January 31, 2007 6:26 AM
Pay-as-you-go to dig up the snow?
City snowplows didn't clear the icy and rutted streets in the Crestmoor neighborhood so residents reached for their checkbooks, reports Daniel J. Chacon.
The Crestmoor Park Homeowners Association-Filing 2, an affluent neighborhood in east Denver, gave up on city government and hired an independent contractor to clear some of their streets.The neighborhood expects to pay up to $10,000 for the work. The money will come from the $75-a-year dues homeowners pay to the association.
Residents had little choice, said HOA President John Sadwith.
The Public Works Department "said they'd be out there in two days and they never came," he said.
A city worker tried to stop the contractors from plowing streets but was unaware of a roposed change that requires private contractors to pull a permit before clearing a city right of way.
So is this what it's come to? Those who can afford to clear their own streets drive unimpeded, the rest of us bounce along on a moonscape.
PREVIOUSLYWe need the moisture. Snowscapes are lovely, especially at night. The ski industry is loving it. You can finally tell your friends and relatives back in the midwest that our weather is worse than theirs. Maybe your mechanic and alignment guy will take you along when he vacations in Cancun since you're paying for the vacation..
Denver is spending $1 million a week on snow removal and can't begin to get to all the impacted streets. The burbs are no better. In my Jefferson County neighborhood, the streets are a hazard to living creatures. Nearly foot-deep (I measured) holes in the ice make driving a crawling nightmare. I drive several blocks out of the way to get to the street in front of the neighborhood school that has been plowed, then cut through a swimming pool parking lot to cut another block off the moonscape.
Historic storms have sometimes exacted political consequences, report Lou Kilzer and Daniel J. Chacon.
Perhaps with that in mind, Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper on Tuesday fought back hard against criticism, calling the current five- storm surge "unparalleled" and pledging to spend big bucks to assure that the city's side-street ice ruts are never so deep again.He couldn't say how much that would cost, but the city is spending close to $1 million a week in its current campaign against snow and ice.
The city has never seen so much snow wedded to so many subfreezing nights, the mayor said.
Have the weather conditions simply overpowered local efforts to clean the streets? How bad is your street? Had any damage to your vehicle because of the snow? Got any creative snow-removal solutions?
January 31, 2007
8:08 AM
LeftWingKOOK writes:
If Bush, Cheney, and Rove would use their evil weather control machine to melt the snow and ice instead of creating tsunamis to kill Muslims, and hurricanes to kill the black people in New Orleans, and drought to kill the Africans, we would be better off!!!
January 31, 2007
8:14 AM
Anonymous writes:
I grew up in Minnesota and I have to say this is one of the worst winters even I can remember!
ENOUGH ALREADY!
January 31, 2007
8:18 AM
Anonymous writes:
One million dollars a week to do nothing?! Nice work if you can get it.
But you have to admit, the mayor does pay attention to the hard hitting topics that affect us all, like special rights for gays.
Recall him!
January 31, 2007
8:18 AM
Snow KING writes:
I think to augment the number of plows, we should put shovels in the hands of criminals and make them dig streets out, one by one.
January 31, 2007
8:37 AM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
Denver, DIA and RTD all get an F on snow removal. It has been 6 weeks since the first big snow, and still RTD has parking spots filled with plowed snow at the overflow lot at Littleton Mineral Station.
For the streets that have become ice skating rinks, why don't they get one of these trucks with the propane pavement warming systems used to fix pavement irregularities?
It seems they are so used to having the sun do the work, they are simply incapable of doing the job.
Larry the Cable guy says "Getter done!" or get someone who will.
January 31, 2007
8:55 AM
JW writes:
"It seems they are so used to having the sun do the work, they are simply incapable of doing the job."
Hmm. So Hogar, you would vote for a tax to fund the equipment we need to deal with this kind of snow every 3-5 years? Even though the rest of the time it will sit useless because the sun DOES do the job?
January 31, 2007
9:01 AM
Anonymous writes:
It's not necessary to raise taxes for this...just use what is being raised by 1A. Illeagals could care less about education anyway.
January 31, 2007
9:05 AM
jay writes:
I grew up in the Midwest....even I can't remember back to back to back to back to back to back storms like this....seems like we can give the guy a pass for extenuating circumstances. Besides...my taxes don't need to go up to pay for equipment that will go unused the vast majority of the time. To the whiners with political agendas...this is Colorado...it snows...I hear Arizona is taking applications.
January 31, 2007
9:05 AM
Anonymous writes:
Oh Please. Hickenlooper has the nerve to run a full-page suckup ad "congratulating" our city street workers for working so hard. Isn't that their JOB?
The whole storm response system is a mess. The first storm happened during the week before Christmas, when city street workers were getting up to *yawn* face another day, unprepared as usual, heading out for Christmas vacation --which is every day. Why weren't city employees mobilized properly for our first snow emergency?
Bottom line: the city, with Hickenlooper in charge, failed miserably. Hickenlooper and his "brain trust" including manager of public works Vidal need to GO.
The FIRST order of business for Denver is BE PREPARED. This means 24/7 plowing and shoveling until streets are clear so that additional snowfall melts evenly enough to not cause 4 to 6-inch deep ruts.
Hickenlooper needs to STOP WHINING that this was the "worst storm ever" and STOP WASTING MONEY on CONSULTANTS FOR EVERYTHING and put OUR money toward the REAL WORK of maintaining DENVER--NOT setting up his next campaign while he continues to figure out how to weasel out of the mayor's BASIC JOB RESPONSIBILITIES!
Oh--anyone notice Hickenlooper's beer joints had real good access?
January 31, 2007
9:08 AM
Colin Powell writes:
Sure beats the $2 Billion a week we're spending in Iraq.
Can I say I told you so now?
