BREAK.

• December 16, 2006

  2:27 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  The Bible does not teach you to seek out the poor in other places or feel a debt toward them. God defines debts of mercy and charity, not social do-gooders or televangelists. Godly men have a debt first to the household of faith, where they are to provide for poor saints in their own local church and then in other places (Matt 10:42; 25:40; Acts 2:44-45; 4:34-35; 11:29; Rom 15:26; I Cor 16:1; II Cor 8:4; Gal 6:10; Philemon 1:5; I Pet 4:9).

  Proverbs 3:27

  http://www.letgodbetrue.com/proverbs/03_27.htm

  When you see "Not Found" in the URL it just means the test is not on the site.
  Those who can't Google should not.

  I thought I smelled the stink of the DP on this blog. They learned their yellow journalism from the LA Times
  Good ole' Jim Spencer. He knows where his bread is buttered.
  

• December 16, 2006

  2:31 PM

  "I write what they tell me!" writes:

  Makes a person wonder when the people writing the stories cannot research correctly.
  

• December 16, 2006

  3:12 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  "You wallbangers haven't paid any attention to the news, have you? "700-mile stretch of wall has been *authorized* by Congress, not *mandated*. The same bill allows President Antichrist to use the $1.something billion appropriated for basically anything he wishes: guards, drone surveillance aircraft, heat sensors... "virtual wall" stuff. There isn't going to be any Great Wall of Arizona."

  David,
  Yep, we know. It was a feel good measure for the Nov. 7 election.
  I wonder when you DP people are going to think about the one people who are really being affected?
  The Black American. Sold into slavery and abused for generations they are being displaced by illegal immigration and this could be the last blow to them.
  Oh, wait! Not enough of them to make a difference to you or our elected officals in Colorado.
  When is the DP doing to put you guys in the Opinon section?
  I"m not a Bush lover but Anti-Christ?
  If you do in fact work at the DP, then say so...
  If not say so.

  PS. I say we have chain gangs to build the chain link fence and then 100 yards deep another one and inbetween landmines and a Ma Duce every 500 yards.
  Tunnels?
  We can get the Tunnel Rats from Vietnam to train the new breed.
  HooRaa

• December 16, 2006

  4:01 PM

  Christian from border writes:

  I guess it will take fire and scorched earth until liberal enablers finally understand. I can't really blame illegals. "It" is there for the taking. When my tax dollars are going to support the subversion of my country, race and heritage through the conduit of feel-good-self serving and self rightgeous lefties/liberals, somethings gonna give. Having many friends who are Mexican in my home county, this is unfortunate, when we brake bread and the wine begins to flow freely and take effect, the tongue reveals that blood is thicker than water. Why are liberals so ignorant about innate humanity? It will be a sad day when I have to take up arms against what will have become former friends and neighbors. Maybe we should be proactive and neutralize the above forementioned bleeding hearts lefties. What a mess. And yes, this includes the influence of church groups.

• December 16, 2006

  4:25 PM

  jay writes:

  "How about dealing truthfully with numbers, jay? "

  How ironic you say that and then post no data at all to substantiate your point. Brilliant.

  You're stating the obvious...yes...illegal immigration impacts our heatlhcare, school and social service systems....I never said it didn't. I am simply aware of the fact that the overall visits to our heatlhcare system are 2000% more likely to be an american citizen than an illegal immigrant...and nearly 500% more likely to be an uninsured American citizen than an unisured illegal immigrant.

  My point is that we shouldn't blame our failing healthcare, school and social service systems on illegal immigration. The numbers just don't add up. If you're in to numbers that is....but then again, some people feel the need to put emotion into the the debate about this issue.

  I'm sorry my numbers upset you...don't take it personally.

• December 16, 2006

  4:55 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Jay,
  I see you are backin' up a bit here.
  Again, no data on your analysis. Just thoughts that show a thought process of "Well, the ratio is there so all processess follow that ratio."
  Right? Anyone?
  Makes sense?
  Nope.
  Sorry man but it's pathetic.
  

• December 16, 2006

  5:03 PM

  Darwin writes:

  Jay, Jw, Hakala, Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks your assholes.

• December 16, 2006

  7:37 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "Jay, Jw, Hakala, Jesus loves you. Everyone else thinks your assholes."

  "In the matter of a difficult question, it is more likely that the correct answer will be derived by the few than by the many." ~ Renee DesCartes.

