February 27, 2007 6:37 AM
Construction firms playing loose with the law
At least a third of Colorado workers in trades such as drywalling, roofing and concrete work are believed to be illegal immigrants, report Myung Oak Kim, Fernando Quintero and Laura Frank.
Many contractors are taking advantage of this labor force by hiring them off the books and paying them less than their U.S.-born co-workers - and sometimes not at all - say those in the industry.The system is often fueled by labor brokers - middlemen who arrange deals with contractors to provide cheaper workers on short notice. These workers commonly are paid cash and rarely get workers compensation coverage or other benefits, even though state law says all workers, regardless of legal status, are entitled to workers comp benefits.
Companies also reduce their costs by classifying workers as independent contractors. That allows employers to avoid paying workers compensation insurance and payroll taxes. It also means they don't have to check the workers' identification and immigration status, according to federal immigration law.
With construction booming and the number of U.S. born workers declining, employers fill the gap through an influx of young men from Mexico and Central America and weak enforcement of the law has allowed shady firms to underpay them - and underbid companies who obey the law on projects, they report.
February 27, 2007
8:32 AM
Anonymous writes:
These issues are nothing new. What's changed since Roman slaves?
No different than the U.S. military landed in Iraq and distributed $12,000,0000,000. in cash to unknown persons (no record was kept, thank you uncle guv) for "rebuilding cost". Cash deal, cash is king. King George, way to run our country's finances.
February 27, 2007
9:59 AM
Terry Graves writes:
Strict enforcement of current laws would help curb the problem with larger firms, but how much more would it cost to enforce the laws with all the small firms. A consumption tax such as HR-25 would alleviate the problem of employment taxes. People might not be willing to work for less when the responsibility of paying the tax is on them and not the employer. Also less insentive for the employer to look at cheating the system.
February 27, 2007
10:00 AM
Terry Graves writes:
Strict enforcement of current laws would help curb the problem with larger firms, but how much more would it cost to enforce the laws with all the small firms. A consumption tax such as HR-25 would alleviate the problem of employment taxes. People might not be willing to work for less when the responsibility of paying the tax is on them and not the employer. Also less insentive for the employer to look at cheating the system.
February 27, 2007
10:09 AM
JW writes:
Fairtax baby!
February 27, 2007
10:15 AM
Anonymous writes:
"These issues are nothing new. What's changed since Roman slaves?
No different than the U.S. military landed in Iraq and distributed $12,000,0000,000. in cash to unknown persons (no record was kept, thank you uncle guv) for "rebuilding cost". Cash deal, cash is king. King George, way to run our country's finances."
A babbling idiot.....sounds just like jay/jw who like to snipe anonymously.
The enforcement of employment law is the responsibility of the states and federal govmt. When our liberal leaders in Colorado grow a couple of you know whats, we will see some real walking that matches the talking. Until then the hypocrisy continues.
NumbersUSA.com is a forum where the individual can take action and influence our lazy elected officials to get off their asses and push for Atttrition Through Enforcement - the dirty secret that your leaders don't want you to know about.
February 27, 2007
10:41 AM
jay writes:
There you go Terry, At least someone is willing to admit that it will require significant tax raises to deal with illegal immigration unless we enact a pro-economy solution that takes into account the benefit the US receives from its cheap labor force.
"A babbling idiot.....sounds just like jay/jw who like to snipe anonymously."
Coming from a coward refusing to sign her post. Don't think that everyone who believes differently that you do is an idiot...or JW or I for that matter. Try to intelligently make your point without the insults okay? By the way, you do know that NumbersUSA is an anti-imigration lobbyist group right? Speaking of Congress growing some nuts and dealing with illegal immigration...remind me who refused to increase funding for border security over the last 6 years...
February 27, 2007
11:12 AM
shaggy writes:
jay,
"remind me who refused to increase funding for border security over the last 6 years..."
What exactly was done the 8 prior years about the border?
It is sickening that both sides of politics put their party before their country for the mexican vote.
Every poll that I have seen official or not shows the American citizen overwhelmingly wants the hole plugged yet it is like the politicians don`t reconize this.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/24/opinion/polls/main971577.shtml
February 27, 2007
11:14 AM
jay writes:
shaggy...agreed, we've been ignoring border and port security for decades.