January 31, 2007
9:09 AM
JW writes:
"The FIRST order of business for Denver is BE PREPARED."
Then vote for a tax hike so they have the funds to do it.
January 31, 2007
9:13 AM
Snow KING writes:
I am tell you guyz, prison labor is the answer!!
January 31, 2007
9:26 AM
Anonymous writes:
What kind of idiocy is this "tax hike" talk? NO, WE DO NOT NEED A TAX HIKE for snow removal
What we DO need, is wise use of city monetary resources, which Hickenlooper is incapable of managing and utilizing. Instead, Hickenlooper has squandered hundreds of thousands of dollars on "consultants" to keep himself in the press as an "energetic good guy and political darling. And that's the truth.
January 31, 2007
9:32 AM
JW writes:
Really? You know for a fact that the consultants Hick uses aren't worth the money?
And the city has a BUDGET. They set aside a portion of $$$ for snow removal, which includes the pay for employees, upkeep for equipment, etc. When that budget is made to be as low as possible, and when we usually don't need that much snow removed because the sun does it, well...this is what you get. Not enough equipment or budget every 3-5 years when we get more snow than usual.
This isnt brain surgery. If you dont want to pay taxes, don't expect govt to cater to your every need.
But I am unsurprised. Its all "No Taxes" when you think those taxes go to social services for "Dead beat Poor". Then, when the govt. cant fund some service YOU want, its "Heads must roll! Failure failure failure!"
Stupid.
January 31, 2007
9:32 AM
Mayor Hick writes:
Dear feoolw citizens of Denver:
My priorities for my tenure in office:
Special rights for gays: This is a critical issue of importance that affects us all.
Free preschool for illegals: This is critical if Denver is to retain its pre-eminent role as the west's sanctuary city, and I can maintain a steady supply of cop killing underpaid dishwashers.
Basic services for citizens: Not so much. Grab a shovel, then get down to the cricket.
January 31, 2007
9:33 AM
Anonymous writes:
the tinfoil hat brigade forgot the meds again today
January 31, 2007
9:51 AM
Irony Town USA writes:
A. We know what our tax rate is.
B. We know our gov. employees make a good financial living with even better benefits than the private sector.
C. We know gov. will spend money to upgrade their personal work force and add buildings and company car bennefits as "they" seem fit.
D. We know our gov. employees have special paid holidays, another bonus perk.
E. We know some gov. employees can authorize their own departments cash bonuses...aka Jefferson county in the news.
F. We know what our City gov. cannot do:
- Provide us with a voting democracy without glitches. A % of our registered voters could not even vote in the last election due to no fault of their own.
- Provide us with basic city services, such as snow plowing side streets after a snow storm. A snow storm in a city that sells itself as SKI TOWN DESTINATION USA.
- Irony town USA
January 31, 2007
10:05 AM
Anonymous writes:
"We know our gov. employees make a good financial living "
You have obviously never worked for the government
January 31, 2007
10:09 AM
Irony writes:
10:05-
Obviously you haven't worked for your new employer, Walmart.
January 31, 2007
10:11 AM
Mayor Hick writes:
Fellow citizens, you obviously don't understand the real reason for the snow removal...It's the snow. As soon as the weather gets warmer, the snow will be removed. Do not worry, all is in my capable hands. Now go have a beer at the Wynkoop. Ask for the footsoldiers/apologists discount.
January 31, 2007
10:17 AM
Anonymous writes:
The problem with BASIC MAINTENANCE SERVICES will NOT be helped by HIGHER TAXES, genius!
It's called the usual shell game of budgeting. NO MORE WASTED MONEY FOR CONSULTANTS. MOVE ANY "EXTRA" MONEY over to PAY FOR BASIC STREET MAINTENANCE SERVICES, genius
Welfare, Section 8 housing payments for illegals, etc. can and MUST be reduced/cut off IMMEDIATELY--if the Ford 150 gets repo'd, so be it. And all those whiners who think they are "poor underpaid government workers" can think again. They can trundle their butts over to any hospital where they will be
1. Required to show up
2. Required to WORK
3. Required to meet the needs of the PUBLIC over their OWN needs--24/7.
January 31, 2007
10:21 AM
jay writes:
Where in the universe of fuzzy math do we get to have more resources for snow removal without raising taxes? Are they from the same solar system as the ever popular Republican deficit spending?
January 31, 2007
10:33 AM
JW writes:
"The problem with BASIC MAINTENANCE SERVICES will NOT be helped by HIGHER TAXES, genius!
It's called the usual shell game of budgeting. NO MORE WASTED MONEY FOR CONSULTANTS. MOVE ANY "EXTRA" MONEY over to PAY FOR BASIC STREET MAINTENANCE SERVICES, genius"
This kind of thing always makes me think of Super Troopers-
"Used to be we'd take a guy like you out back and beat you with a rubber hose. Now you got your god damn unions..."
January 31, 2007
10:44 AM
Anonymous writes:
JW has all the answers, yet no solution except to raise taxes. I think NOT. Goody! We'll just get MORE inept city workers with inept leadership? I think NOT.
January 31, 2007
10:47 AM
What snow? writes:
Sucks to live in the smog tank eh?
January 31, 2007
10:49 AM
JW writes:
"Goody! We'll just get MORE inept city workers with inept leadership? I think NOT."
The only increase in taxes Im talking about would be for more plows, more $$$ to maintain them, and more $$$ to pay extra drivers when they are needed.
Of course, the other option is to quit your sissy bitching, and deal with some Ice on your road. Pansy.
Blaming this on Hick is just stupid. We don't finance a snow removal team for this kind of thing. We finance a team for removing the normal amounts of snow we get. That means....if you get a year like this, they aren't prepared.
You really are dumber than dirt.
