Polls: most Americans favor compromise on immigration reform : Rocky Talk Live : Rocky Mountain News

May 25, 2007 9:33 AM

Polls: most Americans favor compromise on immigration reform

Americans support the major provisions of the immigration reform bill working its way through the Senate, but are skeptical of the bill itself, a pair of national polls report.

The New York Times/CBS poll showed broad support for granting legal status to illegal immigrants with no criminal history and a good employment record,

Many Republican lawmakers have rejected this plan, calling it amnesty that rewards immigrants who broke the law when they entered the United States. But the poll showed that differences are not great between Republicans and Democrats on this issue, with 66 percent of Republicans in the poll favoring the legalization proposal, as well as 72 percent of Democrats and 65 percent of independents.

Two-thirds of those polled were in favor of a guest worker program that would allow immigrants to have three two-year permits but require them to go home for a year between each stint and eventually leave the country for good.

More than half of those who favor the guest worker program say the workers should be allowed to apply to become permanent immigrants and eventually American citizens if they maintain a strong work history and commit no crimes. About a third of those who favored the program disagree, saying guest workers should be required to return home after their temporary period.

Meanwhile, a Rasmussen Reports poll shows only 26 percent of respondents favoring the Senate immigration bill.

The enforcement side of the debate is clearly where the public passion lies on the issue. Seventy-two percent (72%) of voters say it is Very Important for “the government to improve its enforcement of the borders and reduce illegal immigration.” That view is held by 89% of Republicans, 65% of Democrats, and 63% of unaffiliated voters.
Still, 65% of voters would be willing to support a compromise including a “very long path to citizenship” provided that “the proposal required the aliens to pay fines and learn English” and that the compromise “would truly reduce the number of illegal aliens entering the country.” The proposal, specifically described as a compromise, was said to include “strict employer penalties for hiring illegal aliens, building a barrier along the Mexican border and other steps to significantly reduce the number of illegal aliens entering the United States.”

Once you get inside the Rasmussen it doesn't track that far away from the Times/CBS poll, showing that most Americans favor some form of legal status for current illegal immigrants.

Discussion

May 17, 2007

1:04 PM

Ben writes:

Bye Bye America. We're done.
May 17, 2007

1:13 PM

USA USA USA USA USA writes:

Can we lower the flag to half-mast to mourn the passing of a once great country....at least while we still have an American flag?
May 17, 2007

1:19 PM

anderson writes:

Aw, poor babies. If a law actually comes to pass, you'll have channel all that negative energy into something new.
May 17, 2007

1:20 PM

No name writes:

Now I know what the expression Possession is 9/10 th's of the law means.
And Ben, the open boarder and trade embargo came from big business looking to capitalize on cheap labor. And the puppet was Reagan.
May 17, 2007

1:30 PM

anderson writes:

To respond to Mark's questions:

1. It's not ideal, but it's certainly way more reasonable than what we have now.

2. No, not too much consideration for those here illegally. We will still take their labor while treating them as second-class persons.

3. It's hard to tell what border security measures they have, but to the extent we continue to ignore the root causes of migration (as Congress is doing) such as the effects of NAFTA, then people crossing the border will continue to be a problem. The fact of reform itself will help in the sense that so many people won't be pushed underground, and that's a positive for security.

4. Yes, there's plenty of incentive to get a Z visa, even though going back to the border has to be difficult for many. Few relish being underground, and most will likely do whatever it takes to gain legitimacy--if given the opportunity.
May 17, 2007

1:30 PM

Anonymous writes:

What about enforcement? Any details about voting rights? How about paying for the health care of the illegals (now legal)? Of course not, we can't burden the employers or the POOR immigrants with that. I guess that DC considers immigrants more important than citizens.
What a load of CRAP!
May 17, 2007

1:32 PM

jay writes:

LOL...now that Congress and the WH is going to finally representing the will of the people and regulating (and taxing) the cheap labor force represented by immigrants from Mexico...the wingnuts are going to have to find another scapegoat for the failures of our social services, healthcare and education infrastructures. What will you guys do with all that misdirected negative energy?
May 17, 2007

1:37 PM

Ben writes:

Yes, andersdon and jay,
We will channel our energies. It's called civil war. Oh and by the way say goodbye to affirmative action. See you in the street.
May 17, 2007

1:38 PM

Anonymous writes:

1) No, it is not reasonable. Too many freebies for the illegals.

2) Way too much consideration for the illegals.

3) Border security won't work until they TRY to enforce it!

4) Why should they come forward to claim their z visa, when Diego down the street can make fakes faster than the government can produce legit ones.
May 17, 2007

1:48 PM

Anonymous writes:

Jay,
Where does it say they will have to pay for their social services and schooling? How about requiring them to carry medical insurance?

Nothing is going to change except that they can't be deported anymore because of their "Z visa",and now we won't be able to blame things on Illegals, just the damn temporary workers!
May 17, 2007

1:52 PM

shaggy writes:

So bye, bye Miss American Pie.
Drove my chevy to the levy but the levy went dry. This is the day America died, yes, this is the day America died.
All of us hardworking ,tax paying, Legal and Law abiding Citizens just got sold out by our own supposedly protector.
I guess I need to sign up and learn Spanish before the Invasion really begins.
.
May 17, 2007

1:54 PM

JMH writes:

Reading about this "compromise", I noticed one huge thing is missing - Tougher penalites for the companies that would hire illegals.
Without that, this bill means nothing!

Reminds me of the way we fight the "war on drugs". We fight the results but we ignore the causes. Anyone surprised? This is just another "feel good" bill that will do nothing to stop the cause of illegal immigration - Cheap, illegal labor. As is usual, it seems the corporate lobbies have once again proven where the real power in this country is...
May 17, 2007

1:54 PM

Vet writes:

Ben
I will be right beside you in the streets along with millions of other true Americans.
If our elected officials cant do anything to protect us we will do it ourselves.
Vet
May 17, 2007

1:59 PM

Elwood writes:

Ben and Vet,
Make it a threesome, I'm with you!
May 17, 2007

2:00 PM

JW writes:

Look at all you idiots. Did you read this part?

"officers to produce a highly complex measure that carries heavy political consequences."

Hmm. Complex measure. Duh. What does that mean?

It probably means you should READ THE LEGISLATION BEFORE YOU GO OFF HALF COCKED SCREAMING ABOUT HOW IT SUX!

My god. Thinking with your emotions is just straight idiotic, and you guys are all proving it. Do you really think you know what this "complex measure" contains now that youve read a 600 word BLURB?

yep, and youre read to get your guns. Jackasses.
May 17, 2007

2:03 PM

Anonymous writes:

Jay,
What taxes are you talking about? Income tax? What a laugh, these illegals don't make enough to pay any and probably claim enough dependants, to qualify for earned income credit so they will actually be getting a refund without paying anything in.

Only good thing to come out of this will be a house cleaning in DC when the CITIZENS get their chance next november! Unless of course the right to vote was included in the bill.
May 17, 2007

2:09 PM

Anonymous writes:

JW,
Why hasn't any of that been put into english for us morons? Why haven't the politicians released any of the details? Could it be they don't want us to know until it is too late? Maybe they don't understand it either, but it sounds good and feels good for their consciences, so they want to sign it and go home for the summer.
May 17, 2007

2:17 PM

Right Wing Nut writes:

Gosh, I guess we will now have to start facing reality about the War in Iraq. There goes a convenient wedge issue. Oh yeah, abortion that is now issue #1
May 17, 2007

2:19 PM

shaggy writes:

Let me see if I have this correct.
The Illegals have absolutley no respect for our Laws as it is, what makes our Gov. think they will go back on their own and then come back legally??

The ones that get caught here Illegally after this is signed into Law should be denied access to ever coming back here again period.
But of course we know that won`t happen either.
The wimpy libbys will be spouting through their tears when Jose gets sent back after his 10th run in with the Law and leaves Maria here to tend to their 15 kids on welfare.
May 17, 2007

2:28 PM

Vet writes:

JW,
I know what side of the street you will be on.
Looking forward to it Jackass.
May 17, 2007

2:28 PM

Disgusted writes:

The plan would create a temporary worker program to bring new arrivals here.

Don't we have enough already?
Bring in more?
Do these idiots in washington actually believe the temporary workers are going to leave?

Let's face we American citizens have just been sold down the river.
Without a paddle or a boat.

As Soon as word reaches mexico,It probably already has,there is going to be a flood of illegals coming over the border.How is the government going to know if they been here 10 mins. or 10 years?

Those idiots didn't even have the brains to seal the border before announcing amnesty for millions of illegals.

I think know is the time to bring all our troops home.If our so called leaders can't fight for their own country and citizens,than we shouldn't fight for another country and their citizens.

This is a sad , sad day in History.
Does anyone actually think that giving amnesty to millions of illegals is going to make them law abiding citizens?

May 17th, 2007- The day illegal lawbreaking immigrants , became legal lawbreaking citizens.
May 17, 2007

2:32 PM

truthy writes:

Fine. Let 'em all in.

Hey everybody! Free stuff over here! Come and get it!

Hell, take my Social Security, I'm sure I can get by with out it.

We deserve this actually. Greed and false guilt made it happen.

Oh well, I still have it made, but I feel sorry for the grandkids. They won't ever know freedom like I did as a child.

Building forts, riding your bike for miles, swimming down at the pond, mowing lawns for money to buy candy and pop in the summer.

Instead they will have GIGANTIC corporations that run everything, energy problems, Islamic fanatics trying to take over like they are in France, a third world life style...lots of have nots and a few very wealty haves. A land where anyone can be bought, just like Mexico.

So....enjoy!
May 17, 2007

2:35 PM

Anonymous writes:

Does this mean we will celebrate May 17th instead of May 5th? Or are we going to make May 17th a national holiday now too?
May 17, 2007

2:39 PM

Mickey writes:

Ok, let's all practice now, Yo Habla espaniol. Yo no habla englesh.
May 17, 2007

2:44 PM

shaggy writes:

Does this mean that I am an American-Mexican now?
I know they won`t claim be Mexican-Americans!
They`ll just be Mexicans living in America.They won`t assimulate.
Why would they? Why should they?
Our Gov. is totally ruining this Country.
They don`t listen to the People anymore or if they do they could care less.
May 17, 2007

2:46 PM

Anonymous writes:

Welcome to Anderson's utopia.
May 17, 2007

2:50 PM

Ben writes:

New Air Force motto:

Old:

Never lie, cheat or steal ,or tolerate those that do.

New motto:

Lie, cheat and steal, and accomodate those that do.
May 17, 2007

2:57 PM

Anonymous writes:

Hopefully I'll start collecting social security before the illegals bankrupt it!
May 17, 2007

3:00 PM

yp writes:

What's everyone crying for will YOU work for the dollar amount that they do?
May 17, 2007

3:04 PM

jay writes:

http://www.factcheck.org/article447.html
May 17, 2007

3:19 PM

YP writes:

YP,
We HAD people doing what they do before they came here. Corperations wanted the cheap labor driving down what they pay. And now the taxpayer makes up the difference in social bennifits and so forth. If the invasion never took place, our lettice would be a little more expensive and real live AMERICANS would be doing the job at a market wage.

Vote out any senator that votes for amnesty.
May 17, 2007

3:25 PM

MikeHunt writes:

Good day for all the hard working illegal immigrants. Alot of you people don't know how hard is it to raise a family in a third world country. You can't blame them for wanting more in life.
May 17, 2007

3:32 PM

Anonymous writes:

What President coined the phrase, New World Order?
Who ever said that they were right.The New World Order is great countries becoming third world slums,like ours.
May 17, 2007

3:37 PM

NO AMNESTY! writes:

If the Illegals want Amnesty they must:

Enlist in the Army
Train for 6 weeks
Go to Iraq for 18 months

Case closed.

VOTE AGAINST ANY SENATOR WHO CAVED INTO BUSH AND KENNEDY'S PLAN. I AM SO PISSED!
May 17, 2007

3:45 PM

Anonymous writes:

What about the other immagriant, not only the Mexicans, the goverment give them all money to start off. They have nice cars, have businesses and homes. It's just not our neighboring country it's all of them.
May 17, 2007

3:49 PM

Anonymous writes:

Um, 3:45...my wife's an immigrant, and we have spent the last months jumping through legal hoops to get her here legally. No money has come from the government. I don't think you've had your meds today.
May 17, 2007

3:52 PM

shaggy writes:

"Good day for all the hard working illegal immigrants." -----MikeHunt

Do you mean a good day for the few hard working Illegals and aGREAT day for the Majority of the Illegal scums living off of our system???
May 17, 2007

3:56 PM

Anonymous writes:

How can you say that we are all humans trying to do better, we all have rights to open up and say what we have to and thats what the Mexicans did!!
May 17, 2007

4:19 PM

shaggy writes:

03:56 PM,
If you are declaring Victory by earning it , you are wrong.
You won victory by crying in front of the world while wiping your snotty nose to get the wimpy libbys sympathy.
Wow, what a way to get amnesty.

I wouldn`t be too proud of my heritage by preying on someones emotions until they give in.
Thats what three year olds do.
May 17, 2007

4:29 PM

am 760 writes:

Jay, thanks for that factscheck link, good stuff.
The key to any democracy is a well informed public. Your helping in that regard by posting such links, thanks.
May 17, 2007

4:43 PM

jay writes:

Thanks 760....there's an alarming number of people who simply need some more facts in order to fully grasp this extremely complex issue. Reminds me of the old adage about 5 blind men and the elephant.
May 17, 2007

4:46 PM

shaggy writes:

am 760,
You are being facetious, right??
May 17, 2007

4:51 PM

jay writes:

I'll bet Shaggy is holding the tail....
May 17, 2007

4:58 PM

Crod666 writes:

In the 1800's white immigrants illegally settled west of the Mississippi even though the U.S. government had made treaties with the Native American that prohibited those settlements. So were they illegal immigrants, and what about their off spring? The theology those people used was "manifest destiny," to justify their "legal" right to steal land that had been inhabited by some of the native's ancestors for thousands of years. Isn't it ironic that their off spring are so upset about illegal immigrants today. I am all for securing our borders, but I think it will cost to much money to kick out the 12 million people who are already here illegally, and it is probably logistically impossible. I think the government should find away to secure the border so this doesn't have to happen again in twenty years. The politicians in the 80's should of dealt with this issue before it became such a problem.
May 17, 2007

5:04 PM

am 760 writes:

Shag, I actually payed you a compliment on the Greely mayor blog. Haven't seen you resorting to your 3rd grade tactics lately by calling people snoids or whatever, good job.
May 17, 2007

5:17 PM

40 cal. writes:

Soft bodied white boys cry me a river. Learn another language the rest of the developed world knows at least two. This battle is over you LOST, so quit your whining, and get on with your life. If you are competing against any of these people for a job, then you have no sympathy from me. You should have got an education, and found a job that couldn't have been taken from you by any bum of the street you hacks.
May 17, 2007

6:12 PM

shaggy writes:

760, ;)
Thats because I finally took and bath and ridded myself of Bush and his fleas.
Like I have said before, I don`t understand him anymore,
I also don`t know why He will sign this so called "reform" into Law.
You don`t have to worry though, I`m not switching sides, I`m just abandoning His sinking ship.

I still like my snoid calling when appropriate;)
May 17, 2007

6:27 PM

Mary writes:

This is infuriating - I don't see a single thing listed in the agreed upon legislation which addresses the illegal employers who hire the illegal immigrants (thus causing the problem to begin with). When are these folks going to face meaningful fines for hiring illegals? The year that WalMart got hit with and $11 million fine, they made $285 BILLION - which is about the same a fining someone who speeds 1 cent for every mile over the posted speed limit.

Nor does it address the issue of the folks who have been on waiting lists in other countries for over 20 years. How is this fair to the people who want to be here & going about it legally?

Then there is the section that clearly favors business against middle class workers - stating there will be
"preferences for people with advanced degrees and sophisticated skills", which is a slap in the face to the US workforce which helped get companies to the point where CEOs can be compenstated to the tune of more than 200x the rate of the median income of the corporation's workforce, which apparently isn't enough for them. In case you folks hadn't heard, IBM alone is predicted to offshore anywhere between 40,000 & 55,000 US jobs over the course of the next year. (H1B holders are typically hired on at less than 50% of the US citizen's wages - and this will give those companies a chance to hire on people at H1B rates). A newspaper is Pasadena has hired Indians to replace local reporters, radiologists in India and Lebanon are reading CT scans for hospitals in Altoona and Chicago. The 'teleteaching' in IBM commercials could soon become a reality in this country.

The US is the only country I know of where there is no protection for the legal workforce. In Canada, for instance, to be a subcontractor on a job, one must be a Canadian resident. Mexico has more stringent immigration laws than the US ever did, one must be a citizen (born or naturalized) to own property there AND there are limitations on how much money can be sent out of Mexico (remember that remittances from people in the US - legally & illegally - is their 2nd largest 'cash crop').

The parents of young children I know are now steering their kids toward service industry jobs, since people are even going out of the country for medical & dental procedures. The middle class in this country is well on its way to extinction - and this will just help it get there.

Everybody who disagrees with this legislation needs to call, write and/or email their representatives to let them know that this is unacceptable - and convince friends & family to do the same.
May 17, 2007

6:31 PM

shaggy writes:

Crod666 ,
Now the Gov. just calls it Emminent Domain when they steal Land.

I heard that before Reagon died, He was asked what was His biggest mistake in his Presidency and he replyed with granting amnesty without securing the Border first.
That is why were in this again and probably will be in another twenty years like you said.
Except I don`t know if this Country can handle up to 20 times the strain on society as it is now.

Check this 14 min. video out, it waken anyone up.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265
May 17, 2007

6:31 PM

When Is Enough, Enough? writes:

Secession from the union is a Constitutional right, yes?

The American people have been sold out by the sons(and daughters)-of-bitches in DC, once again.

They take an oath to uphold the Constitution, and then break that oath with bullshit like the patriot act (what a bad joke of a name), keeping the working class as wage slaves via the IRS as the enforcement and imprisonment arm of the guv, and letting companies and illegals break our laws with impunity.

There are fewer than 1000 assholes in DC that are ignoring and bullying 3,000,000 people for whom they are supposed to work.

But, Americans will do nothing. Their bellies are full, their wallets are fat (not for long), their fine Japanese cars are paid for, their 401k and IRAs are stuffed.

At the same time they're choking to death on crushing mortgage payments, gas prices, the cost of goods and services, and the devaluation of the dollar. We're out of patience because of the frustration and the sinking feeling that nothing can or will be done. So we drive like bats out of Hell to get to work every day, flipping people off, screaming at them, all so we can get to a job we f-ing HATE anyway, and spend the best part of our day, indeed, of our LIVES, working our asses off so we can keep paying for services for people who don't pay enough into them to sustain the system.

And some on here will say bullshit like the illegals actually are contributing more than they take, and they'll put down verifiable facts such as hospital closures, drained social welfare fund accounts of the states, and the explosion of food stamp, rent assistance, and other subsidies, based on the claim that there are no reliable numbers or stats to support the claim that it's a net negative. Yet they'll stand on their claim that the illegals are a net positive, DESPITE missing those same numbers, stats, and data that they so easily cite to dismiss the claims of their opponents.

Secede, relocate, remove the bastards from office, or stand idly by and watch as America slides into the cesspool. You cannot win an armed confrontation, so drop that one (you got something that can protect you from an armed Apache attack chopper, incoming mortar rounds, or an elite special forces patrol, you still won't last long).

Of course, there is one other option; make so damned much money in the next five to ten years that you can have modest homes in 3 or 4 countries, so you can go where tyranny and oppression is least invasive at the time.
May 17, 2007

6:55 PM

Anonymous writes:

i think your comment was intended to be that they are bullying 300,000,000 people, rather than 3,000,000 .... and, yes, they are
May 17, 2007

7:21 PM

JW writes:

"JW,
I know what side of the street you will be on.
Looking forward to it Jackass."