An even more overwhelming majority want a guest worker program with a path to citizenship for those that qualify...what's your point?
February 27, 2007
11:45 AM
JW writes:
"It is sickening that both sides of politics put their party before their country for the mexican vote."
I agree, though I think its sickening that they are using this to beguile the average ignorant American into thinking this is one of our biggest problems.
Its just so INSIGNIFICANT when compared to Energy, education, and terrorism. Especially Energy. Without that, we are SCREWED.
Immigration is just the new abortion, or the new gay rights, or the new...you get the point.
February 27, 2007
11:45 AM
shaggy writes:
jay,
My point is excaclty what I said,
The politicians could care less what you want, they`ll feed you what ever you want to hear to get your vote and then screw you.
We shouldn`t have a guest worker program untill that border is closed tight as a drum, and we find out exactly who,what and how many are here illegal.
And you know what, NO AMNESTY WHAT SO EVER.
Close the border and ship em out, yes every last one of them.
I don`t care if they have an anchor baby or are married to an American citizen.
Then get a plan together for a guest worker program.
February 27, 2007
11:47 AM
JW writes:
"And you know what, NO AMNESTY WHAT SO EVER.
Close the border and ship em out, yes every last one of them."
Have you given any thought as to what this would cost Shaggy?
February 27, 2007
11:49 AM
Ben writes:
Lets try strategic enforcement on CEO's and business who don't follow law.
Secure the border. Use a smidge of one week's billions spent in Iraq to build the mandated border security fence. Use of effective physical barriers at dense population areas (14 miles in San Diego have seriously worked). Continue boots on the ground at other areas. This will geometrically save billions in illegitimately gained benefits meant for US citizens, of which ANY alledged economic offset of taxes or slave labor benefits derived from illegal aliens don't even come close to covering. Our families will pay an extra $10 annually for produce, and still be able to respect our government, even if just a little. Continue boots on the ground at other areas.
0 subsidies for all illegals. Huge savings. No jackpot citizenship for children of illegal aliens. ( Ireland has used this method effectively and effeciently).
Illegal aliens make up only 4.3 percent (approx) of the U. S. workforce. Tax benefits and cheap labor benefits negligible.
Contrary to propoganda we do not need to rely on people from third world nations with 5th grade educations to come into the U.S. illegally, by the millions, decade after decade. Nor do we need another bureaucratic multi-billion dollar failure that another Amnesty(Guest Worker Program) would bring.
February 27, 2007
11:54 AM
shaggy writes:
JW,
I see the immigration problem as a major problem when our schools and hospitals are closing do to the strain they are putting on the system.
Don`t forget how they are (have)bringing down wages so low the working man can`t survive unless he teams up with all his buddies and rent a place together.
They are not here to just take jobs lazy Americans won`t take.
I threw up when Bush said that.
They are here to take everything!!
February 27, 2007
11:56 AM
Elwood writes:
Jay,
Sure I support a pathway to citizenship, but not the sleezy one that the senate tried to pass last year. Mine would include the following as a minimum of the requirements:
Maintain full time employment for 10 years from date of registration (not some imagined date when they came here illegally). Pay income, social security, medicare and other taxes (no earned income credit since this is reserved for citizens).
Keep out of trouble for the 10 year probation period (this means not committing a crime including DUI’s or driving without insurance, minor traffic offenses would be ok). If this is violated, be deported and start all over again (third time you are no longer allowed back in the country).
Learn to read, write and speak English in 5 years as well as a basic understanding of the US constitution and history (a test would be required to prove this).
Register their address and keep it updated so that Immigration officals can contact them if necessary.
Renounce their citizenship in their home country and pledge allegiance to the US. This doesn’t mean they have to hate their homeland, just give up their citizenship there.
Prove to be an asset and not a drain on society.
They would not be allowed to collect unemployment, food stamps, free health care (employer must provide health insurance coverage), Income tax refunds, Government housing assistance, instate tuition, etc.
No longer any such thing as an Anchor Baby. To be a citizen, the baby must have at least one parent be a legal citizen.
This a path to citizenship I would approve of. Of course it would have to be after the border was closed.
And yes I support the criminalization of companies using illegal immigrants for their labor force (including subcontractors). Make it so that just checking into their papers is not enough. If they are illegal, employers pay the price with huge fines and jail time!