• December 16, 2006

  8:45 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  "Sold into slavery and abused for generations (blacks) are being displaced by illegal immigration and this could be the last blow to them."

  You say that like it's a bad thing. Evolutionary pressure is good. We homo sapiens wouldn't be here without it.

  All men are created equal, just as all entrants in a foot race start from the same line. But when the starting gun goes off, the race goes to the swiftest.

  Here are some of the fatuous arguments that blacks advance:

  http://www.chronwatch.com/content/contentDisplay.asp?aid=7592

  "(I)llegal immigration is taking jobs away from Black Americans, cutting into resources available for welfare, and restructuring public schools and many urban areas."

  Show me an employer who fires a black person to hire an illegal immigrant. That's "taking jobs away". You don't lose a job that you don't have. Blacks are supposed to have first dibs on welfare? Restructuring public schools is bad how?

  ''''This once predominantly Black neighborhood is becoming largely Hispanic. South Central (Los Angeles) is being transformed. Here we talk about 'Black flight.' People are leaving neighborhoods where they have lived for years because they don't feel like they belong any more.'"

  Right. Blacks really want to remain in the good old neighborhood that has "become almost synonymous with urban decay and street crime."

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Central_Los_Angeles

  All of those Hispancis are illegals? I suppose one remedy would be housing discrimination. It would have to be applied equally everywhere, of course.

  "The most racist policy in this country for the past 25 years has been our immigration policy, because it has been the worst thing that has happened to Blacks from the federal government since slavery.''

  Whatever hurts blacks is racially motivated and originates from white men. Of course.

  Ironically, the immigration debate illustrates the fundamental equality of mankind. What do Hispanics, blacks, and white supremacists have in common? They all want to preserve their cultural identities and the privileges attendant thereto.

  The Hispanic v. black competition moves me about as much as the displacement of the Preble's meadow jumping mouse by the (fictitious) Keebler pasture hopping mouse.

• December 16, 2006

  9:07 PM

  David Hakala writes:

  Look, you "charity begins at home" nimrods, you don't have to misrepresent the Bible to support your point. It's perfectly logical in a purely secular humanistic context. Yes, the sentiment is "liberal"! :-)

  If you have nothing to give, then it is impossible to give to others. So one's first duty as a charitable person is to get as much as one can for one's self. Then you have the most to give to others.

  Every large philanthropic foundation is endowed by the wealth of cutthroat capitalists. The Carnegie Foundation. The Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation. The (Tim) Gill Foundation. Keep going.

  Charity is enabled only by the art of selfishness. See the classic book on the subject, by David Seabury:

  http://tinyurl.com/y9ejst

• December 16, 2006

  9:44 PM

  jay writes:

  No clue what you just said. come back and see me when you can form complete thoughts with data.

  No one is denying that illegal immigration impacts our systems...just don't take it personal that I shoot down your right wing nut propaganda.

• December 17, 2006

  10:22 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  David and Jay,
  If you can’t post without using derogatory remarks perhaps you should not post at all.
  I mean, come on. To Jay everyone who wants him to base his thoughts on facts is a right-wing nut. Jay, you have been asked to post your sources and then you ask us to come back with data. So you like to turn stuff around on people. Classic debating mistake that will get you an F in debating 101. You call us right-wing nuts and then say don’t take it personal. Don’t personalize it then.
  
  David calls people Nimrods and “Wallbangers”? I guess anyone who contends that a porous border is not a very good idea is a “Wallbanger”.

  Also how can you tell a person's political leanings from a post? You lump everyone into what fits your thought process.

  I will refrain from saying what is in my mind. That’s called self-control.
  

• December 17, 2006

  3:24 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Here we go:

  I say we bring the troops home from Iraq, and we invade Mexico. After we depose and execute el presidente and everyone who talks to him, we carve the nation up into 10 or so reasonably sized states, making them the 51st through 60th states. We fix our oil problem, we tap into huge deposits of precious metals, we make citizens out of their entire population, and we kill off their corrupt and vile leadership.

  No more illegal immigration problems from Mexico, plenty of people for the world's leading workforce, we will have fixed a huge poverty problem in our own hemisphere, and opened the doors of opportunity to educate millions. And think of all that ocean-front property.

  What say ye?

  YES! YES! YES! It's LONG overdue!

• December 17, 2006

  3:25 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  WHY are we in Iraq when May-hee-co is ripe for the picking!?

• December 17, 2006

  5:23 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  This blog would increase a 100 IQ points if jay, JW and Hakula would stop posting.