Hmm. You must be a grunt. Hell, I thought basic training was supposed to teach you uneducated, unwashed masses better than that. You're supposed to shoot OUR ENEMIES, not OTHER AMERICANS. Dumbass.

Besides, I'll be too busy making money while you guys freak out about, well, whatever this legislation actually says. Im one of those guys who only gets involved in a GOOD fight. Not some meat head like you who just wants a reason, any reason you're told really, to fight.

I'll read it tomorrow and fill you in about exactly what it means. Maybe its just another case of you overly emotional monkeys getting riled up about...nothing!

Hehe. Its like you fools never went to school.
May 17, 2007

7:41 PM

shaggy writes:

JW,
I do agree with you on this one.
I want to see what is actually written instead of hear-say before we all go balistic.
But if what I have heard so far, its sounds like amnesty.

I also think and let me be the first to say this,
"Bush`s polls will reach even Lower than they are now if he signs this into Law"--shag

I`m not the only Conservative abandoning his sinking ship as I`m sure you are aware of that!
I have no fricking idea what this clown is doing any more.
May 17, 2007

7:53 PM

Rojo writes:

I've called Salazars office and let him know I am against the way Bush and Co are trying to ramrod this bill through so quickly so the American people don't have a chance to read and hear about what a fiasco it is. Unfortunately, Salazar's website states he supports it. I voted democratic the last two elections because I thought they would represent this country and our citizens more than republicans but i can see they would rather support Corporate America and don't really care about the financial impact this amnesty will have. The schools and healthcare systems in the Denver area have already been negatively impacted by the overflow of illegal aliens, letting them stay and having more join them is NOT the right thing to do.
May 17, 2007

7:54 PM

Rojo writes:

I've called Salazars office and let him know I am against the way Bush and Co are trying to ramrod this bill through so quickly so the American people don't have a chance to read and hear about what a fiasco it is. Unfortunately, Salazar's website states he supports it. I voted democratic the last two elections because I thought they would represent this country and our citizens more than republicans but i can see they would rather support Corporate America and don't really care about the financial impact this amnesty will have. The schools and healthcare systems in the Denver area have already been negatively impacted by the overflow of illegal aliens, letting them stay and having more join them is NOT the right thing to do.
May 17, 2007

7:55 PM

RoJo writes:

I've called Salazars office and let him know I am against the way Bush and Co are trying to ramrod this bill through so quickly so the American people don't have a chance to read and hear about what a fiasco it is. Unfortunately, Salazar's website states he supports it. I voted democratic the last two elections because I thought they would represent this country and our citizens more than republicans but i can see they would rather support Corporate America and don't really care about the financial impact this amnesty will have. The schools and healthcare systems in the Denver area have already been negatively impacted by the overflow of illegal aliens, letting them stay and having more join them is NOT the right thing to do.
May 17, 2007

7:58 PM

Ben writes:

If you can, watch"Freedom to Fascism" by Aaron Russo. He did "A League of Their Own". (I believe) It should anger anyone on this blog.

jw,
you say you watch Fox and O'Reilly? Bill did a cost benefit/analysis for you since you fade in and out with the meds and all and can't follow my numerous tutorials. It was what ?
-19,000 that each American citizen has to pay for each illegal alien net. In January of 2008 if this passes, they will be eligible for every benefit. 20 million more welfare poverty line illegal aliens. Kaching. But of course, I taught you this on numerous occasions.
Really, pull your head out.

Oh, and according to jay or .40 cal as he likes to call himself, all of America wants to write a check immediately for this -19,000 per illegal alien.
May 17, 2007

8:05 PM

Ben writes:

Rojo,
People had to have known that by voting Democrat in the last election Democrats were going to pull this stunt. I knew when Salazar ran for Senate a few years back it was a vote for amnesty. He employs illegals or has in the past.
May 17, 2007

8:15 PM

shaggy writes:

Rojo,
Good post and good point,
There are alot of Dems. as well that are against this also.
I also agree that they are trying to "ramrod" this down our throats before anyone has a chance to review it.
I also think they will pass it very Quickly because Memorial Weekend Vacation for them is close by and they , trust me, won`t debate this on their Vacation Time.
Just another prediction.
May 17, 2007

8:37 PM

shaggy writes:

I also think they want to pass it before they have to endure the public outcry against this.

It is almost becoming a joke to be a true American.
May 17, 2007

9:19 PM

smw writes:

Please go to www.numbersusa.com for phone numbers, addresses, etc. to voice your concern or visit our elected official's offices. It is vital that we take a stand right here, right now. Send that fax, make that call, make that visit. We must stop this bill.
May 17, 2007

10:51 PM

jimi99 writes:

Ask rich farmers in California how they feel about illegal immigration. They have been exploiting Mexican migrants for generations, and they're not the only ones who have gotten rich chewing these people up and spitting them out. Woody Guthrie wrote a song called "Deportee" in 1948 so it's not a new issue, just some hot-button that opportunistic politicians have been pushing to stir up the growing racism in this country. We're all in this together, people!
May 18, 2007

7:20 AM

David (R) writes:

Does anyone have actual particulars on this bill yet? I've heard very little about it, except that it requires payment of a penalty in the thousands, pay back taxes on money earned, learn English, and return home to get a Z-visa.

Supposedly, if they don't follow that model by a certain date, they are what? Deported with no chance of legal return? What about those with criminal records? What about keeping more illegals from entering? There are still a lot of questions, and they're pushing this through without any public opinion time on the debate floor.
May 18, 2007

7:45 AM

Martinez writes:

VIVA George Bush!!
May 18, 2007

7:53 AM

just sayin' writes:

I knew when Salazar ran for Senate a few years back it was a vote for amnesty. He employs illegals or has in the past.

Posted by Ben on May 17, 2007

He was going to but they were busy refurbishing Tancredo's basement.
May 18, 2007

8:26 AM

Dwight writes:

It didn't take Ken Salazar long to become a typical Washington politician. His first pronouncement is that this "is not an amnesty bill". Way to go Ken, establish the big lie, and repeat it as often as possible and perhaps the people will believe it.

This IS amnesty and every person who is opposed to it should declare right now to work for the defeat of every politician that votes for it, republican or democrat.
May 18, 2007

8:36 AM

JW writes:

"you say you watch Fox and O'Reilly? Bill did a cost benefit/analysis for you since you fade in and out with the meds and all and can't follow my numerous tutorials."

I'll check it out. Are you sure it was a cost/benefit analysis? Or was Billy just sighting costs. Thats the stuff you like, and you dont have a clue what a cost/benefit analysis is, so Im wondering.

I will check it out though. Gotta tell you, Ive done quite a bit of research on this one. I've seen people making all kinds of conclusions. Really smart people coming up with opposite conclusions. Idiots sure they have it right. Really smart people saying we just dont have the data to put this to bed.
Somehow, after all that, Im not sure Bill is going to be the final word. But I will look at it.

Realistically Im betting hes just as paranoid and hysterical as you are. Bill has some rational thought now and again, and he holds liberals accountable for their bs on a regular basis, but hes still a partisan hack.
May 18, 2007

8:44 AM

Dirk Gently writes:

Ben strikes again: quotes "facts" from O'Reilly, blames the Dems when this is a bipartisan bill, then piles on with the rest of the reactionaries about how this is going to irretrievably bankrupt America.

Untwist your knickers, kids:

1. Whether or not you agree with the amnesty, this doesn't really change the reality of the situation--there were 12 million plus illegal immigrants here before, and they would never have been deported, anyway. The only thing that's changed is that your fantasy of having them deported has finally met up with reality.

2. None of us know all the particulars of this plan, so really we need to read through it or at the very least a thorough analysis of it.

3. I love how you righties keep blaming the immigrants for all our problems. The problems they cause on the whole are problems that are ultimately the fault of our own greed, selfishness and lack of foresight: if we had a proper health care system they would not cost us nearly as much; if we had a more equitable labor system their contributions in terms of taxes, etc. would mean more; if we had a more educated and virile work force (not to mention more equitable society), nobody would be threatened by the badly needed labor coming here for a better life, and so on.

But here's the kicker, righties: the aspects of this bill that you seem to like the least lie firmly in bipartisan kowtowing to corporate interests. In other words, the desire for cheap, exploitable labor is what is driving a great deal of the provisions listed above. America's "slide into the cesspool" has been happening for decades, and it's the result of big corporate handouts. Name any aspect of American life that is failing us, and you can see how much corporate greed, enabled by corrupt politicians from both parties, is largely to blame.

It's time to take back our country, all right, but not from illegal immigrants, or gays, or whatever other flavor of the month scapegoat you care to name--let's take it back from the robber barons and fatcats who've been screwing us all these years.
May 18, 2007

8:57 AM

JW writes:

Ok hysterics, here is the low down on this bill.

A) Its 380 pages. No, you dont have a clue what this bill means, even if you read the little blurb above.

B) Its just been WRITTEN. Neither the Congress, nor the House have even voted on it. The President has not seen it on his desk.

What are the chances that MORE legislation is tied on to this bill when and IF it does get voted on? Pretty damn good.

What are the chances it goes through revision, and if it does get made law, is not the same bill as the one finished yesterday?
Pretty damn good.

Now settle down. Use your brain to think this one out, rather than getting all emotional and freaked out about what is essentially NOTHING at the moment.

Write your congressmen and senators telling them your views.

But whatever you do....SETTLE DOWN. You all sound like teenage girls who think their cell phone is going to be shut off. Could be Mom is calling sprint right now. Could be she and dad are too busy in the bedroom at the moment to give a crap about your cell phone. YOU SIMPLY DONT KNOW.
May 18, 2007

9:06 AM

jay writes:

Good post JW and Dirk. Now if we can just get some of you folks to see that Iran isn't the boogeyman we'll be making real progress here.
May 18, 2007

9:06 AM

shaggy writes:

I watched parts of the B O`R show last night and I believe it was a guest he had on that had some figures on the costs of what we have to fork over for each Illegal Immigrant and it came to like 19 grand per.
I was busy doing something else so don`t quote me.
It was only a short little segment though.

Does anyone know,
Where can I read this thing in its entirety??
May 18, 2007

9:07 AM

Not a Righty writes:

Hey Righties-
The Patriot Act you felt so happy with until it started unraveling is thicker than this Act. Go figure. You wanted pickers and house cleaners, you got em'. You wanted smaller guv't and accountability- You DIDN'T GET IT. You got Fascism. Bush and Cheney have been laughing to the bank for years and have years more to come.
May 18, 2007

9:08 AM

Non-Republican for President writes:

Alright, now, you born-again rightwingers...pay attention to the facts, here.

This bill, if it passes, is more secure and less lenient than the ideas that your fearless leader, King George, wanted to pass in the first place.

You really like to blame "liberals" for all the "amnesty", but the truth is that your head honcho Dubya would have implemented as much amnesty - or more - than any purely Democrat proposal thus far.

You can't draw attention away from the fact that the biggest sinner in the vein of amnesty is GEORGE W. BUSH, your hero and messiah. Some of you have started to denounce and disown him, but the fact of the matter is that

YOUR PARTY CREATED HIM

YOUR PARTY EMPOWERS HIM

YOUR PARTY IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THE THINGS HE'S F*CKED UP WHILE IN OFFICE

America won't forget the fact that the Republicans brought this nation to the dire straits in which it lies now. No amount of attempted scapegoating and distraction can change this fact.
May 18, 2007

9:09 AM

David (R) writes:

Dirk -

We need a different term, other than "righties" - I'm a "conservative", yet agree with most all that you mentioned - we have to look no further than corporate greed to find the real villians.

But just as JW, Jay, I, and you, rightly point out that it isn't correct or fair to label "liberals" as all believing in any certain thing, there are plenty of conservatives who understand the immigration situation for what it is, and shouldn't be lumped together with a few who aren't happy about it.

And although I don't think we can truly assess the impact of the illegals without more data, it is true that many hospitals n border states are closing from overuse by those who cannot pay. Whether or not our health care system is broken anyway, is irrelavent as it was functioning at least well enough to service the needs of those using it, until being overwhelmed.

So I think we need to accept that there are pros and cons in this issue, just like every other issue. People are simply frustrated with what they perceive to be a definate unwillingness on the part of elected officials to uphold the law, and that is understandable.

Too many Americans feel like this is a "zero sum" game, and it isn't - yes, there are times where I can say that my son, for example, didn't get the job at a fast food joint because it was staffed with illegals - but it also meant that he took a semester of Cisco networking classes, and took a job that paid four times as much as a network admin intern, and he now has a future. I view that as a good thing (ala Martha Stewart).

Folks, there is plenty of wealth in this country to build, and to share. Let's all accept that we're stuck with the situation the way it exists because our reps are not going to deport 12 to 19 million people. The corporations running this country won't allow it.
May 18, 2007

9:15 AM

Oh Gross... writes:

Shaggy says:
"I was busy doing something else so don`t quote me."

That should teach you to jack off during O'Reilly...
May 18, 2007

9:16 AM

shaggy writes:

JW,
If Bush hasn`t seen it yet why did I see him telling the press that he is looking forward to signing this thing into Law??
Where did you see this thing??
May 18, 2007

9:18 AM

Bob M writes:

Remember? That this country was built by immagrants, a melting pot of people who came here to have freedom of religion, speech and to raise your family with out interference from goverment. Yea, we need to secure the boarders, but not only from Mexicans, how about all the Africans and please close Ellis Island and secure New York City??? We need to remember that there are no pure Americans, this country was once the land of the free. Now American should lead the other nations and state that as Americans we have a new generation that is proud, intellegent and we want others to know that we will lead the world in peace, pride that we are able to practice religion, freedom of speech and have the right to disagree, but not hate people for wanting to become American.
May 18, 2007

9:21 AM

Ben writes:

Shaggy. Heritage Foundation

$-19K for each American citizen to pay for and illegal alien.

2.4 TRILLION to get the scam started.
May 18, 2007

9:22 AM

JW writes:

David (R), Dirk,

Im not sure you can lay this at the feet of "The Corporations".

If you look at the data, Illegals are highly concentrated in a few industries.

Farming. There are corporations that engage in this, but mostly they are doing masses of crops that can be harvested by machine. We are talking grain, corn, etc. While Im sure some illegals are invovled in the process, these corporations are not the major contributors in this area, as they mechanize their processes as much as possible.

Crops that still rely on manpower to harvest are another story. Grapes, Asparagus, anything that grows on a tree. Again, there are corps engaged in this as well, but many are not corporations at all.

The construction industry. Lots of illegals. However, most work for small companies that are used on a contract basis by large builders. I have no idea if these large builders lobby for illegals to remain, but the actual employers are smaller, and dont have the power.

Microsoft? No. They use legal immigrants because Americans are not getting the proper education, but they dont hire uneducated illegals.

Ive noticed many maid and janitorial services use illegals. Are they lobbying powerhouses? Dunno.

Anyway, Im not sure you can put this down to "The Corporations" and their lobbying. I think this may be a case of politicians simply thinking that A) deportation is too costly and B) enforcing penalties is to costly. From much of the research Ive done personally, those are two of the ideas Ive had. Mass deportation I am almost positive is cost prohibitive. I am not so sure on business penalties.

"If Bush hasn`t seen it yet why did I see him telling the press that he is looking forward to signing this thing into Law??"

Critical thinking Shaggy.

I did NOT say he hasnt seen it. I said it has not crossed his desk (He hasnt had a chance to SIGN THE BILL INTO LAW).

Bob M.,

Nice post.
May 18, 2007

9:22 AM

Pam writes:

Back in 1986, Kennedy stood in front of the American public and said that would be the only amensty, that we would secure the borders.... WHAT A LIAR!!! They couldn't enforce the Amensty they past in 1986, and they will not be able to enforce this one. No illegal alien using forged or stolen documents is going to pay a $5000.00 fine, give me a break!!!!!!!
May 18, 2007

9:26 AM

JW writes:

"If Bush hasn`t seen it yet why did I see him telling the press that he is looking forward to signing this thing into Law??"

What I said exactly was...

"The President has not seen it on his desk. "

By this I mean he hasnt had a chance to sign it. Which is pretty obvious, because right before I said that, I said the congress and senate havent voted on it yet.

But hey, I guess I can see how you got confused. Obviously he has "seen" the bill, or at least been "Told" about the bill, as he did say hes looking forward to signing it.

Again, critical thinking. You could have figured that out.
May 18, 2007

9:31 AM

Pamela writes:

The government is full of traitors, traitoring every US Citizen in this country, they traitor every service man and woman who has served in our Armed Forces to protect and defend this country. We watch the illegal aliens sneak through the back door with forged and stolen identities and now we reward them, what a joke. They hang our flag upside down and below their countries flag and expect acceptance...this government can traitor every hardworking American if they choose, but DON'T ever expect this Hardworking American to accept any illegal alien who breaks every law we have and is told "Its ok, you stole people's identities, so, now here is AMENSTY for you!" For every legal immigrant that has come to this country in a legal fashion, should be outraged, AMENSTY does not apply to you.
May 18, 2007

9:33 AM

shaggy writes:

Are you always an asshole JW,
You don`t even have to work at it do you.
I was asking you a Q, but I can see it went way over your swollen head.
What a prick.
May 18, 2007

9:38 AM

Truthiness writes:

We are spending a billion dollars a week in a bogus war in Iraq. Why aren't you righties half as worked up about that as this stupid illegal immigrant issue? Geez, you people are morons.
May 18, 2007

9:43 AM

JW writes:

Shaggy,

Even when Im critisizing your critical thinking skills, Im trying to help you.

You do need to get them.

"Are you always an asshole JW,
You don`t even have to work at it do you."

Sorry.

"I was asking you a Q, but I can see it went way over your swollen head."

Um, not attacking you or anything, but...

Critical thinking. If you had the skills, youd realize that A) your question did NOT go over my head and B) I answered it.

"What a prick."

Low tollerance for stupid. Its one of my biggest faults.
May 18, 2007

9:45 AM

Pam writes:

Truthiness,

You are right about there is an IRAQ war going on, Want AMENSTY so bad, fine, lets make every illegal alien here (around 20 million, not 12 like the government is trying to brainwash the public with) and instead of a fine, let us send them to IRAQ for 3 years to work off the debt they have cause the taxpayers by using forged/stolen identities to obtain housing, social security, welfare, food stamps, education. That way they are really showing the hardworking US Citizens in this country, they really want to be here and assilimate into the US properly.
May 18, 2007

9:51 AM

shaggy writes:

JW or is it God nowadays???
Trust me, I don`t need you to try to help me.
What an arrogant clown.
We are laughing at you, not with you.
But if you feel you must, please keep informing us all with your Einstein like brilliance.
We will all try to take you serious and not laugh at you.
*snicker*
May 18, 2007

9:55 AM

Ben writes:

jw, try to hang on. Your reading compression is lacking.

Pam nice posts and passion.
May 18, 2007

9:55 AM

Dirk Gently writes:

David (R): True enough about the health care system in certain areas. I was talking nation wide, but you're right about select border hospitals and schools and other infrastructure suffering under the weight of undocumented people. Ans also, fair enough, I shall endeavor to be more precise with my labels. Although really I was just speaking to the "righties" and not "conservatives" as such, despite the rhetorical and ideological overlap between the terms.

This is actually a good segue into the problem of corporate greed and the quality of discourse in this country (yes, the two are related). Here's an exerpt from Gore's new book, "The Assault on Reason". Now, before people start frothing at the mouth, I have a couple caveats: I don't really like Gore personally, and there are two noted partisan jabs in there, but the rest is quite fair. But please read the excerpt, as he touches on much of what I've been saying over the last year: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1622015-1,00.html

BTW, out of curiosity: what are people's ideal legislative solutions to this complex issue? I for one like much of the INTENT behind what's been described above (I think it's pragmatic), but not some of the details of implementation that have been released thus far. And despite that I'm very welcoming and really not worried about illegal immigrants at all, I do think better border security is a must.