February 27, 2007
12:01 PM
shaggy writes:
JW,
Oh I think once we start fining the hell out of businesses to pay for deportation.
They will get rid of the illegals working for them and no one else will hire them in fear of heavy fines or closures and hopefully most will go home voluntary.
February 27, 2007
12:03 PM
jay writes:
"I see the immigration problem as a major problem when our schools and hospitals are closing do to the strain they are putting on the system."
Completely false. Lay off the Rush and O'Reilly. Our school and healthcare systems have much bigger problems than the 5% of participants who are illegal immigrants.
Seriously...where do you guys get this crap?
Elwood...at least we can agree on the concept. I think the 10 year wait is a little severe and may be counterproductive, but the important thing is that we find a solution that doesn't needlessly cripple the economy because of prejudice or hate.
February 27, 2007
12:07 PM
JW writes:
"JW,
I see the immigration problem as a major problem when our schools and hospitals are closing do to the strain they are putting on the system.
Don`t forget how they are (have)bringing down wages so low the working man can`t survive unless he teams up with all his buddies and rent a place together.
They are not here to just take jobs lazy Americans won`t take.
I threw up when Bush said that.
They are here to take everything!!"
Ok, but again, have you given any thought to the COST for your "No Amnesty whatsoever! Throw them out!" program?
"JW,
Oh I think once we start fining the hell out of businesses to pay for deportation.
They will get rid of the illegals working for them and no one else will hire them in fear of heavy fines or closures and hopefully most will go home voluntary."
Again, have you given any thought to the COSTS involved? In order to fine business, you will have to do more inforcement for example.
February 27, 2007
12:23 PM
Ben writes:
So where is the end with a Amnesty/GWP? The complete dissolution of the United States? North American Union? Civil War?
Sensenbrenner 4437 made sense.
Watch Lou Dobbs @ 4:00 on CNN.
Here is yesterdays sample poll question.
Do you believe it is hypocritical of the Mexican government to criticize U.S. border security efforts while allowing millions of Mexican citizens to cross the U.S. border illegally?
Yes 96% 9108 votes
No 4% 336 votes
Total: 9444 votes
February 27, 2007
12:33 PM
shaggy writes:
JW,
All expenses will come from the fines levied against the businesses that hire them.
Am I not making myself clear?
February 27, 2007
1:10 PM
shaggy writes:
Check out this video about the numbers of illegals and just what it all means.
It is very well done and will(should)scare the hell out of you.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=%22numbers+usa%22&hl=en
February 27, 2007
1:12 PM
JW writes:
"All expenses will come from the fines levied against the businesses that hire them.
Am I not making myself clear?"
Yes. you sure are. Im just trying to get you to THINK.
So, your idea is that businesses will cover the costs for this program by paying fines. How much will it cost to do what you want? Isnt that important? If you want business to pay for it though fines, shouldnt you know how much it will cost, so you can make sure business CAN pay it? And, if you are going to pay it using fines, WHO WILL ACTUALLY PAY? Or do you think Businesses that get hit with these fines will just say "oh well. Proffits arent going to be as big this year. Sorry."?
Because I think they will pay the fine, and then bump the cost of their goods to cover it...and YOU and I will end up paying it anyway.
So again, before you go instituting a policy that you WILL pay for one way or another...
dont you think you ought to have SOME idea how much it will cost?
BTW, this is a great example of how Dems and Repubs are EXACTLY the same animal, with small differences that amount to nothing.
Repubs like fines to businesses that break laws.
Dems like taxes to businesses.
But, the PEOPLE of the USA pay for BOTH, because business doesnt see it as fines or taxes...they see it as COSTS, which they just build into the price for their products.
February 27, 2007
1:15 PM
Anonymous writes:
"Many contractors are taking advantage of this labor force by hiring them off the books and paying them less than their U.S.-born co-workers....."
WHAT?!?!?!?
Companies are taking advantage of illegals???? I am OUTRAGED! Who would do such a thing???
Even if they pay them what they agree upon, they're STILL taking advantage of them, and turning out generally inferior products in the process. In many cases, this is a losing proposition all the way around, EXCEPT for the builder, who comes out smellin' like a freakin' rose - I say to put the sonsabitches in prison, as they ARE violating the law. How is their ripping everyone off different than Tyco, WorldCom, and the others? Stealing is stealing!!