January 31, 2007
10:50 AM
Anonymous writes:
You mean LA, Houston or Salt Lake?
January 31, 2007
11:11 AM
David Hakala writes:
"It has been 6 weeks since the first big snow, and still RTD has parking spots filled with plowed snow at the overflow lot at Littleton Mineral Station."
Where do you think they should put it, Hogar?
January 31, 2007
11:40 AM
Sunny writes:
I have to agree with Snow King on this one. We have serious overcrowding in our county jail...why not let some of the inmates who are there for piddly stuff (smoking a joint, bouncing a check, unpaid traffic tickets, etc) do some work-release removing the snow and get out of the way so there are more spaces available for hard-core felons like dealers, rapists, bangers, etc.
As much as I can be "Liberal" on a lot of matters, I really think we need to bring back some of the hard labor sentences - it would save the city some money, and what better time to start than now with all of the snow?
January 31, 2007
12:01 PM
David (R) writes:
I just skimmed through some of the posts on this thread, and I saw something about the possibility of a "tax hike" to cover the additional expenses for snow management.
I would point out that we all lost our rebates under the Tax Payer's Bill of Rights (TABOR) for the next five years, amounting to hundreds of millions of dollars per year in additional revenue for government. I say they should use some of that, and if they've squandered it away, then let some government payroll at the executive level be the first to feel the pain.
January 31, 2007
12:05 PM
David (R) writes:
And, by the way, I do agree with the point that this is part of the Rocky Mountain region, and as such, we're going to get snow, sometimes heavier than others. This year it happened like in 1997, 1993, 1983, and 1982 (events since I arrived). This is no more the govs or mayors fault than it is Harry Palms, mine, or Cat Stevens. We just all have to deal with it the best we can and be thankful the main roads and highways are pretty clean.
January 31, 2007
12:11 PM
benn writes:
Boulder County uses lots of prisoner-work programs. I always see them out on Pearl cleaning up leaves or mainiting the trails... I think it's great.
January 31, 2007
12:13 PM
Mark's Fan writes:
You think with all of the hot air that is generated by politicians and various bloggers that the snow would be melted by now.
January 31, 2007
12:17 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
Where do you think they should put it, Hogar?
Posted by David Hakala on January 31, 2007 11:11 AM
After the first week, they should have been in the lots at night with bob cats or backhoes cleaning out the spots and dumping the snow along the perimeter, or trucking it out and dumping it somewhere else. To have spots in an already full lot covered with snow for 5 weeks is simiply inexcusable.
JW,
You don't need to buy more equipment, but you do need to be dealing with the problem. It is obvious to me that they keep thinking the weather will change and take care of it. That might be an acceptable response for the first week, but after 6 weeks it is simply inexcusable.
What has CDOT done to reposition equipment from other parts of the state until things return to normal in the Denver Metro area? Half the population is here and during this unusual time they should think out side the box. What I have observed is a same old same old attutude toward the whole thing.
January 31, 2007
12:23 PM
benn writes:
Also, you can't really blame Hick. Look at all the municipalities in the area, and each one faces similar snow clearing problems. Heavily conservative Littleton has terrible side-streets, heavily liberal Boulder has terrible side-streets. It isn't a political issue. On this JW is right, the gov't budgets according to normal conditions, this has been an abnormal year, and they are doing the best they can with the resources they have. Suck it up folks.
January 31, 2007
12:26 PM
Mark's Fan writes:
I'm over here in Aurora and I've noticed dump trucks moving the snow from the Mall to an empty field south of the air base. Don't the ski resorts have a need for snow?
January 31, 2007
12:30 PM
Mr. Plow writes:
There never seems to be a shortage of political hacks who will use any excuse available to blame our politicians for events that are clearly out of their control.
January 31, 2007
12:31 PM
history buff writes:
I live in the mountains where there is more snow than on the front range. I dug out my driveway to get to the lane. The neighbors all chipped in with shovel and plow to dig out the lane, but the winds drifted it in too deep, so the next door neighbor rented a front end loader and spent eight hours digging out the lane. The neighbors who benefited from the extraordinary efforts of the front end loader operator are paying the rental. Fortunately, Boulder County is on top of the mountain roads.
With 500,000 or so citizens in Denver, it seems a citizen effort could dig out the side streets. But in this day in age, everyone wants the government to do it for them. And then the government can be blamed for not a doing a good job. It sounds like an endless cycle of grief and blame.
January 31, 2007
12:49 PM
Tree writes:
People,
It's too cold, price of gas is too high, taxes are too high, Tree Hugger's fort is high off the ground.
This is only SNOW.
Meaning, we aren't ready for for any natural disaster like Katrina or religious disaster like hungry Muslims invading Denver for Christian virgins. Lesson learned:
- Never trust Bush
- Never trust Gov. for any services, including voting.
- Hungry Muslims love Virgins
- When really hungry, the rich taste better
- Never trust Bush
January 31, 2007
1:22 PM
Elwood writes:
Why are the snowplows out on the mai thoroughfares today? There is not enough snowfall to amount to anything. Snow removal should be on the streets where it will make a difference instead of replowing the main streets when there is just a dusting.
January 31, 2007
1:25 PM
Hannibal writes:
That's right Tree. The rich eat better food. I shop for them in the live aquariam. You call it Cherry Creek.
January 31, 2007
1:36 PM
What snow? writes:
You mean LA, Houston or Salt Lake?
Posted by on January 31, 2007 10:50 AM
Yep, them three too!
January 31, 2007
1:42 PM
Jake writes:
Elwood- You forgot the whole fried chicken, coke and white toast, plain.
January 31, 2007
2:02 PM
Not a jay writes:
Denver gets the leadership (or lack of) that they deserve. I don't go into that city unless I need to.