Pam: there is already a path to citizenship such as you describe. Here's the thing, though: illegal immigrants have the benefit of not being propagandized to such that they don't believe Saddam was connected to 9/11 (nearly half of Americans still believe this, according to polls), and that if we don't win that the "terrorists" will "follow us home" (which is assinine beyond belief). So most of them know better than to sign up for that bullshit detail. If you're saying we should FORCE them to sign up, well, that's a whole other discussion. How do we implement that, praytell?
May 18, 2007

10:02 AM

milloy36us writes:

How did the IDIOT Mayor from Greeley make out?
May 18, 2007

10:10 AM

JW writes:

"jw, try to hang on. Your reading compression is lacking."

WTF is "reading compression"?

Pretty sure you mean "reading COMPREHENSION".

Idiot.

Shaggy,

Do you think it bothers me if an idiot who says things like the above is laughing at me?

And you do need to get some critical thinking skills big guy. Pride in your ignorance is foolish, regardless of what you think of me.

BTW, if you would say less stupid crap, I would be a hell of a lot less likely to call you on it. Ya think?
May 18, 2007

10:13 AM

Dirk Gently writes:

Shaggy, JW does indeed come across as an arrogant jerk with some regularity (no offense, JW, haha), but he DID answer your question, and you really should have been able to figure out what he meant--at least by the second time.
May 18, 2007

10:26 AM

shaggy writes:

Whatever Dirk,
This is just squabble.

Squabble---To engage in a disagreeable argument, usually over a trivial matter; wrangle.
Just so JW would know what that meant and not take offense to it.
BTW, He doesn`t come off arrogant, He lives it.
May 18, 2007

10:29 AM

David (R) writes:

Dirk -

I haven't been a huge fan of Al Gore in the past either, but after reading the excerpt, I can see that despite some things that initially perturbed me about him will have to be overlooked so I can read this book.

Americans used to be very logical, very rational, very empathic people. Something has happened, as he discusses, to alter that. It isn't lost on me or many others that our founding fathers were generally not "college educated", yet look at the intelligence and eloquence they wrote into every document they produced - reading the Federalist papers, their logic and reasoning, and their ability to debate without belitteling each other is stunning.

However those abilities were attained, we need to foster their return in the population, and however they were lost, we need to remove that from our society. It is clear that ignorance and irrational thought are not in the best interests of the nation.
May 18, 2007

10:30 AM

JW writes:

"Shaggy, JW does indeed come across as an arrogant jerk with some regularity (no offense, JW, haha"

None taken. Its true. I know it. Like I said, my intollerance for stupidity is one of my biggest flaws. Ive tried to be better about it lately, but now and again...
May 18, 2007

10:39 AM

Amy writes:

Civil war may be on the horizon. I for one will NEVER accept these criminals. I have heard there is a movement beginning by disgusted American citizens to oust the illegal invaders. If anyone knows of such a movement PLEASE post it!!

I'M READY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May 18, 2007

10:41 AM

just sayin' writes:

jw, try to hang on. Your reading compression is lacking.

Pam nice posts and passion.

Posted by Ben on May 18, 2007

This reminds me of the rightie at a war protest that was holding up a sing saying "What a bunch of Morans". I guess reading compression is changing the font?? Classic stupid comment Ben. Belongs on Leno.
May 18, 2007

10:41 AM

Pam writes:

Amy,

If you find out, let us know, my Husband and I are in!
May 18, 2007

10:49 AM

Anonymous writes:

Facts show that illegals drain our already inadequate healthcare system. Facts show that illegal immigrants also have a far higher rate of mortgage foreclosure than legal and natural born Americans. Illegal children and the American born progeny of illegal immigrants perform much worse than average in school. That leads to slower teaching approaches and sometimes school closures. The lowest performing schools are in the neighborhoods most populated by illegal immigrants.

Each of these things effect not just the immigrant but the honest and real American too. What gives these people the right to negatively impact my life in order to more positively impact their own?

Why do they assert the "right" to drive up healthcare costs, drive down educational standards and devalue property?

The answer we hear most often is that they are allowed to do these things b/c they will take the work no one else wants. They are the laborers who toil away late at night or in the afternoon sun without breaks or proper wages.

Let me say here that poverty, discrimination and substandard living and working conditions are the knowable and predicatble result of their choice to try and avoid legal status here. Maybe it's too hard or takes too long to be legal but that doesn't mean you just skip over that step.

Stop telling me how hard they work and how much they contribute! If they were such hard working contributers wouldn't their own countries be just as nice a place to live as the US? No? Is that b/c they suddenly become hard working contributers just by virtue of the fact that they snuck accross the desrt with no water or snuck accross the border packed under a load of fertilizer in the back of a pick up truck in Juarez? Clearly not.

Both their living and working conditions and their income would improve if they just followed the rules of our society. They would expect as much form each of us if we moved to their country to undercut wages and reduce the overall standard of living.

My sense is that they would reject us out of hand as dirty Americans. Our country by clear definition has more to offer them than they offer us otherwise it would end up costing them more to live here than it does in their home country. If the detriment of trespassing here outweighed the cost, then they would never come. I think I'm on to something now. Ponder that one.
May 18, 2007

10:51 AM

Pam writes:

Posted by just sayin' on May 18, 2007 10:41 AM

Nothing Constructive to post, just wanted to slam some people beliefs, ok. Oh, by the way you mis-spelled Moron. Your entitled, everyone has a right, deal with diversity.
May 18, 2007

10:55 AM

anderson writes:

Ben tells us repeatedly that illegal immigration costs us (or will cost, he's not clear, but let's not quibble about details), $19,000 per U.S. citizen. He cites Bill O'Reilly as his authority for this claim.

Let's see, $19,000, hmm, that sounds like about half an average person's yearly salary. Sounds like a lot, doesn't it?

If we do a little math, we see that 300,000,000 U.S. pop. x 19,000 per = 5.7 trillion, or more than the entire U.S. budget in a single year.

This goes to show, again, that no lie is too low, no exaggeration is too extreme, and no statistic is too stupid for this crowd. If it demonizes Mexicans, hell, let's use it. Who cares if it doesn't make sense?
May 18, 2007

10:57 AM

Jim writes:

Since Bush is going to forgive 13 million illegal aliens misdemeanor crimes, why don't he also forgive all the American born ciminals already in jail for commiting misdemeanors? Also, we should have all the illegal alien men join the military and serve our country over in Iraq as a step to gaining citizenship. We could then bring back our American boys and put them on border patrol to keep the huge rush of illegal aliens out that we are about to get due to Bush's amnesty program.
May 18, 2007

10:58 AM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

If you don't enforce the laws on the books now, how can we possibly believe that the government will enforce this law?

Impeach Bush and the rest of the RINOs.

McCain and Rudy just sealed their fate with Republicans. It looks like Romney will be the next president.
May 18, 2007

11:03 AM

Ben writes:

As predicted last night by author Bernard Goldberg, The mainstream media begin with their sappy "out of the shadows", and "hope" pro-illegal alien blather. Sure enough RMN doesn't disappoint. What time is it,? - 11:00 in the morning and they have illegal aliens front and center. RMN, as is most mainstream media, is complicit in this duping of the American people.

Anderson, I guess you are more credible than Bill O'Reilly and Fox, Lou Dobb and CNN the Heritage Foundation, Center for Immigration Studies etc. Look it up.
May 18, 2007

11:07 AM

anderson writes:

Jim: "Since Bush is going to forgive 13 million illegal aliens misdemeanor crimes, why don't he also forgive all the American born ciminals already in jail for commiting misdemeanors?"

Well, we put criminals in jail in part because they are a threat to society. Working people, albeit, without status, are not a threat to society. Of course, if you want to poop your pants over their presence, go right ahead. I'm not worried about working people.

"Also, we should have all the illegal alien men join the military and serve our country over in Iraq as a step to gaining citizenship."

Military service has long been used (and recently promoted) as a path to citizenship. When I was in boot camp in the 70s, we had a Filipino guy in our platoon who could barely speak English, and we teased him unmercifully for it.

The first Marine to die in Iraq (Jose Antonin Guitierrez), entered the U.S. illegally. But that's a story Lou Dobbs will never tell you.
May 18, 2007

11:10 AM

JW writes:

"Anderson, I guess you are more credible than Bill O'Reilly and Fox, Lou Dobb and CNN the Heritage Foundation, Center for Immigration Studies etc. Look it up."

So what youre saying is that "300,000,000 U.S. pop. x 19,000 per = 5.7 trillion" is wrong?
May 18, 2007

11:13 AM

KW writes:

Shaggy, JW - According to Jon Kyle the text of the bill isn't completed yet but will be available for all to see within a few days. I for one would like to read the fine print instead of relying on the few excerps the press is doling out.

They do say that until the security of the border is stable, none of the benefits portion can begin.

So in other words, even if the Bill passes, nothing much will change.
May 18, 2007

11:14 AM

Mike writes:

This isn't about corporate greed. It's about politics. Both the Dems and the Republicans are selling their souls, and this country's future, for politics. The Repubs know they can't stop the Dems from passing this kind of legislation and they're afraid of letting the Dems acquire this huge new voting block. Neither party wants to alienate this many potential voters so they fall all over themselves trying to look like the good guys.
Get used to a bilingual/bicultural USA.
May 18, 2007

11:18 AM

Anonymous writes:

"Well, we put criminals in jail in part because they are a threat to society. Working people, albeit, without status, are not a threat to society. Of course, if you want to poop your pants over their presence, go right ahead. I'm not worried about working people".---Anderson

From the L.A. Times

1. 40% of all workers in L.A. County ( L.A. County has 10.2 million people) are working for cash and not paying taxes. This was because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card.

2. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens.

3. 75% of people on the most wanted list in Los Angeles are illegal aliens.

4 Over 2/3 of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien
Mexicans on Medi-Cal, whose births were paid for by taxpayers.

5. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally.

6 The FBI reports half of all gang members in Los Angeles
Are most likely illegal aliens from south of the border.

(All the above from the Los Angeles Times)

Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops,
But 29% are on welfare.

The cost of immigration to the American taxpayer in 1997 was, (after subtracting taxes immigrants pay), a NET $70 BILLION/
Year, [Professor Donald Huddle, Rice University ]. The lifetime
Fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average
Adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE number .

29% of inmates in federal prisons are illegal aliens.
May 18, 2007

11:19 AM

jay writes:

Uh oh....I see the emergence of the archenemy of the wingnuts....math.
May 18, 2007

11:23 AM

Chas writes:

Here are a few quotes by prominent Hispanic leaders for your consideration:

Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets; "Go back to Boston ! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die . Through love of having children, we are going to take over.

Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council. "They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over . . . We are here to stay."

Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico , "The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot."

Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas ; "We have an aging white America . They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population . . . I love it. They are shitting in their pants with fear. I love it."

Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party, "Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California ."

Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor, "We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country . . . I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, "I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back."

Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton, " California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave."

Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General , "We are practicing 'La Reconquista' in California ."

Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University ; "We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos . . . "

Are these just the words of a few extremists? Consider that we could fill up many pages with such quotes. Also, consider that these are mainstream Mexican leaders.
May 18, 2007

11:24 AM

anderson writes:

Anony of course isn't posting anything directly from the LA Times, but only what someone else said they said.

Like I said, no lie is too low, no exaggeration is too extreme, and no statistic is too stupid for this crowd.

Ben, yes, I'm more credible than OReilly or Dobbs. One, I've studied the issue. Two, it's not my business to lie or to scare people. Duh!
May 18, 2007

11:28 AM

Anonymous writes:

WAR
May 18, 2007

11:32 AM

Ben writes:

A Billion?

So often, we get caught up in a debate over political semantics and end up ignoring the hard-shell realities of what we're talking about. According to
Immigration Counters.com, here are some of the realities that the
Flake-Gutierrez Bill would airbrush out of the picture:

Number of Illegal Aliens in the Country 20,807,645
Money Wired to Mexico City since January, 2006 $ 22,213,001,672.00
Cost of Social Security Services for Illegal Aliens since 1996 $397,450,739,563.00Number of Children of Illegal Aliens in Public Schools 3,958,789 Cost of Illegal Aliens in K-12 Since 1996: $ 13, 965,063,431.00
Number of Illegal Aliens Incarcerated 332,594
Cost of Incarcerations Since 2001 1,398,127,429.00
Number of Illegal Alien Fugitives 642,799
Skilled Jobs Taken by Illegal Aliens 9,872,838

Figures can trick your eyes. Take particular note that items 2,3,5, and 7 reflect BILLIONS not millions of dollars -- and that item 3 exceeds one-third of a
TRILLION dollars.

Can you imagine how much it will cost taxpayers if we triple the number of Illegals entering this country!! Now add recession or depression. 60% of these illegal aliens are dropouts. Some with no education. WOW
May 18, 2007

11:37 AM

shaggy writes:

Anderson,
It wouldn`t matter what FACT`s are placed in front of your mug, you want open borders and think the Illegals do no harm.

I`ll tell ya what bud, lets meet at any Hospital in any State and I`ll show you first hand what they are doing to them.
We will then stop by any Jail in any County and take a head count.
While we are there we can look up some records of the most vilolent crimes committed and see who committed them.
I`ll bet the Illegal that dragged his girlfriend behind a truck for two miles might just show up.
On the next stop we can go down to the welfare office and take another head count as to who is standing in line there as well.
That way it won`t be hear-say for you.
May 18, 2007

11:46 AM

JW writes:

"I for one would like to read the fine print instead of relying on the few excerps the press is doling out."

KW is now leading the "Smart post of the day" competition.
May 18, 2007

11:47 AM

Gustave writes:

Why would we want to help people who hate us? This makes no sense.
May 18, 2007

11:51 AM

Anonymous writes:

And jw is leading for the dumbest.
May 18, 2007

11:55 AM

anderson writes:

Shaggy: "It wouldn`t matter what FACT`s are placed in front of your mug"

I haven't seen any facts here, only lies. Like I said, no statistic is too stupid for you. Get it?

Dobbs: "Today, the sun rose in the West. This development will cause a cataclysm across the globe, especially in Colorado, where every white person stands to lose his job. It's only a matter of time".

Shaggy (to his TV): "I bet the Mexicans had something to do with this"

Dobbs: "If you're thinking Mexicans had something to do with this chaos, you're RIGHT.

Shaggy (drooling)(on the phone to Ben): "Did you know illegal immigration is going to destroy our planet?"
May 18, 2007

11:58 AM

Anonymous writes:

Nothing Constructive to post, just wanted to slam some people beliefs, ok. Oh, by the way you mis-spelled Moron. Your entitled, everyone has a right, deal with diversity.

Posted by Pam on May 18, 2007 10:51 AM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spelling "moron" incorrectly was the whole point. I guess that sailed over your head.
May 18, 2007

12:01 PM

shaggy writes:

I just said you wouldn`t believe them if they were in front of your mug so I`ll take you by the hand and show you with your eyes the facts.
May 18, 2007

12:05 PM

shaggy writes:

Hey Anderson,
Do you believe humans are the cause of global warming??
May 18, 2007

12:09 PM

legal American writes:

I never thought I would say it but..Lock and Load
May 18, 2007

12:12 PM

Rich writes:

Old Eddie Kennedy may have outsmarted himself. People immigrate because they want to GET AWAY from the old place. As with everyone that has ever moved from one state to another there is always that feeling that "after I get here, close the gates after me". I see no reason for immigrants moving into the US to feel any different.
Hispanics and other so-called minorities are getting wise to being used by politicians and may very well turn on them this coming election. Kennedy is counting on the Dems to get a broader base and out power the Repubs. Now, anyone that thinks will see this as being completely wrong. One party domination is as close to dictatorship as you can get. What happened to the days when Congress was so wrapped up in itself that nothing was accomplished? Those were the good ol' days. No one seems to realize that when these guys get together it gets real expensive for us. Take a look at the computer tracking idea in the proposed immigration bill. Even your kid will be in a data base for mowing the neighbors lawn. Every cent, I said every cent will be followed. Damn! Ain't big brother wonderful. Well, you folks wanted Congress to do something. They did. And in the end is where you are getting screwed.

Totalitarianism and socialism is just around the corner. You folks voted these clowns in and you have to decide (real quick) by November 2008 just what you want for a government.

The Army is grabbing land in southern Colorado. Do they really need that much dirt to play in? Better start thinking "Internment Camps" you dummies. With the "PC Police" and the other ways of controlling society I'm sure me and the other folks that see the end of America coming will be taking up residence there. It was fun while it lasted. Party hardy!
May 18, 2007

12:19 PM

Rich writes:

Shaggy.....
Only the ones that fart. i.e. Vegans and my horse. Well, she's also a vegetarian.
May 18, 2007

12:19 PM

shaggy writes:

over the past 10 years, 60 California emergency room hospitals have gone bankrupt and closed their doors due to unreimbursed medical care given to illegal aliens. Twenty-four more hospitals are on the verge of bankruptcy, This is a calamity for many American citizens who need nearby medical care.

In Oregon last month it was announced that the Oregon Department of Human Services is $172 million over budget just five months into the biennium. DHS administers the health plan. While swimming in this $172 million sea of red ink, DHS nonetheless sends out employees on Saturdays and pays them overtime, to attend events that, by agreement with the Mexican consul general, are only open to Mexican nationals, (read illegal aliens). At these events, the DHS employees show Mexican nationals how to access Oregon state benefits.

So In your world, Anderson, these are not factual enough for you.
Unbelievable.
You turn around and call us stupid. Wow we two JW`s here now.
May 18, 2007

12:24 PM

Ben writes:

Rich- "Watch Freedom to Fascism" by Aaron Russo. I think Aaron Russo is stashed at area 57 now.
May 18, 2007

12:26 PM

Anonymous writes:

AMY and Pam go to terry anderson talk show out of calif. you'll se what really is going on.Also, this amnesty thing is'nt going to fly as easily as one thinks..back log to process people,etc.remember the motor vehicle,voting machines,the medical and food stamp situation with computer systems that they couldn't get right?
Maybe it's only a ploy to apease the pro-illegals....and this will drag on for years. ya think?
May 18, 2007

12:43 PM

The Invisible Hand writes:

This blog is for dolts. I'm to blame. The law of the market place is stronger than your immigration laws. The United States has gone through the longest economic expansion in the history of the world, yet the people in the United States bitch and gripe because their expansion required imported labor. You fought a Cold War to protect capitalism, and you won. But now you don't want to accept the consequences of your choice. Do you think you can control me? I'm bigger than all of you put together. I will crush your petty concerns because I am....

The Invisible Hand

P.S. Don't miss the pay per view telecast of my match against Gravity coming to you soon on HBO.
May 18, 2007

12:47 PM

Rich writes:

Ben....

I tried that approach a looooong time ago. Since then I've kept myself busy. It's time for someone else to figure out how to get us out of this mess. I'll be in the cheering section. I'm too old and tired. I'll be a long forgotten memory by the time the shit hits the fan.

As they say....If you can't beat 'em. Fuck 'em.
May 18, 2007

12:51 PM

Mark Wolf writes:

An FYI:

Stan Weekes, executive director of Colorado Alliance for Immigration Reform, will be our online chat guest at 11 a.m. on Monday.
May 18, 2007

12:53 PM

JW writes:

Regarding Oregon's DHS,

In his letter to the governor, Goldberg said Medicaid caseload changes account for about $119 million of the gap. A reduction in federal payments to the state accounts for about $23 million and internal accounting issues add another $30 million. "

Thats your $172 million. How much is actually spent on illegals by the system?

Regarding the ER closures in Cali, uninsured patients and "Lowest in the nation Medicaid payments" appear to be the primary drivers. Uninsured would include many (probably most) illegals, but they are not singled out, as there are also many uninsured legals.

All this points to illegals as a burden, yes. But your claim that the cali-er closures were primarily caused by illegals is obviously disingenuous and false.