February 27, 2007
1:17 PM
JW writes:
"It is very well done and will(should)scare the hell out of you."
I'll check it out when I get home but...
A) I dont make decisions based on fear, because I'm not stupid.
B) I have $50 that says I will finish that video and say "Jeez. Yet another detailed fear inspiring list of costs...and not one mention of the benefits. Can't make a rational decision without both."
Fear mongering works on people who let fear drive them. That AINT me. You can make me jump, but Im not gona DO anything till I've thought it out.
February 27, 2007
1:27 PM
Ben writes:
Construction firms playing loose with the law? I thought all these resident aliens with green cards were here to do was to pick produce? Now we have illegal aliens? How in the world did they move into contruction and service industry work? We were told back in the day we "needed" pickers. How did it expand beyond agricultural needs to include every blue collar job? Something smells, and it isn't rotting produce.
February 27, 2007
1:28 PM
shaggy writes:
JW ,
Did you watch it?
February 27, 2007
1:31 PM
JW writes:
"JW ,
Did you watch it?"
Like I said,
"I'll check it out when I get home but..."
Looking at the source, Im betting its all scare tactics..
"The costs are crazy! Just look at what this costs! Oh my god! Do you realize what this costs?!"
Nothing about the benefits.
But I could be wrong. I will check it out when I get home.
February 27, 2007
1:33 PM
shaggy writes:
It`s not about trying to scare you,
which I have no idea why you feel the need to do your off the wall composing on a simple word my god you are sensitive.
It is about the fact that this country will be totally a third world country if something is not done you fool
February 27, 2007
1:34 PM
Ben writes:
shaggy, It boils down to that, if we let it happen.
February 27, 2007
1:41 PM
JW writes:
"It is about the fact that this country will be totally a third world country if something is not done you fool"
Ethnocentric fear has been around for ages.
And if you cant even see the fear in your own statement, you need to think about who the fool really is. "Oh no! Fear the brown people! They will make us a third world nation!"
And since youve decided to ignore the other aspect of our discussion, Im forced to restate my question;
Do you have any idea of the costs for implementing your policy? It doesnt matter if you fine companies or pay for the enforcement through taxes, YOU will pay.
February 27, 2007
1:59 PM
Ben writes:
jw.
No fear here, just proactivity and planning for my children's and country's future. Enough with the reactivity( Immigration Reform Act of 1986 and Amnesty/GWP, again).
What about respect for a nation's people? What about respect for a nation?
Ethnocentrism? Are you trying to use thr "R" word on the sly?
February 27, 2007
2:30 PM
Anonymous writes:
JW,
Do you have a hard time acquiring friends??????
Thought so.
February 27, 2007
3:06 PM
shaggy writes:
Typical of you Luneys,
Give you an answer
and you want to know
what color of ink pen will
used to write out the fines.
Amazing you guys accomplish anything.
Oh wait, never mind..
February 27, 2007
3:54 PM
JW writes:
Look man, I just spent most of the day asking you if you had any clue what the policy you desire would cost.
Seems like a good question to me. I like to know how much the thing I want is going to cost.
The best you could come up with was that it didnt matter, because we could just fine the companies for what it cost. Thats stupid. Sorry, but its true. Its short sighted, shows that you have no clue what those costs are and worse, dont even care. And still worse, it shows youve got no clue about how corporate economics work, making you completely oblivious to the fact that, charge them all you want, YOU will end up paying the bill.
"Fine them! Fine them all to hell! Hey, why does meat cost $30 a lb? Someone should regulate this!"
But hey, do whatcha do.
February 27, 2007
4:13 PM
Ben writes:
Jw- blogs 'why does meat cost $30 a lb?" and blogs earlier :
"Fear mongering works on people who let fear drive them. That AINT me. You can make me jump, but Im not gona DO anything till I've thought it out."
Typical lefty hypocrisy, among other things.
February 27, 2007
4:22 PM
shaggy writes:
JW,
How in the world would I know all the costs to sending them back.
I have enough on my plate running my own biz.
The suggestion came to my mind when you asked me who is gonna pay the cost .