January 31, 2007
2:06 PM
Tree writes:
Hannibal-
I am on a waiting list at the library for your new adventure about the past. Don't disappoint me, I'm getting hungry for fava beans just thinking about the horror in tow.
January 31, 2007
2:13 PM
Elwood writes:
Jake,
Nope, they are in the Blues-Moblie, but I am having trouble with the PA system clogging up with snow.
January 31, 2007
2:16 PM
gr8fuldude writes:
Tree - good call getting it through the library...I just finished it (borrowed from a co-worker), and found it to be pretty lacking. I think Harris has been phoning it in for the past two books now. Clancy seems to be losing it as well. I think old age is setting in for both those guys...
January 31, 2007
2:33 PM
Tree writes:
8dude,
Harris pretty much leveled off Hannibal's powers when he hacked off his own hand instead of Starlings. All that work and the character has been ruined. Sure, wild animals will chew their own ankle off when caught in man's spring loaded bear trap. But this wasn't the case. A true flesh eating psychopath, such as Harry would of cut her hand off and snacked on it while on the run.
January 31, 2007
2:37 PM
gr8fuldude writes:
Tree - Agreed...Actually I think the best book in the series was Red Dragon. I like seeing them cast Ed Norton as the lead. I kept picturing the kid from the sixth sense playing young Hannibal in the latest.
January 31, 2007
2:44 PM
Tree writes:
8-
I haven't read Clancy in a while. I'm reading Nelson DeMille, Night Fall, right now. You know, "what really happened to TWA flight #800" when I'm not picking ice. I killed my tv for a new years resolution and have all this new found reading time at the fort. Throw some more books at me where the characters engage in espionage, death, sex, drugs, illegal trade, revenge, gambling and more drugs. You know, just like my 8-6 job.
January 31, 2007
2:45 PM
fiesty writes:
Just a few thoughts-
1. It's BS to call it "whining" to expect the gov to fulfill their responsibilities that are budgeted and paid for by our taxes.
2. It's an excuse to use the "abnormal, it doesn't happen that often" to explain why snow still isn't removed SIX weeks after a blizzard. One, week, maybe two, is understandable.
3. It's hypcritical to write citations to folks for not clearing their sidewalks, if the administration can't clear the streets.
For the supporters of Hick out there-
1. Quit apologizing or rationalizing the administration's failure to provide basic services! Hell, the USPS delivered in our area all but like one day. maybe we should give them the money to attack plows to their mail trucks. *sarcasm*
2. Quit attacking folks for expecting budgeted and paid-for services to be actually provided.
3. Quit using scare tactics like "so you want to raise taxes to pay for it".
January 31, 2007
2:53 PM
Anonymous writes:
fiesty
So you deny that this has been an abnormally busy snow removal year?
You deny that we're going above and beyond the resources normally allocated for snow removal?
Does the phrase "basic services" encompass times of extraordinary resource usage?
January 31, 2007
2:58 PM
Tree writes:
You get em' fiesty. Since we were talking books here, what do you recommend?
I hear it coming kids, you can keep the word Rehab and Substance Abuse out of the title. I saw you before you were even born. - Carl Reiner....Ocean's Eleven.
January 31, 2007
3:04 PM
fiesty writes:
January 31, 2007 02:53 PM -
Abnormal? Yes.
Understandable to take longer than usual? Yes.
Acceptable to completely fail to perform services SIX weeks after abnormal snow fall? No way. Note we're not even talking about attempting and failing to finish (bad enough), but some areas haven't been even touched once.
Since we've now had 3 blizzards (2 in '06 and 1 in '03) maybe we should plan better.... Or take better hints from the states who receive LESS snowfall than us annually, had blizzards like us too, yet still managed to get business done.
January 31, 2007
3:08 PM
fiesty writes:
Tree-
Wow, that's a loaded question about books! What free time I have is usually spent with a book in hand; I tried inventorying our books during the blizzard since I was homebound, but quit after the 7th bookcase and over 1500 books.... [We have bookshelves throughout both our main floor and basement.] I read quite a broad range of things, depending on mood, so you'd have to narrow down a category you like for me to recommend something. I read nonfiction to fiction to historical to poetry to sci-fi to programming, etc.
January 31, 2007
3:09 PM
gr8fuldude writes:
Tree - It's old, but check out "On The Beach" by Neville Shute...If it's not at the library, let me know, and you can borrow my copy. Definitely some good food for thought.
Also on my list is "Johnny Got His Gun" by Dalton Trumbo. Someone needs to read it to W as well...
January 31, 2007
3:21 PM
jay writes:
Trumbo's Gun is a great read for all the folks that support the war from their couches.
Just finished The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins...Hogar/Michael/Kevin/David R...let me know if any of you guys want to dig into the dark side...I would be happy to let you borrow it.
January 31, 2007
3:21 PM
Anonymous writes:
fiesty in your infinite wisdom on snow removal do you know of a super duper new plow that can remove ice from the streets
it seems that the back to back storms solidified that base before we could do anything about it unless of course you have some new invention allowing us to double our plow usage between storms
January 31, 2007
3:25 PM
benn writes:
yea, it isn't like it hasn't been snowing every week for 6 weeks either fiesty.
As I said, you might as well blame every single municipality, not just Denver. The whole state is having problems. That alone should give you a bit of pause and help you realize that this an abnormal situation. If it wasn't, then most places would have this under control, rather then all places having the same problem.
Besides all this, most of the roads are thick blocks of ice. I don't know the deetz about the snow plows, but I am fairly certain they don't even have the ability to simply plow up thick sheets of ice. I would suspect they need special equipment to perform that job.
January 31, 2007
3:27 PM
Tree writes:
Fiesty, congratulations, that's about 1499 and 1/2 more books are fearless idiot in charge has read. Now you created more work for the Bush Nazi's when they come for you. Too many books on hand is a penalty, didn't you read the small print in the patriot act.