As for the Oregon stuff, looks like it is silly to provide those services to illegals when they are in the red. On the otherhand, what are the ramifications of stoping those services? As the entire budget shortfall has been accounted for and is not related to illegals, how much would shutting off those services actually help?
May 18, 2007

1:03 PM

anderson writes:

Mark Wolf, are you also planning to have someone with a different perspective than Weekes in the future? Obviously, he respresents a more extreme view.
May 18, 2007

1:12 PM

Matt writes:

shaggy,
Don't waste your time with anderson who is a racist and is in complete denial of reality.
May 18, 2007

1:19 PM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

Obviously, he respresents a more extreme view.
Posted by anderson on May 18, 2007 01:03 PM

Enforcing our borders is an extreme position? Last I read, protecting us from foreign invasion is actually part of the Constitutional mandate. Bush and all those who support this bill should be impeached for failing to uphold the constitutional mandate that they protect us from foreign invasion.
May 18, 2007

1:20 PM

shaggy writes:

JW,
Instead of me posting the article check this out please.
Check out the end part where an Ambulance was donated to a Hospital in Mexico where it was stolen and used to smuggle weed into Arizona

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/980.html.
May 18, 2007

1:32 PM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

Shaggy,

Your trailing period on your link kills the link. Here is the link without the period for anyone interested.

http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/980.html
May 18, 2007

1:35 PM

shaggy writes:

TY Hogar
May 18, 2007

1:45 PM

Tree writes:

Hogar-
New York, New Mexico, New USA,
do you think today is day 1 of a future civil war for power here in the new usa? Maybe when I'm long gone and ashed.
The rich have figured out how to keep the common folk out of power and labor cheap. They just did it. Time tested. Even the Roman empire collapsed.
When the new usa starts it's ethnic cleansing, who's coming with battleships and Halliburtons to steal our resources and spread liberty? Oh, about the Ethnic Cleansing, might as well throw in a Rod Sterling Twilight zone episode, it will be might whitey being cleansed.
May 18, 2007

1:47 PM

JW writes:

Shaggy,

Yes, I know about Bisbee and other border town's problems regarding Illegals.

However, if we look at what has been said about this bill so far (again, none of us have read it, it's 380 pages but only minimal explanation is currently available, etc) one of the major points of this bill is that, contrary to Hogar's stance, it has a mandate for increased border control.

Again, dunno if thats true yet. Need to see the actual legislation, and of course wait to see what changes are made in the Houses. I have even read that it mandates border control BEFORE any increase in work visas can be done. Until we get the final version though, who knows.

However, if those things are true, it will put a stop to the problems in border towns. By securing the border, people will have to use access points, rather than AZ, TX, CA, and NM ranch land and unpopulated crossings. That alone would help the Bisbee clinic. In addition, by allowing for work visas and a path to citizen ship, we will limit the amount of people who try to cross illegally. Again, this is two things that have to happen together to be effective. Border control is the most important. Without border control, nothing else matters. We will still have millions crossing illegally regardless of any type of path to citizenship/work visas.

No one that I know is saying there are NO issues with illegal immigration. Everyone understands there are problems there. The separation is not because some feel it doesnt matter and some feel it does. The seperation happens because some want to make sure they know exactly what the problem is AND figure out a good way to fix it (ME), and those who just freak out saying its a huge problem and lets kill, or deport, or whatever every illegal we can (emotional people who have simply not thought about possible concequenses if the wrong course is taken).
May 18, 2007

1:54 PM

MatD writes:

LINE EM UP AND SHOOT EM. THAT SHOULD GET THE MESSAGE ACCROSS. GO BACK TO CENTRAL AMERICA OR TAKE A BULLET. THIS REALLY ISN'T SO HARD AT ALL.
May 18, 2007

2:06 PM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

The only thing this bill does is legalize the foreign invasion. It is the equivalant of saving we have a very bad murder problem, so from now on you can killl anyone you want, as long as you fill out the right government forms. There that solves the murder problem!
May 18, 2007

2:09 PM

JW writes:

Hogar, youre doing the "Uniformed ignorance based opinion as fact" thing again.

What exactly does this legislation include? Its 380 pages mind you, so to actually prove you know enough about it to actually make a statement regarding its effect, you better write a book.

Of course, to do that, youd actually have to READ IT FIRST.

Youre just a useless mass of emotional partisan opinion.
May 18, 2007

2:10 PM

Tree writes:

Shagman, Hogar-
About that article you just posted. That happens anywhere where there is mass poor. During a holiday cocktail party back in Detroit, same issue from a doctor friend of mine. He billed $375K in 2006 and collected a fraction.
Yeah yeah I know, he can move, life's a bitch then you die.....
May 18, 2007

2:20 PM

history buff writes:

I'm interested to see what Michael Moore's new documentary, SICKO, has to say about the uninsured.
May 18, 2007

2:23 PM

Unidos En America writes:

Lawbreakers Are Lawmakers

"The United States Of America
might could have been better
off had it just let Latin America
run foreign affairs in this Country! "

"Thousands predict United Nations
and New Mexico Governor to be
Next President."
-Anonymous
May 18, 2007

2:23 PM

just sayin' writes:

The only thing this bill does is legalize the foreign invasion. It is the equivalant of saving we have a very bad murder problem, so from now on you can killl anyone you want, as long as you fill out the right government forms. There that solves the murder problem!

Posted by Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) on May 18, 2007 02:06 PM

I'm sorry but I don't equate murder with someone sneaking across the border to earn a better living. May be just over the top a little on that one. Now Hogar, there are a lot of Americans who don't want legal immigrants here either. It may be YOU that they are after next.
May 18, 2007

2:45 PM

Ben writes:

Just sayin,
Tell that to Donald Young's family.
May 18, 2007

2:45 PM

shaggy writes:

Numbers USA has the poll @
88% apposed
12% in favor

I`m beginning to wonder if this will even pass in the House.
Harry Reid wants to Vote on it before Memorial weekend.
That gives people to voice their outrage for about 6 days.
It sure seems like they want to get this thing done quickly before we all get a chance to see it and mass against it.
May 18, 2007

2:50 PM

John writes:

What part of LAWBREAKER don't you wimps who say it's ok to give amnesty to the illegal invaders understand? If you broke into Pat Bowlens home, you'd be breaking the law, and undoubtedly be arrested! I suspect most of us would like a "better life" but we don't break the law to get it!

If you let in mexicans by the millions, why not Chinese, Africans, Middle Easterners, etc?

Ok, so some prices go up because cheap labor isn't available. Taxes to pay to school their children (who can't speak English and bring down grade averages); medical insurance (who do you think pays the illegals medical bills?); and congestion would all go down! How did we get along without millions of them for 400 years???

The non latino US population went up 16% between 1980 and 2000. The latino population went up 141% during the same time!! At that rate, the US of Mexico will be 50% hispanic within 30 years!

Get real, people! Call your senators and congressman and demand they stop this BullSh**!
May 18, 2007

2:50 PM

shaggy writes:

just saying,
tell that to the kids of the Mom who was dragged for two miles behind a truck with a rope around her neck.
May 18, 2007

3:08 PM

just sayin' writes:

OK Ben and Shaggy a few years ago there were some rednecks in Texas who tied a black man behind their truck and dragged him to death. Using your logic, should we round up every white redneck in Texas and paint them with a brush that says they are guilty for the actions of few of their brethren? A vast majority of illegal immigrants are here trying to earn a better life. If you can't see that then you are blind.
("Blinded by the Right", is that a Springsteen song?)
May 18, 2007

3:09 PM

TexMex writes:

just if your illegal doesn't mean you got no rights. my family was illegal too but that was a long time ago too. we just work hard and don't mess up. illegals have the rights too. and you cant take them away because of that. so go back to europe if you done like it!!!
May 18, 2007

3:09 PM

mcfin17 writes:

If the US gives amnesty to the 12 million ILLEGAL immigrants after they pay a $5000.00 fine & fill out some paperwork, then how about the US reimbursing the millions of immigrants who came here legally? They saved money, waited a period of time for a Visa, then walked through the FRONT door. For those who continued on with gaining citizenship, they should be reimbursed for the cost of the background checks, application, fingerprinting and possible travel costs. Yes, travel costs. My neighbors had to drive to Nebraska, stay in a hotel and then get sworn in. Or, here's a better idea: Take the $5000 from the illegals and give it to the ones who came here legally!
May 18, 2007

3:14 PM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

Now Hogar, there are a lot of Americans who don't want legal immigrants here either. It may be YOU that they are after next.
Posted by just sayin' on May 18, 2007 02:23 PM

I am an American citizen. I have a CCP. I am not leaving.
May 18, 2007

3:18 PM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

JW,

If the House passes this bill, I will take 39 of your lashes without a whimper.

You need to understand the difference between humor, sarcasm, exaggeration, commentary and scholarly pursuit.
May 18, 2007

3:20 PM

RoyRoy writes:

Why don't we just annex Mexico as part of the US. No more illigel Mexicans. Problem solved!!
May 18, 2007

3:31 PM

Anonymous writes:

Jay, the fact check article clearly says that once illegals become legal they WILL get social security.
May 18, 2007

3:33 PM

JW writes:

"You need to understand the difference between humor, sarcasm, exaggeration, commentary and scholarly pursuit."

Tell you what,

Ill work on that if you will work on fixing your ignorance based opinions which you believe are fact.

You can start here,

www.fronline.org

I will start here:

http://www.savageresearch.com/humor/insanityTest.html
May 18, 2007

3:34 PM

NO AMNESTY writes:

Ted Kennedy invited the American Civil Liberties Union,
the National Immigration Law Center, the National Council
of La Raza, the Service Employees International Union,
the Chamber of Commerce and the Essential Worker
Immigration Coalition to help him craft his
Comprehensive immigration-reform bill.

Completely ignored in this process are American citizens!

SIGN THE PETITION AT:
grassfire.org
May 18, 2007

3:36 PM

mcfin17 writes:

TexMex,
What rights are you refering to? You have basic human rights. If you're not a legal U.S. citizen you do not have the same rights as legal citizens. Just because you broke an American law to get here does not give you the "right" to put demands on us. You certainly do not have the right to vote. If you have an issue with U.S. laws, then do the "right" thing: follow the procedures for obtaining legal status, do the required legwork to become a citizen, and then vote to change what you don't like. Better yet, take your so called "rights" back to your own country and fix the mess there. Don't blame the U.S. because your country sucks. Why don't you all try to FIX your country first. And for the record, my grandfather immigrated to the US via proper channels. What a novel idea, huh? You want the same rights as a U.S. citizen? Then suit up and we'll send you to Iraq or Afganistan to fight along side the very men and women who are fighting for the freedoms of the American people. No freebies, Tex Mex. You want rights? You'd better figure out a way to earn them.
May 18, 2007

3:47 PM

xlor82 writes:

"just if your illegal doesn't mean you got no rights. my family was illegal too but that was a long time ago too. we just work hard and don't mess up. illegals have the rights too. and you cant take them away because of that. so go back to europe if you done like it!!!"

You are wrong pal, it doesn't matter if they work hard or not. They broke the law to get here and they (and you if you are illegal) need to be deported. Illegals have a right to humane treatment but they do not have the rights of citizens. They are entitled to those rights in their own country and not ours. Do you think that in Mexico, China, or France that I would have the same rights as citizens of those countries? Absolutely not and I shouldn't. Just because your family sneaked through the system in the past doesn't mean that this lawbreaking should continue. I'm sorry that Mexico and some other countries aren't as nice to live in as the USA but we don't have a responsibility to take in anybody that sneaks across the border. If you aren't a citizen or legal resident GO HOME! You are not welcome here by the majority of the American public. This bill will never pass because the American people won't stand for it.
May 18, 2007

4:42 PM

jay writes:

"Jay, the fact check article clearly says that once illegals become legal they WILL get social security."

Yes Crouton...very good point. They won't be eligible until, like every other American citizen, they start contributing...meaning that they are no more likely to bankrupt the SS system than any other citizen. If you want to start looking at reasons for the failing health of social security(not a real problem for a few decades but still) try pointing your magnifying glass on the politicians who raid the account to cover up deficit spending.

I noticed that some of you from the far right are again mistaking online polls, in general, and specifically those from anti-immgration lobbyists as scientific and credible....not so much. Take a college level stats class and come back to reality. Here are the latest, credible, national, scientific polls on the matter:

CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. May 4-6, 2007. N=1,028 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

"Would you favor or oppose creating a program that would allow illegal immigrants already living in the United States for a number of years to stay in this country and apply for U.S. citizenship if they had a job and paid back taxes"

Favor 80%

Oppose 19%

USA Today/Gallup Poll. April 13-15, 2007. N=1,007 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

Which comes closest to your view about what the government policy should be toward illegal immigrants currently residing in the United States? Should the government require illegal immigrants to leave the U.S. and not allow them to return. Require illegal immigrants to leave the U.S., but allow them to return temporarily to work. Require illegal immigrants to leave the U.S., but allow them to return and become U.S. citizens if they meet certain requirements over a period of time. OR, Allow illegal immigrants to remain in the United States and become U.S. citizens if they meet certain requirements over a period of time."

Leave, Not Return 14%

Leave, Temporarily Return 6%

Leave, Return to Path of Citizenship 36%

Remain, Path to Citizenship 42%

Sorry kids...I know it annoys some of you to the ends of your sanity to be reminded once again that you're in the minority on this issue. I suggest you look at it realistically and come to terms with the fact that the vast majority of America doesn't agree with the far right position on nearly every single important issue facing the nation today...you'd think you'd be getting used to it.

Have a good weekend.
May 18, 2007

4:44 PM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

JW,

Thanks for the link, that was funny.

I have no problem differentiating between facts, opinions and beliefs. You seem to be under the impression that I am not entitled to my opinion. I will never argue about a fact, the problem is in establishing a fact. Is something a fact because enough people believe it? Who decides when something is a fact? Most of the comments that seem to set you off revolve around my opinions and predictions.

For example you think that Bush totally screwed up the Iraq war. The unfortunate thing is that no one will ever know if it was the best course, because there are no do overs in life. What if another course had resulted in a worse situation due to unforseen actions and consequences. You and everyone else for that matter is entitled to believe what you want about the Iraq war, but you can never prove that another course of action would have been better, or that a better situation would have resulted.

Everyone enjoy your weekend and tell someone that you care about something that you appreciate about them.
May 18, 2007

4:59 PM

anderson writes:

If you look closely, watch where the anti-Mexican crowd really stands on this issue: no reform. They want to piss and moan all day long, but when someone makes a serious attempt to resolve the problem (democracy in action), they don't want anything to do with it. They just want to keep pissin and moanin.
May 18, 2007

5:16 PM

Stop Illegal Immigration Now writes:

Senor Anderson
You're a little piss ant who couldn't make a real argument for ILLEGAL behavior so you hide behind some type of humanistic approach to validating your view. You need to move from this country into the third world instead of trying to bring it here. REAL AMERICANS DON'T WANT to turn America into another Tiajuana. Check it out, even Mexicans don't want it. Why do you think they're coming here. They're too lazy to fix their own country so they come here to live off of the hard work of the Americans. Then they call us stinking gringos, wave their flags, and make plans to turn the SouthWest into a Mexican annex.
Just to refresh your memory, here is what Chas posted a while back.
Augustin Cebada, Brown Berets; "Go back to Boston ! Go back to Plymouth Rock, Pilgrims! Get out! We are the future. You are old and tired. Go on. We have beaten you. Leave like beaten rats. You old white people. It is your duty to die . Through love of having children, we are going to take over.

Richard Alatorre, Los Angeles City Council. "They're afraid we're going to take over the governmental institutions and other institutions. They're right. We will take them over . . . We are here to stay."

Excelsior, the national newspaper of Mexico , "The American Southwest seems to be slowly returning to the jurisdiction of Mexico without firing a single shot."

Professor Jose Angel Gutierrez, University of Texas ; "We have an aging white America . They are not making babies. They are dying. The explosion is in our population . . . I love it. They are shitting in their pants with fear. I love it."

Art Torres, Chairman of the California Democratic Party, "Remember 187--proposition to deny taxpayer funds for services to non-citizens--was the last gasp of white America in California ."

Gloria Molina, Los Angeles County Supervisor, "We are politicizing every single one of these new citizens that are becoming citizens of this country . . . I gotta tell you that a lot of people are saying, "I'm going to go out there and vote because I want to pay them back."

Mario Obledo, California Coalition of Hispanic Organizations and California State Secretary of Health, Education and Welfare under Governor Jerry Brown, also awarded the Presidential Medal of Freedom by President Bill Clinton, " California is going to be a Hispanic state. Anyone who doesn't like it should leave."

Jose Pescador Osuna, Mexican Consul General , "We are practicing 'La Reconquista' in California ."

Professor Fernando Guerra, Loyola Marymount University ; "We need to avoid a white backlash by using codes understood by Latinos . . . "
May 18, 2007

5:38 PM

David (R) writes:

Anderson -

Actually, if you have been here very long, those of us against blanket amnesty have argued for some very solid and do-able points, which include:

1) Establish a fair and sustainable number of immigrants, probably moving back to the numbers in effect before 1965 before Congress changed them.

2) Secure the borders - without this, there will be no stemming of illegals, AND we cannot know who is coming into our country, including the possible "terrorists" that our brave soldiers are fighting and dying every day for (supposedly).

3) Develop a reasonable guest worker program that provides sufficient labor to American companies but also doesn't convey citizenship at a faster rate than any other non-citizen could receive.

4) Ensure that taxes and benefits systems are being paid into per the law, by the worker and the employer.

and the list goes on for another five to ten items, depending on who's list it is. We don't feel any of these things are unreasonable or oppressive.
May 18, 2007

5:46 PM

anderson writes:

Sounds like you're for fixing the problem, David. So am I. We may not agree on all points, but at least we're working toward a solution--unless I've misunderstood your post.
May 18, 2007

5:52 PM

JEC writes:

Anderson
After perusing the many posts you have made I find it difficult to believe you are for fixing the problem. Unless the problem you are trying to fix is the law which declares it is illegal to come into our country without checking in at the border.
May 18, 2007

6:44 PM

David (R) writes:

Anderson -

You seem to have understood that i would like to fix the problems - and that is correct.

In my opinion, we got where we are today in this issue because the problems weren't addressed during and following the Reagan amnesty. For many years before that, and ever since, government has looked the other way (and perhaps been rewarded for their compliance) while many people from many other countries came here to fill the many job openings, even if it was in defiance of the law.

If people from a poor nation can go someplace, anyplace, within reach, and greatly improve their income and their lives, they're going to consider doing it, even if it is "illegal". What have they had to fear? It's not like we hang or shoot people who cross our borders without permission (Mexico has, but that is beside the point).

We need a fair, comprehensive, and ENFORCEABLE set of laws that meets the needs of the businesses of America, supports and sustains our social support systems (taxes, welfare, etc), and is fair to the American worker. We simply can't take out our guns and start shooting people who don't belong here, or ignore the family situations involved - at the end of the day, when all is said and done, we are Americans and we have shown the world how to succeed financially, how to uphold freedom and understanding, and that compassion and a helping hand for others is at the ready. I suggest that we can control our borders, support business, protect our private interests, and maintain our position as the world leader in helping others, but it will take solutions rather than fighting amongst ourselves.
May 18, 2007

7:47 PM

Anonymous writes:

Chas.....
Nice getting pumped up with the carnales.... don't be to eager to take over America cause it won't happen as easily as you think. So if you think amnesty is going to be passed out like candy ..you're wrong. The polititions 'lied' again to apease your people. Our computer system is jacked...and to clear millions...you'll be a biejito. Remenber if they LIED TO US..LOS AMERICANOS. THEY WILL LIE TO YOU LOS MEJICANOS. Son menterosos.
May 18, 2007

9:45 PM

Ben writes:

David (R) Nice posts except for the amnesty part. I do not believe that the U.S.A. has the luxury of appeasement to, or compromise for, the illegal immigration lobby. It is time to draw the line in the sand. If not, you will see France like rioting in the streets, especially in recession or depression. They migrated north and can just as easily migrate south. It is not the hardship that is portrayed by the mainstream media. I personally know multiple Mexican families who haved move back to "lindo Mexico". They were involved in illicit activities, figure they are going to get popped and up and boogied in the middle of the night with their families back to Mexico. They have support systems and most have jobs before leaving Mexico. America lets in 2 million people legally, annually. We have a system for working/immigration now. It is simply ignored. Illegal aliens come for the benefits as much as to work. Misplacing sympathy is why we are in the mess now.
May 19, 2007

7:47 AM

David (R) writes:

Hi Ben -

I'm not sure which reference to amnesty you might be referring to, so I'll just give my view on it and then we can kick that around if you'd like.

