July 3, 2007 9:41 AM
No peace in the park
Is a bib a placard? Does the presence of reporters constitute a public demonstration? Those are the weighty issues considered by Rocky Mountain National Park officials who stopped a pair of young peace marchers from entering the park last Sunday.
The American Civil Liberties Union is crying foul in the case of the peaced-out pair who are walking from California to New York to promote their cause, reports Fernando Quintero.
Rocky Mountain National Park officials violated the Constitution when they blocked two peace activists from entering, a lawyer claimed Monday.The two California teens, Ashley Casale, 19, and Mark Israel, 18, whose T-shirts said "March 4 Peace," are walking to New York to promote their cause. When they tried to get in the park on Sunday morning, rangers detained them and told them they needed a permit.
Mark Silverstein, legal director for the American Civil Liberties Union of Colorado, said the teens' First Amendment rights were violated. "To say to two persons who happen to be carrying a message as they walk through the park that they're carrying on a demonstration that requires a permit is ridiculous," Silverstein said.
Park officials said they were following regulations.
Casale said a park ranger took the pair's identifications then took nearly three hours to determine they were in violation of park rules that require permits for "public assemblies, meetings, gatherings, demonstrations, parades and other public expressions of views."Park spokeswoman Kyle Patterson said park logs show the pair arrived at the west gate entrance at 9:04 a.m. and headed into the park at 10:15 a.m. She said the two students were accompanied by two reporters.
"They had placards. They had reporters with them. They were promoting their Web site. It became a public demonstration and public expression," Patterson said, adding that the group was planning on walking up Trail Ridge Road, which raised safety concerns.
As a compromise with park officials, the teens removed their bibs and wrote their message on their T-shirts.
No litigation is predicted
July 3, 2007
10:41 AM
Elwood writes:
They should thank the park rangers for making a fuss, otherwise who would know about their protest/message.
July 3, 2007
1:20 PM
Michael writes:
Elwood - Exactly. I would bet that they were aware of the rule about "public assemblies, meetings, gatherings, demonstrations, parades and other public expressions of views" needing a permit in RMNP and they pushed it - knowing they would get press and the ACLU would be there. This is what these people do for sport and entertainment. While the rest of us hunt, fish, camp, ski, play tennis, travel, garden, collect stamps, read, and watch movies, these people need to feel like they are making a difference when all they are doing is annoying the rest of us.
July 3, 2007
2:22 PM
Razorback writes:
Michael,
That is fairly shortsighted. Are you seriously saying that if you and a freind showed up to camp in t-shirts sporting your favorite candidate, then you would constitute a "gathering" requiring a permit? I would think you were just a couple of guys in t-shirts that happened to be political in nature. Perhaps two guys in Rolling Stones t-shirts then constitute a "gathering" of Rolling Stones demonstrators.
Ridiculous. These boys happen to be wearing t-shirts with a message you disagree with (peace, thats fairly ironic) and so you neglect to be offended when your fellow Americans have their rights neglected. Should they have been in "Support the Troops" shirts, no doubt you would be up in arms.
I am offended by this...bullshit. I would be equally offended had these boys been in "Support the Troops" shirts. They are Americans. They are entitled to their right of freedom of speech, and to call two people going camping a "Gathering" or "Demonstration" is rank madness, or in this case, criminal discrimination.
July 3, 2007
4:42 PM
vegitatrians for peas writes:
All we are saying, is give peas a chance.
July 3, 2007
7:11 PM
David Hakala writes:
Razorback, you really should RTFA before you speak. This was not just two kids wearing t-shirts in a public park. It was a media event complete with sound trucks and cameramen entourage. That makes it a "public demonstration". More importantly, it was a safety hazard.
The Park Service goofed when it "compromised" by letting the kids proceed after transferring their political statements to their t-shirts from their picket signs. That focused attention on the free-speech non-issue instead of on the potential cost of rescuing a buncha dumbasses marching up Trail Ridge Road.
It was a great PR ploy, and the gummint wienies cooperated like the predictable, programmable droids they are.
July 4, 2007
7:04 AM
l scott writes:
Doesn't anyone understand the concept of FREEDOM anymore? We are about to celebrate our independence from tyranny, yet tyranny is what we practice and allow all around us. It's no wonder we have little left of our constitutionally gauranteed FREEDOMS left. We would all be better off practicing a little tolerance and respect. By silently allowing the trampling of these two kid's rights to trumpet peace you are giving license to someone else trampling your rights to speak on whatever you think is important. It's called free speach and it is part of what made America a different place to live than say China, communist Russia, , Iraq (under Sadaam) etc....
July 5, 2007
8:20 AM
It's True writes:
You are a real idiot stick Michael
July 5, 2007
2:19 PM
just sayin' writes:
While the rest of us hunt, fish, camp, ski, play tennis, travel, garden, collect stamps, read, and watch movies, these people need to feel like they are making a difference when all they are doing is annoying the rest of us.
Posted by Michael
Yes, please we would like to be free to not even think about the war and people dying. Goodness knows we can't be expected to stop our day to day playtime with inconvenient things to consider such as: is the war worthwhile?, were there real reasons for going to war? How many people are dying?..These are all things we simply don't have time to consider. These awful war protesters are bad for the collective conscience.