8- I'll check it out. I'm into scary fiction and real life fiction, like what Carl Hiaason writes about.
January 31, 2007
3:34 PM
Tree writes:
Yeah Benn-
It's called the #$%^ing national guard. Already paid for. Already have the trucks, already have the 20 yr old meth addicted kids to drive, just need plows hooked up, lots of diesel fuel and 2 turn tables and a microphone.
January 31, 2007
3:37 PM
Dr. Evil writes:
One Million dollars a week?!
What are they trying to do, clear a street, or build a frickin laser beam?
January 31, 2007
3:44 PM
jay writes:
That's not a bad idea Tree. Let's have Ritter claim that Colorado is a disaster area and get some of that free gov't money to combat the street plowing situation. Plows won't get the thick layer of ice off the side streets, but at least we can have thousands of kids do some chipping with big metal rods. Of course we'd be the laughing stock of every major city north of Omaha for being a bunch of whining children, but at least we'd have our streets rut free and we could get back to talking about more important issues than whether or not HIck is the son of the devil for not being able to melt the snow fast enough.
January 31, 2007
3:45 PM
Anonymous writes:
Tree-
We don't have a NG anymore, they are over in desert eating car bombs so you can drive a SUV and the Nazi's croanies can die wealthy and fat for endless generations.
January 31, 2007
3:50 PM
Anonymous writes:
Jay blathers: Of course we'd be the laughing stock of every major city north of Omaha for being a bunch of whining children...
We are already, apparently you didn't hear that the whining children are holding their convention here next year.
January 31, 2007
3:55 PM
Anonymous writes:
Jay's comments are very interesting...
Big gov liberal believes the government is justified in it's taxation for services, but shouldn't be held accountable for failing to provide those services.
What I think he meant to say is it doesn't matter what the government does with your tax dollars as long as they take it from you.
January 31, 2007
3:56 PM
Tree writes:
Jay,
Help is on the way. Here's how it is going to work. We'll get the cars parked in the Whole Foods parking lot in Cherry Creek buried up to their door handles. Then we'll put the car owners dressed up like Paris Hilton on the roofs of their cars and have them wave at the over head Faux news copters in distress. Bush will be in Air Force One flying over Cherry Creek dropping Govt. cheese out the back door before you can say Cheney's guilty.
January 31, 2007
3:57 PM
jay writes:
Not at all...I just don't see the point of crucifying the gov't or certain gov't officials for events and conditions out of their control. The problem with the plowing is metro-wide...in areas that are managed by republicans and democrats alike. I just don't see the need to politicize bullshit like this....
January 31, 2007
3:57 PM
Holier Than Thou writes:
You city folks quit your whining...
Up here in the mountains, I use my own personal 4WD articulating front-end loader to clear my own road and a good section of county road, too. So, here's my proposition:
If you drive a gas-guzzling SUV then there's a snow-plow rig just waiting to be installed on your vehicle. Buy it. Install it. Clear you own friggin' snow. And quit yer bitchin'!
January 31, 2007
3:58 PM
David (R) writes:
Hey, here's a thought - how about we outfit all the tractor-trailer rigs and school buses with snowplows? The semis would hit the highways, and the school buses would get everything else except business parking lots.
Okay, I'm just kidding. But it seems like we run a lot of resources around and do no good with them.
January 31, 2007
3:59 PM
Halliburton writes:
Dr. Evil-
Yeah, $1Million a week. Doesn't mean we have to do anything.
January 31, 2007
4:10 PM
jay writes:
"before you can say 'Cheney's guilty'"
That's funny shit
January 31, 2007
4:28 PM
David (R) writes:
Just keep the 12 gauge away from him :)
January 31, 2007
4:31 PM
David (R) writes:
Speaking of some funny shit, check this story out: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070131/ap_on_go_pr_wh/bush;_ylt=AhSdmPE8ahpbhS4N9PGm8d7MWM0F;_ylu=X3oDMTA3ODdxdHBhBHNlYwM5NjQ-
Does this mean he owes us???
January 31, 2007
5:48 PM
David Hakala writes:
"I live in the mountains where there is more snow than on the front range. ... With 500,000 or so citizens in Denver, it seems a citizen effort could dig out the side streets."
Totally different street conditions, people, and snow, which is now ice.
I watched a guy attack the mound in front of his driveway with an adze. He made very little progress. I doubt that there are more than two people with the physical fitness to do likewise on the average Denver block. They would die quickly.
Denver is a bit more densely populated than your mountain. We're tossing snow and ice - mostly ice - onto each other down here. Big equipment can't maneuver between rows of cars on the narrower, curving side streets. Let the city hit a citizen's Volkswagen and taxpayers will have to buy him a Hummer. Parking space has been drastically reduced so there's no place to put cars while plows work.
We ought to just wait for warmth. But we won't.
We're not spending a million per week on snow removal, but on saving politicians' jobs.
January 31, 2007
5:59 PM
Anonymous writes:
Hogar and David said it simply and best:
"Denver, DIA and RTD all get an F on snow removal. It has been 6 weeks since the first big snow, and still RTD has parking spots filled with plowed snow at the overflow lot at Littleton Mineral Station.
For the streets that have become ice skating rinks, why don't they get one of these trucks with the propane pavement warming systems used to fix pavement irregularities?
It seems they are so used to having the sun do the work, they are simply incapable of doing the job.
Larry the Cable guy says "Getter done!" or get someone who will."
From David:
"We're not spending a million per week on snow removal, but on saving politicians' jobs."
'Nuff said. . .time for Hickenlooper and cronies to not go away mad, or hurt. . . just . . . go. . .
January 31, 2007
6:09 PM
JW writes:
Books for killing lots of time.