How in the world would you expect ME to have all the studies in front of my mug when as far as I know there has been no such studies.
Do you want me to run out and tell congress that I want all the paper work that has been done if it has been done on what it would take to deport all the Illegals here???
How can I answer those kinds of Q`s when no one in the fricking world can come up with precise amounts.
One thing I do know is that you being a liberal haven`t given one idea on what to do.
Do me just one favor and it will take you 14 minutes.
Watch this short clip and then I would like your opinion on it to see if you see it as a scare tactic.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=%22numbers+usa%22&hl=en
February 27, 2007
4:29 PM
jay writes:
Give it up JW....
Fellas...all JW is trying to do is make you realize that you don't know what you don't know. Therefore, someone is doing your thinking for you. Garbage in, garbage out.
February 27, 2007
4:36 PM
shaggy writes:
jay,
why don`t you check the video out posted below me.
JW thinks, without seeing it is a scare tactic.
jay, you watch it and see if you think it is a scare tactic.
It has nothing to do with politics and everything to do with the United States as a Country
February 27, 2007
4:59 PM
Ben writes:
jw and jay- So NOW you want to talk about COST..... of enforcement? Just a few weeks back you two were weakly defending your point about how all anyone, ( who illustrated the huge cost of illegal immigration to you two) could do was complain about how much illegal immigration costs. Now YOU TWO are complaining of costs. Can you do a Cost/Benefit analysis of enforcement? Enforcement is a great investment in America's future.
Shaggy, you got jw's MO down earlier. Now apply to jay.
February 27, 2007
5:02 PM
Anonymous writes:
shaggy: you might as well give up on JW - as you say, they never answer the questions. I have asked many times "How many is enough? and have not received an answer to that simply question. I watched the video you mentioned above and it is scary, not only for me, but for my grandchildren. I totally agree with your posts - but forget JW...
February 27, 2007
5:07 PM
jay writes:
Aaahhhh Ben...are you finally ready to give us that often asked for cost benefit analysis?
February 27, 2007
5:22 PM
Geraldo writes:
to jay and jw
Please outline the costs and logistics of implementing a guest worker program and "path to citizenship" for all of the illegal aliens currently in this country as well as those sneaking across the border each and every day. How exactly is that going to work and how much is it going to cost?
February 27, 2007
5:30 PM
JW writes:
WHOA! A wingnut with half a brain! Good post Geraldo!
start here.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/01/20040107-1.html
After that, we can look at some other stuff.
February 27, 2007
5:35 PM
Ben writes:
So jay, you never answered this question. Are your arguments in regards to illegal aliens ethnically motivated?
So no Cost/Benefit analysis of enforcement of immigration law from you eh? and again, if their was a holistic benefit of illegal immigration versus cost , the overly liberal press would splash that over and over again in their headlines. The cost of illegal immigration is astronomical though. Oh, want a link to those costs? Go back in the archives and look up mine and others previous blogs.
February 27, 2007
5:42 PM
JW writes:
Geraldo,
This article explains why I favor a guest worker program over any kind of "shipem out" legislation or "penalize penalize penalize".
The basic premise in my thinking can be summed up by one quote,
"The reason for such wide disparities can be attributed, in part, to uncertainties in basic data, such as how many illegal immigrants are in the country, researchers say. But the difference is also driven by ideological differences."
What that tells me is that cost/benefit analysis on this one isn't possible, because the data isn't there. Why isn't it there? Because they are illegals. They don't report their presence, or their wages. We just don't have the data (and I have said this MANY TIMES before) to go making a decision as to whether or not Illegals are a net benefit, or cost....so....
Guest worker. This doesn't change the system radically, so there shouldn't be any crazy unintended economic consequences (as you might get with mass deportation, or huge penalties to companies that are concentrated in few industries). You would ALSO get the ability to actually GET the data. WOHO! Get the data! Make an INFORMED decision!
Then, after we get the data, if it turns out you kneejerkers got lucky and illegals ARE this huge problem, lets figure out how to get rid of them! BUT! If it turns out you freaks were wrong....well, no harm done.
February 27, 2007
5:46 PM
JW writes:
BTW, you combine a GWP with the Fairtax (HR 25) and BANG! They all pay taxes, legal, guest worker, or illegal.