July 5, 2007
6:52 PM
Smokey the Bear writes:
It would have been cool if the park rangers would have roughed these kids up.
You know black-eye busted lip, lumps all over their heads.
July 5, 2007
6:56 PM
1st Amendment writes:
The ACLU is a piece of shit leftist organization. They should be sued for slander for having "American" in their name.
July 6, 2007
10:03 AM
history buff writes:
Interesting. The kids only have rights if they say what you want to here. What country you were you weirdos born in?
July 6, 2007
10:09 AM
It's True writes:
The ACLU has sued on behalf of extremists on both the right and the left. (The KKK to march in Illinois) The ACLU is there to protect all of us. Especially during the current Administration, I am happy that we have the ACLU.
July 6, 2007
10:18 AM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
just sayin,
I wonder when the war protestors from the 60s and 70s are going to pay for the genocide in Cambodia that they enabled?
July 6, 2007
10:23 AM
jay writes:
I'm dying to know how the war protesters trying to bring our troops home from Vietnam were responsible for the genocide in Cambodia.
July 6, 2007
10:37 AM
Michael writes:
"Yes, please we would like to be free to not even think about the war and people dying. Goodness knows we can't be expected to stop our day to day playtime with inconvenient things to consider such as: is the war worthwhile?, were there real reasons for going to war? How many people are dying?..These are all things we simply don't have time to consider. These awful war protesters are bad for the collective conscience." - just sayin'
YES, many of us would like certain places and areas where we can escape this display of selfishness and self importance. Maybe that is why RMNP has arequirement for a permit for "public assemblies, meetings, gatherings, demonstrations, parades and other public expressions of views." All of us do not want other people's opinions shoved down our throats when we go camping or hiking. I realize that is very selfish of me, but if you don't like it, FU!! How is that for "free speech"? We all know the importance of this war and the fact that people are dying for it - whether you support it or not. But that does not give anyone the absolute right to display their opinions wherever they want and to not recognize rules and regulations that have been put in place to allow ALL OF US a refuge from it once and while. So get off your high horse and stop screeching about these two poor little protesters. The world did not end or America come crashing down because they could not protest in OUR national park.
July 6, 2007
11:26 AM
Hogar De Vuelta (العودة) writes:
Posted by jay on July 6, 2007 10:23 AM
I'm dying to know how the war protesters trying to bring our troops home from Vietnam were responsible for the genocide in Cambodia.
‘The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.’
Edmund Burke
'Am I my brother's keeper?'
Cain
July 6, 2007
2:37 PM
jay writes:
I guess I was looking for something a little more concrete to back up such an allegation as serious as the one you made Hogar.
But then again...my expectations are often underserved by the far right...
July 7, 2007
3:09 PM
Johnson writes:
The facts are already set here. Please research all information on these two and see if they are really who they say they are. It sounds like another wolf in sheep's clothing - Who put these ideas in their heads?
July 7, 2007
11:02 PM
Robert Johnson writes:
This is not the first National Park through which the march has passed. On day one, we (I was there) marched through Golden Gate National Recreation Area, including the Presidio, and across the Golden Gate Bridge carrying a banner roughly 4 feet by 10 feet and two flags, 3 feet by 5 feet. See the website http://www.marchforpeace.info/ for a visual. There were a lot of people involved in this phase of the march, including press coverage. That was a demonstration. Two people walking while wearing marathon-runner size signs donated by a print shop back home hardly qualifies.
And wouldn't you know it - we were stopped by law enforcement that day. On the bridge with flags and banners flying in the stiff breeze a cruiser stopped and two uniformed men stepped out. They explained the potential safety hazard if the flags or banner distracted drivers whizzing by at 55 mph. They asked for a name and contact info of someone involved, asked us to put our distracting flags and banners away while on the bridge. Nothing about needing a permit or unlawful assembly. Five minute later we were back on our way. No hard feelings, no intimidation, no checking with superiors to see if they could find something to "get" us on.
Since then the march has passed through numerous federal lands, circled the California State Capitol as part of a huge memorial day protest led by Iraq War Veterans (did someone have a permit, I wonder?), passed right in front of the Nevada State Capitol, etc. for another 1200 miles before this incident occurred.
Yes, these two are who they claim to be. Yes, I am a friend and relative of these two. No, the incident at the RMNP was not planned or staged. And yes, it did a lot to increase their visibility, though I doubt RMNP personnel Li Li McGary or Jim Caretti intended this to happen.
July 9, 2007
7:30 AM
just sayin' writes:
Uh lets see, according to Mikey and Hogar, the Civil War was a bad idea but the Vietnam War was a good idea. What are you 2 putting together plastic models and sniffing the glue? As someone whose oldest brother was a Green Beret in Vietnam and was lucky enough that the draft was stopped just before I was eligible, I can say first hand that the Vietnam War was a bad idea. Over 50K dead Americans for no reason. Check out the documentary "The Fog of War" with Robert McNamara and open your mind.
July 9, 2007
8:53 AM
Scott writes:
NPS goofed on this one. They should have let the kiddies display their placards (1st Amendment). However, if the newsies were slowing down traffic, creating a hazard, etc., then confine them to B-roll shooting in a parking lot or some other safe area.
Scott