I am not "pro amnesty" - neither do I know anyone who is, and that includes many friends and co-workers of Hispanic origin who are long-time citizens. I think granting amnesty conveys the wrong message to others, kind of an "open door" policy that invites future invasion. The reason I believe this to be true is because it is exactly how it has worked in the past, and I don't see any reason it would change.

I am anti-"anchor baby", but that requires a change in our law. Until these worthless humps in Congress change it, it is still the law and we can't hold it against immigrants if they use it to gain access to our system - it's human nature.

This bill seems to grant "legal status" and not citizenship. The illegals should not have any faster path to citizenship than anyone else, and the normal annual numbers should not be exceeded for their benefit. In fact, the numbers for total immigrants that are no greater than 500,000 total per year (not sure about the exact number) should be restored.

But first and foremost, the fence must be erected, patrolled, and maintained. No legislation that is passed, and no actions that are taken, will accomplish stemming the flow of illegals until that is done.

And by the way, any of them who utter the bullshit "reconquista" should be deported with no chance of return for work or citizenship. Come to America to be an American, or stay the Hell out - just that simple - if Mexico is so great that they want to "reclaim" territory for it, then they have no reason to come here for a better life, and they aren't welcome.

The next week should prove interesting as more information comes out about what this bill would, and would not, do and how it would do it. I'm really freakin' tired of legislation that is passed and then not funded, and/or not enforced. It's time for these DC vermin to stop "playing politician" and do some real work. While they're at it, maybe they can reduce their salaries to "average American" pay, join social security instead of their uber-elitist retirement plan, and restore our rights that were taken without much of a whimper from the American sheeple via the (un)Patriot Act. Yeah, right. We're going to have to go get those back folks.
May 19, 2007

8:32 AM

Ben writes:

David (R)
Again, nice post.
May 19, 2007

11:57 AM

Dirk Gently writes:

David (R) and Ben:

I think we have to be clearer about parsing "amnesty" and its ramifications. David, I think you've done this pretty well. But I want to make a clarification on my own view here: documentation is the first step to getting out of immigrants what most anti-immigrant voices claim they are not contributing: taxes, insurance, credit, etc. If these are satisfied, then the issue then becomes something else: is documentation enough, or are we also interested in controlling numbers or the "sorts" of people coming here?

This is a bit of a pickle in a number of ways. First of all, major industries like construction, agriculture, and manufacturing need huge pools of largely unskilled labor, and people who are willing to work these jobs. This usually means they don't have many other options, which is usually the result of lower education levels. So: good for these business, mixed results for the workers/immigrants, and potentially (POTENTIALLY, mind you) a drain on infrastructure because of the problems usually associated with this SES demographic.

If on the other hand we wish only to "let in" folks who are educated and contribute much more into the pool of social resources, you have the opposite problem of immigrants "taking jobs" from American citizens who are either lazy or unlucky, which of course is political dynamite.

Either way, businesses need the labor, but the healthcare and education systems in particular can't cope with the numbers that would result of fulfilling this labor shortage. What this says to me is that immigration as such is not the problem, after all: it's that our social systems and our economic systems are not matched up well. In short: immigration reform must also meet up with major reform in these other sectors in order for all the gear teeth to match up, if you see my meaning.

My view is that if we focus on these things in conjunction, then we can simultaneously make immigration less of a problem as well as fix the problems in these other sectors in a comprehensive way, all of which are long overdue. Further, this is a good way of sapping the rampant xenophobia and racism that is all too often tied into (and frankly underlies) much anti-immigration rhetoric.

As for "anchor babies," I think this is a pretty good compromise: all US citizens must take and pass a citizenship test, which is entirely about civics and civic responsibility. We can ensure that it's not culturally biased, but still provides the appropriate information. Because as much as I think the whole anchor baby issue is a big shame, I'm not nearly as worried about them as some slothful, arrogant, ignorant fuck who thinks he's entitled to the world merely because of the accident of his birth. So you're born in the USA? Big deal--do something productive other than buying up the XXXL shirts at Wal-Mart.
May 19, 2007

3:28 PM

shaggy writes:

Say Hello and Good-Bye to the "GOP" if this gets passed.

It will be a One Political Party Country.

Bye , Bye Miss American Pie, drove my Chevy to the Levy but the Levy was dry, and good off boys drinking whiskey and Rye, singing this is the day America Died, Yes , this is the day America Died.
May 19, 2007

5:03 PM

Chas writes:

To anonymousMay 18, 2007 07:47 PM
I showed those quotes to demonstrate the intentions of hispanic leaders, not to advocate their intentions. I am for LEGAL immigration and against ILLEGALS coming into this country. I am also against any annexation of American soil to some AZTLAN.
May 19, 2007

10:54 PM

Anonymous writes:

This whole thing is so sad, I am very sad for what was once a great country but the illegals will bring it down to their level like they are doing with the wages. I think Bush actually thinks this will solve the Social Security problem. I saw this coming years ago when the school my daughter was attending put her in a class with all mexicans who couldn't speak english and they thought my child should help them with that instead of learning herself. What a crock and they tried to make her father and I feel guilty because we wanted her in a regular classroom. They certainly think they are entitled to things don't they? I also remember talking with a Social Worker in L.A. who told me straight out that the Mexican father would get an apartment right next door to his wife and kids so they could get welfare! Wow, they got it going on don't they? Well, now that every other job is going to India or somewhere we need our jobs here more than ever and the Mexicans have already driven down the wages in Construction and alot of factory jobs that used to support families. Boy oh boy, somebody is making a bundle off of this great idea, but then we have been sold down the river for some time now and we're finally seeing the results of the Reagan Admin. busting the unions. I've got Mexican neighbors who just last week ran around trying to hide the license plates on a truck with a busted windsheild and they haven't been seen since. Gee do you really think they have any loyalty to America when they can break the law and run home to Mexico?
May 20, 2007

7:00 AM

David (R) writes:

Dirk -

You make some very good observations and points. You did what our fools in Congress failed to do; they address the business needs without considering impacts to other Americans and the services they've paid for over many years, or developing ways to protect same while providing protections and services for those they're welcoming into the work force.

One of the more frustrating aspects of our form of "representative government" (wink wink) is that I've made a number of suggestions over the past few years, and it is seldom that I ever receive a reply, much less see any action taken. I often get the feeling that the only thing we are needed for is elect people, and they go into office to do as they please instead of voicing for their electorate. In this day of computers and eye-blink communications, one would think that polling the people for direction would be a snap. Perhaps they don't want to know.
May 20, 2007

12:20 PM

David (R) writes:

I found this quote while perusing a website that deals with government oversight groups - I can't help but find a great deal of credence in it, and wonder how much more invasive government is now that when this gentleman coined the quote.

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
-- H. L. Mencken US editor (1880 - 1956)
May 20, 2007

12:29 PM

Dirk Gently writes:

David (R): Yes, sadly, the "will of the electorate" is too easily manipulated and dismissed. Obviously "the public" won't have consensus on everything, but all the big business handouts is pretty much the only truly meaningful bipartisan work that's done these days. We need to find a way to fix that so we can get things done on which most Americans agree (healthcare reform, energy reform), and disagreeing about stuff that matters (not, say, the details of a presidential candidate's religion or war record).

10:54: your frustrations are WOEFULLY misplaced. Illegal immigrants themselves do not drive wages down--why would they want less money? They are willing to accept lower wages, however, because that's better than having no job at all. If you want to blame someone for lower wages, blame the companies who pit laborers against each other and flout the rules by hiring illegals in the first place. It's the bastards in suits you should be upset with, not the simple folks in dungarees.

This goes for the education system, too. Obviously an influx of non-English speakers is a problem that has been exacerbated by illegal immigration. But this is still the case among legal immigrants, including refugees. Again, you're trying to blame the people who come here to learn a difficult language from scratch. Perhaps instead we need to focus on the lack of good systems in place to integrate them, the overcrowded schools and overworked and underpaid teachers, etc. But no, you just go ahead and blame immigrants while you cry foul at a .007 % tax increase for English language programs. While you're at it, make sure you vote for the pro-business, anti-labor candidate of your choice who will "fight for you" on immigration reform and cutting taxes (as well as the "family values" issue du jour), meanwhile working to ensure that big companies get huge tax cuts, are able to expand their operations overseas, and have all the political capital they like to fight things like unionization, which is ultimately about keeping wages higher and hiring documented workers.
May 20, 2007

2:38 PM

David (R) writes:

Dirk, JW, etc -

I also found this op/ed piece and I have read it several times attempting to absorb all the info and assertions. I'd appreciate it if you would read and comment if you have time.

The “Something for Nothing Army”, on the March!

https://www.thefuturestrader.us/archiveTA/tedbits-May04-07.pdf
May 20, 2007

4:47 PM

Mark Wolf writes:

Anderson,
Sorry I didn't get back to you on Friday. We're lining up someone from the Colorado Immigrant Rights Coalition for our Tuesday online chat. Just don't have a name yet.
May 20, 2007

7:41 PM

You right wingers have been sold out writes:

You loyal Bush supporters have been sold out for cheap labor. How does it feel? Bet you feel like those guys stuck in Iraq being paid low wages fighting their asses off and getting blown up for Bush's agenda on oil.

From Day one this administration has been lying to us. Did you finally wake up? Or are you still supporting him ( I see there is still some support for his Stooge, McCain)?

What is really sad is that some illegals just might be Saudis, the kind that really did 911. Not good
May 21, 2007

8:13 AM

Anonymous writes:

I am an American citizen. I have a CCP. I am not leaving.

Posted by Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) on May 18

Wasn't Jose Padilla a citizen? Didn't keep him out of Gitmo without a charge.
May 21, 2007

8:52 AM

Dirk Gently writes:

David (R):

I don't have time at the moment to log a full reaction to the piece, but in a nutshell, my reaction is quite mixed.

There are a few principles in the piece with which I broadly agree: the tax system needs reform, government spending often caters to the capitalist elite and not "the people," and so forth. However, I'm very skeptical of the implied solutions.

First of all, he appears to be looking only at one side of the equation. Even assuming his figures are right about how much tax burden the "rich" have, I shed only crocodile tears here, because this same rich is getter richer, where by comparison we have an underclass that is getting poorer and larger. It may well be that the middle class has a free lunch, but this doesn't necessitate a smaller tax burden for the wealthy--all indicators are they are doing just fine.

Secondly, in general the author definitely appears to take a supply-side, "free market" approach to economics, with which I disagree in a general sense. My problems with that view are complex and long-winded, but in general: it's great for freeing up capital, but it also concentrates capital among the already wealthy--there is no such thing as trickle down, as such (Hogar will no doubt take great issue with this).

There is also this: while in many respects the economic problems that the US and Europe face are in some respects brought on by the cost of their social programs, I for one am not willing to trade in social programs in order to make capitalism "better" or "free-er." The trick is to make these more efficient, to make them more comprehensive (personal consumer debt is related to food, energy, housing, and healthcare expenses--all of these fall under the purview of governmental regulation, which is required reform).

There is also this: globalization is a bumpy process, to oversimplify. China's doing great in the broader sense, but in a so-called Communist regime, the gap between rich and poor is among the most extreme on the globe, and they are also paying HUGE social and environmental costs to grow their economy as they have. I for one do not wish to return to the days of wanton pollution and labor exploitation merely to make the economy "grow" more rapidly. Frankly, I'm not sure that growing economies ad infinitum is possible or desirable in the end, anyway: this is a planet of finite resources, after all--we can't grow forever.
May 21, 2007

9:15 AM

JW writes:

David (R),

The guy makes some salient points, but his tone is a bit to "OH MY GOD!" for me.

Fairtax baby! That would get rid of several of the problems he points out, including our unfriendly business enviroment due to corporate taxes, and the problem of a monority of people paying the vast majority of taxes.

As for his take on globalization, best reform education NOW. Hes right that many people are going to be bumming because they are lacking the education to keep them competitive. Throw that together with not paying taxes, and it is quite possible for politicians to subsidize their re-election on the productive segment of society's dime.

Anyway, I guess I just prefer Friedman's take on the issue of Globalization. He's pragmatic about the challenges, but he's much more hopeful and positive, because even though there is a downside to globalization, the upside is opportunity like we have never seen.
May 21, 2007

9:22 AM

David (R) writes:

Hi Dirk -

That was actually a pretty encompassing review of the piece :)

The reason I asked for you, JW, and anyone else to look at it was mainly because, as I'm sure you saw, there seemed to be points that conflicted in a few places, and it did seem to be rather "one-sided" and not very objective in places.

Whenever I see something that sends up the yellow flags, I'll often ask for others to review and comment so that my own views and preferences don't over process what might be valid and credible points the presenter makes. One person can hardly know enough of the many topics involved in such a piece (tax system, deep national economic, fiscal, and monetary policy, corporate functionality, etc) to assimilate all of the information that might be presented.

If you think of other items later, I'd enjoy kicking them around, and I will re-read your latest post and then re-evaluate the piece. Thanks for taking the time to check it out.

You too JW, and I'm doing my part to push the FairTax with my congressional reps, family, friends, neighbors, and co-workers. If there is ever going to be a change, we're going to have to make it happen. By the way, one of the biggest positives for globalization in my opinion, is the reduction in the likelihood of war between nations who are economically tied to one another. If we can all stop hating and killing each other for a few decades, maybe we'll finally all learn that we're really far more alike than we are different.
May 21, 2007

9:33 AM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

To all the "thinkers" on this blog, here is an interesting article.

http://msn.careerbuilder.com/custom/msn/careeradvice/viewarticle.aspx?articleid=1016&SiteId=cbmsnhp41016&sc_extcmp=JS_1016_home1>1=9965&cbRecursionCnt=1&cbsid=ed75f4ba10804cd199b0b8703359aa80-233061310-TU-4
May 21, 2007

9:52 AM

JW writes:

"By the way, one of the biggest positives for globalization in my opinion, is the reduction in the likelihood of war between nations who are economically tied to one another. If we can all stop hating and killing each other for a few decades, maybe we'll finally all learn that we're really far more alike than we are different."

Totally agree. There has NEVER been a war between countries that have a McDonalds. Amazing huh?

This is also one of the central problems with arab regimes. They are not open. They simply cannot grow their economies. They throw anyone who critisizes their leadership in jail, and promote anti-Israel and anti-American sentiment through their media. They may tell us in a whisper "we are on your side" but by making sure their populace hates us, they make sure they are not held accountable by that same populace for their horrible leadership. Bad leadership sux.

If Bush and his cronies had a thimble of sense, they would be pushing for reform in these coutries, and trying to help the Iranian population with their reform initiatives. Instead, they are pissing the arab world off.
May 21, 2007

10:02 AM

shaggy writes:

The Senators trying to get this thing passed quickly remind me of a car salesman telling me I need to buy it today or never.
Anytime Kennedy starts smiling about a bill that he helped write needs to be approached with extreme caution.

All this Bill does is cater to big biz to cut out the middle class American trying to feed his family and give those jobs to cheap Labor.
Our Gov. is not listening to the people that put them in office.
It will be concieved to the Illegals that is was the Dems that got them their Citizenship so they will then turn Democratic once they are allowed to Vote and that will be the end of the GOP.

This is why the Dems want this thing passed so quickly. It will be a one Political Country which will be the beginning of the end.
May 21, 2007

10:02 AM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

Posted by Tree on May 18, 2007 01:45 PM
"do you think today is day 1 of a future civil war for power here in the new usa?"

It certainly brings us closer to that eventuality.

"The rich have figured out how to keep the common folk out of power and labor cheap. They just did it. Time tested. Even the Roman empire collapsed."

That is why I want to see all corporate participation eliminated from politics.

"When the new usa starts it's ethnic cleansing, who's coming with battleships and Halliburtons to steal our resources and spread liberty?"

I certianly hope it never comes to that.

"Oh, about the Ethnic Cleansing, might as well throw in a Rod Sterling Twilight zone episode, it will be might whitey being cleansed. "

That ain't gonna happen.

Have you ever heard of Groove Dawgs? Two guys that look right out of ZZ Top. One guy on acoustic guitar who sings and another guy blowing the harp. They were outside of the Supreme Court Friday night.
May 21, 2007

10:05 AM

Jay writes:

Why does it not surprise me that the RMN has a representative of a white sepratist, anti-immigration group on their "chat" about illegal immigration reform...
May 21, 2007

10:11 AM

Mark Wolf writes:

Jay,
Moved your comment to this post.
By the way, we'll have a representative from the Colorado Immigrant Rights Coalition online at 11 a.m. Tuesday.
May 21, 2007

10:23 AM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

They are certainly not extreme.

"In January 2003, CIRC released a legislative platform at a highly attended press conference on the steps of the state Capitol. The platform included:

driver's licenses for all immigrants, regardless of status

in-state tuition for qualifying immigrants who graduate from state high schools

statewide acceptance of the matricula consular identification cards issued by the Mexican Consulate as official ID

defeat of English-Only bills similar to Amendment 31

defeat of attempts to cut all Medicaid benefits to legal immigrants "

http://www.afsc.org/central/ImmigrantRights/CIRC.htm

As an American citizen who got in legally and jumped through all the hoops to become a citizen, I think we do not need more laws, we simply need to enforce our existing laws, and take away all tax payer funded benefits for all those who are not citizens.
May 21, 2007

10:25 AM

jay writes:

Hogar, making decisions on gut instinct has its purposes...on the hill, on the river, maybe hunting or fishing to a point....but I'd prefer our leaders make well-informed, intensely studied decisions. I certainly don't agree with W's penchant (and bold bragging) about making decisions "from the gut"...particularly when lives are at risk. Considering his track record, it's pretty easy to discount his decision-making process.

In regards to Dave's article...I came to most of the same conclusions that JW and Dirk have already outlined. I will say that without a level labor standards playing field, the US will continue to hemorrhage jobs and capital to other parts of the world...at the expense of our lower and middle classes. JW's statement of "the problem of a minority of people paying the vast majority of taxes" is confusing to me. The minority of people make the vast majority of money in this country...and should obviously then be paying a vast majority of the taxes. I’m not saying that our current tax system doesn’t need to evolve…but I don’t believe that our upper class need anymore tax breaks at the expense of the financial health of our country…especially in time of war. Our current policies have widened the class gap...the rich are getting richer while the poor get poorer...and I'll continue to point out that despite that fact, recent policy decisions have changed the tax code to shift a share of the tax burden from the upper to the middle class. Trickle down economics simply doesn't work...as has been proven twice over. I wonder how many times we have to go through this "experiment" before its inherent deficiencies make it unpalatable to the voters.

Thanks Mark...although I wish you would have corrected my spelling first:) I appreciate that you have someone on both sides of the debate...although I would hope that self-described white separatists are poor representatives of the anti-immigration movement. Of course I've been wrong before...
May 21, 2007

10:31 AM

jay writes:

By the way...can some of you on the far right tell me the difference between a white supremacist and a white separatist?
May 21, 2007

10:46 AM

Anonymous writes:

One believes in white supremacy the other a seperate homeland for white people.
They are intertwined in their beliefs.

Why does one have to be on the "far right to understand that?
Are you trying to pull a quick left jab at someone??
May 21, 2007

10:59 AM

jay writes:

Not at all Crouton...I just assumed that because these type of groups are almost completely constructs of the far right I thought someone with that mindset would be able to give us some unique perspective on their differences...and more importantly...on their similarities.
May 21, 2007

11:00 AM

JW writes:

"JW's statement of "the problem of a minority of people paying the vast majority of taxes" is confusing to me. The minority of people make the vast majority of money in this country...and should obviously then be paying a vast majority of the taxes."