February 27, 2007
5:51 PM
JW writes:
"and again, if their was a holistic benefit of illegal immigration versus cost , the overly liberal press would splash that over and over again in their headlines."
This is called "STUPID". There is only a CORPORATE press. They aren't concerned with the liberal/conservative fight in any way other than how it can make them money. They publish the news that people will read, so they can boost their profits.
And that isn't rocket science. I know your hero's on the right fill your head with bullshit daily Ben, and I know you like how it feels sloshing around up there, but man, you gota be one stupid monkey not to get this. I mean REALLY stupid. Not just a little bit. REALLY STUPID. I've understood this since I was 12. And NO! I've never bought in to the whole "Conservative press" bs pushed by the left either.
February 27, 2007
5:56 PM
Gabe writes:
I'm not as worried about the blue collar jobs as much as I am about the white collar jobs that keep on getting shipped to India.
February 27, 2007
5:58 PM
JW writes:
Sorry Geraldo,
Here is a link to that second article,
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/08/13/news/top_stories/21_52_058_12_06.txt
February 27, 2007
6:00 PM
JW writes:
"I'm not as worried about the blue collar jobs as much as I am about the white collar jobs that keep on getting shipped to India."
Pick up a copy of "The Lexus and the Olive Tree" or "The World is Flat"
And get back in school.
February 27, 2007
6:06 PM
Gabe writes:
Maybe I'm bein a bit naive but it seems to me that
1 - there is a shortage of blue collar workers for the booming construction business
2 - we have an aging workforce that will be a HUGE drain on Social Security when retirement hits
3 - we would rather spend billions of dollars on a civil war in Iraq, than investing in alternative fuel resources and education that will be more beneficial to us than kicking out all illegal immigrants
I just feel that we have bigger fish to fry than kicking out much needed workers.
February 27, 2007
6:53 PM
Ben writes:
Try this article: Steven Malanga
How unskilled Immigrants Hurt Our Economy
http://www.city-journal.org/html/16_3_immigrants_economy.html
and
The Real Cost of President Bush's Guest Worker Program
Edwin S. Rubenstein and Robert. H. Goldsborough
www.immigrationcontrol.com/rubenbook1.pdf ·
This research is pretty comprehensive.
Illegal immigration is the most important domestic "fish to fry" of our time at multiple layers.
Also: Glen Beck CNN Headline News and Lou Dobbs CNN @ 4:00 do a bang up job on exposing the smoke and mirrors of the Amnesty aka GWP crowd.
February 28, 2007
8:58 AM
jay writes:
I see Ben is still relying on anti-immigration lobbyists to do his thinking for him. JW...thanks for the links. Any questions Ben?
February 28, 2007
4:15 PM
Ben writes:
Yes, jay I do have a question that you dodge every time. Are you ethnically motivated to continue using flawed logic and flawed myopic economic stances while ignoring every other aspect of illegal immigration to "advance" illegal immigration and enable illegal aliens in the USA?
Free your mind and the rest will follow. Lou Dobbs @ 4:00 CNN- Glen Beck on CNN Headline News.
February 28, 2007
8:34 PM
jay writes:
No Ben...only one of us is looking at the illegal immigration issue with emotion....and it's not me buddy. I look at the situation strictly from an economic standpoint...and since you don't...what other criteria are you using?
March 7, 2007
2:52 PM
JA Kelley writes:
This is an interesting chat, notes on cost to enforce, lack of construction workers, doesn’t mind loosing the blue collar jobs, etc.
Well first off, if we weren’t shipping so many of our blue collar workers to Iraq and maybe if we relied on a citizen army rather than a permanent warrior class their wouldn’t be a shortage. Clearly the big green machine is in competition for the same folks that would be construction workers.
Second, it’s a myth to believe that undocumented workers pay the same taxes as American construction workers. Many work for cash = no tax, their employer under-report hours and income = no tax, works claim 8 or 9 dependents or exempt = no tax, their employers misclassify them as independents = no tax and it goes on and on.
Clearly the problem is company owners and the owners alone. These are not small companies reaping the benefits but multi million dollar corporations. Throw a couple of bosses in prison and the problem will be solved. Deport his workers and more are already standing in line for these jobs and nothing has been solved.