Brave New World
For fantasy buffs, the Ice and Fire series by GRR Martin. Coming soon to HBO...ok, not soon, but in the works.
Or either of the series by Jim Butcher, one of which is currently on sifi channel sundays (Dresden Files).
BTW, I also think Red Dragon was the best in that series. The new movie is good, but Michael Mann of Miami Vice fame made that book into a movie in the 80's or early 90's. It's called Manhunter and I liked it just as much or more.
February 1, 2007
9:10 AM
RonT writes:
Seems to be lost in the heat of the discussion is there is not much "snow" on the streets anymore, put compacted ice. A whole fleet of additional snowplows would do nothing to move this stuff.
Yes, it is a real mess, but as with the warm and well-fed folks at DIA during the Christmas storm comparing themselves to "refugeees", I have nothing but astonishment for all my fellow citizens whining and bitching. Deal with it people, or better yet, get off your butts and do a little extra work in front of your own houses. If you've walked to a bus stop every day the past month and are still complaining it hasn't been shoveled, and you haven't even thought of pitching in, you're proving your uselessness.
February 1, 2007
9:19 AM
gr8fuldude writes:
RonT - Couldn't agree more!
I did some Katrina relief with the Red Cross, and it made me seriously appreciate all that we have as a society. If having to deal with some ice on the road is our biggest problem, we should be happy.
February 1, 2007
10:07 AM
David Hakala writes:
Yes, Mark, that's what it ALWAYS comes to! Cities that can't afford 200 snowplows (like Denver) bounce for a few weeks once in a great while. Chicago and NYC pay to dig themselves out sooner.
I don't see FEMA plowing our streets. If you have to plow your own neighborhood, why is Hick to blame and President Antichrist is off the hook? You pay a lot more in taxes to the feds than to Denver.
If you want plowed streets now and have the money, spend it. If you don't have the money, grab a shovel. If you can't shovel, wait your turn.
February 1, 2007
10:11 AM
David Hakala writes:
Incidentally, how long did that Public Works employee who tried to stop the contract plower live? :-)
February 1, 2007
11:37 AM
Anonymous writes:
Hakala says: If you have to plow your own neighborhood, why is Hick to blame and President Antichrist is off the hook?
Possibly becuase snow removal is a LOCAL matter, not a Federal one...Do you really want to live in a world where DC is responsible for neighborhood streets? If you think it's inefficient now, just wait...
February 1, 2007
12:30 PM
D.T. writes:
All this ice must be all that global warming crap the Dems keep talking about.
There is so much snow in Alaska that moose are having a hard time.
February 1, 2007
1:27 PM
benn writes:
Global warming doesn't mean that suddenly there isn't going to any cold weather. It does mean that many places will experience more precipitation and larger storms (hmmm).
Nice try though DT.
February 1, 2007
1:57 PM
D.T. writes:
Benn,
This planet has been under going temperature changes for millions of years.
We will experience more changes in future years as well.
Man has been here only for a blink of an eye as far as earth years go.
There have been ice ages and ice melts for millions and millions of years.
I`m not by any means saying that we should NOT find cleaner ways about living in all areas but we are not creating global warming.
I know some of you liberals believe that but some of you liberals also believe that the Iraqi people will be better off if we pull out immediately.
I for one think it would be the biggest genocide rivaling that of the holocaust
nice try though.
February 1, 2007
2:45 PM
benn writes:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6321351.stm
that is from today, by the way
February 1, 2007
2:48 PM
history buff writes:
Geez, D.T. You make 2 plus 2 equals four sound like a liberal conspiracy.
February 1, 2007
2:52 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
I think that what we are experiencing with regard to temperature change is akin to the sinus rhythm of the heart. So many things in nature exhibit behavior similar to that. And it is also godd to remember that in the 1970s we were being warned by the same set of experts that we were headed into an extended winter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinus_rhythm
February 1, 2007
3:01 PM
benn writes:
yea, it is best to ignore 99.9% of the peer-reviewed articles related to global warming in favor of.... well, I am not really sure what the skeptics use as support for their platform, since the data overwhelmingly supports global warming.
February 1, 2007
3:05 PM
benn writes:
maybe if I post the link to the story from Fox, you guys will believe it
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,249319,00.html
Probably not though, why trust 'scientists' and 'experts' about this sort of thing.
February 1, 2007
3:07 PM
fiesty writes:
Yes RonT (and others), I guess I ought to switch the tires on my wheelchair to "snow tires", get out there and shovel, right??
You go ahead and call it "bitchin and whinin" after YOU haven't been able to get food, medicine, etc for over a MONTH since not even AccessARide can get in your neighborhood. I'm lucky compared to the other poor disabled and elderly in my neighborhood; I at least have a husband who's only mildly disabled and a 4x4 hybrid. Go tell my neighbor (a disabled widow) that they're just "bitchin and whinin" and that the local gov't has no obligation to provide basic services in over six weeks with the tax doors they paid. Or, they should take that small pension check to pay a contractor, right? (We don't seem to have any enterprising teenagers in our neighborhood or caring neighbors.) Screw them, that's your mentality, huh?
oh, btw, it's not just ice in our neighborhood, it's huge snow drifts etc.
February 1, 2007
3:11 PM
D.T. writes:
since everyone is pasting here is one for you benn
http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html
It basically tells how the earth has been warming thousands of years before the industrial ages, thousands of years before man was here.
February 1, 2007
3:13 PM
fiesty writes:
benn- don't bother with the skeptics. Big business has done too good a job in casting doubt in the minds of the public with a clever psychological campaign. (See "Report: Big Money Confusing Public on Global Warming at: http://www.stopglobalwarming.org/sgw_read.asp?id=40956132007)
What I ask the skeptics is this- is it an acceptable risk if they are wrong? For example, I have car insurance (not just because of the law) in case I get into an accident- I don't expect to, but I want to prepared just in case. The same concept applies to global warming. If the skeptics are right, and we prepare anyway, we have what? Cleaner air because we tightened up our emissions (example)? On the other hand, if the scientists are right, but we don't prepare, we end up with a death sentence for millions...