What happens when people that pay taxes are the minority in this country? It will mean politicians no longer have to deal with that pesky tax issue. If the majority dont pay them, what do they care? And if the majority dont pay taxes, how much support can a politician gain by saying they are going to raise taxes like mad to provide services? Scary situation I think. That said, slightly more than 50% of Americans currently pay income tax, so we are not there yet. Keep in mind, when that changes that same politician that says they will raise income taxes like mad (making the middle foot ALL the income tax bill) can also say they will cut capital gains taxes to garner rich people's support. Just UGLY.

" I’m not saying that our current tax system doesn’t need to evolve…but I don’t believe that our upper class need anymore tax breaks at the expense of the financial health of our country…especially in time of war."

I would agree with this. I think the fairtax is the way to go. That said, when you are talking about Income taxes specifically, you are NOT talking about the rich. The rich dont pay income taxes.

"Our current policies have widened the class gap...the rich are getting richer while the poor get poorer...and I'll continue to point out that despite that fact, recent policy decisions have changed the tax code to shift a share of the tax burden from the upper to the middle class. "

Id agree with the idea that the tax burden has been shifted to the middle class, only because of tax breaks for capital gains. However, I dont think the "Rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer" has as much to do with tax code as it does with education spending, and the complete lack of any retraining for those who lose their jobs to globalization. We just stick them on welfare and watch them rot.
May 21, 2007

11:08 AM

jay writes:

"What happens when people that pay taxes are the minority in this country? It will mean politicians no longer have to deal with that pesky tax issue. If the majority dont pay them, what do they care? And if the majority dont pay taxes, how much support can a politician gain by saying they are going to raise taxes like mad to provide services? Scary situation I think. That said, slightly more than 50% of Americans currently pay income tax, so we are not there yet. Keep in mind, when that changes that same politician that says they will raise income taxes like mad (making the middle foot ALL the income tax bill) can also say they will cut capital gains taxes to garner rich people's support. Just UGLY. "

Everyone pays taxes of some sort so theres's no chance that a minority will ever be the only ones swayed with the financial carrot and the stick. I'm saying that as the minority make the most money in this country...they should then pay the most taxes. I get tired of folks saying, "the rich pay by far the most taxes" as justification for tax breaks geared towards the wealthy at the expense of those systems (education, social services, etc) that exacerbate the divide between the haves and have nots. I think we're in agreement here JW...just wanted to qualify.
May 21, 2007

11:39 AM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

JW,

The McDonalds thing is simply not true any more, but commerce is a great hedge against war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_McDonald's_franchises
May 21, 2007

11:41 AM

Ben writes:

Thanks Stan for your energy and efforts. There are many, many Americans who are progressively begining to hear messages like yours, in the face of a mainstream media that is in the tank for amnesty and pro-illegal immigration. (But thank you RMN for the forum, Il be sure to miss the propaganda tomorrow) You will see this effect from the media right here on these blogs as some will twist and turn and try to erroneously and deceptively rationalize the silent invasion that is, and has, taken place. Please continue to fight the good fight.
May 21, 2007

12:06 PM

JW writes:

"The McDonalds thing is simply not true any more, but commerce is a great hedge against war."

None of these countries declared war on one another. Closest you can get is the US/Panama thing. Ukraine was a civil war. The so called "Kargil War" was pretty close as well, though again, no declaration of war. Israel/Lebanon is the same thing.

Anyway, Friedman talks about that. He specifically said no "war" between countries with a McDonalds, but that there had been civil war, and armed conflict in a few instances.

But hey, you finally got a point Hogar! Good for you! And I notice that even though you said it wasnt true, you did grasp the central concept, which is that any society with an economic system capable of sustaining a McDonalds is less apt to go to war with another one, IE: "commerce is a great hedge against war."
May 21, 2007

12:09 PM

JW writes:

"Everyone pays taxes of some sort so theres's no chance that a minority will ever be the only ones swayed with the financial carrot and the stick."

According to the fairtax book, the percentage of Americans who pay NO INCOME tax is in the 40's, and growing. That was what I was talking about. That is also what politicians talk about when they address the tax issue. Some limited discussion about capital gains taxes may also take place.

" I'm saying that as the minority make the most money in this country...they should then pay the most taxes."

Communist. :)

Seriously though, the Fairtax address that as well.
May 21, 2007

12:21 PM

Ben writes:

The government solution to a problem is usually as bad as the problem.

Milton Friedman
May 21, 2007

1:09 PM

Rojo writes:

I highly recommend you turn on CPAN 2 and wathc the Senate debate on this Amnesty Bill. Thank God for Senator Sessions and Bunning. These guys truly get it compared to our "Clueless Salazar" who feels his duty is to the illegal aliens and to Wayne Allard who is afraid to stand up for American Citizens because he may lose some hispanic votes . Shame on the Colorado delegation!
May 21, 2007

3:08 PM

shaggy writes:

Seems to me like the Illegals are not hiding in the dark.
They go out to protest and demand we give them Citizenship and whatever other hand-out they want.

So once these some 12-25 million Illegals become Legal, won`t they then just demand to be paid the higher wages the Legals get now??

So then the Big Biz`s will encourage more Illegals to work for lower wages.
This will just become a never ending rotation.
What a joke.
If we would just enforce our excisting Laws and stop Big Biz`s from running and ruining this Country, it will all go away IF THE BORDER GETS CLOSED.
May 21, 2007

4:30 PM

GOP SOLD!!! writes:

It seems there is a bipartisan approach to taking campaign donations from corporations for cheap labor while screwing the American workers. They had laws and they chose not to enforce them. THIS IS AMNESTY AND IT IS BULLSHIT!!! The only people they are protecting are law breakers!!! I guess the oil companies in Oklahoma can keep their illegal labor instead of just turning some of those record profits into AMERICAN jobs. Some GOP people should remove Bush if he doesn’t veto this crap. The GOP has been sold to the highest bidders.
May 21, 2007

6:05 PM

David (R) writes:

GOP SOLD -

Just something to ponder here, but the GOP has seemingly had plenty of help from the Dems all the way along. And, you may or may not have noticed, but the Dems thus far haven't actually done much of anything to stop King George II. I still maintain they are all alike, two two different sides of the same coin, but no substantive difference - lots of huffing, puffing, and grousing, but not actual changes. As I've said before, we've got 1000 people in DC ignoring the people, literally bullying us with their power and our money. Sweet job if you can get it.
May 21, 2007

8:24 PM

jingo jango writes:

what a hoot. love the chorus of calls from the Patriot!!!! Act gang that they (NOW) need time to "look at this closely"...afraid it might get rammed down their throats like the PATRIOT!!!!!!!!!! Act was.

I'm so proud to be an American! Patriot!!!! I'm a GREAT 'merican!

Oh...wait...The Americas includes Central and South America. Dang. Guess I'm going to have to call myself a White 'Merican Patriot!!! You know, the 'Merica that us white folks EARNED. Cept for Canada.

Those injuns didn't deserve it. Wasn't in their destuny.

Them negroids and china-men certainly didn't earn it. They's was slaves, after all, and got a free ride here. And room and board. Freeloders.

Nope: only us white, English-speakin' Christuns earned it. Paid for in blood, sweat, tears, a few hundred bucks here and there, and a whole LOT of blankets and booze.

We just gotta get RID of these beaners. You just KNOW most of them are really Iracky terr'r bombers, and...well...you just can tell them apart. They all look the same, ya know. Their FOR SURE bringin' they're dubya-em-Dees over from Irock that was hid by Sadam in them sans.

God gave me and us this country. It is holy ground - a christun natiun. Never forget that!!!

No amisty for the wetbacks! they coming for my job, my white girlfriend, my white Ford F SuperDuty, my kids, and my white house. Maybe my white Expedition too. you know they drink a lot, doncha? probly driving drunk lots and killing teenager girls. they just walk away from those kinds of accidents no harm no foul. the police can't lay a finger or billy club on em cuz they will be sud.

also, No english = no pass go. direct to jail for you. we deserve to put your anchor baby on an anchor and throw it in the lake with the anchor chain.

I hate mexican food, too. Except taco bell. And Chili's. And Qdoba.

Only Italian food for us. All 'merican!!!

I'm a great white 'merican. Hannity tole me so, so it must be true.
May 21, 2007

9:57 PM

Absolutely NO Amnesty writes:

To the straight faced congresspeople who claim that the proposed bill is not amnesty:

In 1986 there was mass legalization granted to illegal immigrants with a future plan for enforcement.

In 2007 there is a mass legalization granted to illegal immigrants with a future plan for enforcement.

Does anyone notice the pattern?
May 21, 2007

10:12 PM

Perdition writes:

Well, now that the regurgitation of the 1986 failed policy is having itself revealed to the disinfecting rays of sunlight, it will be soundly defeated as more working Americans recognize the jeopardy it creates for jobs and the unfunded mandate (read taxpayer liability) it forces on us after 20 million new welfare and medicaid applicants line up for benifi-stas.

Maybe now we can concentrate on getting all of this illegal immigrant energy focused on the benevolent mother countries that so lovingly forced them to trek the desert. That would be a welcome change of topic.
May 22, 2007

7:10 AM

David (R) writes:

All - although I haven't had time to look at it yet (got a 75 minute drive to work), I got an email from grassfire.org that they say they give a detailed analysis of the immigration bill, so I thought I'd post the link. Remember that this is just an analysis and not necessarily void of bias on their part:

http://www.grassfire.org/19042/offer.asp?rid=11608586

Click "Special Report" in the yellow box on the left for the analysis, and "Senate Bil" to see the actual bill.
May 22, 2007

8:10 AM

JW writes:

David (R),

Once youve had a chance to read that "Special Report" let me know if you think it was as ABSOLUTELY USELESS as I did.

This is why I say people need to stop thinking with their emotions. These "grassfire" people scream that the bill is amnesty from the first line. And hey, you can take it that way.

Me? I see that first part as a way to get all these illegals into the system, which is a NEEDED first step for whatever you want to do. Simply costs too much to root them out and deport them. Get them in the system. Get them paying taxes. No, its not perfect, but it is a good way to figure out what is going on based on real numbers.

But that report certainly isnt an analysis of the whole bill. Basically, its an analysis of the firts line in a 380 page doc.
May 22, 2007

8:22 AM

Ben writes:

Jordan, Immigrants already have rights. You must mean illegal aliens. Please look up illegal. If these where white Europeans doing the exact same thing, I bet you would not be involved with CIRC.
May 22, 2007

8:26 AM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

JW,

They said the same thing in 1986. We are simply going to repeat the failed policy of 1986 21 years later, with more money being spent to implement a failed policy. I say if you come into this country illegally, you can never become a citizen and you can never collect any tax payer funded benefits.
May 22, 2007

8:32 AM

truthy writes:

Keep puttin' lipstick on that pig boys. There are plenty lined up to kiss it.
May 22, 2007

8:50 AM

Guess What? writes:

Guess what?

Lou Dobbs just reported that this bill was lobbied for by a bunch of illegals. Yes an Illegal immigant lobby. LOL

out country is on the take from illegals? Geez it won't be long before there is an Al Queda lobby.

we are really screwed.
May 22, 2007

8:56 AM

Anonymous writes:

Someone needs to stop this train wreck now.
May 22, 2007

9:04 AM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

Let me start by apologizing for going slightly off track, but I just found this and wanted to share it . An article about the fight in court and print, which eventually lead to a friendship between Larry Flynt and Jerry Falwell. I post it because I think it is a model for disagreement without hatred.

On this issue of illegal invasion, we can disagree without attacking each other.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-op-flynt20may20,1,6624077.story?ctrack=1&cset=true
May 22, 2007

9:05 AM

Ben writes:

It seems everyone but 280 million American citizens are at the "compromise" table dictating the writing of immigration laws. In some instances actually writing them. Big business, socio-ethnic hispanic groups, special interest groups ie. CIRC, big business interests, religious groups.
The someone that needs to stop this trainwreck is the YOU. Each individual must make the sacrifices to contact public officials, business and religious groups etc., as I know many have.
May 22, 2007

9:14 AM

Phil writes:

How about a piece of slanted, racist tripe to start your day:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/21/navarrette/index.html
May 22, 2007

9:27 AM

shaggy writes:

Ben,
I hear what you are saying.
The problem is even after you contact your Public Officials, they don`t care what you or I want.
They will do what they want regardless.
Hickenloper and Ritter want this State to be a Sanctuary State.
They want Illegals here.
Remember, Hicky hires them at his Bars and Restuants.
We have already voted them into office so why should they care that overwhelmingly the Majority of people want this stopped.
What they want outweighs what you and I and the whole State wants.
May 22, 2007

9:51 AM

JW writes:

"They said the same thing in 1986. We are simply going to repeat the failed policy of 1986 21 years later, with more money being spent to implement a failed policy."

What about that policy made it a "failure"?

Are those issues which made the '86 legislation addressed in this legislation?
May 22, 2007

9:53 AM

jay writes:

I am glad that Congress is taking their time on this issue. It is too complicated to rush. We've seen too many instances over the past 6 years of Congress needlessly undermining the time honored process of debate to push through midnight votes and the like. Let's give it some air. It is clear that the majority of people in the US want a path to citizenship for those illegal immigrants who qualify, but we need to make sure this legislation is well rounded in its efforts to shore up border security, take into account future employment needs and penalties for businesses who stray from the plan and adequately screen those already here. I like the fact that this Congress is going to take its time and try to get a bill that maximizes the benefits to our economy and minimizes the threats to our security. I don't see anything wrong with that. I do see a number of folks on this blog who have yet come to terms with the fact that there will be a path to citizenship for those who qualify. That being said, I think they have every right to demand better enforcement of our laws and borders. I think there is more work to be done on this bill...but some of its tenants are inevitable and very widely supported. It is time for some to wrap their minds around that.
May 22, 2007

9:57 AM

Ben writes:

"It is clear that the majority of people in the US want a path to citizenship" jay

No it's not.

It's clear we want laws enforced and borders controlled and secured. Or as you put it "shut down the border" and "mass deportation".
May 22, 2007

9:57 AM

David (R) writes:

JW -

I agree. All these different organizations have their agendas, some not as disguised as others. I do see their passion for the side they represent, and as Hogar mentions, there is ample reason to suspect that stemming the flow and ending up with a similar issue in ten or fifteen years could happen again.

I'm trying to wade through the actual bill, and I have to say there are lots of things that are vague and ambiguous. And there are a few "some miracle will happen here" issues. I know there will be a lot of hammering and fashioning to get a more finished product, but it will take a bit.
May 22, 2007

10:07 AM

JW writes:

"I do see their passion for the side they represent, and as Hogar mentions, there is ample reason to suspect that stemming the flow and ending up with a similar issue in ten or fifteen years could happen again."

As I asked Hogar, what about that '86 legislation made it a failure, and does this new legislation address those issues?

Also, the only way we wont have to address this issue in the future is if we are no longer the place EVERYONE on earth wants to live. Personally, Id rather stay the global superpower with freedom and oportunity we are, and deal with people wanting to come here so bad they will do it anyway they can. The alternative is worse by far.

That said, no reason we shouldnt secure our borders, and many reasons we should.
May 22, 2007

10:17 AM

David (R) writes:

JW said, ".... what about that '86 legislation made it a failure, and does this new legislation address those issues?"

I'm just not an expert on the '86 legislation, but from what I've heard, it was really a lack of funding which led to a lack of enforcement. If this current bill is going to suffer the same thing, then I'd just as soon they didn't waste their time.

More than anything else, I believe we have a right and a responsibility to know who is in our country, and why. To that end, I have to wonder if putting up 700 miles of fence on a 2100 mile border isn't just adding a degree of difficulty to illegal entry, instead of really dealing with the whole enchilada.
May 22, 2007

10:18 AM

Not alarmist or terrified writes:

Ben and Shaggy,

Sometimes you contact your reps and they don't do what you want because lots of other people disagree with you. They were elected by lots of people who do not think immigration from the south will end the world. Many of us would like to see a sensible approch that invites people to join our society. Of course that may bring change, but capitolist and free societies adapt to change. Those that adapt the best are rewarded. I think many uneducated monolingual Americans are simply afraid of a little healthy competition. Many are afraid that our culture will change, but it has been changing and evolving for 200 years. The constitution simply does not allow us to make decisions based on fear of cultural change.

Undocumented immigrants have broken laws, and this bill asks them to pay a fine and go through a good deal of hardship. They are not felons, and they will pay back society. If you would rather keep them out of the tax base, then go ahead, encourage our leaders to not pass any kind of reform in the next few weeks.

This nation is so steeped in fear of others. Go out, make some new Mexican friends, have a Corona, do some yard work together and quit being so stingy.
May 22, 2007

10:26 AM

Ben writes:

There are 20 million reasons for the failure of 1986 Immigration Reform Act. What have they done to deal with it? Well, here we are 20 years and 20 million illegals later.

Alarmist, It's ALL about the competition. I am bilingual (Spanish) and move in diverse circles. Maybe you should be alarmed and terrified, but's that's just my observation. You can be the grasshoper, I'll be the ant.
May 22, 2007

10:31 AM

jay writes:

Benny...I don't know how many times I have to give you proof that the majority of Americans disagree with your myopic viewpoint on a guest worker program. You can choose not to believe it...but that doesn't make you any less incorrect. Like I said...you need to come to terms with it or get your at least wrap your mind around that fact...or you're going to drive yourself insane. Just trying to help. The fact that you're in the minority on the path to citizenship doesn't make your other concerns about the immigration legislation any less valid. As I said, I like the fact that Congress is taking its time and trying to put together a package that is robust in its ability to enforce our border and ensure we get to keep the immigrants who are good for our economy and deport the ones who aren't. With that said, I seriously doubt we'll get a bill that pleases everyone or that is a panacea to all of our immigration woes...but I like the fact that they're trying to address an issue that has gone unresolved for far too long.
May 22, 2007

10:32 AM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

JW,

The thing that was wrong with the 86 bill is the same thing that is wrong with this bill. They were both redundant as there has always been a Constitutional mandate for the Federal government to protect the states from invasion. The fact that our government has failed to fulfill this mandate is grounds, in my opinion, for impeachment of Bush. If they will not enforce the Constitution, they did not enforce the 86 bill, what makes anyone think they will enforce this bill? We are being invaded and we need to stop all movement in the direction of rewarding those who enter illegally. We need to flood the country with legal immigrants and totally cut off the illegal immigrants from any hope of citizenship and any hope of getting any tax advantages. The legal immigrants will displace the illlegals and the illegals will have public teet to sustain them. Just say no to rewarding criminals, even nice hard working criminals. Just say yes to rewarding legal immigrants who respect our laws and wait in line.
May 22, 2007

10:48 AM

shaggy writes:

Alarmist,
Please show me just one poll that favors Illegal Immigration.
I am for Legal Immigration.
I am not for awarding people who already broke our Laws and want ammends now that they are already here.
The people who came here Illegally are trying to shove it down our throats.
They broke the Law and should get escorted out of here.
If they want to come back then get in ine like the rest.
They don`t want that though, they just want it handed to them.
They don`t assimulate, learn our Language, pay taxes.
They do bring wages down, bankrupt hospitals, crowd the jails send their money home.
Their is this one case of a little Mexican girl here illegally since she was in kindergarten and is now Graduating and she doesn`t speak a word of English.
Yep we really want these kind of people in our society.
If we would just enforce our excisting Laws and close the Border it would all go away.

Besides do you really think most of the Illegals will go back and pay the fine and do it Legally??
I don`t.
May 22, 2007

11:04 AM

JW writes:

"There are 20 million reasons for the failure of 1986 Immigration Reform Act."

Jeez. If thats true, it seems to me you could have taken the time to name ONE.

"The thing that was wrong with the 86 bill is the same thing that is wrong with this bill. "

LOL. Hogar, have you READ the BILL? NO? So you dont actually KNOW whats wrong with the bill? Any by extention you dont actually KNOW what was wrong with the '86 bill?

How many times do I have to call you out for posting your "Feelings" and "Beliefs" as fact before you realize, "whoa. Maybe I ought to do some tiny bit of research before I say this. I dont know WTF Im talking about...again....and JW will nail me to the cross for it...again."