• December 17, 2006

  5:36 PM

  Anonymous writes:

  Those jobs pay $14-$18 an hour now and should go to legal residents! The Swift plant in Greeley had 250 plus applicants after the raid. I am glad the illegals got the boot.

• December 18, 2006

  9:58 AM

  jay writes:

  Crouton,
  I already referenced my source that you asked for...read it again. I've never shirked from providing sources for my facts. Until you can do the same, I'll ask you refer your hostile rhetoric to someone else

  Again, please don’t pout when people on this blog shoot down your far right talking points.

• December 18, 2006

  3:42 PM

  Open Minded writes:

  Jay,
  Most of your posts site zero sources for your facts.
  When called for it you whine that others should site their sources.
  You would be stunned if you saw my voting record. Liberal and proud.
  However, I know that I cannot help anyone if I cannot find a job. Been pounding the pavement for 18 months with a College Degree and many years of experience.
  I have put food on the table by working the jobs I have been told I won't work.
  Once I had the hiring manager wanting me to start asap. He was shot down by HR because I did not know Spanish.
  No problem, I keep at it. However, I'm seeing the ramifications of un-checked immigration not only as I look for work but in the community I have lived in.
  I agree with a lot of these posts that we cannot just let millions of people walk across the border.
  A lot of these posts have very good and well researched thoughts. I don't know why you are having such a rough time with seeing some of the points.
  I feel that you are stuck on your way of thinking and cannot open your mind to other possibilities.
  I did notice on a web page that our trade deficit is the worst in history.
  We are burning the candle from both ends and I fear that I may see the demise of the most viable middle-class in history.
  Just my opinion.
  Who ever said you should tone down the insults was correct. You should.
  I'm not shooting your thoughts down I just feel you are not able to accept other people without lower yourself to insults.
  This going to become a lot worse before it becomes better so I'm guessing you are sitting pretty because you don't seem worried that if you are wrong you could end up living like the very people you feel we should help.

• December 18, 2006

  4:13 PM

  jay writes:

  OM,
  You must not have been reading this blog long, because I always provide sources when asked. If you have a question about something, just let me know.

  Furthermore, I don't insult folks that don't insult me. I might say that right wing nuts push certain types of propaganda. If you fall in to that category, so be it. I never go out of my way on this blog to be hostile to someone that wasn't hostile to be in the first place. Do a little more reading and I think you'll find that to be true.

  I'm not sure which points you think I"m not getting...but feel free to provide a list.

  Sorry to hear about your troubles getting a job. I own a recruiting firm and biz is good...might be you.

• December 18, 2006

  10:02 PM

  White Assertiveness writes:

  Hakala 12-16-06 @ 8:45. White Supremacist? If whites want to preserve their cultural identity? You are simply regurgitating what the diversity Nazis taught you on campus then convince you, that your are enlightened. White guilt is becoming out of vogue. Nice try on trying to continue it. If preserving white culture and the priviledges that it brings is Supremacist, count me in. Night of the Long Knives!

• December 19, 2006

  9:16 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  Jay,
  See. Insults. You attack me on a personal level.
  I guess all the people displaced by Sun/StorageTek/IBM/Seagate are losers as well.
  Many of us have been out of work for months if not longer. Of couse my age may have something to do with it.
  I guess I will lower myself to your level.
  You are a Freaking Asshole.
  Clearly by the posts others feel the same way.
  My guess is you don't own anything and are a shut-in with a internet connection.
  With any luck some banger will cap your ass and rid the world of another useless piece of crap.

• December 19, 2006

  9:42 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  I don't mean to butt in here, but Jay has you there. Your point about not getting a job because you have to compete with illegal immigrants is bullshit. When was the last time you saw an illegal immigrant competing for a tech job up in Interlocken? Moron. Jay is right, do not pout because you freaks get your talking points shot down like the lame ducks they are. Morons.

• December 19, 2006

  11:44 AM

  Anonymous writes:

  ROFL

  Jay was right. It is you. That is not an insult. That is calling it like it is.

• December 19, 2006

  1:54 PM

  Kristallnacht – 'the night of broken glass" writes:

  Jay,
  Dude, the timing of the posts with no name kind of point to you stuffing the ballot box.
  I think White Assertiveness has got his history down. Hey White, I will be out there with you on the next night of the long knifes!
  Open Minded - Better wake up dude! Jay-Bird and his like are feeding off the illegals. They don't give a crap about the USA or you.