February 1, 2007
3:14 PM
gr8fuldude writes:
Feisty - Glad to hear that your husband is able to get around, but I feel badly for the likes of your neighbor. I have a list of several shutins that I try to at least call these past few weeks during our weekly snow adventures. People like that can be all to easy to overlook.
I do think that the people at Christmas who basically turned DIA into a pajama party but called themselves "refugees" were exaggerating just a tad though...:)
February 1, 2007
3:15 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
Probably not though, why trust 'scientists' and 'experts' about this sort of thing.
Posted by benn on February 1, 2007 03:05 PM
It is easy to acknowledge global warming. What is more difficult is to prove that it is caused by human activity, and even more difficult is to prove what will happen.
If a human being begins to experience a rise in body temperature following a visit to the hospital, does it follow that visiting hospitals is going to result in an increase in body temperature? If you chart the rise in temperature, can you make a certain prediction regarding what that temperature will be in a week or a month? Does a person who is tracking the temperature and making predictions about future body temperatures automatically understand the concept of the body using temperature to restore the body to full health?
February 1, 2007
3:16 PM
benn writes:
You are right DT, the Earth does experience climate change, ups and downs... but what scientists are now agreeing on, is that what we are currently experiencing is outside of normal fluctuations. Our CO2 levels, which are closely correlated to temperature levels, are twice as high as any other point in the last 650,000 years. Strange.... I wonder how that could be...
Try reading the article's I posted. They are news articles describing what scientists around the globe have been discussing and reaching a consensus on.
See, what your site fails to illustrate is long-term trends. Our current levels are outside of normal fluctuations. It is as simple as that.
February 1, 2007
3:21 PM
fiesty writes:
DT-
No one is questioning that the world has cycles of natural global warming and cooling; it's documented fact that there are major and minor ice ages. The problem is the effect that human activities is having on that natural cycle.
For example, look up the information on the carbon dioxide levels as recorded in the core ice studies (I can provide numerous references if you need it.) It is well documented that carbon dioxide spikes during a global warming event, and correlates directly to the severity of the ice age. The exact levels are recorded in the core ice, and we have now documented the carbon dioxide levels for the cycles in the last 650,000 years. Well, the scary thing is that the current carbon dioxide levels are more than TWICE the HIGHEST recorded natural levels of carbon dioxide in other global warming cycles, and they're only getting higher! So, what's that going to do the resultant cooling portion of the cycle...the one we'll be here for...
February 1, 2007
3:24 PM
fiesty writes:
benn- you beat me to posting the long term trend info. :-)
February 1, 2007
3:25 PM
D.T. writes:
Benn,
You can post whatever you want from Fox news.
Just because it comes from FOX does not automaticaly make it true however one would tend to believe FOX NEWS before say CNN.
I myself am not affiliated, I live by what I feel or believe is right.
Party lines is what is tearing this country apart.
People would rather vote for thier party regardless even if it hurts this country.
It is all personaly making me sick of politics.
It is all about greed and defeating the enemy and that is the way Dems. and Rep. look at each other, enemys.
Right after 9/11 it was as if this country was united and in a strange way it felt good.
Everyone got along and agreed on a solution.
but as the time passed everyone went back to hating each other as is where we are now.
February 1, 2007
3:30 PM
fiesty writes:
D.T.- it's not just Fox. If you are seriously open minded, check out some of the peer-reviewed articles. NOAA, the Federal Climate Change Science Program, and the the Committee on the Science of Climate Change of the National Research Council, and even the recent International committee, just to name a few, all have the data available to the public.
THESE are all reputable sources, and they say the same thing. You can get your core ice data from them. You can get the fact that while the number of storms hasn't changed, the severity has-- the number of 4 and 5 category hurricanes has DOUBLED in the last 30 years. The ten hottest years on human record have all occurred since 1994. And the Ayles Shelf, (1 of the 6 artic shelves) broke off in Dec 06- all 41 miles of it.
What type, and how much, evidence is required to convince people like you and Hogar that there IS a problem?
February 1, 2007
3:32 PM
JW writes:
"I know some of you liberals believe that but some of you liberals also believe that the Iraqi people will be better off if we pull out immediately."
Yea, youre a pillar of bi-partisanship D.T.
February 1, 2007
3:34 PM
JW writes:
"What type, and how much, evidence is required to convince people like you and Hogar that there IS a problem?"
You can convince Hogar to a certain extent. Where you run into a brick wall is with solutions. He said I could go to his house and he would pay me if God doesn't fix the environment.
February 1, 2007
3:40 PM
benn writes:
DT,
The Fox post/comment was a joke, the article itself is not written by Fox, but rather the AP. I actually found the BBC to have a nice article on today's developments as well.
February 1, 2007
3:43 PM
fiesty writes:
This is one issue that absolutely SHOULD be bi-partisan; we simply can't afford to be wrong.
But until everyone makes it a personal priority (both in everyday life and with their legislators), we're screwed. And when that happens JW, Hogar's money won't do you much good other than burning for warmth. :-)
February 1, 2007
3:44 PM
D.T. writes:
JW,
What do you think will happen if the United States does an immediate pull out of Iraq?
February 1, 2007
3:53 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
JW,
I think I said that I believe that God created a more robust environment than most people would give Him credit for. That does not mean that I don't support movement toward a more renewable energy model, just that I don't feel that the sky is actually falling yet. I think that most people recognize that hybrids followed by hydrogen fuel cell cars are the way things are headed, and that we do not need to take actions that will actually bring about many deaths to avoid the possibility of what MIGHT happen in the future. I am for a reasoned and proactive approach that encourages postive change without sending the car off the road and down the ravine.