"They were both redundant as there has always been a Constitutional mandate for the Federal government to protect the states from invasion."

Funny, as I have read, this new proposal does have parts that REQUIRE securing out borders. Seems to me you would like that. Since they arent doing it even though the constitution mandates it, maybe we NEED this kind of bill.

And besides, all the news today is talking about what I said two days ago...REVISIONS in the house and senate are VERY LIKELY. You monkies need to settle down and think.

"The fact that our government has failed to fulfill this mandate is grounds, in my opinion, for impeachment of Bush."

There are all kinds of grounds to impeach this prick, and they are all WAY more relevant than a BJ. Im starting to be as pissed at Dems for failing to fulfill their duty by impeaching this criminal as I was with Republicans for wasting my money on a side show out of spite.

"If they will not enforce the Constitution, they did not enforce the 86 bill, what makes anyone think they will enforce this bill? "

Which parts of the '86 legislation were not enforced?

"We are being invaded and we need to stop all movement in the direction of rewarding those who enter illegally."

How?

"We need to flood the country with legal immigrants and totally cut off the illegal immigrants from any hope of citizenship and any hope of getting any tax advantages."

I would agree with this. We need to secure the border. We need to make sure that any immigrant is paying taxes, regardless of how much money they make. They can stop paying taxes if they are poor when they become citizens. But, how do we get rid of those already here? How do we "cut off the illegal immigrants from any hope of citizenship " while dealing with the problem? Seems to me the supposed tennets of this legislation are at least PRACTICAL, even if they arent perfect. Ive heard nothing from you emotion junkies that is PRACTICAL. That said, if youve got a practical solution that wont cost more than its worth, hell, Im all ears.

"The legal immigrants will displace the illlegals and the illegals will have public teet to sustain them. Just say no to rewarding criminals, even nice hard working criminals. Just say yes to rewarding legal immigrants who respect our laws and wait in line."

Sure. And central to this is the need to secure our borders. Blocking access to America is the ONLY way you will stop people from coming here illegally. In the mean time, we need to deal with those already here using a method that works, rather than a method that caters to your overly emotional zealotry.
May 22, 2007

11:22 AM

Ben writes:

We don't have to do a damn thing until we have control over our borders, ports and immigration systems now. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous.
May 22, 2007

12:20 PM

just sayin' writes:

I flew over the Canadian border last year. If anyone thinks we are going to build a fence they are crazy. We might as well plan on building an escalator to the Moon.
May 22, 2007

12:30 PM

Ben writes:

just sayin,

Fly over the Mexican border near Arizona so you can truly comment with some knowledge. The Minutemen Project has already put up I believe, 11 miles of fence. In NM, the Seabeas are putting up miles of vehicle barriers at Columbus. In San Diego they have 14 miles of fencing and it has made all the difference in border security there. Yuma, Texas etc. If placed stategically and not set up for failure, the fence is a major component of border security. Funny enough, it is the last to get implemented and the first to get the "defeatist" attitude applied to it's construction.
May 22, 2007

12:36 PM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

JW,

My point was that they did not need a bill in 86 to secure the border, they already have the Constitutional mandate. The problem is that people, including our government, basically do what they want to do. What the 86 bill did was to reward those who broke the law. This law likewise rewards those who break the law. What we need beside a fence like they have in San Diego, which moved the problem is an identification process that is secure and biometric to prevent those here illegally from getting any taxpayer funded benefits and make sure they never gain citizenship rights. That way we do not have to deport them unless they committ a crime, but their benefits are reduced as a result of their illegal status.

The mistake of 86 was to reward illegal behavior. What you reward will increase.

I am going to present an example, which I will state before hand is not meant to be demeaning to any person. My objection is not with any person, but rather their actions. Good people speed and they still get tickets.

What is being done in this bill, is the equivalent of giving car theives new cars. It is the equivalent of putting special dandelion fertilizer on your lawn when you discover that you have dandelions in your lawn. When you reward what you do not want, you get more of it. I would not allow any more immigrants from Mexico until the rest of the world that is patiently waiting in line gets a chance to come in. Mexico has used up its quota for the next 20 years. It is time to be fair and diverse with the entire world, not just the people that Mexico wants to get rid of.
May 22, 2007

12:47 PM

David (R) writes:

Ben said, "....until we have control over our borders, ports and immigration systems..."

I agree with you, and I don't really recall seeing a dissenting opinion on this. But I was thinking about a kind of multi-faceted approach that might be good, or develop into other solutions that would work.

It seems to me that we really have two main items to get under control, before anything else:

1) Secure our borders. This involves building a fence from the Pacific to the Gulf. It needs to be 30' high, with razor wire at the top, and laced with cutting/breakage detectors. Cameras need to monitor based on movement, and there needs to be an outpost every 40 miles for quick response to potential breaches.

2) Register the illegals and fine the companies who employ them if they aren't registered. Pick a reasonable time for registering those in the country (regardless of where they are from) illegally - say one or two years. Get the word out to the entire nation that registration is required, and failure to do so by the deadline date will result in uncontestable deportation, without the possibility of legal entry. Explain that making their presense known, along with who they work for and how much they make, will be the first step in creating a guest worker database that they would be part of. Make it known that there are a set of rules that, if followed, will favor their ability to stay. The idea is not to scare the crap out of people, but to enforce the laws that are suppoed to rule our nation.

After the registration deadline, illegals would be apprehended and deported as they are found, and/or resources at ICE allow things to progress. This requires deletion of the anchor baby law. It also requires legislation that really whacks employers hard for having illegals work for them, which would encourage employers to help their undocumented workers comply with the system. It would add revenues to the tax base.
May 22, 2007

1:08 PM

Ben writes:

David (R)

1. I agree

2. Not so much. Possession is 9/10/s of the law. Give them an inch and they will take a mile. Next comes full blown citizenship, full benefits, chain migration etc. population swells, demographic changes and subsequent/eventual amnesty and down comes your number 1 and 2.4 trillion dollars down the drain to implement GWP. (Heritage Foundation)Therefore I disagree.
Lets work on our immigration system in place now that lets in 2 million people into the USA annually and legally.

My question" What to do in the event of a recession or depression?
May 22, 2007

1:34 PM

David (R) writes:

Ben -

I would not support full citizenship - no way. Even at 2 million a year, it is far too many and needs to be reduced to 1964 levels (1/2 million?) I would also not support full benefits, as in social security, medicare, etc. - at least not at this time. If we can verify that a net benefit would result from it, then let's consider it.

To me, it boils down to creating a true "guest worker" system, that is no different than our oil guys going to Saudi in the 70's to build pipelines, drilling stations and rigs, etc. When the work was over, they were expected to leave. When I worked on the Trans-Alaska pipeline in the mid-70's, and the project was done, they expected me to leave to make room for locals to fill jobs, and that is a US state!

There are times in our economy that industry needs reliable, affordable, and plentiful labor - of this there is no doubt. When our unemployment rate in the late 90's was under 4%, fast food joints in Vail, Aspen, and other mountain towns were having to pay $12+ an hour for burger flippers. At the high end, and Jay could probably validate this, I was able to get $120k a year for a job that would rightly pay about $75k to $85k in telecomm. I've since converted from a contractor and thus the higher pay, but competition can end up hurting people at times.
May 22, 2007

2:57 PM

Ezekiel writes:

I think we need to:

1. build a really big fence along the Mexican border.
2. round up the illegals.
3. make them pay us back taxes and costs for their stay.
4. deport every one of them
5. shoot anyone who crosses over after that point. We're a sovereign nation and have every right to defend our borders from invaders. These people are invaders, coming here to take jobs from Americans and send the money back to their "familias" in Mexico.

We cannot win with this do-nothing Congress and red-coat Republicans.

Make no mistake about it. This is going to get ugly fast, and I'm not waiting to put my arms at the ready to enact the authority granted us.

God bless America!
May 22, 2007

3:04 PM

jay writes:

WOW

I think a few of you somehow got on the wrong website, Ezekiel included.

I think you people were looking for something more along these lines:

htttp://www.stormfront.org
May 22, 2007

3:50 PM

shaggy writes:

jay,
You have throw out a couple of White Supremacy comments in the last couple days.
What Race are you if you don`t mind me asking?
No it doesn`t matter, just curious.
May 22, 2007

4:46 PM

jay writes:

The fact that you asked speaks volumes shaggy. I'm a color blind white man that is just as disgusted as anyone of any color should be when I read posts condoning violence and hatred against their fellow man.
May 22, 2007

5:01 PM

Anonymous writes:

David (R)

The Dems are not saying that they will stop amnesty the GOP is. The GOP can veto this crap and they are not. They can also filibuster it but they are just sitting on their hands. The Democrats have a plan but they have not said what the GOP has so how can I hold them accountable? The Democrats have had some form of worker program from the beginning and they are staying true to their plan. I don’t agree with it but they are staying with the plan. I guess it is not as important as tax breaks for rich people.
May 22, 2007

5:03 PM

GOP SOLD!!! writes:

David (R)

The Dems are not saying that they will stop amnesty the GOP is. The GOP can veto this crap and they are not. They can also filibuster it but they are just sitting on their hands. The Democrats have a plan but they have not said what the GOP has so how can I hold them accountable? The Democrats have had some form of worker program from the beginning and they are staying true to their plan. I don’t agree with it but they are staying with the plan. I guess it is not as important as tax breaks for rich people to the GOP.
May 22, 2007

5:24 PM

shaggy writes:

jay,
You sounded as though you were offened by my asking what Ethnic background you are.
I hope it isn`t your oppinion that anyone who even asks what someones heritage is, is a Racist.
May 22, 2007

5:35 PM

David (R) writes:

GOP SOLD -

I guess I'm not really following the point you're trying to make, but let me suggest that one of the main reasons either, or both, parties would seem to want to placate the Hispanics over this issue, is votes, plain and simple. Those that secure the votes, own the gold(power), and those with the gold make the rules.

The party who seems the least "resistant" to creating the most illegal-alien friendly environment will be supported heavily by the majority of people in that group regardless of whether or not they are citizens. As far as vetoing anything, only the president can do that, and he has shown that he prefers to kiss the ass of Mexico's president rather than stand up to him and tell him that we will make and enforce laws that are for the good of our country. Whether or not there is enough GOP support in the Congress to stop a bill remains to be seen. Senator McCain, among others from the GOP have been all supportive of this bill, in direct opposition to hundreds of thousands of his constiuents (as reported in the Arizona Republic), and nobody can figure out why.

Clearly, we must agree to do something that is as fair to all parties involved as is possible. My main concern is that we pass legislation, illegals laugh at it and do what they please anyway, and there isn't funding or manpower to enforce things. And Ben raises a very valid question about what happens in a down employment market - is it really fair for illegals to hold jobs when citizens are out of work and would be willing to do them?

Also, as someone pointed out yesterday, in response to an op/ed piece that I posted the link for, the "rich" don't pay taxes anyway, so who cares? And what exactly defines "rich" anyway? My household makes about $150k a year - is that "rich"? By Mexico's standards, yes, it is. By Luxemburg's, it's not even close. But between you and me, I kind of feel like people who think I'm escaping paying my "fair share" somehow need to understand that when I pay a combined $55K a year in federal and state taxes, I think I've done my part. That doesn't include all of the multiple taxations, like sales tax charged when I've already paid tax on that money - or all the crap they zing you for on the cell phone and home phone bills. Then add property taxes, auto taxes, and at least 20 other taxes charged on different things, and it's no stretch to say that I pay more than 50% of income to taxes, and a lot of other "rich" people do too. Very few of those earning below $40k a year will pay much - and maybe the number is higher or lower, I'm not sure. I just know there is a breaking point somewhere, and something has to change soon.
May 22, 2007

5:59 PM

jay writes:

I wasn't offended in the least shaggy...just commenting on what it means about your world view.
May 22, 2007

6:21 PM

shaggy writes:

I`m glad, but I think you meant my world viewed as your world sees it.
That is not the world I live in.
I`ll bet it has something to do with the Parallel Universe Theory.
May 22, 2007

6:31 PM

jay writes:

lol...I'm not the one qualifying a viewpoint based on the color of skin of the holder.
May 22, 2007

7:04 PM

shaggy writes:

I didn`t have to qualify anything,
I just asked a Q and you felt the need to expell on it.
We have several diff. Ethnic people working for us. Same pay as anyone else that works for us.

I look for the most Qualified person for the job, as I am sure you do as well, having to know the nature of your Business.
May 22, 2007

7:07 PM

jay writes:

Whatever rationalization helps you sleep at night.
May 22, 2007

7:15 PM

shaggy writes:

Happy Dreams
May 22, 2007

8:01 PM

Anonymous writes:

jay .... looks to me like you've misread the situation ... there's nothing wrong with shaggy pointing out that some of your comments could have been construed to carry a somewhat biased note, and you took it the wrong way .... not that you flew off the handle or anything, but it's incorrect to assume a certain tack when it doesn't seem to have been targeted that way .... just my opinion
May 22, 2007

8:39 PM

jay writes:

And my observation still stands.

shaggy's world is not colorblind

My other observations regarding the similarities between the self-described anti-immigration/white separatist movement and white supremacist movement are also valid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_separatist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_supremacist

It is amazing how many groups and people are listed under both definitions in wiki. Well...amazing, but not surprising.

It is also not surprising at all to me that both ben and shaggy have asked me what color I am this week...because as I've noted...neither of them live in a colorblind world...at least ben had the intellectual honesty to admit it.
May 22, 2007

8:56 PM

shaggy writes:

jay,
Do you remember when you asked the Q for anyone to answer about the difference between a Separatise and a Supremacist and someone answered?
You agreed with that Answer.
That was me.
One wants their homeland to be dominated by whites.
The other believes in white supremacy.
They are also undeniably intertwined.
May 22, 2007

9:05 PM

jay writes:

Again...whatever rationalization helps you sleep better at night

have a good evening
May 22, 2007

9:07 PM

shaggy writes:

I guess you are calling me a superseperatemacist.
May 22, 2007

9:29 PM

shaggy writes:

Its been fun for a twist.
You have a good night as well:)
May 22, 2007

9:58 PM

Ben writes:

"It is also not surprising at all to me that both ben and shaggy have asked me what color I am this week...because as I've noted...neither of them live in a colorblind world...at least ben had the intellectual honesty to admit it."
jay

I must have missed this admission. Whatever helps you sleep better at night jay.
May 22, 2007

10:19 PM

shaggy writes:

LOL, I was wating for when you were going to chime in Ben:)

sshhoosshh,
jays sleeping and and it is quiet around here for once.
He was actually being cordial to me tonight in his usual way:)
May 22, 2007

10:44 PM

shaggy writes:

08:01 PM ,
TY for backing me:)
Create a name, you are very observant.
Let us all know which alias you choose.
May 23, 2007

8:37 AM

JW writes:

"My household makes about $150k a year - is that "rich"?"

David (R),

That whole "the rich dont pay taxes" thing was probably me. The answer to your question is...NO. You are Middle Middle class. Making $150 k doesnt even get you into Upper Middle class.

The people Im talking about when I say the rich dont pay INCOME taxes are those that are actually rich. The live in big ass houses. They dont pay income because...they dont have JOBS. What they do have is a SHIT LOAD of investment $$$$. They live off that, which is why they pay only Capital Gains, not Income.

Capital Gains is not "No Taxes" by any means. But compared to what you have to pay its total bullshit. Here is the explanation....

You pay what, a third of your Income of $150 k a year in income tax? Little bit over I guess (you said you paid $55k in income tax).

Lets use Bill Gates as an example of "Rich" (keep in mind, Bill is a class guy. He may not pay much in taxes, but he forks out TONS in charity).

My Dad likes to talk about how much Bill makes a minuet, or an hour, or whatever. He knows the formulas, but for the sake of arguement, lets say Bill makes 50 million a year on his investments (not really. He makes that every week probably).

So if Bill makes 50 million off his investment, and hes a rich guy living off that investment, how much does he pay in taxes? NOTHING. Not a single penny...unless he cashes it out.

If Bill is living off that $50 million, and cashes out the entire ammount...well then he would pay taxes on the entire ammount, just like you do on your entire income. But that doesnt happen. Bill takes out maybe 10 million a year. He pays taxes on that 10 million.

Which leaves him with $40 million, untaxed, and making him MORE money.

The fairtax is the only way Ive seen to deal with this imballance. Everyone pays taxes on whatever they buy, period. Gives you total control of what you want to pay in taxes, and since rich people usually buy more expensive shit...they pay more. They dont HAVE to though. Bill can drive a Ford Focus and pay the same taxes on it as you or I would. Probably not gona happen though...

When politicians say "we are going to switch the income tax burden to the rich" what they are really saying is "We are going to fuck the upper middle and middle middle classes." When they jack up capital gains, they fuck everyone from the middle middle who invest, to the rich, though the rich can afford it better than the middle middle.

All in all, our tax system SUCKS. Its based on Communist ideology, and the fucking thing CANNOT be tweaked in a way that makes it fair.

FAIRTAX babY!

www.fairtax.org
May 23, 2007

9:20 AM

jay writes:

Ben's response to my asking why he wanted to know what color I am:

"Wake up, race in anything is ubiquitous. IT DRIVES IT ALL. Growing up a white minority in my community and then seeing white people my age being indoctrinated into the "cult of multiculturalism""...

He goes on for a while saying that I was brainwashed into said "cult" by getting a "liberal" college education...typical right wingnut stuff...but at least I respected him for admitting that race obviously plays an HUGE part of his world view. I think it was this topic or another that he started going on about a "civil war" between the races...at that point I suggested he speak about his feelings with someone with some letters behind their names and stay away from clocktowers....but again...at least he is honest about how he feels. I may not agree with him, but when he's called out about it, he owns up to it...unlike some others who attempt the ol' shell game.
May 23, 2007

9:45 AM

Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:

Mexico represents 1.6% of the world. Why if we are looking for diversity in this country do they deserve to be 9% of the population of the US? Why are immigrants from other countries not being given the same chance to come in and improve this country?
May 23, 2007

10:08 AM

Ben writes:

jay, Thanks for your concern.
I'll speak with my wife, she has her Doctorate in Organizational Psychology. She also turns in diverse circles all over the United States and soon internationally. She was a white minority in her community as well so........ well, she has a clue of what is going on with this topic.
May 23, 2007

10:45 AM

jay writes:

Ben...I was speaking about someone who has the ability to prescribe drugs...not streamline an HR dept....
May 23, 2007

11:33 AM

Ben writes:

No drugs for me. I better give her the correct props. Phd. in Industrial/Organizational Pyschology and owner and CEO of the firm. I would talk with her, but it is against ethos. Could you recomend someone? Perhaps Dr Timothy Leary, Dr. Ruth , Dr Zuess, Dr.Pepper?

She will staighten out your HR for sure, or beyond. I would be able to translate for the illegal aliens that you use for slave labor as well. Well no, skip that last part.
May 23, 2007

11:41 AM

Ben writes:

jay,
I take that back, Here is a free sample of my translation services. May want to memorize it.

¿Estás en los estados unidos legalmente?
May 23, 2007

11:45 AM

jay writes:

Hey, just as long as you know that your wife's credentials don't make her qualified as a therapist...you're going to need someone with a different type of background for that. I encourage you to seek counseling if you feel that violence is the only solution left for someone from your end of the political spectrum. Just one guy talking.
May 23, 2007

12:01 PM

Ben writes:

"just one guy talking" jay

and apparently one guy smoking dope on his lunch hour from the slave labor brokerage firm.

My girl is as qualified as one can get in the field. If your lucky you may get to revolve in her circle one day. In the mean time, don't pout jay.
May 23, 2007

12:05 PM

jay writes:

LOL...you must not know much about I/O psychology if you believe its practice makes one qualified to be a mental health therapist...they are two completely separate disciplines within psychology.
May 23, 2007

12:27 PM

Ben writes:

Like I said, she is as qualified as they get, this includes being qualified as a mental health therapist and an I/O psych.
¿No puedes comprender otra vez?
May 23, 2007

12:33 PM

shaggy writes:

DENVER — "Law enforcement agencies say they followed policies and proceedures, but an illegal alien, accused of sexually assaulting a nine year-old Denver girl, was still able to post a bond and flee the country.