February 1, 2007
3:54 PM
gr8fuldude writes:
Think about this: Even if you think global warming is a myth. (which I am not going to debate, you all are already doing that..:), is it a good idea to NOT explore alternative energy now, so that when oil does become more scarce, we are not AS dependent on it???
It just does not make sense to depend solely on ANY commodity that comes largely from such a volatile region.
I also believe that any new technology (i.e. Hybrid cars), will take some time to perfect (think early cellphones the size of a brick, early VCRs, etc) Let's work on this stuff now, while we have the time to get it right. jmho
February 1, 2007
4:05 PM
D.T. writes:
Benn & Fiesty,
I absolutely whole-heartedly believe with you both.
We cannot afford to make the wrong decision when
it comes to global warming, whether it is man made
or nature made or if it is evening happening.
The truth, is that there is only speculation not facts.
I feel we should do everything
we can to rid ourselves of fossil
fuels thus eliminating our depedency on rogue nations.
But I don`t think that will be the problem in our future
if Iran gets the bomb.
I don`t know about you two but that clearly scars the
Hell out of me. It is a FACT that they want it
And they will use it and I know whose name is on it
Even if it hasn`t been built yet
Or has it.
February 1, 2007
4:06 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
gr8,
I am all in favor of creating tax credits to encourage research into alternative energy, as well as raising the gas tax with reasonable tax credits to offset necessary levels of transportation for families and use that money to give rebates to early adopters of alternative energy and to subsidize public transportation. I am also in favor of tax credits for families to encourage them to use public transportation.
February 1, 2007
4:13 PM
JW writes:
"I think I said that I believe that God created a more robust environment than most people would give Him credit for."
No, you didn't. You litterally told me that God wouldnt let his creation be destroyed by humainty, and should global warming become to big a problem, he would fix it, or you would pay me money.
February 1, 2007
4:14 PM
benn writes:
I would vehemently disagree that the scientists are not working with facts. That being said, I know that you are going to believe what you are going to believe, and I can at least be thankful that you would be a proponent of renewable energy.
February 1, 2007
4:15 PM
JW writes:
"And they will use it and I know whose name is on it"
The people of Pakistan and North Korea are a hell of a lot crazier than the people of Iran, and they both already have the bomb.
February 1, 2007
4:22 PM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
JW,
So what is the drop dead date from the scientists, so I can be sure to be ready for your bisit?
February 1, 2007
4:23 PM
gr8fuldude writes:
JW - I agree that Pakistan and NK are a lot crazier, but they do not necessarily have the means to deliver the bomb. Yet. NK's test was pretty much a joke last year (But interesting, as we were in Asia when it happened)...but I think it will only be a matter of time until they find the means.
That also does not take into account delivering the bomb via other means than an ICBM...
In any event, we should take this very seriously.
February 1, 2007
4:34 PM
D.T. writes:
'The people of Pakistan and North Korea are a hell of a lot crazier than the people of Iran, and they both already have the bomb.'
Your right about Pakistan and North Korea and they scare the hell out of me too.
But Adjemihead(whatever)wants to use it against us so bad.
This guy will not think twice, he doesn`t care, he wants the end of the world to happen.
What really gets me is that the Dems think he just hates Bush and if the Dems win the election he and all the terrorists will just go away.
They have hated us since the beginning of mankind.
I gotta go make my way home it is getting slick out.
February 1, 2007
4:55 PM
jay writes:
"...Adjemihead(whatever)wants to use [the bomb] against us so bad..."
Really? Where are you getting that info? I'd love to read about that...please let me know what link I need.
February 1, 2007
5:46 PM
fiesty writes:
North Korea, Iran, and China. Capability, mind set, and stated intentions.
February 1, 2007
6:35 PM
D.T. writes:
."...Adjemihead(whatever)wants to use [the bomb] against us so bad..."
Really? Where are you getting that info? I'd love to read about that...please let me know what link I need.
Posted by jay on February 1, 2007 04:55 PM
Hers your link if you can find it.
www.commensence.com
February 1, 2007
6:48 PM
D.T. writes:
jay,
Do you think someone would have the guhunahs to actually come out and say they wanted to nuke the U.S.A. expecially if you are Irans President with all the scrutiny he`s under right now?
He has stated his opinion on Isreal and the holocoust and how he hates the west.
Let me ask you something.
Do you think he wants it for energy when hes sitting on one of the largest oil reserves in the world??
What do youthink he wants nuclear energy for?
It kind of sounds like you believe in him.
Makes me wonder who side you are on.
February 2, 2007
9:08 AM
jay writes:
'North Korea, Iran, and China. Capability, mind set, and stated intentions."
fiesty...come on...not you too. cut the puppet strings.
Or at least rationalize your feelings on why China and Iran are such huge threats for me. What stated intentions...what "mindset"?
D.T.,
Still waiting on that info.
February 2, 2007
10:36 AM
fiesty writes:
unfortunately jay, I can't tell you specifically why because it's based on information that is, uh, not generally available. lets put it that way.
February 2, 2007
11:53 AM
jay writes:
Whatever fiesty...apparently the real intelligence agencies don't agree with you and I imagine that they're actually looking at the info to which you're alluding.
http://dni.gov/press_releases/20070202_release.pdf
February 2, 2007
3:08 PM
fiesty writes:
jay, go ahead and believe what the intel folks are telling you PUBLICALLY.... unfortunately, the position I'm in sucks, because I have a validated opinion but I can't tell you why because of the source of the info nor can I tell you where I work (since it indicates source).
Out of the three we are discussing, North Korea scares me the worst...