The man, who called himself Manuel Flores, was arrested February 15 and accused of raping and sodomizing his girlfriend’s daughter. According to police documents, he was not able to provide a Social Security number or driver’s license. When he was booked into the Denver Jail, he told Officers he was born in Moralos, Mexico.

A Sheriff’s Department spokesman says they alerted federal immigration officials that Flores might be an illegal alien, but ICE apparently did not put an immigration hold on him. Judge Andrew Armatas set as $35,000 bond, which legal observers say is low for someone suspected of seuxally assaulting a child. But before prosecutors had a chance to argue for a higher bond, Flores put up the $3500 dollars necessary to bond out, and fled to Mexico.

Bounty hunter James Ness discovered Flores real name and tracked him to his hometown in Mexico. Ness says he provided the information to prosecutors, but there is no move to bring the suspect back to the United States. Ness says he thinks this case fell through the cracks, but he adds, “But the crack is huge. A lot of people fall into that crack.”

ICE and the Judge did not respond to Fox31 calls. The Denver Sheriff’s Department says they report roughly 20 suspected illegal aliens under arrest to ICE each day. But the federal agency typically puts holds on only two or three. "

Isn`t it funny that the RMN and the Denver Post elected not to print this story!
They would rather show us about troops dying or do another spread on the wrestlers. I think that makes it what 10 front page storys on these two.
I wonder if Tina G or Diane C or Mike L ect..... will write a column about this Illegal.
I doubt it also.
May 23, 2007

1:54 PM

Children should comes first not boyfriends writes:

Shaggy I have seen the story on Fox 31 news. There was another man involved also.What was done to the 9 year old was horrible and both illegals will probably get away with it.

Here's my problem. The mother claims she wants justice,as she should.She has claimed this has taken a heavy financial toll on her family.She has asked and Fox News has asked for contributions to help her family get help for her daughter and pay expenses to live because she either has lost her job or is missing too much work because of her daughter's needs,I forget which is the case.

Then I see her again complaining about the Prosecutor and Judge scheduling hearings and trial date during the summer. She is mad because they want to go to Disneyland.

I have been looking into going to Disneyland and it is going to cost quite a bit of money.

What is she asking for money for if she can afford to go to Disneyland?

Is it more important to get justice for her daughter and get these 2 creeps of the streets for a long time? Or is it more important to go to Disneyland?

Don't even get me started on the fact that one of these guys was her boyfriend.I won't go there.That in itself makes me angry.

This child is stuck in the middle of a failed immigration policy on criminals and a mother who is not real bright and is not really looking out for her daughter.
Just her being in a relationship with a illegal alien puts her child in harms way.

It's a sad fact that in the Mexican culture they think it's okat to have sex with young girls.
May 23, 2007

2:36 PM

shaggy writes:

Children should comes first not boyfriends,

I missed it on the News, if I hadn`t been listening to Peter B on the way in I would have never heard about it.
I`m sure alot of people havent heard about it.
I know the News and Post heard about it and obviously elected to not write about due to there stance on Illegal Immigrants.
Where are all these womens rights groups crying out for Justice?
If this would have been a Legal Immigrant there probably would have been no bail at all and the womens rights group would all over this case.

The News and Post both due several spreads on the hardships the Illegals have to endure but never the real issues the Illegals cause such as Hospital Closers, jail overcrowding, theft, violent crimes ect.........
They even pay Tina Griegos for a whole year to sympathize with the Illegals that she was so proud of .
I would be will ing to bet there was only a handfull of people reading it except for the illegals and sympathizers.
May 23, 2007

4:41 PM

Ben writes:

http://www.immigrationwatchdog.com/?p=3812
May 23, 2007

5:50 PM

GOP SOLD!!! writes:

David (R)

You make 150 grand a year? And you act like you are middle class. No wonder you are so out of touch. Reagan gave amnesty now Bush is doing the same. How about a GOP with a spine requesting that Bush fund and enforces the LAW. Giving lawbreakers benefits suck, and nine dollars to work on an oil rig in Oklahoma is bullshit unless you live in Mexico. Instead of all this making crap up how about just making what they have work.
May 23, 2007

6:40 PM

shaggy writes:

Children ,
"Then I see her again complaining about the Prosecutor and Judge scheduling hearings and trial date during the summer. She is mad because they want to go to Disneyland."

Sounds like this Woman has some other issues as well.
I think I heard Peter say that she was the one who posted his bond, not sure though.
Might be more to this story.
I`ll have to look on the Web to get more info.
Or wait for Tina to write about it tomorrow, I`m sure she is working on it as I type:)
May 24, 2007

7:25 AM

Children should comes first not boyfriends writes:

Shaggy, I don't know all the facts of this case. I have seen about 3 interviews with this mother. From the 1st interview something didn't smell right.
By the 3rd ,I knew this mother was not putting her child 1st and is definately not mother of the year.
I would like to see Social Services get involved and be an advocate for the child. She needs lots of counseling right now .Not a mother complaining her court date is going to interfere with a trip to Disneyland and asking the public for money.

If you get anymore info on this case pass it along. This just doesn't pass the smell test for me. I want to see someone step in for the 9 year old,because I don't think the mother is really looking out for her correctly.
May 24, 2007

9:30 AM

shaggy writes:

The Rocky has four full spreads on sympathy for Illegals this morning and not even a mention of the Illegal rapist that fled.

What a biased paper.
Unbelievable
I thought news agency were suppose to get both sides out?
Guess not.
I`ll have to go to other news outlets to get more info on this because I won`t find it here in Temples paper.
May 24, 2007

4:51 PM

Ben writes:

The Rocky Mountain Mexican News.
May 24, 2007

7:40 PM

shaggy writes:

I`m suprised they don`t print a Spanish version or do they?

Better not give them suggestions:)
May 25, 2007

6:56 AM

Pam writes:

This country was lied to in 1965 and in 1986 when Amensty was granted for the illegal aliens, and the only part of both bills that were fullfilled was the Amensty. The border was never secured and business hiring illegal aliens were never enforced. Now here we are 2007 with the government wanting to reward 12-20 million illegal aliens for breaking every immigration law on the books. Oh, by the way do know who was involved in the first two amensties, yep Kennedy. Wake up Americans, stand up and quit allowing Kennedy and the others to shove this up your butt. Bush and this administration are selling out every hardworking American Citizen, quit complaining and start calling, writing, emailing your government officials and demand that this insanity be stopped. Make the illegal aliens go home and apply for Citizenship correctly just like every legal immigrant in the past has done.
May 25, 2007

8:34 AM

David (R) writes:

JW -

I'm totally with you on the fair tax. In fact, I had a short but quality dialog with some folks about it and they main concern they have is that it will cause large reductions in consumption of new products.

If rampant consumerism is considered a significant problem because of impacts on the environment and numerous natural resources, reductions would likely be a good thing from that perspective. It's very difficult to tell business owners that though, because Toyota, GM, et al, want these people to buy that new car every year or two. But imagine what it would do to the used car market, or the used house market.

By the way, I totally agree with the statement you made about 150k a year not being in upper middle class. We've lived in this 5br, 3ba, 2600sf house since 91 when I bought it for under 100k. I've taken money out to make major improvements of about another 120k over the years, such as finish the basement, upgrade the kitchen and upstairs baths, re-carpet or tile, replace all the windows, add a 3rd garage and build a wood-working shop. I pay extra to principle every month so it totals a $2k payment. With 3 kids, college for 2, their cars, the regular bills (no credit cards and no car payments), it is tough to make ends meet sometimes. I have to marvel at folks we know who make maybe 50 or 60k a year, and are making an even higher house payment - I just don't know how they're doing it, or how my kids are going to afford a home.
May 25, 2007

8:40 AM

Anonymous writes:

We shouldn't be thinking about differences, but rather our similarities. We shouldn't be building walls, but rather bridges. We shouldn't be passing laws, but rather finding ways to welcome.
May 25, 2007

9:05 AM

David (R) writes:

GOP SOLD -

I understand where you're coming from. Yes, between me and my wife, that's about what we make now, both having been in our fields for more than 30 years each. But I can tell you that in many respects we were actually much better off when we were just living off my salary. Why?

Well, because our tax burden was about $3500 in federal then, and about $1500 in state. When my wife went back to work and we shifted into the higher tax bracket, we started paying near a third in federal and state, so proportionately we are paying FAR more in taxes and keeping less. When you add the increased cost of living now as opposed to then, we have actually lost buying power - everyone has.

There's an old saying: It's not how much you make, it's how much you keep.

Of course, it's natural to think that if you make more, you'll be able to keep more. But when you shift into a 30-some percent take rate from a 7 or 8%, the unfairness of the progressive tax system really hits home.
May 25, 2007

9:11 AM

shaggy writes:

08:40 AM,
You absolutley are the most idiotic person I have ever heard speak.

Hey lets open up the Borders so we can be a poversh 3rd world Country like Mexico.
My god you need an education.
Yea thats what we need, more uneducated people like yourself here to totally delete the welfare system.
Your logic is, oh life is so beutifull, everone should have 15 children that they can`t support and live off the Government errrrr tax payers.
I would be ashamed to post a name as well if I were a total idiot.
I`m sorry ,I should be nice as the weekend is nearing but , my god you need to understand what Illegal immigration is doing to this Country.
Do me a favor before my head explodes and watch this 14 mimute video.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4094926727128068265&q=%22numbers+usa%22&hl=en
May 25, 2007

9:15 AM

Anonymous writes:

Shaggy -
What happened to you to make you so hostile? You really need to travel more and see just how lucky we are to live in the US. Who are we to deny that to others.

You really need to meet some immigrants. You will find them to be hardworking, intelligent people who have a deep cultural history and wealth of experiences. Our world is faqr the richer for their presence in it.
May 25, 2007

9:41 AM

shaggy writes:

09:15 AM,
You know , your right, I`ll meet you down at any Hospital and we can wait in line for all the Illegals to get free service at our $$$$.
Grab your wallet and a credit card, it is going to be a long day!!
We can also stop by the closed hospitals that have been closed due to the Illegals.
Or should we meet at any Jail and see who the Majority of the criminals there are.( again we pay for that)
We could could also go to any Business that has to compete with other businesses that use Illegal help and see if we win the bid.
After that we can go down to the welfare office and see who is getting all of our hard earned handouts.
Hey i know what, we can go down by federal and pecos and look at these hard working people and see just how they are assimulating here and just how they are turning that area into thier own little mexico.
Where else would you like to go?
Hey i know , how about our schools, oh my god don`t even get me going on this one.
I have a full tank of gas but that won`t even come close for us to take a good look at these hard working people that come here to better themselves at our expense.
May 25, 2007

9:42 AM

Anonymous writes:

'Who are we to deny that to others.'

LOL. HAHAHAHA. LOL LOL LOL. ROFLMFAO!!!!! LOL LOL. HAHAHAHA HAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. LOL!!

WHEW!! That's a good one.

Not one other country in the world that I know of allows uncontrolled numbers from any nation to just move it. Not the US, not any European nation, not Australia, Japan, or even Mexico.

America is successful and prosperous because of the diversity of its' people, their unswerving devotion to invention and innovation, and the blessing of many natural resources and access to energy. But it's clearly assinine to think that you can just open the doors to the untold millions that would come in, and it wouldn't greatly undermine the standard of living for all.

Now, take those rose-colored glasses off and go have a weekend.
May 25, 2007

9:48 AM

shaggy writes:

Do yourself a favor and watch the video I posted below and then let me know if you still want open borders.
May 25, 2007

9:59 AM

shaggy writes:

09:42 AM.
Someone trying to sneak into Mexico, expecially an American will never be seen again.
The problem with these bleeding hearts help the world kind of people is that they are just flattly naive and don`t understand what is going on.
Yet when harsh language is used to get their attention they call you a Racist, no I`m not racist, I am an American and want to protect this Country.
If they want to come here Legally, I`ll be the first one to take them out for an American Budweiser.
They don`t want that though, they don`t want to fit in, they want to change us to the way they want things.
Ohh, they don`t ask, they demand.
May 25, 2007

10:04 AM

Anonymous writes:

Shaggy, I don't know what is worse, your racism or your ignorance.

Mexicans are a hardworking, intelligent people. The reason why they avoid hospital bills is that people like you deny them the best jobs. Hence the crime and dropout rates result. You are to blame for their plight. Get to know some immigrants and you will see that they are a deep people, whose cultural history enriches us all. Viva!
May 25, 2007

10:12 AM

shaggy writes:

Get to know some immigrants

I see them everyday at Taco bell when I spend twenty minutes trying to explain my order in English to an Immigrant that was born here and has yet to learn our Language.
May 25, 2007

10:18 AM

Anonymous writes:

Shaggy, if it si such an ordeal, learn some Spanish. It is a beautiful language. If you were not so racist, you might see that.
May 25, 2007

10:23 AM

David (R) writes:

10:04 -

Nobody said they weren't (mostly) good and hard working people. I know many of them, and would agree. That said, if they're here without having followed the process for legal entry, they're breaking the law.

None of your "let's join hands and sing the Buy the World A Coke" song will remove the negative impacts of illegal immigrants. Terrific job of blaming the plight of poor illegals on Shaggy though - it's the sort of logic-shift that politicians, illegals, and lawyers use with great success. Damn you Shaggy - this whole thing is your fault.
May 25, 2007

11:02 AM

shaggy writes:

I`m sorry,
I live in America, we speak English here.
If I were to move to any Country in the world, the first thing I would do is learn the Native Language,
I would feel obligated to do that.
May 25, 2007

11:11 AM

shaggy writes:

Hey Dave,
Just thought I would stir it up a little this morning, have a good weekend. lol
May 25, 2007

11:26 AM

shaggy writes:

I love how people call you a Racist when we want our existing laws enforced.

Hey no name, please watch the video I posted below, it is not racial in any means, it just explains what will happen if we don`t control our border.
May 25, 2007

12:23 PM

Anonymous writes:

Poll: Most Americans can't point to America on map.
May 25, 2007

4:50 PM

Ben writes:

New York Times/CBS poll. I stopped reading after I read that. They are in the tank., liberal manure, as are their sheep who vote in the polls. No wonder no one watches CBS or reads the New York Times anymore. RMN you are next.
12 people put this bill together LOL.
May 25, 2007

6:16 PM

Ben writes:

Fifty-six percent of Colorado residents polled, including fifty-nine percent of Hispanics, believe employers should be "severely penalized" for hiring illegal aliens.
The Denver Post/Mason-Dixon Polling and Research, July 12-13, 2006
May 25, 2007

6:31 PM

shaggy writes:

Well said Ben,
I`m sure it is a real accurate poll with just their Liberal based followers voting on it.
I wonder why they wouldn`t let Tancredo on the reform bill committee, he asked and even went down there but was turned away.
I have just had it with all the crap in Politics and the one sided media.
The RMN only prints sympathy 4 page spreads of the hardships the Illegals go thru not how they are destroying our society as a whole, Hospitals, schools, welfare, jails, wages, violent crimes ect......
May 25, 2007

8:18 PM

momma y writes:

Since the libs hate Wal-Mart maybe we can pass a bill punishing employers and call it a Wal-mart attack bill and finally get the employers to pay fines for hiring illegals. The people of Colorado can use a ballot initiative to pass laws making illegal hiring too expensive and risky to try. High fines and loss of all state contracts are needed. I'm going to start writing it now. Give me your ideas and I'll start the process.
May 25, 2007

9:17 PM

Ben writes:

I would gladly pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today.

Wimpy
May 26, 2007

8:41 AM

David Hakala writes:

So most Americans are reasonable people who can see grey and deal with reality. But the biggest donors to both political parties are insane clown posses who just gotta have it exactly their way or no way.

The usual.
May 26, 2007

2:54 PM

It's clear to me writes:

When poll designers start asking the question of what Americans want out of immigration reform WITHOUT limiting the choices for answers, we will get a better idea of the real sentiment out there, not the crap our liberal media would like us to believe.

It is a fact that when the choices include attrition through law enforcement and not granting amnesty to illegal aliens, the majority of those polled agree that this is the preferred course. Too many other polls make respondents choose between mass deportation and amnesty - false choices - which is to avoid the real discussion that so many in the liberal press and illegal immigrant supporters don't want to touch with a ten foot pole.

This is telling. The very reason the "polls" avoid posing the questions this way is because they wish to color the results and further the grand deception. Not to worry though. The truth is starting to come out thanks to the brave cable news sources that choose to ignore the shouts of racism from the scared-sh*tless pro-illegal immigrant factions and report the results of polls that reveal the growing majority of Americans who wisely refuse to repeat the mistakes of all the previous amnesties.

Congress really does think that the voters are stupid. Why else would they insist that their plan is not amnesty?
May 26, 2007

3:19 PM

Matt Polger writes:

Occam's Razor agrees - the simplest choice is most likely the correct choice.
Attrition Through Enforcement would not cost the taxpayer more than was originally budgeted to enforce the existing laws on the books. We already paid for it once.
If there are no jobs for illegal aliens they will gradually leave to take up the overdue battle with their home country's government to give them jobs, free education, and free healthcare like they were getting in America. Don't fool yourselves - America knows that this is the best choice given the history that has brought us to this point (again).
May 28, 2007

1:10 PM

Kay writes:

FYI: Tucson Channel Four news reported today - It costs the government (us) $6 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR IN MEDICAL EXPENSES FOR ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS NEEDING HEALTH CARE.

A VOTE FOR THIS IMMIGRATION BILL IS A VOTE AGAINST THE AMERICAN PEOPLE AND THEIR FAMILIES.
May 28, 2007

3:27 PM

Anonymous writes:

6 billion dollars??
Wow thats what we are getting upset about?

What about 250 Billion dollars we are pouring into Iraq? Or the 1 trillion dollars we are going to spend if we stay there 10 years?

250 billion is alot more than 6 thats for sure!!!
May 28, 2007

3:45 PM

Pepe writes:

How about the $2.5 trillion U.S. taxpayers will shell out to get these illegal aliens legal under this bs bill for starters.
May 28, 2007

4:06 PM

Ebeneezer writes:

I gotta better idea
lets just forget the whole thing.

Lets get out of Iraq too.

Save money
May 29, 2007

12:12 PM

Why even bother? writes:

Previous civilizations were destroyed from within. Why should this one be any different?
South America, Central America and Mexico laugh at us while they continue to weaken us politically. Our politicians try to placate the rest of the world while giving away our wealth. You voted for them you can live with 'em.

Oh, no need to lower any US flags to half mast. We can no longer afford quality flag poles so the ones we do have are shorter so they won't blow over. Thus, half mast.
I'll be worm food soon....good luck fools.
May 29, 2007

12:13 PM

BobZ writes:

You importing poverty from Mexico. Who will take care of the mass of people invading our country from Mexico when they are too old to work? The American taxpayer.
May 29, 2007

9:24 PM

Salazar the Racist writes:

When will the Denver Post accurately report poll results? The great deception continues.... Ken Salazar's congressional office is reporting that people (constituents) are phoning and faxing to the tune of 60% against the immigration "fix" he supports. Now most senators would adjust their positions based on the majority opinion of the people they represent, unless you are a racial politician hell-bent on riding your own agenda.

This inexperienced senator in not going to remain in Washington long enough to learn that lesson.
May 29, 2007

9:44 PM

Attrition Through Enforcement writes:

The beauty of Attrition by Enforcement is that the laws needed to support this action are already on the books and funded - or at least they were funded and then ignored. Nevertheless, it is the only rational and realistic solution to stopping the cycles of amnesty and illegal immigration.

Let's try to help these determined foreign nationals return to their homes and force their governments to support them the way we have. The message that illegal immigrants and their illegal employers will no longer be able to steal from the American taxpayer will be loud and clear.

May 25, 2007 9:33 AM

Polls: most Americans favor compromise on immigration reform

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